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okoban
February 15th, 2008, 04:20 PM
I made a quick analysis of current swimming world records of female and male swimmers and here are my findings: (50 LCM pool, 50,100,200 all styles including 200 IM, 400 free and IM, 800, 1500 free)

Female swimmers are 10.96 % slower on average
In 50, 100 and 200 events the differences are 11.9%, 11.5%, 11.3% respectively (more distance, less variance)
Largest gap is in 50 back (13.6%)
Smallest gap in 1500 free (7.8%)
Considering the average of 50, 100 and 200 of 4 events, largest gap is in backstroke (12.2%), butterfly (11.7%), free (11.4%) and breast (10.3%).In athletics, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1500 and 3000 track events, the gap is 10.43%. When I took out the incredible 100 of Florence G. Joyner, the gap is nearly the same as in the swimming (10.98%).
Lowest gap is in 100, with 7.7%, largest gap is in 800 with 12.0%, but most of the differences are between 10% and 12%.
What do you think?

Kurt Dickson
February 15th, 2008, 05:45 PM
"What do you think?"
1) Men are faster in all distances. 2) Interesting. 3) You got way too much time on your hands (come to think of it, maybe I do too).:wave:

quicksilver
February 15th, 2008, 07:14 PM
Re: Men are faster in short distances

For now. :)

Allen Stark
February 15th, 2008, 07:15 PM
Men have teststerone and therefore more muscle mass(except for a few doping females) so of course they will be faster,especially in sprints.I wonder if the breaststroke times were as close as they were because Liesel Jones is just so fast(1 1/2 sec ahead of the rest of the world in the 100 BR)

cowsvils
February 15th, 2008, 11:45 PM
It would probably amount to a couple percent difference if you took the two second best breaststrokers. I'm curious, for calculating strokes, did you just take the 100 yard/meter times, or did you take all the different lengths?

okoban
February 16th, 2008, 08:27 AM
I just took 50 LCM world records into consideration. 50,100,200 all styles including 200 IM, 400 free and IM, 800, 1500 free.
I think it is interesting that he largest gaps are in backstroke. It seems to me that butterfly needs more power. Maybe the reason is, butterfly needs a lot of body flexibility and women are more flexible.
It is also interesting to see that the gap is narrow in breaststroke. This style needs a lot of power. But, as well as I know breaststroke is the style that contribution of legs is most important. Can we conclude that womens' legs are powerful, making the gap narrower?

quicksilver
February 16th, 2008, 09:21 AM
Can we conclude that womens' legs are powerful, making the gap narrower?

OK...I'll bite. Not being a breaststroker...here's a theory.
It's a short axis stroke which involves frontal resistance.

Most men have a larger upper torso than the ladies...and therefore have more body mass to act as an obstacle to on coming water.

Women being a bit slighter (and not as top heavy) might have less surface area pushing on the water when they lunge forward...and therefore less drag from frontal resistance.

Thus the narrower gap in times for breaststroke events.

Ripple
February 16th, 2008, 09:26 AM
No real surprizes here, it's long been known that men are faster in the short distances and that the gap closes most of all in ultra-endurance type events. Women have held the overall record for the English Channel and other very long swims from time to time and may again. A runner named Ann Trason was overall winner of the 1994 Leadville 100 mile trail race, and a British cyclist named Beryl Burton, who had a very long and illustrious career, was the overall winner and new record setter for the British 12-hour cycling championship, in 1966 I think it was.
As for breast stroke, yes women have very strong legs, probably because we have to carry so much weight on them with pregnancy and childcare. The long and tedious aspects of childcare may explain the ability to do endurance events. Or maybe men just have short attention spans, poor things. :D :thhbbb:

Iwannafly
February 16th, 2008, 11:40 AM
A runner named Ann Trason was overall winner of the 1994 Leadville 100 mile trail race...
Ann Trason also held the 24 hour world record for many years and beat the men year after year in the 24 hour championships (for running that is).

SwimStud
February 16th, 2008, 11:57 AM
Or maybe men just have short attention spans, poor things. :D :thhbbb:

I forgot what my point was when you mentioned women's legs...

okoban
February 20th, 2008, 03:52 PM
The information about marathon swims is very interesting. I also checked the correlation of the paces between 50-100-200 meter events. Decrease in the pace with the increasing distance is much higher in mens events. It means women have better endurance, it is very clear.

TheGoodSmith
February 20th, 2008, 04:18 PM
Careful comparing open water swimming between men and women. The events are HIGHLY variable in terms of conditions and cold water plays different effects on core temperatures with different fat levels. You may be measuring insulation more than endurance.

I'd stick Hackett or Vendt against ANY female in the world in a 20-40 mile race and even bet my house if the wave conditions were equal for competitors and temperature above 70 degrees...... i.e. a purely endurance comparison.

Also remember the law of small numbers. It takes less effect to make a higher percentage change with small numbers than larger numbers.


John Smith

geochuck
February 20th, 2008, 05:01 PM
Very few women could compete with men in marathon races. There were a few who would occasionally be up with the men under all conditions. But they were never consistent.

In cold water some did very well. Greta Anderson did do well in any conditions but never beat the top men in any conditions. Judy Denyse also could be up with the men in any conditions and was very tough. They beat many of the great warm water marathon swimmers in cold water.

Women in general not able to compete with the men.

scyfreestyler
February 20th, 2008, 05:05 PM
Very few women could compete with men in marathon races. There were a few who would occasionally be up with the men under all conditions. But they were never consistent.

In cold water some did very well. Greta Anderson did do well in any conditions but never beat the top men in any conditions. Judy Denyse also could be up with the men in any conditions and was very tough. They beat many of the great warm water marathon swimmers in cold water.

Women in general not able to compete with the men.

I'm heading for the nearest fallout shelter. :bolt:

The Fortress
February 20th, 2008, 05:42 PM
Women in general not able to compete with the men.

Don't forget (S)he-Man!!! :weightlifter:

Men have bigger hearts and lungs and testosterone. Other than that, they can't compete with women. :)

geochuck
February 20th, 2008, 05:52 PM
Fort just give me the facts. Why men are better - http://www.survivalmonkey.com/survinfo/Field%20Manuals/FM21-20/APPA.PDF


Don't forget (S)he-Man!!! :weightlifter:

Men have bigger hearts and lungs and testosterone. Other than that, they can't compete with women. :)

CreamPuff
February 20th, 2008, 06:29 PM
With Speedo's great product design team in place, I think that they recognize the value of at least having us women look like the men since we can't keep up with them.

I take solace in the fact that Speedo makes me look exactly like a man in my FSII body suit. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em! :laugh2::laugh2:

geochuck
February 20th, 2008, 07:04 PM
This LZR would look fine on any woman, http://www.slashgear.com/world-fastest-swimmer-crowned-member-of-speedo-lzr-racer-1910326.php

Allen Stark
February 20th, 2008, 08:16 PM
One could as easily say the bodysuits make the men look like the women,not a problem in briefs.

Chris Stevenson
February 21st, 2008, 04:30 AM
I take solace in the fact that Speedo makes me look exactly like a man in my FSII body suit.

Last year when I first asked a local age-group coach about the advantages of technical suits, he thought for a minute and then replied "Their biggest advantage is probably that they give women swimmers the bodies they had as 14-year olds."

He was too polite to say something like "it also gives aging masters swimmers, such as yourself, a body closer the one they had in college."

Superfly
February 21st, 2008, 09:41 AM
Considering the average of 50, 100 and 200 of 4 events, largest gap is in backstroke (12.2%), butterfly (11.7%), free (11.4%) and breast (10.3%).

Very interesting analysis. Maybe this is some sort of proof of how important technigue is vs pure muscle power. Breaststroke being considered by many as the most difficult one to master technically. If technique is a relatively bigger factor for success in breaststroke than in the other strokes then that could explain why the difference is smaller since everyone can potentially master technique...no matter how much muscle power you have.

also...Femal (knee) joints may be more flexible (i know they are during pregnancy at least) which might lead to a more efficient kick.

my :2cents:

/Per

art_z
February 21st, 2008, 09:47 AM
It is also interesting to see that the gap is narrow in breaststroke. This style needs a lot of power. But, as well as I know breaststroke is the style that contribution of legs is most important. Can we conclude that womens' legs are powerful, making the gap narrower?

funny you say that. I recall John Trembley (coaching at Mercersburg acadamy at the time) saying that at some point in the not too distant future, women will be faster than men in breastroke. This was 1982 or 83.

okoban
February 22nd, 2008, 05:31 PM
I made another analysis. It is related to the choice of events. In 2006 World Masters Champs, both men and women chose freestyle events most. If we index the average number of participants in each freestyle event as 100,


in womens races, number of participants in each breaststroke event is 82, backstroke 64, IM 62 and butterfly 55
in mens races, breaststroke 91, butterfly 83, IM and backstroke 65 each.It means

most people love freestyle and breaststroke,
men like butterfly events, but women hate butterfly

geochuck
February 22nd, 2008, 05:50 PM
I think it means I swim the stroke I do well in.

pwolf66
February 22nd, 2008, 06:23 PM
I recall John Trembley (coaching at Mercersburg acadamy at the time) saying that at some point in the not too distant future, women will be faster than men in breastroke. This was 1982 or 83.

Ah, brings up my biggest regret in life. Not choosing Mercersburg over the high school I did attend. I would have been swimming for John with that program if I had. Instead I choose a school that didn't even have a pool. Ah well.

Allen Stark
February 23rd, 2008, 11:34 AM
funny you say that. I recall John Trembley (coaching at Mercersburg acadamy at the time) saying that at some point in the not too distant future, women will be faster than men in breastroke. This was 1982 or 83.

One must put this quote on context.1983 was before the rule change allowing your head to stay underwater.female swimmers such as Tracy Caulkins had developed a style requiring a level of back flexibility that few men have.Also the East German women had more androgens than most men.I still think that the reason this calculation shows women closer to men in breaststroke is that Liesel is freakishly fast.Compare the # 2s(Kitajima to Hardy) and I get 11.4.

okoban
February 23rd, 2008, 05:49 PM
Allen, you are right. My analysis is very simple. I took the world records only. To have a deeper analysis, we shall take the top 10 records to minimize these kind of problems.;)

okoban
February 24th, 2008, 09:26 AM
Here is another analysis:
If we index the world record times of freestyle events as 100, here are the results: (LCM)
For female swimmers:
-------------------50m. 100m. 200m.
freestyle(index)--- 100---100---100
butterfly---------- 106---106---109
backstroke-------- 117---112---110
breaststroke------ 126----122---122

for male swimmers:
-------------------50m. 100m. 200m.
free(index)-------- 100-- 100-- 100
butterf.----------- 106-- 105-- 108
back-------------- 115-- 111-- 110
breast.------------ 126-- 124-- 124

Here are my conclusions:

butterfly is very fast in 50 and 100, but lose pace with distance (as expected)
backstroke is slow in 50, but the gap decreases wth the distance (I think mainly the start of backstroke is a handicap an its effect is more in shorter distance)
breaststroke has a relatively constant correlation with freestyle and it is approx. 25% slower than free.

Chris Stevenson
February 24th, 2008, 04:18 PM
breaststroke has a relatively constant correlation with freestyle and it is approx. 25% slower than free.

CLEARLY it doesn't belong with the others. When will they wise up and send it to join the trudgeon crawl?

Nice job on the analysis, it is interesting.

Allen Stark
February 24th, 2008, 09:51 PM
Come on Chris,just because you don't walk like a duck is no reason to insult those of us who do.