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JMiller
May 7th, 2008, 01:04 AM
Edited - no unsolicited advertising here!

(thread kept in place due to lots of replies unrelated to this ad)

Jazz Hands
May 7th, 2008, 01:48 AM
Let's go to Never Never Land! (http://youtube.com/watch?v=cq56bjyBft0)

geochuck
May 7th, 2008, 01:52 AM
Michael Jackson wanted to patent a skin color changing product.


I think you are barking up the wrong tree J. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkfwZjLHKnQ

JMiller
May 7th, 2008, 01:57 AM
It's interesting how quickly people can judge something they know nothing about.

aquageek
May 7th, 2008, 06:36 AM
A fool and his money are soon parted.

geochuck
May 7th, 2008, 07:59 AM
There are two certain things in our lives.

Death and Taxes.

The Egyptians built Pyramids. Do I see a Pyramid - scheme?.

I cleaned our carpets yesterday. I just found out that ageing is catching up. Hardest work I have ever done. It would have been better to pay someone to do it.

As William Hung says “Whatever you believe in, and if you keep trying, you can eventually succeed,” http://tvguide.sympatico.msn.ca/Hung+trades+music+for+mathematics/TVNews/Articles/080422_william_hung_teaches_MH.htm?isfa=1

CreamPuff
May 7th, 2008, 08:59 AM
I'd rather age.

Paul Smith
May 7th, 2008, 09:03 AM
Funny that I see a bunch of the Dara worshippers on here bashing this....guess they missed her interview last night which touched on the massive quantities of this kind of stuff she takes.

waves101
May 7th, 2008, 09:06 AM
I believe this qualifies as unsolicited advertising. A no-no in the forums.
Darn, I did miss that interview though!

CreamPuff
May 7th, 2008, 09:06 AM
Funny that I see a bunch of the Dara worshippers on here bashing this....guess they missed her interview last night which touched on the massive quantities of this kind of stuff she takes.

I like Dara. Doesn't mean I want to be her or train like her.

geochuck
May 7th, 2008, 09:24 AM
What does Dick Pound think???

Is it legal?

Paul Smith
May 7th, 2008, 09:32 AM
I like Dara. Doesn't mean I want to be her or train like her.


Ahhh...but haven't we been chiding you a bit on training to hard with the kiddos? Based on what you've shared with us you already are training harder than her...granted you may not be dropping a $100k a year on massage, chiro, personal trainers and supplements but are you telling me you don't wish you could recover a tad faster than you do right now? If you had that extra income and the freedom to train like she does would you?

Getting old and wanting to train hard get progressively more challenging, the fact is training smarter and resting more become the more important factor as we age...and there are a LOT of people out there who feel supplements (legal and illegal) help this...in Dara's case it means 6+ different bottles set out with some products that can old be bought in Germany that I've never heard of.

aquageek
May 7th, 2008, 09:47 AM
F-I-S-H-Y. That whole story smelled to high heaven. The legal only in Germany junk. The self righteous trip to USADA.

But, what got me was the inhaler 30 minutes before every RACE. It's a 25 second race. That really bothers me.

The Fortress
May 7th, 2008, 09:56 AM
F-I-S-H-Y. That whole story smelled to high heaven. The legal only in Germany junk. The self righteous trip to USADA.

But, what got me was the inhaler 30 minutes before every RACE. It's a 25 second race. That really bothers me.

I wish I had seen the Dara interview ... Forgot to DVR it.

Quite a bit of stuff is legal in Europe well before being legalized in the US. FDA review and approval is unbelieveably ponderous.

Does Dara have asthma? Can one hit off an inhaler really be performance enhancing?

Some people with severe allergies and asthma do need an inhaler. By Sunday afternoon, I could barely breathe in the pool area in Austin and had a hacking cough. One of my teammates had trouble finishing her races because of poor air quality/excess chlorination. When imspoiled forgot to use her inhaler at zones, she couldn't finish her race.

Kristina: I think Paul got you there. As I recall, you were trying to do doubles, but couldn't recover. You seem pretty darn motivated to improve even more, even though you're already a superstar! Frankly, if I had the time and bucks, I'd definitely spend more on recovery items like massage.

geochuck
May 7th, 2008, 10:03 AM
About the inhaler http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/video/videopage?videoId=3384518&categoryId=3060647&n8pe6c=2

aquageek
May 7th, 2008, 10:04 AM
Does Dara have asthma? Can one hit off an inhaler really be performance enhancing?


I'm not at all denying some people, like you, have asthma. She has some respiratory condition diagnosed in the mid 90s. That seems a far cry from your asthma. Further, the medicine she inhales prior to every race (mind you, it did not mention she inhales it before every practice) is controlled by anti-doping and she's careful to comply. Still...

It's the sum of the story, not the individual items, such as the asthma.

tjburk
May 7th, 2008, 10:07 AM
There are two certain things in our lives.

Death and Taxes.

The Egyptians built Pyramids. Do I see a Pyramid - scheme?.

I cleaned our carpets yesterday. I just found out that ageing is catching up. Hardest work I have ever done. It would have been better to pay someone to do it.

As William Hung says “Whatever you believe in, and if you keep trying, you can eventually succeed,” http://tvguide.sympatico.msn.ca/Hung+trades+music+for+mathematics/TVNews/Articles/080422_william_hung_teaches_MH.htm?isfa=1


George, don't you mean Death and Consequences?

The Fortress
May 7th, 2008, 10:16 AM
I'm not at all denying some people, like you, have asthma. She has some respiratory condition diagnosed in the mid 90s. That seems a far cry from your asthma. Further, the medicine she inhales prior to every race (mind you, it did not mention she inhales it before every practice) is controlled by anti-doping and she's careful to comply. Still...

It's the sum of the story, not the individual items, such as the asthma.

I just listened to the interview that George posted. That's a freaking lot of supplements! 10 scoops of amino acid supplements a day as just 1/6 of her supplements?! Is there any solid evidence that amino acids really promote the natural production of human growth hormone? If such evidence is ultimately produced (I'm assuming the evidence is a bit murky), there wouldn't seem to be much difference between "natural" promotion of HGH and injections.

(I don't use my inhaler all the time. I try to limit it to attacks of bronchitis, wheezing or poor air quality conditions .. wouldn't go running without it in the spring or fall. I don't want to have any more albuterol/steroid crap in my system than necessary. The long term effects are still largely unknown. I've switched from flonase to astilene for that reason.)

Paul Smith
May 7th, 2008, 10:23 AM
I want to be real clear about this...I'm all for LEGAL supplements, always have been.

My only point was that some folks wanted to pooh pooh this thread/testimonial right out of the gate saying how big of a waste it is to try things like this...and as I pointed out they are some of the same people that stood up big time for Dara defending her use of just these kind of things to explain her success vs. anything illegal....sorry but you can't have it both ways!

(S)he....nothing personal in any way...I love to train and HATE that when I hit it hard one day it takes 2 days of recovery...even with creatine, cytomax, etc. And trust me...I win the big lottery you can rest assured I'll be hiring Dara's support staff to stretch and massage me daily...sadly however my lack of willpower means no giving up on the poor diet and love of wine/beer so I'm stuck with the extra 15lbs for like!

Geek....shades of Amy Van Dyken with the inhaler..GHJ went off big time on that and how she was taking hit after hit right before her races. I wonder what the effect is on exceeding recommended doses of that stuff is?

mctrusty
May 7th, 2008, 10:35 AM
Some people with severe allergies and asthma do need an inhaler. By Sunday afternoon, I could barely breathe in the pool area in Austin and had a hacking cough. One of my teammates had trouble finishing her races because of poor air quality/excess chlorination. When imspoiled forgot to use her inhaler at zones, she couldn't finish her race.



See, I thought that the TSC pool had good air circ, and did not seem chlorinated at all. I was under the impression that it had some kind of advanced filtering that didn't require chlorine, or at least used only low levels of it. One of my teammates, who is an asthmatic, commented several times on how "non-chlorinated" the pool seemed.

geochuck
May 7th, 2008, 10:35 AM
I listened to the experts in the past. I took 90 caps of wheat germ oil a day. (hi in vitamin E) I used to take 6 caps of vitamin B complex with Iron every day. I found out later I swam better with just eating good food.

A Canadian Olympic Rower was disqualified for using banned sustances. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/events/1996/olympics/daily/july21/laum.html

If you have a disease that interferes with your sport should it be legal to use drugs. I take 9 pills every day to control my blood pressure and my sugar. Should I really be allowed to compete.

Blood presure with medication 123 over 70. Blood sugar with medication 5.5 or near 5.5.

I don't want to age - I just looked at the date, May 19th is my birthday and I will be 75. I just realized I am getting older. It is better to age then the alternative...

The Fortress
May 7th, 2008, 10:42 AM
See, I thought that the TSC pool had good air circ, and did not seem chlorinated at all. I was under the impression that it had some kind of advanced filtering that didn't require chlorine, or at least used only low levels of it. One of my teammates, who is an asthmatic, commented several times on how "non-chlorinated" the pool seemed.


It wasn't the competition pool. It was the diving well, where I personally spent much more time. My friend who had trouble breathing asked about it and was told there were high amounts of chlorine in it (she was also just recovering from bronchitis). Apart from that, being in a pool environment for 10 hours a day for 3 days just does not agree with everyone's respiratory system. However, I agree the facility was way better than most. As I said, I didn't notice any breathing issues until Sunday afternoon.

As for George's baiting post, that's ridiculous. Of course you can compete with a medical issue as long as you're taking the correctly prescribed dose of the drug. AVD-type usage is clearly improper and not medically necessary.

Paul Smith
May 7th, 2008, 10:59 AM
[QUOTE=The Fortress;132746]It wasn't the competition pool. It was the diving well, where I personally spent much more time.[QUOTE]

Hmmm...my impression was you spent most of your time sneaking into the mens locker room checking out the "current events" poste over the urinals?

By the way....you still owe me my drinks from the "whining ban" that was broken pre-Austin!

CreamPuff
May 7th, 2008, 11:00 AM
Based on what you've shared with us you already are training harder than her...

I think this was the best slam I've received to date on this board.

So Paul, let me get this right.

I train HARDER than DARA = My times and USMS rankings
OUCH!!! :laugh2:

So basically, according to a USMS multiple national record holder, I SUCK beyond belief and had better quit this sport ASAP and move to Germany for noodling and supplements. Heck, I don't think even 90 caps of wheat germ oil a day or truckloads of Glutathione can help this poor soul.

Paul Smith
May 7th, 2008, 11:20 AM
I think this was the best slam I've received to date on this board.

So Paul, let me get this right.

I train HARDER than DARA = My times and USMS rankings
OUCH!!! :laugh2:

So basically, according to a USMS multiple national record holder, I SUCK beyond belief and had better quit this sport ASAP and move to Germany for noodling and supplements. Heck, I don't think even 90 caps of wheat germ oil a day or truckloads of Glutathione can help this poor soul.

(S)he...the only person who should pursue a career of noodling, inhalers and German supplemants while residing overseas is Geek.

Let me shae some thoughts on masters swimming which were brought back into focus at the meet. Far to many people get sucked into the masters swimming "black hole" because they either did OK or poorly...so they make the decision to follow the "more is better" regime.

How many people reading this post got back into training on Monday or Tuesday? Forgive me for being blunt...but that was stupid. The older we get the more important it is we allow the body to heal...that means at least 2-4 weeks per year of complete rest.

How many people reading this that swam poorly not only got back into the pool on Monday or Tuesday and felt it was going to take more/harder training to get better? Lots. The reality is it will take less time/training and far more specialized workouts...with more rest/recovery. Lots of people have heard me preach this for years, Floswimming has interviews with Rich A, SVDL & Josh Davis saying the same things...so how many of you will listen?

Fort....you rested 3 weeks and said it was to much because you got tired at the end of the meet and ran out of gas. Newsflash...you got tired because your old and swam to many events. We all were exhausted and the reality is as we get into older swimming 10 races in days is to much if you expect to be fast in all of them.

So here's the challenge/question...can any of you put aside the first and primary motivation that keeps you training which is fear of fat....and train specifially to RACE fast...not workout fast? Subtle change in mindset but significant in terms of how you approach your working out.

It means that you will face ridicule when you move over to a slower lane, put on a snorkel, go last (which every single swimmer should own) and work on absolute perfect technique. It means instead of pushing thru a workout of garbage yards when you a feeling like crap you climb out and go home. It means more dedicated time lifting vs. swimming to get stronger, it means working on starts/turns 3x a week all season...at the beginning of practice when your fresh not at the end...same for quality days.

knelson
May 7th, 2008, 11:36 AM
How many people reading this post got back into training on Monday or Tuesday?

Ahem...no comment :)

You make good points, Paul. I'm definitely planning to do some things differently with my training over the summer. One of my coaches pretty much laid it on the line for me a couple weeks ago when he told me I could train my ass off and it wouldn't really get me much further unless I make some basic changes to my stroke technique.

The snorkel is in my equipment bag where it has usually languished in the past. This summer it will be coming out more.

The Fortress
May 7th, 2008, 11:42 AM
You're totally right -- I am old! Glad that explains the last length of my 100 fly!

I have no plans whatsoever to get back in the pool until sometime next week. I likewise have no "fear of fat" in the pool. I really do mostly quality sprint training. I'm fighting fat by cross-training. I was happy with my times at Nats, including that painful 100 fly, and think they reflect my training. However, I think I've had similar results in LC when tapering 2 weeks and doing a bit more speedwork. Fortunately, I don't plan on doing a full taper until maybe Indy!

Many people doing hard core training like to train more than compete. So for them it makes sense.

aquageek
May 7th, 2008, 11:58 AM
Many people doing hard core training like to train more than compete. So for them it makes sense.

This is a good point. For many who don't see a big meet as the only thing in their lives, getting back to training is just part of the lifestyle. Personally, I go nuts if I miss more than a day. I might go light or do something differently but sitting around just for the sake of sitting around doesn't work for many. For me, the day after a hard event is the perfect time for an EZ swim or a medium run.

Paul Smith
May 7th, 2008, 12:05 PM
Fort, your a stud and a rock star and you had a great meet...I think you are going 100% in the right direction. My point to you was that IMHO you weren't feeling fatigue at the end of the meet because you tapered to much...but rather because as all of us get older the reality of swimming so many events is that were going to feel it...hard...no matter how in shape and how much we rest/don't rest. Dennis Baker said at worlds that 1 event per day was it...pure focus, pure commitment to excelling at one thing...I admire that and am moving more and more in that direction.

Listen...anyone who is a workout animal and is clear that is what they want to be I'm all for it...I struggle in my own training because I love to workout and less is more is a struggle for me....but I look at my own motivation/goals as a spectrum and remind myself that trying to train quality when completely broken down doesn't work.

At the far end and the single biggest priority for me it's social, then racing, followed by general overall conditioning. So when and if I workout it tends to follow that order-progression. What I choose is completely different that a lot of folks and thats fine and what this is all about. I bring up the points I'm making because of the discussion being somewhat slanted towards competing...and if you want to improve in this area and are serious about it what many people are doing won't work.

JMiller
May 7th, 2008, 12:08 PM
HEY! They took away the link in my signature, but allowed the thread to stay open... I should say thank you... this is going to be a discussion that is hard to ignore.

Look, how many other people have links in their signature? Why signal me out...? I am just sharing what is going to be important news in the future, I want to be ahead of the curve.

Paul Smith
May 7th, 2008, 12:11 PM
A similar discussion going on a TRC, this link was just posted which I think is very interesting:

http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/speakers.php?sid=560&vid=9588

Get...I agree but I repeat I'm talking from the perspective of just being at nationals and talking to dozens of people about how they swam and what they planned on doing next.

JMiller
May 7th, 2008, 12:13 PM
Is it legal?

It is legal George, and it has the approval of many of the top scientists of our day.

geochuck
May 7th, 2008, 12:19 PM
I guess because you refferred to it in your post and linked that way to a sales pitch. I never refer to my signature links.

HEY! They took away the link in my signature, but allowed the thread to stay open... I should say thank you... this is going to be a discussion that is hard to ignore.

Look, how many other people have links in their signature? Why signal me out...? I am just sharing what is going to be important news in the future, I want to be ahead of the curve.

LindsayNB
May 7th, 2008, 12:20 PM
I don't want to age - I just looked at the date, May 19th is my birthday and I will be 75.

That means that you are only 34.53s away from setting a Canadian national record SCM, or 35.24s LCM. I'm sure you could do it! Or 42.83s away from a 50 fly SCM National record. As the ads say just do it!
:canada::cheerleader::canada:

JMiller
May 7th, 2008, 12:21 PM
Thanks Paul, for what you've been writing. Yes, I'm the same, there is such a thing as a breakthrough in science! Just look at the LZR suit!

Listen people... We have a choice, that's why we swim.
Please, just ask me.



I want to be real clear about this...I'm all for LEGAL supplements, always have been.

My only point was that some folks wanted to pooh pooh this thread/testimonial right out of the gate saying how big of a waste it is to try things like this...and as I pointed out they are some of the same people that stood up big time for Dara defending her use of just these kind of things to explain her success vs. anything illegal....sorry but you can't have it both ways!

geochuck
May 7th, 2008, 12:23 PM
Lindsay I would have to give up my trip to Mexico, I age better there.

JMiller
May 7th, 2008, 12:45 PM
I guess because you refferred to it in your post and linked that way to a sales pitch. I never refer to my signature links.


Look, my intention is primarily to share information with you, people who have similar interests.

The 100 freestyle that I did a few weekends ago was the 7th fastest of my entire life. At age 31 I'm very proud of that. This race was back to back, right after the 100 IM, usually I would have been totally depleted for another 25-30 mninutes. I've only been swimming 3 times a week, and some dryland, but other than that I've been amazed by how my body has been recovering and adapting. It has been six weeks now since my mother first told me about the (NOT A SALES PITCH) link, and I'm so excited, not because of the $$, but because of the results!! How could I not share this?

CreamPuff
May 7th, 2008, 01:18 PM
So here's the challenge/question...can any of you put aside the first and primary motivation that keeps you training which is fear of fat....and train specifially to RACE fast...not workout fast?

I've gained weight by training more, so I don't think fear of fat is the primary motivation. So let's add "fat" in with slow and old. :laugh2:

Seriously though, how do I get in the mindset of being happy training hours a week (even if it's just say 3 hours a week) for a race that is a few minutes or a few seconds? What should my motivation be to train to RACE fast?

I figure I had better enjoy the training most as it's 95% of my swimming experience. I look forward to each practice for the sake of the practice. The meets are ancillary.

The Fortress
May 7th, 2008, 03:48 PM
Fort, your a stud and a rock star and you had a great meet...I think you are going 100% in the right direction. My point to you was that IMHO you weren't feeling fatigue at the end of the meet because you tapered to much...but rather because as all of us get older the reality of swimming so many events is that were going to feel it...hard...no matter how in shape and how much we rest/don't rest. Dennis Baker said at worlds that 1 event per day was it...pure focus, pure commitment to excelling at one thing...I admire that and am moving more and more in that direction.

Listen...anyone who is a workout animal and is clear that is what they want to be I'm all for it...I struggle in my own training because I love to workout and less is more is a struggle for me....but I look at my own motivation/goals as a spectrum and remind myself that trying to train quality when completely broken down doesn't work.

At the far end and the single biggest priority for me it's social, then racing, followed by general overall conditioning. So when and if I workout it tends to follow that order-progression. What I choose is completely different that a lot of folks and thats fine and what this is all about. I bring up the points I'm making because of the discussion being somewhat slanted towards competing...and if you want to improve in this area and are serious about it what many people are doing won't work.

Aw thanks. I still have loads of things to improve on. (Starts and turns for instance!) That helps keep me motivated.

I also think it's beneficial to occasionally try new things and mix up the training. I was all about the monofin in the fall, switched to mega kicking in the winter and then went back to speed training. Think I'm going to spin more this summer when it's too hot to run.

I'm with Geek on the working out. Hate sitting around tapering. The way I get around it somewhat is by taking an occasional break from meets. After swimming in or planning to swim in meets in meets in March, April, May, June and August this year, I'm taking a major break. Maybe only one meet between Nov. and early March. That way I can train without fretting about rest. It also allows me to "bank" some time at home before I put in a request for travel. lol I'm gunning for Indy.

Agree with you, Paul, on the excessive events. I almost scratched the 100 IM on Sat. Might have been better off if I had. I always have the urge to swim more events, but I have to curb that urge if I want maximum speed. I found my 100 fly-50 back double pretty arduous on Sunday. 40 minutes was just not enough recovery time for me, and no one in my backstroke heat had swum the 100 fly. In general, everyone looked pretty weary by the end of the meet. I think the 100 free could potentially have been much faster.

(S)he: You are hot speedster chick. If you want to keep doing the distance events, train away!

swimcat
May 7th, 2008, 03:49 PM
RE: dara torres
on the supplements....http://www.mark-warnecke.de/amsport
there is a english flag icon to click on to read the web page.
i read the ingredients and it is similar to several of these so called recovery and aminoacid fixes in europe. I used to drink this orange crap when i lived in italy and all it did was race my heart(100% caffeine) and give me extreme stomach cramps(creatine). it was sold as a recovery aid.

JMiller
May 7th, 2008, 06:11 PM
Ya, I know what you mean... I've actually been very skeptical about these things in the past, you have to be. I don't drink caffeine for that very reason, it makes my heart beat faster than I prefer.

This is different, and there is an abundance of scientific evidence that supports Dr.Robert Keller's research. Oxidation damage causes inflamation in the cells, and glutathione reduces that reaction. Yet, eating the stuff doesn't work because it doesn't get through the digestion process. After years of clinical research Dr.Keller has figured out how to make your body produce and absorb glutathione.


RE: dara torres
on the supplements
i read the ingredients and it is similar to several of these so called recovery and aminoacid fixes in europe. I used to drink this orange crap when i lived in italy and all it did was race my heart(100% caffeine) and give me extreme stomach cramps(creatine). it was sold as a recovery aid.

ALM
May 7th, 2008, 06:49 PM
RE: dara torres
on the supplements....http://www.mark-warnecke.de/amsport
there is a english flag icon to click on to read the web page.
i read the ingredients and it is similar to several of these so called recovery and aminoacid fixes in europe. I used to drink this orange crap when i lived in italy and all it did was race my heart(100% caffeine) and give me extreme stomach cramps(creatine). it was sold as a recovery aid.

Swimcat found the supplement that Dara mentioned by name in the ESPN interview. I looked at the web site and found this interesting statement by the guy who is selling the stuff (Mark Warnecke). The bold highlighting is mine:


"For over ten years now, I have focused my efforts on amino acids, protein products and muscle enhancers and how they affect the human body. During countless long night shifts, I waded through hundreds of studies and scientific analyses. Following detailed research into protein products and muscle enhancers, I turned my attention to amino acids and was able to chalk up my first real meaningful successes with pure amino acids in the 1995/96 season. The intravenous application available then, however, is not affordable for long term use (approx. 40 EUR/day), nor is it ethically acceptable. Today, the application form is also no longer acceptable due to anti-doping regulations. I unreservedly share this view."


If I read that correctly, the stuff is illegal (from an anti-doping point of view) if administered by IV but apparently not if ingested orally. The page where I got the above quote is:

http://www.mark-warnecke.de/amsport/amsport1_engl.html

Edit: Hmmm, just found some more interesting things on that page:

"One professional cyclist describes an "increased blood circulation" effect on strained leg muscles, even under maximum impact. This is due in part to the high proportion of arginine contained in AMsport®. Arginine is an amino acid that widens the lymphatic vessels.... Thanks to its related metabolic path (nitrogen monoxide (NO)), arginine is known in America as 'natural Viagra'...."


Also interesting - Mark Warnecke was a breaststroker from Germany who, at age 35, won the world title in the 50m Breaststroke at the 2005 World Aquatics Championships in Montreal, Canada. That made him the oldest swimming world champion since 1971.

JMiller
May 7th, 2008, 07:30 PM
This is due in part to the high proportion of arginine contained in AMsport®. Arginine is an amino acid that widens the lymphatic vessels.... Thanks to its related metabolic path (nitrogen monoxide (NO)),

Yikes! ya, arginine and NO, I decided to stay away from those products a long time ago.

CreamPuff
May 8th, 2008, 09:01 AM
As I recall, you were trying to do doubles, but couldn't recover.

Fort, I meant to congratulate you on your AWESOME Nationals meet. What a 50 Fly!! :bow::bow::bow:

As a kid, I couldn't recover from doubles either (so ended up not doing them!) So I don't think it's an age issue. I was 14-15 at the time! I think it's more of an "I STINK" issue!

hofffam
May 8th, 2008, 10:07 AM
It wasn't the competition pool. It was the diving well, where I personally spent much more time. My friend who had trouble breathing asked about it and was told there were high amounts of chlorine in it (she was also just recovering from bronchitis). Apart from that, being in a pool environment for 10 hours a day for 3 days just does not agree with everyone's respiratory system. However, I agree the facility was way better than most. As I said, I didn't notice any breathing issues until Sunday afternoon.



No doubt in my mind it was not the chlorine. It was excessive use of inhalers by Masters swimmers.

All kinds of weird chemicals being dispensed in that building over the weekend! :roids:

gull
May 8th, 2008, 12:50 PM
Is there any solid evidence that amino acids really promote the natural production of human growth hormone?

Still controversial--depends on which study you read. Most did not use the mega doses that the athletes have tried. Apparently Dara and her entourage believe in it. Or maybe the supplements are a smokescreen.

JMiller
May 9th, 2008, 12:27 AM
Still controversial--depends on which study you read. Most did not use the mega doses that the athletes have tried. Apparently Dara and her entourage believe in it. Or maybe the supplements are a smokescreen.

Either way, I didn't know Dara was taking so many supplements... I'm firmly against arginine, and nitrogen oxide... just my philosophy...

Although isolated protien is very helpful, and this is where the discussion goes a little sideways... Isolated protien is essentially engineered food, it doesn't occur "naturally". Yet, it isn't really "natural" to even train as obsessively as most ahletes do.. Yet, this isn't banned.

geochuck
May 9th, 2008, 08:45 AM
Would we not be better not to experiment with the unknowns and think more about our well being.

I have been neglecting the steady 3 or 4 times a day the testing of my blood sugar. Today I am going to start it up again after talking to my daughter. Janis was at a meeting yesterday afternoon. A friend of hers was taking minutes of a meeting she was at. Her friend slumped at the table and died. She was a diabetic.

All of these potions you get to enhance your abilities could be even more dangerous then you think, just watch the story about the East German athletes.

mctrusty
May 9th, 2008, 08:55 AM
Although isolated protien is very helpful, and this is where the discussion goes a little sideways... Isolated protien is essentially engineered food, it doesn't occur "naturally".


Steak protein is so much tastier.

geochuck
May 9th, 2008, 09:10 AM
You are right Steak is better.

I was at a meeting and talking about diet for swimmers. I told the group about my taking raw calves liver and shaving it very thin and eating it raw. I told the group about the benefits, how it improved our blood. Gave us a natural source of Iron. We got carried away with other things and I forgot to tell them I was pulling their legs.

The next day one of the Olympic backstrokers came up to me and said she had tried it , it really tasted strange and did I flavor it in anyway.

mctrusty
May 9th, 2008, 10:26 AM
Either way, I didn't know Dara was taking so many supplements... I'm firmly against arginine, and nitrogen oxide... just my philosophy...

Although isolated protien is very helpful, and this is where the discussion goes a little sideways... Isolated protien is essentially engineered food, it doesn't occur "naturally". Yet, it isn't really "natural" to even train as obsessively as most ahletes do.. Yet, this isn't banned.

Hmmm, I'm not sure what your use of quotes around natural implies. It seems to me to have different meanings in each sentence, and so the argument relies on some rhetorical sleight-of-hand. Whereas "naturally occurring" in the first part of the argument implies something produced through nature-as-a-force, "natural" in the second sentence, I think, is a commonly used synonym for "normal", a social construct.

Do you mean that it's not normal for some athletes to train as obsessively as they do? In a relatively sedentary society, it's not normal. But it's perfectly natural, in a genetic sense.

From a nature-as-a-force standpoint, humans are pretty well adapted to endurance training (http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/203165), and being an endurance predator may have served our species well at some point. Not that it takes much endurance these days to hit the Taco Bell drive-thru for fourthmeal, but our genes have much longer memories than our brains.

Couple that with the fact that it's natural, from an evolutionary standpoint, for some people to compete against themselves and others, and it's easy to see how training can turn into a lifestyle choice (not natural-as-normal, by some standards).

I think that the argument falls apart if you equalize the use of the word "natural".

Maybe this is just a long-winded way of saying what the quotation marks implied... :dunno:

JMiller
May 11th, 2008, 11:47 AM
You know, I hadn't really thought it through at the time, that moment was just streaming consciousness. That's the funny thing about writing through this medium, we can have a thought which would usually be fleeting in "nature", but somehow we elevate that moment to something sleightly greater.

To answer the question, yes and no, or no and yes depending on the whether.



Hmmm, I'm not sure what your use of quotes around natural implies. It seems to me to have different meanings in each sentence, and so the argument relies on some rhetorical sleight-of-hand. Whereas "naturally occurring" in the first part of the argument implies something produced through nature, "natural" in the second sentence, I think, is a commonly used synonym for "normal", a social construct.

Do you mean that it's not normal for some athletes to train as obsessively as they do? In a relatively sedentary society, it's not normal. But it's perfectly natural, in a genetic sense.

mctrusty
May 12th, 2008, 08:29 AM
You know, I hadn't really thought it through at the time, that moment was just streaming consciousness. That's the funny thing about writing through this medium, we can have a thought which would usually be fleeting in "nature", but somehow we elevate that moment to something sleightly greater.

To answer the question, yes and no, or no and yes depending on the whether.

:lolup:
That's awesome.

geochuck
May 12th, 2008, 10:49 AM
Is that something like write before you think?

Or

Only say what you want repeated.

Or

Old age is better then the alternative.

JMiller
May 12th, 2008, 12:00 PM
:lolup:
That's awesome.

Thanks!