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View Full Version : Eamon Sullivan breaks Popov's 50m record!



LindsayNB
February 17th, 2008, 03:04 PM
Australian Eamon Sullivan swam a 21.56 50m (LCM) to finally break Popov's record set back in Moscow in 2000:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/beijing2008/sullivan-stuns-the-world/2008/02/17/1203190655692.html
http://news.google.ca/news?q=Eamon+Sullivan

He went on to swim 48.11 in the 100m.

geochuck
February 17th, 2008, 04:16 PM
I did a search for Sullivan's 50 video and this is what I got http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4cmrMJul1g&feature=related

funkyfish
February 17th, 2008, 06:46 PM
I did a search for Sullivan's 50 video and this is what I got http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4cmrMJul1g&feature=related

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa! My kids love that one! :banana:

3strokes
February 17th, 2008, 09:21 PM
I did a search for Sullivan's 50 video and this is what I got http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4cmrMJul1g&feature=related

Here it is:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=y2YH8R0axP0

ande
February 17th, 2008, 10:18 PM
3 strokes
thanks

lindsay 21.56 from 21.65 is a nip not a shatter

uh george it looks like he was kicking hard and fast and it's safe to say he definitely wouldn't have broken the record if he wasn't


Here it is:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=y2YH8R0axP0

geochuck
February 17th, 2008, 10:55 PM
Ande I think his arms were working pretty well.

LindsayNB
February 17th, 2008, 11:05 PM
lindsay 21.56 from 21.65 is a nip not a shatter

I've adjusted the title but in the 50 every 1/100th is big and after eight years I think a little hyperbole is justified! :thhbbb:

JMiller
February 17th, 2008, 11:06 PM
In a 50 a tenth is a good margin.

I've watched the video over 30 times now,
and it seems very interesting. I see something I'd like to analyze more, does anyone have under water video link?

Allen Stark
February 18th, 2008, 12:15 AM
I was just looking at Sullivan from 2007.Since then he has gone to the straight arm recovery.I guess thats the wave of the future in sprinting.He was much more bent elbow in 2007.

geochuck
February 18th, 2008, 09:55 AM
Allan in a 50 or a 100 you do what you have to do. The was not much wrong there. Power all the way clean exit and a powerfull hand entry. Did anyone notice the second wave, it was a big wave that he was kicking into. It seemed to me it was pushing him forward.

I don't think he was stroke counting. I think he did 40 strokes + 21 or 22 sec gives him a score of 61 or 62. I am going to down load it and make it slow motion and get an accurate count.

JMiller
February 18th, 2008, 10:17 AM
Allan in a 50 or a 100 you do what you have to do. The was not much wrong there. Power all the way clean exit and a powerfull hand entry. Did anyone notice the second wave, it was a big wave that he was kicking into. It seemed to me it was pushing him forward.

I don't think he was stroke counting. I think he did 42 or 44 strokes + 21 or 22 sec gives him a score of 63 or up to 66. I am going to down load it and make it slow motion and get an accurate count.

Yes, and it was hard to see from above the water, but it looks as though he was doing the sharp in-sweep right from the top of the stroke, tight to his body, just like Nystrand has been doing. Remember the straight-on underwater video of Nystrand?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiZTm7_n82Y&feature=related

ViveBene
February 18th, 2008, 10:40 AM
From what one can see, am I correct that he didn't breathe, and used one, at most two dolphin kicks?

Jonathan, thanks for posting that underwater video link of Nystrand. It is a bit hard to see what he is doing, but he is quite different from Ian Thorpe.

VB

Blackbeard's Peg
February 18th, 2008, 11:40 AM
From what one can see, am I correct that he didn't breathe, and used one, at most two dolphin kicks?

I thought I saw him take a breath at about the 30M mark.

geochuck
February 18th, 2008, 11:53 AM
It was a very bad video, maybe some new ones coming up.

Here is another video that is in a news broacast http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=6491374&ch=4543756&src=news

In the other video I saw him breath on the left side. I think I saw him breathe on the right side also in the news video..

quicksilver
February 18th, 2008, 12:17 PM
I thought I saw long womens finger nails on his right hand as it crashed into the pad.

geochuck
February 18th, 2008, 12:23 PM
I think you are right, I don't think he trimmed his toenails either. Do you think the foot flick controlled his body roll???

What I did notice is his fingers were not held together in the underwater sequence.


I thought I saw long womens finger nails on his right hand as it crashed into the pad.

TheGoodSmith
February 18th, 2008, 12:32 PM
It would be interesting to know what Popoff could have done in a full body suit.

John Smith

Blackbeard's Peg
February 18th, 2008, 12:58 PM
It would be interesting to know what Popoff could have done in a full body suit.

John Smith
On the contrary, it would also be interesting to know what Sullivan would have done in a speedo. Popov chose not to compete in a style other than brief - and while we think his performance at the last olympics wasn't all that great, he still held his own with all the bodysuiters.

thewookiee
February 18th, 2008, 02:10 PM
Actually ....at the 2003 world's in Spain, Popov swam the 100 in an arena long leg suit, where he won both the 50 and 100 free.

So, even the great one eventually switched from the brief to a long suit...not full body but a long leg suit.

TheGoodSmith
February 18th, 2008, 04:07 PM
The question isn't whether or not Popoff ever wore a body suit.

The question is whether the body suit is the deciding factor in the World Record.

Technology has only clouded the ability to decide at this point who really has swum the fastest 50m LC free.


John Smith

Iwannafly
February 18th, 2008, 04:37 PM
There is no way a suit makes 9/100ths of a second difference. I don't have any data to support that claim, just a somewhat educated guess.

quicksilver
February 18th, 2008, 04:40 PM
The question is whether the body suit is the deciding factor in the World Record.


The answer is coming this summer.

If the time standards are significantly lowered in the sprinting events, it might be a good assumption that the latest suit technology influenced the results to some degree.

ande
February 18th, 2008, 04:58 PM
here's the news
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzi8sdZDPK8

Allen Stark
February 18th, 2008, 09:36 PM
I am not sure that a bunch of sprint free records will mean it's the suit.I think it is possible that this straight arm,ballistic entry style may be a real breakthrough.(But I agree with John,if everyone was in standard suits we'd know which was natural speed and which was fabric.)

JMiller
February 18th, 2008, 09:37 PM
It was a very bad video, maybe some new ones coming up.

Here is another video that is in a news broacast http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=6491374&ch=4543756&src=news

In the other video I saw him breath on the left side. I think I saw him breathe on the right side also in the news video..

There is a short clip of his underwater in the link George provided. (THANK YOU SIR) Yes, he has the same sharp in-sweep at the top of the stroke, and tight pull close to his body, just like Nystrand. Incredible!!

geochuck
February 18th, 2008, 10:01 PM
There is a short clip of his underwater in the link George provided. (THANK YOU SIR) Yes, he has the same sharp in-sweep at the top of the stroke, and tight pull close to his body, just like Nystrand. Incredible!!

That was a good little bit of underwater swimming. There is supposed to be some great video shots of the race but his coach is not letting it be released. Secrets for the upcoming Olympics???

smontanaro
February 18th, 2008, 10:25 PM
There is supposed to be some great video shots of the race but his coach is not letting it be released. Secrets for the upcoming Olympics???

Kind of like curtains around the hulls of the America's Cup racers? ;)

Skip

geochuck
February 18th, 2008, 11:01 PM
Yes the film was taken by one of the Australian Olympic Team officials. I will get his name from a contact of mine and will post it right here when I get the info. I may also be able to get the video.

Paul Smith
February 19th, 2008, 09:17 AM
There is no way a suit makes 9/100ths of a second difference. I don't have any data to support that claim, just a somewhat educated guess.


Sorry T.J but I totally disagree...suit technology plays a significant pat in how fast we are seeing people race "in season" and my guess is that it probably has more of an effect than 9/100ths.

The bigger question to me is the one JS posed, not how much of a differance the latest Fastskin technology has vs. the first or second generation but rather vs. the old school bikini days (which Mr. Commings still embraces!).

By the way speaking of suits....as of the end of December Arena USA shuttered its operations here in the US...not sure where that leaves those of us who use their suits!

ande
February 19th, 2008, 11:54 AM
Hineck fastskin type suits pretty much remove the shave factor from the equation, there's still rest / tapering and psych.
(some meets matter more than others)

I'm not sure how much better one generation of suits is over the others

I wish I had jammers, legskins and hinecks of the:
1) Fastskin
2) Fastskin II
3) Fastskin pro and
4) LZR
to experiement and figure which works best

you'd think speedo or nike would do a study with a group of swimmers
then publish the results,
unless . . .


Sorry T.J but I totally disagree...suit technology plays a significant pat in how fast we are seeing people race "in season" and my guess is that it probably has more of an effect than 9/100ths.

The bigger question to me is the one JS posed, not how much of a differance the latest Fastskin technology has vs. the first or second generation but rather vs. the old school bikini days (which Mr. Commings still embraces!).

By the way speaking of suits....as of the end of December Arena USA shuttered its operations here in the US...not sure where that leaves those of us who use their suits!

tjburk
February 19th, 2008, 12:12 PM
Just to play devils advocate.......

Maybe that's why they haven't.....there isn't enough difference......just another ploy to get you to buy yet another NEW suit.......

Paul Smith
February 19th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Just to play devils advocate.......

Maybe that's why they haven't.....there isn't enough difference......just another ploy to get you to buy yet another NEW suit.......

About 4-5 years ago when the first suits came out one of the Grad Assistants at ASU did a study as part of his thesis....partly funded by several of the manufacturers (my wife was one of the subjects).

The testing was pretty thorough measuring friction, dry weight vs. wet, buoyancy and how all was effected over time, etc. etc. He found that there was indeed an effect to the suits...especially (and contrary to FINA) with regard to buoyancy and he found they did have a positive effect which was actually reversed after the suit became soaked (after about 15 minutes which I've mentioned here before and why I don't warm up in my suit)(Speedo's suit at the time was only the 3rd most effective).

As far as I know the study was published but not picked up on by the swimming media...I'm going to try and track brian down and see if I can find it.

tjburk
February 19th, 2008, 12:51 PM
Thanks Paul,

That is one of the things I always tell the high school kids....only wear it during a race.

Would love to see the results from the study.

I know personally I like the way the Fastskin II feels in the water.

knelson
February 19th, 2008, 02:54 PM
As far as I know the study was published but not picked up on by the swimming media...I'm going to try and track brian down and see if I can find it.

I talked to Bryan about this, too, and I recall the Arena suit "won" the competition at the time. He was coaching at Valpo, but I just looked at their website and see he resigned. Not sure where he's at now.

There's no question in my mind that these suits improve performance. I've worn a Fastskin at enough meets now to know that I swim faster with it on.

The Fortress
February 19th, 2008, 03:06 PM
I am not sure that a bunch of sprint free records will mean it's the suit.I think it is possible that this straight arm,ballistic entry style may be a real breakthrough.(But I agree with John,if everyone was in standard suits we'd know which was natural speed and which was fabric.)

Fastskins are definitely faster.

I noticed in Eamon's race that he really pulled away the second 25. I wonder if that's due to the momentum generated by the straight arm style? How close was his hand to his body on the insweep and pull?

ande
February 19th, 2008, 04:27 PM
might have just been an illusion due to the filming angle

to go that fast
he had to have been leading from the start


Fastskins are definitely faster.

I noticed in Eamon's race that he really pulled away the second 25. I wonder if that's due to the momentum generated by the straight arm style? How close was his hand to his body on the insweep and pull?

JMiller
February 19th, 2008, 11:34 PM
It was a very bad video, maybe some new ones coming up.

Here is another video that is in a news broacast http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=6491374&ch=4543756&src=news

In the other video I saw him breath on the left side. I think I saw him breathe on the right side also in the news video..

Hey George,

You think you could take out the clip of the underwater and put it in slow mode for us? Also, I'm interested in the counts, etc.

Jonathan
ps. Leslie, that avatar is cool... at least you have an actual picture, compared to some who.... wait... this isn't the whiner's thread...

geochuck
February 20th, 2008, 05:42 PM
I downloaded this one a few minutes ago, slow mo underwater. I think I saw three breaths???

http://www.watchuonline.com/video/KQPUlhqVJA4/Eamon-Sullivan-Underwater-Slow-Motion.html

Hey George,

You think you could take out the clip of the underwater and put it in slow mode for us? Also, I'm interested in the counts, etc.

Jonathan
ps. Leslie, that avatar is cool... at least you have an actual picture, compared to some who.... wait... this isn't the whiner's thread...

LindsayNB
February 20th, 2008, 05:56 PM
I made that video! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPUlhqVJA4

Note that it is the same short clip, first at regular speed, then at half, then at quarter speed, so the three breaths were just one.

geochuck
February 20th, 2008, 06:03 PM
Thank you Lindsay. Where did you get the original so I can download it in regular speed so I can put the regular speed video into My Dartswim program.

LindsayNB
February 20th, 2008, 10:34 PM
Thank you Lindsay. Where did you get the original so I can download it in regular speed so I can put the regular speed video into My Dartswim program.

Its from the news video Ande provided in message #23.

JMiller
February 21st, 2008, 12:32 AM
I made that video! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPUlhqVJA4

Note that it is the same short clip, first at regular speed, then at half, then at quarter speed, so the three breaths were just one.


WAAAHHHHAAA funny.... as the clip is slower moooodddddde the voices are llloooonnnggger

Great footage though! That is the new sprint freestyle, apparently... I've never swam that way before... hmmmm....
Thank you Lindsay and George...

geochuck
February 21st, 2008, 11:14 AM
Just looking at his stroke, it looks to me that he is doing the "I" stroke, the hand following the line on the bottom of the pool? An "S" but it is an "S" if you count his body rotation.

JMiller
February 21st, 2008, 12:37 PM
Just looking at his stroke, it looks to me that he is doing the "I" stroke, the hand following the line on the bottom of the pool? An "S" but it is an "S" if you count his body rotation.

Sure, but his forearm quickly goes parralel to his body. That is unusual. In the past, the forearm would be perpendicular to the bottom of the pool, but this is sideways and much shallower. He still gets the full extension at the top of the stroke and finishes strong, but in the middle it appears to be just like Nystrand.

geochuck
February 21st, 2008, 01:02 PM
J

It is nothing new. That is exactly what I do but I am not as fast as he is. This is a tip I have given ---

How the hand enters the water.

It really doesn't matter.

I found it easier to place my hand in the water with the thumb and all of the fingers entering the water at the same time. The elbow is at 90 degrees away from your little finger with a slight bend in your arm. As your hand enters the water press the hand down and out from the center line of the body (about 3 to 5 lbs pressure per sq inch) very gently for about 6 to 8 inches.

Then you press the hand back towards the center line of the body (at 9 to 12 lbs pressure per sq inch) not applying full pressure and take it to the catch point of your stroke.

When you get to the catch point max it (about 25 lbs per sq inch) keep the hand as close to the body as practical and press down to your thigh.

The Fortress
February 21st, 2008, 01:11 PM
You didn't look like Sullivan in the videos I've seen of you, George. :thhbbb: I agree with Jonathan. It looks different. He's almost crossing over and the hands are very close to the body.

JMiller
February 21st, 2008, 01:16 PM
It is nothing new. That is exactly what I do but I am not as fast as he is.

It's new to me, and it's a "new" WR.

geochuck
February 21st, 2008, 01:21 PM
Fort you have only seen me swim slow and never seen me sprint a 50. But you will see me soon. Chuckie has given me permission to swim hard and fast.


You didn't look like Sullivan in the videos I've seen of you, George. :thhbbb: I agree with Jonathan. It looks different. He's almost crossing over and the hands are very close to the body.

The Fortress
February 21st, 2008, 01:23 PM
Fort you have only seen me swim slow and never seen me sprint a 50. But you will see me soon. Chuckie has given me permission to swim hard and fast.

George, you are all talk and no walk. I think you are one of the CS people Kurt was chastising. :thhbbb:

geochuck
February 21st, 2008, 01:26 PM
Keep the hand as close to the body as practical

The reason I say this, is you will scatch the body with your thumb nails if too close.

JMiller
February 21st, 2008, 01:38 PM
Fort you have only seen me swim slow and never seen me sprint a 50. But you will see me soon. Chuckie has given me permission to swim hard and fast.


Right on George... I wish you the best. You did go to the Olympics after-all.

Iwannafly
February 21st, 2008, 02:55 PM
Sorry T.J but I totally disagree...suit technology plays a significant part in how fast we are seeing people race "in season" and my guess is that it probably has more of an effect than 9/100ths.

So, I've been mulling this over for a day or two now. I will just have to disagree with you Paul. I don't think that a suit can cut the drag along a swimmer's body significantly (as opposed to a shaved, brief-wearing swimmer) enough to see those sort of results. I believe there is a mental aspect to wearing that suit that may result in that kind of difference, but then it is not technically the suit making the difference. I could be convinced otherwise, but only by some sort of valid research. I think there is no research out there to support suit manufacturers' claims though, because the research didn't provide the results they had hoped for. I think these claims are more about how many suits Speedo can sell. Again, I am more than happy to admit I'm wrong if proven so. I would really love to see the research that was alluded to earlier in this thread.

JMiller
February 21st, 2008, 10:14 PM
The suit might have made a difference, but I'd say his technique we've been discussing is probably a bigger factor. He did drop nearly .5 from his previous best time. 22.0 in 2006

Allen Stark
February 22nd, 2008, 11:44 AM
I think he and Nystrand(and Inkie and Klim to a lesser degree) have made an important technical advancement,unfortunately due to the suit situation we can't know if we are comparing apples to apples.

Allen Stark
February 22nd, 2008, 11:55 AM
Deleted

LindsayNB
February 22nd, 2008, 12:36 PM
Has anyone compared Sullivan and Nystrand to Klim? Have they made any major adjustments to his stroke? Klim and Popov were contemporaries and given their respective histories if the "new" stroke is the same as the Klim stroke then the new stroke might be suited to some people while the Popov stroke might be suited to others, rather than everyone changing to the "new" stroke.

Fearless Leader
February 22nd, 2008, 01:28 PM
,unfortunately due to the suit situation we can't know if we are comparing apples to apples.
As snug as these suits are, it is real easy to compare apples to apples.;):o

JMiller
February 23rd, 2008, 01:47 AM
Has anyone compared Sullivan and Nystrand to Klim? Have they made any major adjustments to his stroke? Klim and Popov were contemporaries and given their respective histories if the "new" stroke is the same as the Klim stroke then the new stroke might be suited to some people while the Popov stroke might be suited to others, rather than everyone changing to the "new" stroke.


Lindsay,

You know that's funny, I was wondering the same thing... I've not seen underwater footage of Klim... Anyone have links? You know, the other thing is this forum and U-tube... that combination allows us to analyse a WR in a very short amount of time...

It would be interesting to see Klim underwater... and compare the differences.

geochuck
February 23rd, 2008, 08:43 AM
One hundred from above http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4928038395691051834&q=Michael+Klim+swim+video&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1085204115022871176

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1619286656023427408

Popov http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-270895165546853828
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1232575243766306771

JMiller
February 24th, 2008, 12:18 AM
One hundred from above http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-4928038395691051834&q=Michael+Klim+swim+video&total=2&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1085204115022871176

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1619286656023427408

Popov http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-270895165546853828
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1232575243766306771


It was hard to tell from these video's, but it doesn't appear that Klim is doing the same in-sweep as Nystrand or Sullivan. Anyone have more of Klim underwater?

JMiller
February 25th, 2008, 12:01 AM
It was hard to tell from these video's, but it doesn't appear that Klim is doing the same in-sweep as Nystrand or Sullivan. Anyone have more of Klim underwater?


Although, Klim's kick is incredible!!! This video should be added to the kicking thread...

Matulaitis
February 25th, 2008, 05:38 PM
Could it be that the arm insweep achieves an "Early Diagonal Forearm" position more quickly than one can get to an EVF, but yields the same increased surface area?

Plus EDF puts the arm is in a more powerful position when close to the body?

geochuck
February 25th, 2008, 05:43 PM
Don't forget the body is also rolling and both arms are doing a slightly different action. What you think you see may not be what you think it is.

JMiller
February 27th, 2008, 12:54 AM
Could it be that the arm insweep achieves an "Early Diagonal Forearm" position more quickly than one can get to an EVF, but yields the same increased surface area?

Plus EDF puts the arm is in a more powerful position when close to the body?

It certainly feels that way. Also, it seems easier to increase the rating this way, plus it helps with the finish, etc. After watching Popov more closely it appears that he also was doing the EDF stroke to a good degree...

Allen Stark
February 27th, 2008, 08:36 PM
EDF also gives you the potential to whip you hand past your elbow for more hand speed (where as with EVF the hand and elbow move at the same speed for more of the pull.)

JMiller
February 28th, 2008, 03:17 PM
Has anyone watched this video of Popov before? It's very good, and it seems there are elements of both Nystrand and Sullivan in the video.
There is one scene where Popov is doing a drill with a snorkel, freestyle with dolphin kick, and it is so smooth... Yes though, without a doubt EDF

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1387883746453817821

geochuck
February 28th, 2008, 03:30 PM
Has anyone watched this video of Popov before? It's very good, and it seems there are elements of both Nystrand and Sullivan in the video.
There is one scene where Popov is doing a drill with a snorkel, freestyle with dolphin kick, and it is so smooth... Yes though, without a doubt EDF

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-1387883746453817821
We have watched it many times.

JMiller
February 28th, 2008, 05:27 PM
We have watched it many times.

We did?

geochuck
February 28th, 2008, 06:07 PM
At least I have. That video has been listed for nearly fourteen months.

Paul Smith
March 18th, 2008, 10:21 AM
Gary Hall is apparently being sued by Eamon for comments he made questioning the performance:

__________________________________________________ _____
Gary Hall Jr.
Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 572
Location: Sunny Florida
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:27 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if you haven't seen or heard already here are some links that will bring you up to speed.

http://www.timedfinals.com/14032008/fighting-words/

http://swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?action=get&id=5914

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/17486.asp#RT

http://www.deckpass.com/march-15-2008-gary-hall-jr-responds-and-fitness-legend-jack-lalanne-visits/

http://www.timedfinals.com/15032008/sullivan-to-sue-hall-jr-over-drug-slur/

http://www.timedfinals.com/16032008/sydney-morning-herald-eamon-sullivan-says-gary-who/

Everybody that swims fast is suspected of doping these days. I have pointed out very clearly that it has everything to do with the amount of cheating that has gone on in sports, and not the fault of the athletes performing well on their own.

Having Grant Hackett and Alan Thompson run to your side screaming absurdities does not help Eamon in my opinion, or his argument. They absolutely freaked out.

As well as I think I know everyone on the US team I can’t be 100% certain that every one of them is clean. I don’t think that it’s possible for Grant or Alan to know 100% either that Eamon is clean.

Craig Lord points out, actually backs up with some pretty convincing numbers, that there is more reason to doubt Eamon’s performance than the average fast swimmer. It’s a pretty solid argument from a guy who is much more articulate than I, and as a guy from the UK an unbiased view.

So, I am asking everyone here, especially those defending Eamon, what is he doing better than everyone else in the world? I’d like to keep myself out of the argument, though I realize that may not be possible at this point since I'm supposedly being sued.

Eamon is blowing away Schoeman, Texas guys, American guys, European guys, young guys, injury free guys that have put more than a couple of injury free seasons together, guys that have a lot more international race experience, yes old guys like me too, guys from well established swim programs that have produced many champions, etc., etc., etc…

Is his technique flawless? You can find it on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQPUlhqVJA4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rzi8sdZDPK8

Maybe it was the two weeks of altitude training? It’s hardly innovative. I’m sure the three hip surgeries couldn’t have helped. By his own admission the sprints are determined by “fraction of a second” “fingernails separate first to last”. He just dropped nearly a half second and beat VERY fast guys by a body length. How do you explain it?

At 22 he would be a post grad swimmer in the US. Established programs here in the US like Texas, Auburn, Arizona, Marsh, Salo, Bottom, have their swimmers pretty well established before they graduate, maybe not peaked, but definitely a lot more established than Eamon has been in previous years.

I am not about to bash his coach because I don’t know him at all and that is also reason to raise an eyebrow. Is this Stoelwinder (sp?) guy THAT much better than Touretski, Salo, DeMont, Reese, Marsh, Kenny or Bottom that he was able to take a 6′0 guy with three bad hips and drop him to a 21.5? Has he produced any other top level swimmers? I am asking here because I don’t know.

Drops are consistent for most clean athletes. While the drops are larger for swimmers like Michael Phelps and Katie Hoff their drops are consistent all the same. Not so with Eamon, or Bernard. These same questions can be asked of Alain as well. He went from a 22.3 to a 21.7?

I am NOT saying that I don’t believe that the time 21.5 is impossible. It’s now been done and all of us are a little bit curious, how does a 22 year old with three hip surgeries, drop a half a second in the 50 free, unrested?

Some insight into how he is training, what he is doing different from every other sprint program in the world might ease some of those suspicious minds, in a way that “I have been drug tested!” never will. We all know that the cheaters are WAAAAAY ahead of the testers.
_________________
Your friend in swimming,
Gary Hall Jr.

Long live the Race Club!

geochuck
March 18th, 2008, 10:31 AM
Swim fast - he must have cheated???

Did he go to the mountains for alltitude training or did he use a machine at sea level.

http://www.hypoxico.com/?gclid=CICrwobwlpICFQwcawod5hA9_Q

Should everyone who does altitude training be called cheaters?

Maybe blood doping http://www.copacabanarunners.net/i-epo.html

tjburk
March 18th, 2008, 11:06 AM
Paul, thanks for the links to all the comments and articles....some very interesting points brought forward. And even though I still believe these people to be clean (Sullivan, Alain, Torres)....it does raise the ultimate question about this......What are they all doing thatothers aren't? I would like to know so I could pass it on to the kids I coach if it's all legal!!!!:2cents:

Stillhere
March 18th, 2008, 11:37 AM
I applaud and embrace Gary Hall Jr. for having the brass to stand up and question this outrageous time drop. I have had a few hip replacements and I speak from experience when I say, it defies logic, reason and belief that Eamon is clean. Possible? Yes! Plausible? Hardly!
Now we see open, forthright questioning of these illogical performances possibly being silenced through legal action. If my memory is not failing me—didn’t Marion Jones bring suit against the Balco for saying she was dirty? Heck, she went after him like a freight train only to be exposed years later for being a low down cheat. Gary, keep the questions coming---we need more “reason” then nonsense in sports these days.

Paul, thank you for your common sense post---

geochuck
March 18th, 2008, 11:58 AM
I guess we will soon find out who will be fastest in the 50 at the Olympics. Whether the mouth is better in the pool or the swimmer.

knelson
March 18th, 2008, 12:25 PM
I applaud and embrace Gary Hall Jr. for having the brass to stand up and question this outrageous time drop. I have had a few hip replacements and I speak from experience when I say, it defies logic, reason and belief that Eamon is clean.

Outrageous? It seems like whenever someone swims well these days someone else has to accuse them of cheating. By all accounts Sullivan has always been an athlete with lots of potential. Maybe now that he's healthy he's finally realized that potential. I see no reason to assume that Sullivan is a drug cheat. This is a kid just reaching his prime.

Paul Smith
March 18th, 2008, 12:28 PM
Just to be clear, I copied Gary's post from his Race Club website.

You can read the whole discussion here:
http://www.theraceclub.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1355

Another interesting discussion about the Sports Illustrated gene doping:
http://www.theraceclub.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1356
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/magazine/03/11/steroids.future/

I'm not sure what to think about Eamon's swim, in general my skepticism over drug use is tied to 2 things; physical transformations that defy logic and athletic perfromances that defy logic...in Eamon's case he certainly has the talent to swim that fast BUT it is a major breakthrough...however there appears to be no change in his physical traits.

Like I said, the days of not questioning ANY major athletic performance/breakthrough are and should be gone until some reliable form of testing can be found...which is probably never.

TheGoodSmith
March 18th, 2008, 12:28 PM
Gary's concerns are legitimate. He has made no formal or direct accusations.

We live in a different world now.

Sports Illustrated Article:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/magazine/03/11/steroids1/index.html


John Smith

geochuck
March 18th, 2008, 12:33 PM
Wow a guy drops a portion of a second he has to be a cheater by some opinions.

I think they must be on drugs???

I don't mean Sullivan.


Outrageous? It seems like whenever someone swims well these days someone else has to accuse them of cheating. By all accounts Sullivan has always been an athlete with lots of potential. Maybe now that he's healthy he's finally realized that potential. I see no reason to assume that Sullivan is a drug cheat. This is a kid just reaching his prime.

Stillhere
March 18th, 2008, 01:26 PM
The Smith's said it better then I can---

tjburk
March 18th, 2008, 01:46 PM
I being an eternal optimist believe him to be clean......but honestly, the discussion does raise some interesting questions.....

LindsayNB
March 18th, 2008, 02:55 PM
I agree, Eamon should give his competition detailed information on how he achieved his improvements. Preferably in time for them to use them against him at the Olympics. :agree:

Strange that someone in the latest Speedo LZR suit swimming 0.09sec under a record set by someone wearing a regular brief is considered suspicious. I guess not everyone believes in the latest Speedo products.

geochuck
March 18th, 2008, 03:50 PM
What a bunch of fishers. Why should he tell anyone about his secrets?

Then everyone will be as fast. It is like the football coach who steals signals.

I am getting ill reading some of this stuff.

Maybe he took a TI course.

Iwannafly
March 18th, 2008, 04:08 PM
There are still differences in physical talent that training cannot compensate for. We (and I use the 'we' in the most liberal sense of the work) train to fulfill our physical potential and minimize the mistakes that make the difference between winning and losing. Perhaps Eamon changed physically as a result of maturation and that change happened relatively quickly. It's not unreasonable for a 21 or 22 year old male to still grow and gain strength. Perhaps he is just that more talented than those who came before him (as unlikely as that is).
I don't know one way or the other about Eamon Sullivan, but it is sad to me that athletic achievements are viewed with such skepticism. I enjoy watching a lot of sports. But if I thought that every time a record was broken, or someone had a great achievement, there was cheating involved, I would not be inclined to watch any more. So, for now, I will remain blissfully naive and enjoy every moment of the Olympics and whatever other sporting event I am watching.

quicksilver
March 18th, 2008, 08:45 PM
If Phelps didn't have a known history of incredibly fast swimming in nearly every event...he'd be put under some serious scrutiny.
And on the other side of the coin....those without past portfolio who flirt with new time standards are placed in doubt.


Since most of this chemical performance enhancing stuff flies under the radar there's really no way to tell.
Sadly this undermines the legitimate performances with clouds of skepticism.

It's got to be tough for those who compete fairly.