PDA

View Full Version : Austin National times from splits



chowmi
May 6th, 2008, 03:47 PM
Can anyone answer this? Maybe someone from the Austin meet?

First question:
What is the story on relay and individual splits? I tried to get my splits to count from a backstroke leadoff on the mixed medley, and the 50 free off my 100 free event. Both were legal finishes and appear in the final results.

When I tried to fill out a split form, everyone from the volunteer handing me the form, to the 3 officials at my race end told me I didn't need it and all the splits, particularly the free events, would be "uploaded automatically". This seems to be true in the case of records, but I am interested in a "real" time for my 50's and simply have my 50 times "official".

Second question:
Did I totally miss the boat? Here is a cut & paste from the meet information about our times to count for USA SWIMS database:

"TIME VERIFICATION (FORMERLY OVCs)
Swimmers needing verification of time(s) or wish their times to be entered into the USA Swimming SWIMS Database (for entry into USA-S national meets) should complete a form at the meet and prior to the swim. Contact the Administrative Referee at the meet."

Is it really, really too late for this? I already have Sectional cuts for TX Senior Circuit, but both my indiv & 50 split on the 100 made the automatic cut. It would be really, really nice to have the times count, that so I can enter TSC #3 and do all the 4 x 50's with the "1 automatic cut = any event under 200" rule.

I emailed Ann Nellis (I think) at meet.admin@austin.utexas.edu but no reply back yet.

Anyone know if there is anything I can still do to get those times to count?

meldyck
May 6th, 2008, 04:23 PM
Michelle,

I had the same experience. From my conversations with Jim Matysek, it seems as though Walt Reid has written a program that will parse the results and automatically submit the split times for Top Ten consideration. I filled out ONE split form, just in case, but have another that would be good if the automatic procedure works for which I did not submit a form. That will be a good test of whether the system works.

If your time from the individual swim really does show up in the Top Ten list, then hopefully you shouldn't have a problem using it for USAS verification.

As for the relay leadoff splits, I was told that those still needed to be done on paper, with advance notification to the meet officials.

TheGoodSmith
May 6th, 2008, 05:07 PM
I was informed the same confusing message regarding relay lead offs by one of the officials. They said that the officials at the timing table would automatically record the splits for verification and log them accordingly and that I didn't need to do anything. Then the next day I was told to fill out a paper with the event and time to submit to them for verification.

I have no idea what will happen now.


John Smith

chowmi
May 6th, 2008, 05:43 PM
Thank you guys for your input. I was watching one of the Smith's 100 free(?) 46.8 or 46.7 (?) split that was noted as a record, and it is not (yet?) submitted to event rankings (aka current top times), so I took that as a good sign that splits were not uploaded yet, or that they may not be before the final compilation of top tens.

I hope, I hope my time counts - it maaaayyyyy be a current #1 time; can't find any faster swims in SWIMS and just YMCA Masters Nationals to go!!!

And it is so ironic that I am trying to get USMS times to count for USA -S when all I want to do is swim those 50's ---- to turn around and have them count for USMS again!! heehee!!!

pakman044
May 6th, 2008, 07:44 PM
For individual freestyle, breaststroke, and butterfly (and the IM butterfly leadoff), you can request an initial split at any time before the end of the meet. 103.13.1B(1).

For individual backstroke, you MUST request your initial split BEFORE the heat. 103.13.1B(2). This is identical to USA Swimming rules (the turn judge must make sure you execute a legal backstroke finish at the initial distance).

For relay takeoffs, all takeoff requests must be made BEFORE your heat (103.13.1B(2)). In addition, the second swimmer may NOT start in the water (103.13.1D). And finally, the relay must be completed without disqualification, a distinct difference from USA Swimming rules (103.13.1C) (i.e., if there's an early takeoff violation or stroke infraction in a subsequent leg, your leadoff split does not count).

For NTV/OVC/USA Swimming observations, that's up to the LSC that's observing the meet and whether or not the meet is being swim observed (only the swims requested up front are observed) or blanket observed (all swims observed, and then non-USA-S swimmers removed). In order for your observed swim to count, you have to provide your USA Swimming ID number, but I think it can vary whether it may or must happen before/during/after the meet.

I can empathize how painful getting a split entered can be (I did this at a meet in April, and no one knew what I was trying to do). It may be good in the future if someone summarizes the split rules and inserts this in the meet information on site.

Patrick King

meldyck
May 6th, 2008, 08:05 PM
For individual freestyle, breaststroke, and butterfly (and the IM butterfly leadoff), you can request an initial split at any time before the end of the meet. 103.13.1B(1).


Patrick,

it is apparently (we'll see if it works out that way!) this part that has changed as a result of Walt Reid's new contribution.

I was forcefully told at the clerk of course table that I needn't fill out a form to have a split considered for Top Ten but, if I was old fashioned, I could anyway. So, I filled out one form and left one split unrequested to see if the automatic system would indeed work.

chowmi
May 6th, 2008, 08:12 PM
Here is the email response from Ann:

"Yes, they will be submitted- it's just taking a little extra time.
I think we should be able to add you to the SWIMS database list. It
will let you know onlyl if we can not!
-Ann"

So it looks really promising. I'll try to post another entry if and when I see my event posted to SWIMS.

pakman044
May 6th, 2008, 10:41 PM
Patrick,

it is apparently (we'll see if it works out that way!) this part that has changed as a result of Walt Reid's new contribution.

I was forcefully told at the clerk of course table that I needn't fill out a form to have a split considered for Top Ten but, if I was old fashioned, I could anyway. So, I filled out one form and left one split unrequested to see if the automatic system would indeed work.

There's no reason you couldn't do it this way for individual free, breast, fly, and IM leadoffs, since nothing special has to be observed and paid attention to. That being said, just like in USA Swimming, the rule does indicate that for the time to be official, the split must be requested:


103.13.1 An official time shall be achieved in a USMS-sanctioned competition or -recognized event in accordance with all applicable rules. It may be achieved in: ...
B An initial distance within a longer event or relay, provided the swimmer:
(1) Notifies the meet referee in writing of the intent to record an initial split time prior to the conclusion of the meet,
(2) Makes the written request prior to the swim for relay leadoff splits and for initial backstroke distances in individual backstroke events,
(3) Completes the initial distance with a legal finish and
(4) Completes the event without being disqualified.

And 105.2.2B also says that "[i]n an individual event other than backstroke, the request to have a split time recorded is brought in writing to the attention of the meet referee prior to the conclusion of the meet[.]"

Now why should it matter if this process is being expedited to make things go quicker and easier? The concern I would have is that this ought to be applied to EVERY meet, not just Nationals or some meets. Otherwise, it's not really fair or equitable--and I'm not particularly sure that electronic results (i.e., CL2/HY3 or Meet Manager backups) are available for every meet, which means that some meets would need split request forms and some wouldn't.

But don't get me wrong--I think this is a good idea in the grand scheme of things that makes for a better consideration to Top 10 times. But unless that's the rule applied at all meets, I'm certainly not in favor of it.

Patrick King

knelson
May 7th, 2008, 12:34 AM
But unless that's the rule applied at all meets, I'm certainly not in favor of it.

My take is that it's nice to have the splits be 'automatic,' but you shouldn't assume they are. If you think you might set a record, get a top ten time, etc. you should always inquire at the clerk of course table whether or not you need to submit an actual split request. They probably get sick of answering the same question over and over, but oh well.

matysekj
May 7th, 2008, 11:18 AM
Thank you guys for your input. I was watching one of the Smith's 100 free(?) 46.8 or 46.7 (?) split that was noted as a record, and it is not (yet?) submitted to event rankings (aka current top times), so I took that as a good sign that splits were not uploaded yet, or that they may not be before the final compilation of top tens.

I don't have tools available to insert all splits as individual swims for the meet results database (which feeds the event rankings on this site), so they will not show up there. However, in the past the meet host has provided all the requested splits as separate swims that we've been able to upload to the meet results database. If that happens this year, those splits will be included in the meet results database. Personally, I wouldn't want the first 50 of a 1650 of mine to show up in the meet results database as an individual 50 swim. I'd only want it to show up if I explicitly requested it.

The first time I heard of Walt's tool to extract all splits that don't need referee confirmation for top ten consideration was in the pre-meet meeting at Austin. We were told there that split requests weren't required, and that was news to me as well as to others. If I hear any more details, I'll post here. Note that since only the actual top 10 at the end of the year are made public and not the thousands of swims considered for top 10, this situation is a little different than that of the meet results database. In this case, it really doesn't matter that your incredibly slow initial 50 of a 1650 was considered for top 10 and rejected - it simply won't show anywhere as an individual 50 swim unless it cracks the top 10 list for the 50.

SwimRobin
May 7th, 2008, 12:20 PM
Jim,

I filled out a split verification form for my first 500 of my 1000 - it was a very fast 500 for me. They also tried to talk me out of completing the form. I would love to have that split show up in the meet results. Please let us know if this can be resolved.

BTW - it was great visiting with you last weekend!

Robin

Jeff Commings
May 7th, 2008, 12:20 PM
I didn't think to do this last year in Federal Way for my 50 back leadoff split on the medley relay, and then I saw the time I did listed in the Top 10. So I didn't do anything this year.

That Guy
May 7th, 2008, 01:36 PM
They also tried to talk me out of completing the form.

How come?

SwimRobin
May 7th, 2008, 02:59 PM
How come?

I received the same response that Meldyck received - that it was not necessary to complete the split verification form because they would automatically be submitting splits for Top Ten recognition. For me, Top Ten is really not the concern - I just would like to have the split count for an official time.

Robin

Doug Martin
May 12th, 2008, 10:50 AM
Heard anything about the posting of splits, either for the meet results or top ten?



The first time I heard of Walt's tool to extract all splits that don't need referee confirmation for top ten consideration was in the pre-meet meeting at Austin. We were told there that split requests weren't required, and that was news to me as well as to others. If I hear any more details, I'll post here.

matysekj
May 12th, 2008, 11:59 AM
All splits for freestyle, butterfly, breaststroke and IM events, as well as all lead-off splits for non-DQ'd relays have been collected and are being submitted for top 10 consideration.

The meet results database is a different story. We're trying to get hold of the list of requested splits from the forms submitted at the meet and upload just those splits to the meet results database. That is, if the forms are still available. It's not clear yet if they were kept once the news about top 10 and records submission was available. If you'd like a particular split logged in the meet results database as a separate swim, PM or email me with your name, the event and the split distance requested. We'll eventually get them in there. We will not upload all splits from the meet as separate swims, which would needlessly clog the results database. Most people would not want the lead-off 50 of their 1000 to be shown as a separate 50 swim, as it doesn't represent what they can do in a 50.

chowmi
May 12th, 2008, 08:04 PM
This is awesome news! What a bonus for leading off on SMU's "C" medley relay. It all started with "Michelle, can you swim backstroke?" And I juuuust might make top ten in the 50 back....it'll be close!!

Don't want to press my luck...but here goes....never hurts to ask....what's the story on Austin National times & splits for USA-S SWIMS? I emailed Ann Nellis back with my USA number; is anything else required? My 50 free split from the 100 is not reflected in SWIMS as of today.

Kathy Casey
May 15th, 2008, 02:12 AM
Jim is correct. Your splits, including relay lead-off splits, will automatically be submitted for USMS Top 10. Those splits count as official times and you can view your split times on the meet results. As one of you noted, that also happened at the Federal Way meet.

Three things have to be in place for splits from nationals to be automatically recorded as official times for USMS purposes:
1. the technology has to be available to search and record all splits except for splits from individual backstroke events and disqualifications,
2. the officials have to agree to watch all relays for a second swimmer starting in the water, and
3. a written request has to be submitted for all splits for all swimmers from all events except individual backstroke events and disqualifications.

This is within the rules. It is not required for nationals. It is an option. Some meet hosts find it easier to process all the splits rather than a 100 or so. Some officials find it easier to watch all relays for a second swimmer starting in the water than to consciously watch a few specific relays for that. This is a cooperative effort among the meet host, the officials, and the technology/results team, and all must agree or it doesn’t happen.

Kathy Casey, Chair
USMS Rules Committee