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pmbchill
April 12th, 2008, 05:51 PM
Does anyone know when the psych sheet will be available for Perth?:fish2:

Rykno
April 13th, 2008, 02:23 AM
this came out early sat morning..

http://www.2008finamasters.org.au/infoswim.htm

knelson
April 14th, 2008, 03:25 PM
You know what's a little odd from glancing at the psych sheets? There aren't nearly as many Australians swimmings as I would have expected. It seems like the meet would be dominated by Australians, but it really isn't. Isn't masters swimming very popular in Oz?

Peter Cruise
April 14th, 2008, 03:36 PM
Kirk: masters is very popular there, they have just the same issues that we have re time zones, transcontinental travel etc. & real life intruding into swim plans. What is marked is the mobility of masters from many other countries; truly now a world sport.

CreamPuff
April 15th, 2008, 10:09 AM
For the record, 35-39 Women (my age group) is insanely fast! :doh::notworthy:
Going through a pre-midlife crisis like me - it's all over when you hit 40?

knelson
April 15th, 2008, 10:51 AM
For the record, 35-39 Women (my age group) is insanely fast! :doh::notworthy:

You could hang, I'm sure. Your 5:12 500 free converts to under 4:40 and that would seed you third in the 400 free.

I also noticed Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen is swimming for France. WTF?

LindsayNB
April 15th, 2008, 11:14 AM
I also noticed Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen is swimming for France. WTF?

Not too long ago there was a world record set in one of the relays by a French team, one of the members of which was KP-N.

CreamPuff
April 15th, 2008, 12:31 PM
You could hang, I'm sure. Your 5:12 500 free converts to under 4:40 and that would seed you third in the 400 free.

I also noticed Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen is swimming for France. WTF?

Thanks Kirk. I'm just noticing how much faster the top gals in my age group are than the rest of us mere mortals. The fly competition is pretty stiff too.

How would KPN get to swim for France? Do you need to be a citizen or what?

LindsayNB
April 15th, 2008, 01:32 PM
How would KPN get to swim for France? Do you need to be a citizen or what?

Citizenship is irrelevant in Masters swimming, swimmers compete for their club not their country and you can register with whatever club you like that will take you.

The Fortress
April 15th, 2008, 04:45 PM
You could hang, I'm sure. Your 5:12 500 free converts to under 4:40 and that would seed you third in the 400 free.

I also noticed Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen is swimming for France. WTF?

Yeah, that's way worse than self-professed relay whore John Smith swimming for superteam Arizona at Nats. Deciding not to represent your country so you can have yet another relay world record to add to your already huge stockpile?! :shakeshead: She couldn't find fast people to swim with here?!?! I guess too many are at Nats instead ... I hope her individual times at Worlds aren't somehow eligible for listing under US Top Ten LC times since she's affiliated with another country. That would really suck. But I'm wondering if she's registered with USMS, they might still show up? Well, then she could be on both the European and USMS lists and do some real double dipping. Sorry to be cynical, but I've seen the professional masters swimmers tote up their rankings totals for swim clinics and whatnot ... I'm sure one of the Smiths will come along soon and explain how this is just dandy and advances the cause of increasing US masters participation ...

I enjoy swimming relays with the people I train with on my little local club team. Fortunately, superteam Arizona will not be able to catch my chick team in the 400 medley relay since it's not swum at Nats. :thhbbb:

As for the psych sheets, my age group appears to be quite a bit easier than 2006.

Paul Smith
April 15th, 2008, 09:32 PM
Yeah, that's way worse than self-professed relay whore John Smith swimming for superteam Arizona at Nats. Really, that rule should be fixed. I'm sorry. Deciding not to represent your country so you can have yet another relay world record to add to your already huge stockpile?! :shakeshead: She couldn't find fast people to swim with here?!?! I guess too many are at Nats instead ... I hope her individual times at Worlds aren't somehow eligible for listing under US Top Ten LC times since she's affiliated with another country. That would really suck. But I'm wondering if she's registered with USMS, they might still show up? Well, then she could be on both the European and USMS lists and do some real double dipping. Sorry to be cynical, but I've seen the professional masters swimmers tote up their rankings totals for swim clinics and whatnot ... I'm sure one of the Smiths will come along soon and explain how this is just dandy and advances the cause of increasing US masters participation ...

I enjoy swimming relays with the people I train with on my little local club team. Fortunately, superteam Arizona will not be able to catch my chick team in the 400 medley relay since it's not swum at Nats. :thhbbb:

As for the psych sheets, my age group appears to be quite a bit easier than 2006.

I have no idea why KPN is swimming for them....as for me, I've got ex-college teammates/friends in France, Sweden, Germany, Turkey, etc. etc. etc. and if any of them asked me to swim with their team and I was not already committed to a "club" team (remember, FINA does not allow "countries" to compete only "clubs" which I think is stupid) here in the US I'd say yes in a heartbeat.

Fort, you and many here feel strongly about the "local" level of being part of a team and i think that is great. For myself team has a broader meaning with regard to USMS and extends to friends, family, former teammates and people I've trained with or would like to get to know better...so I'm happy that there are no "rules" that dictate my choices as to how and with whom I chose to align with for meets.

PS; for the record I have registered in Arizona as "unattached' vs. with a local team as I consider the 3 teams I train with on different occasions to all be my "team(s)".

The Fortress
April 15th, 2008, 10:38 PM
I have no idea why KPN is swimming for them....as for me, I've got ex-college teammates/friends in France, Sweden, Germany, Turkey, etc. etc. etc. and if any of them asked me to swim with their team and I was not already committed to a "club" team (remember, FINA does not allow "countries" to compete only "clubs" which I think is stupid) here in the US I'd say yes in a heartbeat.

Fort, you and many here feel strongly about the "local" level of being part of a team and i think that is great. For myself team has a broader meaning with regard to USMS and extends to friends, family, former teammates and people I've trained with or would like to get to know better...so I'm happy that there are no "rules" that dictate my choices as to how and with whom I chose to align with for meets.

PS; for the record I have registered in Arizona as "unattached' vs. with a local team as I consider the 3 teams I train with on different occasions to all be my "team(s)".

I understand your position with respect to competing in US Nats, and I have not been an outspoken "localist," although I admit I feel some allegiance to my local team -- though I only practice with them 1x a week. I'm not saying I'd never switch teams if my teammates were not competing and I had a chance to swim with other friends or go after a record. I would. But I wouldn't do it if I had the option of a Nats relay with my local teammates. (I do not this year, unfortunately, as only 3 women on my team are going. There we are in my avatar!! The rockin GMU backstrokers!! Yes, I'm the short one on the right.) And I would absolutely not change my country affiliation at a Worlds meet. And I would bet my new FS Pro that I have more ties to France than KPN.

Oh, who cares? We're just adult swimmers competing in an obsessive subculture and it's within the rules. I guess I'm just dreadfully old fashioned, although I thought I was an ALS ... KPN switches teams so often lately, it looks like record collecting. Perhaps she's just trying to get some publicity to support her profession ... and sell more DVDs, etc. Probably makes good business sense.

I'm also curious whether she'll end up on both the USMS and European LC lists for her "French" club swims. Can she break USMS records while swimming for France? I don't care vis-a-vis myself, I'm not really at her level. Nor am I a professional masters swimmer. But I wonder about the record collecting angle. Maybe an admin guru can come along and clear that up.

Meanwhile, I'll look forward to seeing you compete for Turkey. :thhbbb:

Karen Duggan
April 16th, 2008, 11:47 AM
KPN, as far as I know, has never hid anything. I've known her for many years now and she's always been forthcoming when I've asked her things like, "Why are you swimming for Illinois?"

Her husband's parents live near Walnut Creek and when they're visiting they come swim with us. I believe they're still living in Hawaii?
Next time I see her, I'll ask her what's up with the French Connection? I'll let you know.
Is she going to USMS Nationals? I'll ask her there if she's going.

knelson
April 16th, 2008, 12:16 PM
She does swim all over the world and at all levels of competition probably more than any other person in masters swimming, so it would be difficult to begrudge her her choice to swim for a team outside the U.S. I just though it was a little strange at first glance.

The Fortress
April 16th, 2008, 02:39 PM
She does swim all over the world and at all levels of competition probably more than any other person in masters swimming, so it would be difficult to begrudge her her choice to swim for a team outside the U.S. I just though it was a little strange at first glance.

Very true, but her team jumping does cause controversy. When she swam for Illinois Masters, she basically rewrote much of the Illinois State record book. This set off a firestorm of controversy among Illinois residents, some of whom though that Illinois records should be held by Illinois residents. (I understand KPN gave up those state records.)

She came to our zones meet a couple years ago and set a zillion records. No one minded because zones are fair game; anyone can swim. She seemed very affable.

I'm still curious about how her French club affiliation effects her possible USMS rankings and records.

ALM
April 16th, 2008, 04:57 PM
I'm still curious about how her French club affiliation effects her possible USMS rankings and records.

You've raised some good questions. I think I found the answer in the USMS Rule Book:



202.2 RECOGNIZED EVENTS
Times achieved at recognized events shall be considered for USMS national records and Top 10 times if a designated USMS observer is present and verifies in writing that the conduct of the competition conforms to the relevant USMS swimming rules and administrative regulations. USMS membership is not required for swimmers entered in recognized events. Times achieved by USMS members at events sanctioned by USA Swimming shall be considered for USMS National records and Top 10 times without formal application for recognition. Times achieved by USMS members at events sanctioned by a FINA member federation shall be considered for USMS National records and Top 10 times without formal application for recognition if the USMS member(s) register for the meet as USMS members. It is the responsibility of the swimmer to submit times obtained in recognized events with complete documentation to the appropriate LSMC Top 10 recorder and the Records and Tabulation Committee chair.

Since she has not registered for the meet as a USMS member, her times should not be eligible for USMS national or Top 10 rankings.

Anna Lea

Paul Smith
April 16th, 2008, 05:53 PM
I'm guessing KPN is more interested in FINA recognized WR's vs. USMS records, I may be wrong but thought that Brent Barnes swims for Japan but doesn't reside there.

As for swimming for a club team in another country I have no idea why but am guessing some swimmers from over there approached her. if no US club that she typically swims for (like San Diego, remember she lives on Kona and I'm doubtful any others from there are going) was fielding enough swimmers why not?

I go back to something I brought up before Worlds at Stanford, FINA should change the rules and allow us to represent our countries vs. swim at the club level for an event like Worlds.

The Fortress
April 16th, 2008, 05:57 PM
I go back to something I brought up before Worlds at Stanford, FINA should change the rules and allow us to represent our countries vs. swim at the club level for an event like Worlds.

I agree!! Highly preferable. I actually had to join a club to even compete at Worlds and I was the only one from that club there. Couldn't swim unattached. Ridiculous.

I'm sure KPN is more interested in FINA WRs. But she'll undoubtedly collect a lot of French National Records as well.

Rykno
April 17th, 2008, 01:47 AM
I go back to something I brought up before Worlds at Stanford, FINA should change the rules and allow us to represent our countries vs. swim at the club level for an event like Worlds.

I've brought this up with the Swedish Swimming association after I found out Sweden was going to host the 2010 worlds.

Sweden has a fairly small Masters program. At our Nationals we had roughly 1370 starts for 30 events (including 6 relays). The event with the most starts was mens 50m free at 175, least starts womens 800m, only 8. An average of 45 starts per event.

Right now, my team is only has 4 competing masters swimmers and one of them refuses to swim anything but breastroke at meets, so no free relay for the rest of us.

pakman044
April 17th, 2008, 08:21 AM
I've brought this up with the Swedish Swimming association after I found out Sweden was going to host the 2010 worlds.

Sweden has a fairly small Masters program. At our Nationals we had roughly 1370 starts for 30 events (including 6 relays). The event with the most starts was mens 50m free at 175, least starts womens 800m, only 8. An average of 45 starts per event.

Right now, my team is only has 4 competing masters swimmers and one of them refuses to swim anything but breastroke at meets, so no free relay for the rest of us.

If you really want a free relay, you could just let your breaststroker swim breaststroke (remember, there's no restriction on what freestyle can be during a freestyle event; see FINA SW 5.1). The relay time will take a hit on that basis, but I'd say that's better than no relay.

On the other hand, doing that once with your teammate might convince them to at least try some crawl action during freestyle.

In other news, Friday's first two heat sheets were posted (Women's 800 Free, 35 heats in the 10 lane pool (http://www.2008finamasters.org.au/pdf/800freew.PDF); Men's 800 Free, 42 heats in the 8 lane pool (http://www.2008finamasters.org.au/pdf/800freem.PDF)). It's interesting they decided to seed by age group and not just by time (that's how they did it in Stanford, but then again, they had 46 heats of men and 46 heats of women in 10 lane pools!).

Patrick King

Rykno
April 17th, 2008, 09:01 AM
If you really want a free relay, you could just let your breaststroker swim breaststroke (remember, there's no restriction on what freestyle can be during a freestyle event; see FINA SW 5.1). The relay time will take a hit on that basis, but I'd say that's better than no relay.


we know, he's actually offered to do that. and go anchor so we are not trying to play catch up the entire time....

LindsayNB
April 17th, 2008, 09:38 AM
If your breaststroking teammate uses a breaststroke style where they completely submerge they may be DQed in the freestyle as the rules require that some part of the body must break the surface at all times after the 15m mark.

ALM
April 17th, 2008, 11:43 AM
If your breaststroking teammate uses a breaststroke style where they completely submerge they may be DQed in the freestyle as the rules require that some part of the body must break the surface at all times after the 15m mark.

Here is the actual rule:


101.5.2 Stroke—In an event designated freestyle, the swimmer may swim any style, except that in a medley relay or individual medley event, freestyle means any style other than butterfly, breaststroke or backstroke. Some part of the swimmer must break the surface of the water throughout the race, except it shall be permissible for the swimmer to be completely submerged during the turn and for a distance of not more than 15 meters (16.4 yards) after the start and each turn. By that point the head must have broken the surface.

I'm not sure whether "throughout the race" means the same thing as "at all times". Could "throughout the race" mean "at regular intervals", such as every stroke?

pakman044
April 17th, 2008, 12:43 PM
"Throughout the race" in this context means the distance between the 15m mark and the turn (or finish)--that distance you must be on the surface. So some part of the swimmer must break the surface of the water at all times in that zone.

That being said, it doesn't have to be much that is breaking the surface of the water, and for the judge to make the call, they have to be certain that the swimmer is completely submerged. For me, you'd have to be submerged quite deeply for me to be certain. Otherwise, how do I know that a wave didn't break over the swimmer (inadvertent submergence) or a toe isn't breaking the surface of the water?

It is an interesting point that I didn't think of. I would think that most breaststrokers probably would not be submerged deeply enough or for long enough to make a judge certain. The positioning of the judge in question also is key. A turn judge would have almost zero chance of making this call; a stroke judge would have a little better chance, but they probably are only watching the 15m marks.

Patrick King

kpipesneilsen
May 10th, 2009, 06:24 PM
Wow! It is really interesting to read all this stuff WAY after the fact.

To clear things up a bit, here is the history of why I swim for a TEAM in France ACBB (Athletic Club Boulonge Billancourt) located in Paris.

In early 2007, I was looking for a international meters meet to swim since I had just aged up to 45 and wanted to get a jump start on some FINA WR's. At Worlds in Stanford in 2006, I had met many of the ACBB team members through Duncan McCready (a UK swimmmer and friend that swims for ACBB) and had fun hanging out with them during that long meet. The French are VERY social (like me!) and we hit it off right away.

When I told Duncan I was looking for a meet, he suggested I swim the French SCM nationals in Angers and asked if I like to join ACBB since you HAVE to have a FRENCH swimming registration to compete in the meet. I said yes!

Great meet, a lot of team spirit, a few WR for me and 1 relay WR for ACBB (the first!). I love being a part of a team and I miss this the most when I travel to meets far and away

Fast forward to three months prior to Perth, 2008. My regular USMS team San Diego Swim Masters (SDSM) is only sending 6 swimmers, all over 60 meaning no relays for me. ACBB had asked if I would like to swim for them. Since San Diego has bailed I say yes knowing that this will cause controversy. The other option is to switch USMS teams to Mission Viejo, or NOVA and these are San Diego rivals. I know some really great people and coaches from those teams, but I would rather not.

At Perth, I have so much fun with our 30 neon orange and black clad teammates, and my husband Eric swims for them as well. If you were at Perth, ACBB were the ones with the chicken heads on and crazy flag colored face paint. ACBB has a great coach Ollivier (gets splits, videos each race...the whole nine yards as a coach) has awesome team spirit, and we have team dinners and tons of fun.

In March of 2009 I return to France to compete in the SCM French Nationals in Dunkirk and the fun and fast swims continue with ACBB (43 teammates!). Yes, I set a few more personal WRs, but I was also a part of ACBB relay teams that set three WR records as well. In one relay we lowered our own WR record but we accidentally took down two records previously owned by Japan GOLD. Heck, we were only going for European records. Anyway, I could not be more proud!

After the meet, Eric and I traveled to Switzerland, UK and Germany where we hosted 10 clinics then I spent a week in Paris hanging out with teammates and training as well as hosting a clinic with them.

I am lucky to say I have over 100 teammates in Paris I call friends. I have not been paid to swim for ACBB, however, the team is subsidized by the city so NO team member pays for entry fees or for a hotel for nationals.

That is the long and the short of it. I plan to swim for ACBB for as long as they will have me.

To clear things up even further...

When swimming under my French card the times I swim DO NOT count for USMS top ten or USMS National records. This means that I often need to swim the same events at a USMS meet to make up for it. They do count towards FINA Top ten.

I do not earn any French Records as I am not a French citizen. In fact, at French nationals I share the podium with the fastest French swimmer and she is the national champion.

I choose not to accept any European records (except for relays), but I could do so if I wanted to since I have been a member in good standing of a European Federation team (ACBB) since 2007. However, I prefer NOT to accept the recognition or record (like I did in Illinois) and to prevent this I have been in contact with both Walt Reid and the LEN records chair and hope that my wishes have been honored.

Yes, I am a professional swimmer because I teach other people how to swim fast at my swim technique clinics (www.aquaticedge.org) and make a living from it. However, I am NOT paid to swim by any team or sponsor.

Yes, I do like to set records but I am also a fair person. Back in Illinois I had no idea that the state records were being given to me and when I found out, I quicky declined the honor.

For those of you who stood up for me and presented the facts, thanks! For those of you who were quick to jump my case, shame on you. You do not even know me. I am an OPEN BOOK.

That's all, folks. Questions? email me at aquaticedge@hawaii.rr.com