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The Fortress
May 13th, 2008, 03:24 PM
As I crawled back into the pool today fat and out of shape, I wondered: Don't sprinters need some minimal aerobic work? I see that Ande is doing none whatsoever and Paul advises not "fighting fat" in the pool. I do a lot of race pace training and cross training. But still, is just a little aerobic work called for? I can tell I don't need any for 50s, but my 100s could use a little something. I don't think I have the substantial swimming aerobic base that people like Ande have because I was out of the pool for so many years .. So I'm either taking my 100s out too slow for fear of dying or actually dying. Does aerobic work help counter this? Or do I need more lactate work such as doing 100s with huge amounts of rest?

jim clemmons
May 13th, 2008, 03:34 PM
I don't know but I picked the middle one. At least it will give you the option of surviving a non-sprint event - maybe, hopefully...should you choose to swim a non-sprint event. :dunno:

geochuck
May 13th, 2008, 03:40 PM
Anything over a 50 is aerobic.

Sprinters need balanced work outs, a little of this, a little of that, then some of this and some of that.

knelson
May 13th, 2008, 03:44 PM
I think sprinters need aerobic work and none of your poll options are quite right. I think you should be doing some aerobic training throughout the season. It doesn't have to be a huge amount. Maybe a 1,000-2,000 yard/meter aerobic, short rest set most days.

ande
May 13th, 2008, 04:10 PM
sprinters need to be fast and strong

aerobic training can make sprinters slow and weak.

we become what we do

I don't think doing 10 x 100 on 1:10
will help you swim a faster 50

Swimming fast 15's, 25's & 50's with plenty rest
will help you swim a faster 50

Getting stronger from weights and dry land will help you swim a faster 50.

Rich Abrahams said
"one of the biggest mistakes sprinters make in practice is:
When they swim slow
they swim too fast
and
When they swim fast
they swim too slow.

Hope this helps,

ande

abc
May 13th, 2008, 04:17 PM
I definitely believe that you should do some aerobic stuff in your workouts if you’re a sprinter. The only thing that I might caution against in your case is your nagging injuries. I wouldn’t do so much aerobic stuff that it causes these injuries to severely worsen. I also wouldn’t sprint all out, everyday, hysterically until your shoulder completely blew out. In my opinion, it’s about moderation. Periodization, aerobic, anaerobic, lactic acid—these are just terms. Forget them and go by how you feel and what you know works best for you. Too often I see people getting caught up in the latest workout trend, whether it’s how to train or what suit to wear. Stop the over analysis and just swim. From what I understand, you already kick butt in the pool. Forget the crazies like Ande and Paul, that methodology has been scientifically proven through periodization studies to only work on other crazy people :D

The Fortress
May 13th, 2008, 04:19 PM
I think sprinters need aerobic work and none of your poll options are quite right. I think you should be doing some aerobic training throughout the season. It doesn't have to be a huge amount. Maybe a 1,000-2,000 yard/meter aerobic, short rest set most days.

Kirk, it never even occurred to me to do aerobic work "most" days. lol

Ande, I hear you. That's mostly what I've done. But how do you put some more punch in your 100s? I'd like to swim faster 100s too. I can't imagine doing a 200 without aerobic training ...

Thanks abc. I don't sprint all out everyday. I do listen to my shoulder. Having done so much race pace/mega rest work lately, I guess I'm just inclined to think I do need some aerobic work too. Not a lot of it, but more than I'm doing perhaps. Not really sure what "works best for me" though, as I'm still getting the hang of this training/tapering thing.

ande
May 13th, 2008, 04:27 PM
fort

to prepare for 100's
do fast 50's, 75's & 100's in practice
take a couple easy days a week

you can still swim a 200 just correctly split it
take it out a little easier than if you have been doing all the aerobic and hard distance training




Ande, I hear you. That's mostly what I've done. But how do you put some more punch in your 100s? I'd like to swim faster 100s too. I can't imagine doing a 200 without aerobic training ...

cdrcld
May 13th, 2008, 04:29 PM
Rich Abrahams said
"one of the biggest mistakes sprinters make in practice is:
When they swim slow
they swim too fast
and
When they swim fast
they swim too slow.

Hope this helps,

ande

Ande,

What does "when they swim slow they swim too fast mean?" I get the second half. And who is Rich?

Chris

knelson
May 13th, 2008, 04:31 PM
Just remember aerobic doesn't have to mean "long, slow and boring." Do some relatively short but challenging aerobic sets and 'aerobic' won't be such a dirty word, anymore.

Here's an example of something my team did last week:
3x (200@2:15, 150@2:15)
4x (100@1:05, 75@1:05)

We did some other stuff in between, but you get the idea. The 200 and 100 were at a pace where you had to swim pretty hard just to make the send-off, then you had a shorter swim to recover a little bit (but not too slow) before the next round.

In my opinion stuff like this is more enjoyable--and probably pays more dividends-- than 5x500 on 6:00.

cdrcld
May 13th, 2008, 04:37 PM
Just remember aerobic doesn't have to mean "long, slow and boring." Do some relatively short but challenging aerobic sets and 'aerobic' won't be such a dirty word, anymore.

Here's an example of something my team did last week:
3x (200@2:15, 150@2:15)
4x (100@1:05, 75@1:05)

We did some other stuff in between, but you get the idea. The 200 and 100 were at a pace where you had to swim pretty hard just to make the send-off, then you had a shorter swim to recover a little bit (but not too slow) before the next round.

In my opinion stuff like this is more enjoyable--and probably pays more dividends-- than 5x500 on 6:00.

I'm with you!!!! This is how I make the workouts.

ande
May 13th, 2008, 04:50 PM
chris

that means when a swimmer is supposed to be swimming slow and concentrating on form or warming up

they are holding too fast of a pace maybe with sloppy form or no regard to form.

IE
say they are doing 10 x 50 on 1:00
they are holding 35's instead of over 40

look up the 50 free records for
50 - 54, 55 - 59, & 60 - 64,

drop by:
http://www.usms.org/comp/tt/toptenind.php?SwimmerID=030HZ



Ande,

What does "when they swim slow they swim too fast mean?" I get the second half. And who is Rich?

Chris

geochuck
May 13th, 2008, 04:53 PM
Sorry Ande I posted before I read your last comment.


We can count on sayings, but what does he really mean?

Rich Abrahams said
"one of the biggest mistakes sprinters make in practice is:
When they swim slow
they swim too fast
and
When they swim fast
they swim too slow.

Does it mean we should not do any aerobic swimming, I don't think that is what he means. I would rather hear what he means from Rich then anyone else.

richabrahams
May 13th, 2008, 05:58 PM
George, et al,

Ande has interpreted what I meant correctly. If the intention is to swim slowly, e.g. warm up, recovery, drill, or low level aerobic work, go slow. Don't even look at the clock. These types of swims help to set up the fast swimming in practice which should be focused more on acheiving race pace.

Personally, I like to work on all the different energy systems, although not at the same workout. Since I sometimes (foolishly) compete in the 200 free, I do some high level aerobic work once or twice a week, but the sets are never more than 1,000 meters. An example would be 4 X 50's with 10 seconds rest (i.e. broken 200's) X 5 with about 2 minutes rest between the broken swims. I subtract the 30 seconds of rest intervals to get my cumulative time and try to be within 5 seconds of my best 200 time. Like tall Paul, I also like to get in high level aerobics while cross training. Nothing like climbing 2,500 feet on your mountain bike when the starting elevation is 10,000'.

I love low level aerobic work, especially long course outdoors. I find it meditative and restorative. Probably half my total yardage is in this category.

I have to be careful with the amount of high level sprint stuff I do because I tend to get stale and lose that truly explosive feeling. It's also much more tiring psychologically. This actually may just be a function of my age. Jazz Hands may be able to do it every workout.

Hope this helps,

Rich

Mswimming
May 13th, 2008, 05:59 PM
I think Fort touched on another issue that is important, too. While Sprint oriented work outs are great for swimmers with a strong training background from their youth, I'm not so sure its right for those with out it.


Kevin

geochuck
May 13th, 2008, 06:29 PM
Rich thanks

Ande did explain more thouroughly and I did not see his post before I posted. Your explanation is very complete and it is what I thought you meant. I am happy you did come foreward and put your own thoughts here.


George, et al,

Ande has interpreted what I meant correctly. If the intention is to swim slowly, e.g. warm up, recovery, drill, or low level aerobic work, go slow. Don't even look at the clock. These types of swims help to set up the fast swimming in practice which should be focused more on acheiving race pace.

Personally, I like to work on all the different energy systems, although not at the same workout. Since I sometimes (foolishly) compete in the 200 free, I do some high level aerobic work once or twice a week, but the sets are never more than 1,000 meters. An example would be 4 X 50's with 10 seconds rest (i.e. broken 200's) X 5 with about 2 minutes rest between the broken swims. I subtract the 30 seconds of rest intervals to get my cumulative time and try to be within 5 seconds of my best 200 time. Like tall Paul, I also like to get in high level aerobics while cross training. Nothing like climbing 2,500 feet on your mountain bike when the starting elevation is 10,000'.

I love low level aerobic work, especially long course outdoors. I find it meditative and restorative. Probably half my total yardage is in this category.

I have to be careful with the amount of high level sprint stuff I do because I tend to get stale and lose that truly explosive feeling. It's also much more tiring psychologically. This actually may just be a function of my age. Jazz Hands may be able to do it every workout.

Hope this helps,

Rich

Jazz Hands
May 13th, 2008, 07:00 PM
Here's what I wonder about using bicycling or spinning for aerobic capacity. A lot of the physiological adaptations happen on the level of the muscles. Maglischo's book goes into this in a lot of detail, and I don't remember the specifics. What I do recall is that much of the aerobic conditioning effect is specific to the working muscles. So if you are biking, that's not going to do anything for the conditioning of upper body swimming muscles. The effect will be limited to the legs and any central adaptations.

richabrahams
May 13th, 2008, 07:09 PM
Here's what I wonder about using bicycling or spinning for aerobic capacity. A lot of the physiological adaptations happen on the level of the muscles. Maglischo's book goes into this in a lot of detail, and I don't remember the specifics. What I do recall is that much of the aerobic conditioning effect is specific to the working muscles. So if you are biking, that's not going to do anything for the conditioning of upper body swimming muscles.

Brian,
I do the cross training because it's fun. If it happens to help my swimming, or not, no biggie. BTW, I had my biggest swimming breakthrough at age 53 after not swimming for about 4 years due to shoulder problems. I did, however, get totally addicted to mountain biking during that break. Probably just a coincidence.

Rich

The Fortress
May 13th, 2008, 09:41 PM
Personally, I like to work on all the different energy systems, although not at the same workout. Since I sometimes (foolishly) compete in the 200 free, I do some high level aerobic work once or twice a week, but the sets are never more than 1,000 meters. An example would be 4 X 50's with 10 seconds rest (i.e. broken 200's) X 5 with about 2 minutes rest between the broken swims. I subtract the 30 seconds of rest intervals to get my cumulative time and try to be within 5 seconds of my best 200 time. Like tall Paul, I also like to get in high level aerobics while cross training. Nothing like climbing 2,500 feet on your mountain bike when the starting elevation is 10,000'.

I love low level aerobic work, especially long course outdoors. I find it meditative and restorative. Probably half my total yardage is in this category.

I have to be careful with the amount of high level sprint stuff I do because I tend to get stale and lose that truly explosive feeling. It's also much more tiring psychologically. This actually may just be a function of my age. Jazz Hands may be able to do it every workout.

Hope this helps,

Rich

Thanks. That is what I suspected. Great set! Maybe the high octane aerobic work is preferable to the moderate work commonly associated with "garbage yards." I get a bit burned out with a high amount of high level sprint stuff as well. It's hard to do all the time. Same with meets.

I cross train for fun and fitness, not because it helps my swimming. Although there must be some overall fitness benefit. Or weight reduction, so less drag in the water. I wonder if cross training with running or spinning does more for those with big kicks or SDKs? Look at Chris S. with those biking legs smoking his underwaters. Or breaststrokers like Allen Stark. He bikes and it seems to pay off big time for him. Jeff Roddin spins too. Lots of world class swimmers spinning and cycling ...

quicksilver
May 13th, 2008, 10:31 PM
For what it's worth, I started doing a 100 yard swim for time at the end of practice on the easy days. Ala Ande.
The formula was two days a week with a bit more yardage and less rest. And two days a week recovery... less yards, more rest (more speed work).


After only a month of this my 100 times began dropping and there was a big gain in endurance for sprinting the entire four laps.
No wheels falling off the bus on the last lap. Consider the swim for time as the ultimate strength training.



Thanks for the thread Fort. Interesting to hear what others had to say.
And ...I enjoyed your interview Rich. Thanks for the inspiration.

CreamPuff
May 14th, 2008, 08:45 AM
My option is not listed.

It is, "What do these boys know anyway?" :joker::joker:

Review the advice given, but create your own plan that you enjoy and believe in. That will work.

Chris Stevenson
May 14th, 2008, 09:36 AM
I cross train for fun and fitness, not because it helps my swimming.

I think you have the right idea about cross-training. I am somewhat undecided about whether cycling helps my kicking, but mostly I think not. Certainly it is better than being on the couch...but should one skip swim workouts to bike, as a strategy to improve swimming? My own impression is no.

On the one hand, cycling increases leg strength (much) more than swimming does, and that is significant. It is also great for fitness and burning calories. The scenery is enjoyable too, and riding with a group is pleasantly sociable (as long as they aren't too hard core).

But it is not so good for upper body and I believe it reduces flexibility in the hams and lower back. I am not cycling much at all these days but kicking faster than I have in a long while. (It's a zero-sum game: more swimming/lifting means less cycling.) If I get a little tired of swimming or lifting in the future the pendulum may swing the other way for awhile. It is nice to have options, I don't always want to train exactly the same way.

Good cross-training for kicking: weights (legs) and core exercises.

About training for sprinting, you've gotten a lot of good advice from others. The only thing I would add is about broken sets (100s, 200s). They are great and we do them all the time, but don't depend on them solely for your "high lactate" days. Every so often you need to reproduce the lactate levels that you get at the end of a 100, to train your body to handle that and still swim fast and efficiently. Doing fast 100s on long intervals is a surefire way to do it, though painful (not something you do often, perhaps).

geochuck
May 14th, 2008, 10:02 AM
I still semi cross train and I did more when I was young. It helps for sure.

We ran, cycled, rowed, paddled cannoe and did lots of gym work.

JMiller
May 14th, 2008, 12:38 PM
This is an interesting question. The option I picked was, "Do some aerobic work at the beginning of your periodization cycle."

Although, I'm not sure this is the "best" answer. Periodization isn't really applicable for sprinters in the previous sense of the word, simply because sprinters should sprint, and often. Also, I disagree that there should be a mass-meter period for sprinters, say for 2-months, and then some taper sprints... you'll not adapt to the sprint program in time for the race... A good solid 6 months of sprinting is more likely to improve a racing result.

That being said, I do think a periodization program is useful, just on a different scale... like a two-week program that repeats for a year or more. All the elements should still be there, and here is the real catch... Distance-per-stroke training, which can be considered aerobic training, this can be very helpful. What a good sprinter needs, is maximum length, and strength of the stroke. Yet, when doing the DPS work the heart-rate threshold should be under 120 beats/minute, or less if possible, which is more like stretching in the water for maximum length, not really swimming, but more like walking with an elongated stride, very, very slowly. Here is an example of a two-week program that includes most elements of periodization, just over a short time-line, ideal for sprinters.


M - 800 mixed warm-up
4x50 build
8x25 1 easy/1 fast
3x400 count strokes, bring as low
as possible
Total - 2400m

T - 600 mixed warm-up
4x50 paddles only on :45
6x100 pull bouy, 25 fly/75 free
4x50 paddles only on :45
4x50 kick, best average on 2min
4x25 from dive FAST on 2:30
4x50 kick, best average on 2min
400 DPS
Total - 2500m

W - 800 mixed warm-up
6x50, free middle pool TURNS,
descend 1-6 on 2min
4x50, back middle pool TURNS,
descend 1-4 on 2min
2x50, fly middle pool Turns,
strong 1:30
3x50 from Dive, on 3min free/back/fly
Total - 1550m

T - 8 x 100 count strokes, descend counting
(even if it means kicking more on side)
8x15m fast, walk backs
8 x 100kick easy/50strong swim (Last one
Fast)3min
400 easy, DPS
Total - 2120m

F - 400 swim 400 kick 400 pull
4x50 kick descend to fast 1:30
10 x 200 descend 1-5, 6-10
5 back/5free, on 3:30
8x100 count strokes, descend count
on 2:00
Total - 4200m

S - 1200 mixed warm-up
25 easy 50 FAST 25 easy
20 x 25 2 easy 2 strong/best average
0n 10 sec rest
4x100 DPS, descend stroke count on 2:00
4x50 Strong kick best average on 1:30
4x25 dive fast, on 2:30
8x100 DPS, descend stroke count on 2:00
Totsl - 3300m

S - Day of rest, (This is wise)

M - 1000 mixed warm-up
6x25 dive 3, and 6 fast
16x75m work turns, on 1:30
4x400 1 pull bouy on ankles
1 pull bouy only, 1 swim
1 paddles only
Total - 3950m

T - 600 mixed warm-up
20x50 descend 1-20 to Fast
4 on 50,45,40,45,1:20
200 easy
12x25 12.5 fast from sculling start
400 descend stroke count
Total - 2500m

W - 1200 mixed warm up
6 x 300 pdls only on 4:30
200 easy
5x200 kick descend 1-5, on 5min
400 descend stroke count
Total - 4600m

T - 800 mixed warm up
4x150 50fly/back/free on 2:30
400 pdls only
50 easy
4 x 100 best average from dive
on 4:00 minutes
4x50 kick with fins fast on 1:20
best average
200 easy
4x25 with fins fast, Best average on
1:30
2x300 Descend stroke count
Total - 3350m

F - 800 mixed warm up
3X(6x100)+100 easy on 1:30 descend
each set so first 6 easy, 2nd six medium build
3rd six best average.
4x50 kick with fins, on 1:30 best average
Total - 3100m

S - 400 mixed warm up
8x25 with fins on 2:30 best average, try and
hold 10.99 or better...
400 descend stroke count
4x50 with fins on 3:00 best average, try and
hold 24.99 or better
400 descend stroke count
2x100 on 4:00, (no fins) best average, try and
hold 57.99 or better
100 easy
Total - 1900m

So that's it!! Repeat cycle, and record all times.

Chris Stevenson
May 14th, 2008, 01:03 PM
Actually, I think the best way to improve your 100 is to do this set (http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/speakers.php?sid=1032&vid=14531).

I guess I'm just an old fuddy-duddy but this is pretty gross...remind me to cross Auburn off my son's school list in 10 years...

JMiller
May 14th, 2008, 01:27 PM
Actually, I think the best way to improve your 100 is to do this set (http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/speakers.php?sid=1032&vid=14531).

I guess I'm just an old fuddy-duddy but this is pretty gross...remind me to cross Auburn off my son's school list in 10 years...

Why did they want them to throw up?

scyfreestyler
May 14th, 2008, 01:32 PM
Why did they want them to throw up?

That's generally a sure sign that you have pushed yourself to the extreme limit, and probably a bit beyond. Judging by the misters running poolside, it was probably quite warm as well...that only makes matters worse.

scyfreestyler
May 14th, 2008, 01:33 PM
Why they were blowing chow into the pool filtration system is beyond me.

JMiller
May 14th, 2008, 01:40 PM
That's generally a sure sign that you have pushed yourself to the extreme limit, and probably a bit beyond.

I suppose, and there is the entertainment factor, I guess. Still, that can't be good for the esophagus.

thewookiee
May 14th, 2008, 02:06 PM
Actually, I think the best way to improve your 100 is to do this set (http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/speakers.php?sid=1032&vid=14531).

I guess I'm just an old fuddy-duddy but this is pretty gross...remind me to cross Auburn off my son's school list in 10 years...

Well...in 10 years...that coaching staff may not be there either. So, that's a bit premature to cross a good swimming school off the list.

Personally, I found the set quite fun to watch. Brett Hawke wrote a letter on flocast explaining what happened.

They guys on the team seemed to be having fun with it as well.

Paul Smith
May 14th, 2008, 02:12 PM
This goes back to:

A) Defining what a "sprinter" is
B) Distinguishing between SCY-SCM/LCM

On "A" I personally define a sprinter as someone committed first and foremost to their 50(s). If that is the focus the training is extremely different than someone who wants to "extend" their reach to the 100, 200 & 500 where more emphasis on aerobic base is needed. Jazz is the perfect example, blazing fast 50 speed...not so concerned with the 100...and in his case a focus on high intensity pool work and weight training is more important. Speaking for myself, I've never been a sprinter....middle distance with the ability to stretch myself down to the 50/100 because I have worked on developing "easy speed" but also able to back half the 200/500.

On "B", long course meters is an entirely different animal in the 100 on up so if you do want to be strong in the 100 you need some basic aerobic training mixed into your routine....for me thats where spinning comes in, the training effect of being on a spin bike for 30-60 minutes maintaining an average hr of around 145 is something I can't get in the pool. I use that time for technique and speed work and early on some longer aerobic swimming/kicking work.

On the pool I would check the 2nd, 3rd and 4th options.

Chris Stevenson
May 14th, 2008, 02:34 PM
Well...in 10 years...that coaching staff may not be there either. So, that's a bit premature to cross a good swimming school off the list.

I was joking, of course. I saw the letter too. Heck, I started swimming masters based on my participation in a beer relay (sans vomiting). I did laugh at the comment about the Stanford team doing this set with wine coolers and the completely appropriate response questioning their manhood.

Chris Stevenson
May 14th, 2008, 02:50 PM
This goes back to:

A) Defining what a "sprinter" is
B) Distinguishing between SCY-SCM/LCM

On "A" I personally define a sprinter as someone committed first and foremost to their 50(s). If that is the focus the training is extremely different than someone who wants to "extend" their reach to the 100, 200 & 500 where more emphasis on aerobic base is needed. Jazz is the perfect example, blazing fast 50 speed...not so concerned with the 100...and in his case a focus on high intensity pool work and weight training is more important. Speaking for myself, I've never been a sprinter....middle distance with the ability to stretch myself down to the 50/100 because I have worked on developing "easy speed" but also able to back half the 200/500.

On "B", long course meters is an entirely different animal in the 100 on up so if you do want to be strong in the 100 you need some basic aerobic training mixed into your routine....for me thats where spinning comes in, the training effect of being on a spin bike for 30-60 minutes maintaining an average hr of around 145 is something I can't get in the pool. I use that time for technique and speed work and early on some longer aerobic swimming/kicking work.

On the pool I would check the 2nd, 3rd and 4th options.

Good points. I did notice your impressive range at nationals, in the 50 thru 500; very nice. (But somehow I missed your 200 fly? :))

The fitness aspect of cycling/spinning or running is unquestioned (as well as for weight control). But is it really so hard to do the same in the pool? The 1-hour postal swim hurts just as bad as a 40 km bike time trial, after all, and probably has a similar affect on HR.

As an aside, my triathlete/cyclist friends always marvel about -- and don't quite understand -- swimmers training for hours for events that last mere minutes.

Glider
May 14th, 2008, 03:00 PM
Now, let's be honest here (S)he. Your answer CLEARLY is E: Forget sprinting, and train your brains out.



My option is not listed.

It is, "What do these boys know anyway?" :joker::joker:

Review the advice given, but create your own plan that you enjoy and believe in. That will work.

geochuck
May 14th, 2008, 03:18 PM
The extension does change for me in a 50. It is above the water and not as much as I do when I swim distance.

But there is so little difference in the stroke you would barely notice it. I don't place the hands in and extend when I sprint. It makes just a little bit more of a splash ad it I start the catch much sooner when sprinting.

The secret of swimming a fast 50 is to power swim and don't breathe have a good dive and a good turn and don't over analyse.

Jazz Hands
May 14th, 2008, 03:25 PM
If that is the focus the training is extremely different than someone who wants to "extend" their reach to the 100, 200 & 500 where more emphasis on aerobic base is needed. Jazz is the perfect example, blazing fast 50 speed...not so concerned with the 100...and in his case a focus on high intensity pool work and weight training is more important.

I'll just say that this is one of the reasons I don't like to compete over 50 meters. The races hurt, the training hurts. Pain is aversive for me, unlike some of you sickos.

thewookiee
May 14th, 2008, 03:26 PM
I was joking, of course. I saw the letter too. Heck, I started swimming masters based on my participation in a beer relay (sans vomiting). I did laugh at the comment about the Stanford team doing this set with wine coolers and the completely appropriate response questioning their manhood.

Chris,

My apoloizes for rushing to judgement on your post.

John

The Fortress
May 14th, 2008, 03:32 PM
The fitness aspect of cycling/spinning or running is unquestioned (as well as for weight control). But is it really so hard to do the same in the pool? The 1-hour postal swim hurts just as bad as a 40 km bike time trial, after all, and probably has a similar affect on HR.


But it has a dissimilar effect on shoulders! Shoulder preservation and longevity is another key reason to cross-train. And kick.

Thanks for the sets, Jonathan. Lotsa paddles and pull buoy in there ... I think 4000 yards is about my limit per workout though. I can't hang with the likes of (S)he-Beast! How do you suggest increasing DPS for back and fly?

Paul:

I've gotten fond of my 100s (even though, as Jazz points out, they hurt) and don't want to be a pure 50s swimmer. Plus, I enjoy LC. LC sprints rock because you tall folks aren't killing me off every wall.

Chris Stevenson
May 14th, 2008, 03:45 PM
But it has a dissimilar effect on shoulders! Shoulder preservation and longevity is another key reason to cross-train. And kick.

Absolutely...although cycling in the aero bars puts more strain on my shoulders more than swimming does.

That Guy
May 14th, 2008, 03:59 PM
Absolutely...although cycling in the aero bars puts more strain on my shoulders more than swimming does.

Hmmm. I spend lots of time there as well, and it doesn't bother my shoulders very much at all. If they get sore I just straighten up and shake them out, and I'm good to go for a while. My neck is a different matter though. For half iron and full iron length races, I take two ibuprofen at some point during the bike ride to control my neck pain.

ourswimmer
May 14th, 2008, 04:08 PM
The fitness aspect of cycling/spinning or running is unquestioned (as well as for weight control). But is it really so hard to do the same in the pool? The 1-hour postal swim hurts just as bad as a 40 km bike time trial, after all, and probably has a similar affect on HR.

It would be for me. I think shoulder-wise I max out at 17,500 yards or so per week, in four sessions lasting about 5.5 hours total. Along with dryland strength training for core and limbs, that amount of swimming might be enough for my best performance in short events, but I have other goals as well. (Last year my OW swimming won me a spatula, a potholder, and a plate! Just a few more years and I will be able to bake a cake!)


As an aside, my triathlete/cyclist friends always marvel about -- and don't quite understand -- swimmers training for hours for events that last mere minutes.
Do you know anyone who trains for track events in cycling or running rather than for road racing? I think long distance OW swimming is a better comparison for triathlon or road cycling, and track meets are a better comparison for swim meets. A 40-ish classmate in professional school ran track but I never quizzed him about training regimens. Maybe rtodd or someone else with a track background can enlighten us as to how 45-year-old 400m specialists train?

Paul Smith
May 14th, 2008, 05:23 PM
Good points. I did notice your impressive range at nationals, in the 50 thru 500; very nice. (But somehow I missed your 200 fly? :))

The fitness aspect of cycling/spinning or running is unquestioned (as well as for weight control). But is it really so hard to do the same in the pool? The 1-hour postal swim hurts just as bad as a 40 km bike time trial, after all, and probably has a similar affect on HR.

As an aside, my triathlete/cyclist friends always marvel about -- and don't quite understand -- swimmers training for hours for events that last mere minutes.

Chris, I swam a 200 fly once in college as punishment for coming to a Saturday workout hungover...I never showed up like that again which should indicate the level of passion I have for that particular event!

As for the overtraining we do to swim such short races..that same idea is what The Race Club basically was founded on. Ever see the interview with Mike Bottom about "cat mentality"? pretty intriguing:
http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/speakers.php?sid=713&vid=7297

another interesting clip
http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/speakers.php?sid=713&vid=7428

scyfreestyler
May 14th, 2008, 06:02 PM
In response to the thread title..

Based upon the results of Jazz and the testimony of Paul Smith, I would say, not much.

CreamPuff
May 14th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Now, let's be honest here (S)he. Your answer CLEARLY is E: Forget sprinting, and train your brains out.




Question is, "How much aerobic work for sprinters?" not for (S)he.
True high maintenance sprinters are incapable of training their brains out. Not an option for them.

I'd like to see the Gatorade run performed with women. Any women up for joining me say the end of a nats meet? And actually, it would be rather entertaining to switch out the Gatorade for cups of beer. . . :laugh2::laugh2: What can I say? Train hard. Play hard.

The Fortress
May 14th, 2008, 06:27 PM
True high maintenance sprinters are incapable of training their brains out. Not an option for them.

I'd like to see the Gatorade run performed with women. Any women up for joining me say the end of a nats meet? And actually, it would be rather entertaining to switch out the Gatorade for cups of beer. . . :laugh2::laugh2:

Then I'm not a high maintenance sprinter! I have to be careful or I'll injure myself with excess training. I feel like I just got a "get out of jail free" card now that taper is over. Did a nice 1000 yard aerobic set today during my swim ... after a 5 mile run. :)

(S)he, I'm not doing any contests with you now that the personality conversion is complete!

Jazz Hands
May 14th, 2008, 06:32 PM
In response to the thread title..

Based upon the results of Jazz and the testimony of Paul Smith, I would say, not much.

Like Paul said, it depends what you mean by "sprinter." I think it also depends what you mean by "aerobic work." It's true that I don't do a lot of slow sets where the aerobic system is dominant. However, during an all-out sprint the aerobic power output is at a maximum. Having a lot of sprinting yardage develops aerobic fitness to a suitable extent for a 50, without sacrificing anaerobic power.

ande
May 14th, 2008, 06:33 PM
the point is

if you don't train properly for sprints
you won't achieve your potential
you might be able to come close
but you could lose a several 10th's of a second

swimmers like Lochte & Phelps are very fast
but their
50's aren't as great as their 100's and their
100's aren't as great as their 200's
the mark of a middle distance swimmer is
take their 100 time
double it then
add 6 seconds and you have a time close to their 200 time

the mark of a sprinter is
take their 100 time
double it then
add 12 to 16 seconds and you have a time close to their 200 time

I used to be a double my 100 and add 9 to 11 seconds kind of guy

I swam with a distance swimmer where you take his
100 time
double it then add
4 seconds
58 - - - - > 2:00

ande

geochuck
May 14th, 2008, 06:41 PM
Isn't it wonderful we don't have to try and qualify for the Olympics. We can get away with minimum work and not have the concerns of being the best in the world. Or we can overload and train hard just to be the #1 swimmer in our age group.

All we have to think about is to be the best we can be with or without killing our selves.

The Fortress
May 14th, 2008, 06:49 PM
the point is

if you don't train properly for sprints
you won't achieve your potential
you might be able to come close
but you could lose a several 10th's of a second


Do you think "sprints" include both 50s and 100s? I always thought they did, although I feel like the 100 fly is an endurance event, especially in meters. I always though of 50s specialists like Jazz as "drop dead sprinters." (Jazz needs to come give Warren some competition in the "Battle of the Drop Dead Sprinters" at the GMU Sprint Classic!)

So if one does some aerobic work, do you think that's "not training properly?"

I now where I'm losing several tenths of a second right off the bat -- whimpy weight lifting.

Paul Smith
May 14th, 2008, 06:58 PM
The other reason for at least some aerobic/base training is 10 swims over 3-4 days at a masters nationals...who wasn't feeling tired by their 5th or 6th race let alone $10?

I think JS needed emergency first aid after his 50 back showdown with Clay and his relay leadoff less than an hour away...sadly none of us were will to assist.

some_girl
May 14th, 2008, 07:15 PM
the mark of a middle distance swimmer is
take their 100 time
double it then
add 6 seconds and you have a time close to their 200 time

the mark of a sprinter is
take their 100 time
double it then
add 12 to 16 seconds and you have a time close to their 200 time


Well, I'm still a sprinter by one metric anyways. 14 seconds, and that's with a "decent" 200 this year.

Chris Stevenson
May 14th, 2008, 07:33 PM
In response to the thread title..

Based upon the results of Jazz and the testimony of Paul Smith, I would say, not much.

Mike Bottom, on the first link provided by Paul, seems to disagree with that statement.

Paul may not consider himself a sprinter but he is the world record holder in several 50s...doing aerobic work didn't seem to hurt him, at least! In my opinion, it is good to do for general health regardless of its impact (or lack) on swimming times.

Fort, in my college days :oldman: the only 50 was the 50 free and all 100s were also considered sprints. Now we have all these 50s with world records, the 100IM, and 200 free and medley relays at NCAAs. (I think it is due to Title IX.)

Ande, I wonder if your formulas are more applicable to younger swimmers, maybe it changes with age. For example, I notice that at USA-S meets I tend to do better against the kids in the 100 back but at masters meets I am probably considered better at the 200 back (in short course, anyway). Some of it is due to the difference in training volume, of course, but maybe not all. (I have definitely noticed that my 200 fly -- once my best event -- has been the event most affected by age and I cannot seem to reverse that at all. Really sucks getting older.)

That Guy
May 14th, 2008, 07:44 PM
the point is
the mark of a middle distance swimmer is
take their 100 time
double it then
add 6 seconds and you have a time close to their 200 time

the mark of a sprinter is
take their 100 time
double it then
add 12 to 16 seconds and you have a time close to their 200 time


I don't think that applies evenly across all strokes, nor across SCY/SCM/LCM. Here are my numbers for SCY: Freestyle - 7.28, Backstroke - 8.23, Breaststroke :rofl: - 11.40, Butterfly - 11.94, IM - 5.65 :confused:

coachchris
May 14th, 2008, 08:50 PM
I've read through this thread pretty quickly, and I think there are some good opinions throughout.... HOWEVER, I don't think that one specific opinion on how to train works best for every swimmer every year. Don't get me wrong: I'm a big advocate of a higher percentage of speed work at speed, especially for sprinters, with recovery built into the process.

I also think that in order to make progress and maintain some kind of aerobic base for something longer than a 50, even sprinters should step back once every 4 or 5 training cycles and do something with an aerobic kind of goal in mind. This not only provides some variation in the training and prevents boredom, but it also gives the muscle groups that are pushed by high volumes of speed work some time to recover for the long term.

At Bullets, we face a different kind of challenge: a low ratio of sprinters to distance swimmers makes it hard to design a program for the "drop-dead" sprinter. Since a large percentage of swimmers in my current group are Ironman-distance triathletes, we've found that striking a balance between aerobic and speed/sprint work for everyone tends to change up the training a little, and helps to balance out the all-around swimming throughout the year. I know the "drop-dead" (50s only) swimmers think I'm crazy, but this kind of balance tends to help them as much as it does the distance swimmers to learn how to swim their respective events faster for longer periods of time with less injury and more consistent performance through the season.

Almost to a person, even the most consistent sprinters in my program find themselves with something left in the tank come taper time to pop off some peak performances at Nationals :-)

So, to quote Pat Morita, in many cases "balance is the key, Daniel-san."

The Fortress
May 14th, 2008, 09:03 PM
Fort, in my college days :oldman: the only 50 was the 50 free and all 100s were also considered sprints. Now we have all these 50s with world records, the 100IM, and 200 free and medley relays at NCAAs. (I think it is due to Title IX.)

Ande, I wonder if your formulas are more applicable to younger swimmers, maybe it changes with age.

Yeah, I had to swim crap events like the 2-fly in college as well. Thank god Title IX had the residual positive effect of making us whimpy sprinters bloody happy!

I don't know about ande's formula either. I'm a little scared to even think about what my current 200 times are ..

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Chris. Balance seems like a good idea to counter mental and muscle burnout.

Allen Stark
May 14th, 2008, 09:32 PM
At a meet I went to in the 70s in Houston,Graham Johnson(definitely a distance swimmer),was(improbably)entered in the 100 and 200 BR SCY.His 100 time-1:14.His 200 time-2:28.
For me this yr 100 BR 1:08,200 BR 2:28.Thats a 12 sec difference and my 200 was better than I expected and my 100 was worse-SPRINTER:banana:.
Also I don't think non sprinters should have input on this thread (you know who you are and how you love yardage:mooning:.)

rtodd
May 14th, 2008, 09:50 PM
Maybe rtodd or someone else with a track background can enlighten us as to how 45-year-old 400m specialists train?

http://www.theraceclub.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1179

This is being discussed elsewhere. Here is a great thread which references the 400m track workout and it's equivalency to the 100m swim. Buried in it is an old iconic article from Clyde Hart (coach of Michael Johnson, Jeremy Wariner and Sanya Richards). It shows how an an elite 46 sec quarter miler might train.

It was once thought that the quarter mile was 90% anaerobic and 10% aerobic. Scientific research has flipped that and found a rather large aerobic component.

Therefore an aerobic component is necessary for sprinters not only for the race but also to assist in the recovery of repeats during speed endurance workouts. As the season progresses, the workouts become shorter and more intense.

What shocked me most about switching to swimming was the short rest.....why do swimmers do that? I used to rest 2-3 minutes, sometimes 8-10 for full recovery.

CreamPuff
May 14th, 2008, 09:52 PM
Also I don't think non sprinters should have input on this thread (you know who you are and how you love yardage:mooning:.)

Coach Chris, great post. Makes a lot of sense to me.

Allen, I couldn't agree with you more. Go away non-sprinters - that includes you middle distance folks too!
:rant3::rant3:

geochuck
May 14th, 2008, 10:07 PM
Allen - Graham Johnson a great swimmer for sure.

Last time I raced against Graham Johnson was 1957 in a 2 mile OW swim in Lake Ontario. I had only been sprinting and playing waterpolo. Graham, Peter Duncan and George Breen were there. Peter and Graham asked me to take George Breen out fast to burn him out. I went out as fast as I could and Peter and Graham finished behind George and me. They came 3rd and 4th.
I was always able to swim well in cooler water.


At a meet I went to in the 70s in Houston,Graham Johnson(definitely a distance swimmer),was(improbably)entered in the 100 and 200 BR SCY.His 100 time-1:14.His 200 time-2:28.
For me this yr 100 BR 1:08,200 BR 2:28.Thats a 12 sec difference and my 200 was better than I expected and my 100 was worse-SPRINTER:banana:.
Also I don't think non sprinters should have input on this thread (you know who you are and how you love yardage:mooning:.)

The Fortress
May 14th, 2008, 10:37 PM
http://www.theraceclub.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1179

This is being discussed elsewhere. Here is a great thread which references the 400m track workout and it's equivalency to the 100m swim. Buried in it is an old iconic article from Clyde Hart (coach of Michael Johnson, Jeremy Wariner and Sanya Richards). It shows how an an elite 46 sec quarter miler might train.

It was once thought that the quarter mile was 90% anaerobic and 10% aerobic. Scientific research has flipped that and found a rather large aerobic component.

Therefore an aerobic component is necessary for sprinters not only for the race but also to assist in the recovery of repeats during speed endurance workouts. As the season progresses, the workouts become shorter and more intense.

What shocked me most about switching to swimming was the short rest.....why do swimmers do that? I used to rest 2-3 minutes, sometimes 8-10 for full recovery.

Interesting Race Club thread. There was one post concluding that lactate tolerance was the key for the last 15 meters of a 100, not aerobic capacity.

Glider
May 14th, 2008, 10:51 PM
This is me. 1:05 100 BR, 2:25 200 BR. That's double plus 15. Very drop dead sprinter, considering my 50 BR was a 28.6.


the point is

the mark of a sprinter is
take their 100 time
double it then
add 12 to 16 seconds and you have a time close to their 200 time


ande

Allen Stark
May 14th, 2008, 11:12 PM
For any distance swimmers lurking out there thinking sprinters are wimps try some lactate tolerance sets.My favorite(well actually I hate it,because it hurts if you do it right,but it is my favorite because it gives good results)25s on the 30 all out,repeat until stroke gets ragged(8-10 generally for me),take a min rest and go again.Probably a more disciplined swimmer could do 4 sets,2 is good for me,then a LONG cool down before anything else.Done right you should burn all over by the end.It does really help with the last 15 yd and even more with the last 15M.

geochuck
May 14th, 2008, 11:21 PM
A good sprinter can expell every bit of energy in either the 50 or 100.

JMiller
May 15th, 2008, 12:02 AM
What shocked me most about switching to swimming was the short rest.....why do swimmers do that? I used to rest 2-3 minutes, sometimes 8-10 for full recovery.

Good question...

knelson
May 15th, 2008, 12:13 AM
another interesting clip
http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/speakers.php?sid=713&vid=7428

In this one they mention doing something aerobic nearly every day. This particular workout had a set of 3x(4x100), so a 1200 yard aerobic set.

JMiller
May 15th, 2008, 12:13 AM
Interesting Race Club thread. There was one post concluding that lactate tolerance was the key for the last 15 meters of a 100, not aerobic capacity.

That's precisely why I do 60-80 reps in the weight room using medium-light weight, all swimming specific exercises.

Loffe
May 15th, 2008, 03:46 AM
Hi there,
Here is a bunch of thoughts from Sweden, probably without any connection..

In the early 90's while I was still active I started to train all by myself, because I believed a sprinter should only do sprint stuff, which our team did not. After sometime I did however move back a bit and started doing some light aerobic traing again, every week. This helped me during competition when there were many races and not so much rest in between, but also made me feel stronger.

Being a 100% sprinter is good when you only do ONE race. But sometimes there are prelims, semi-finals etc and then same basic endurance will probably not hurt you. As it has been mentioned in prevoius replys there is also a diffecrence in only doing 50s and also including 100s, and also in LCM. When I was young I used to compete with one of the best sprinters from UK. My fly was ok at that time and everytime I was behind him with less than 1m at the 25 turn I would kick his ass. Because he never managed the whole 50, but I could do a descent 100 as well.

Then there are also other aspects to look at. Are you a sprinter? Or do you just WANT to be a sprinter? We all have different fiber-set-up and maybe that will effect how we train? My coach used to say: "Jan, you have a perfect stroke for the 400m, but want to practice like a sprinter". Maybe a true sprinter needs one kind trayining and a wanna-be sprinter with more slow fibers need another kind of training?

For me swimming nowdays is not only about swimming one or two distances at a meet, but also to stay in shape. And staying in shape for me means working on strength, flexibility and anaerobic/aerobic capacity.

It was an interesting thread from Auburn. Why do they want the guys to drink so much? I would puke from drinking that stuff all the time! Seems like the whole idea is to make them feel bad. And that leads me to lactate training. For me there are two ways to look at fast training:
a) Focus on swimming fast
b) focus on getting tired

For me it is never a goal to only get tired. If I can do a fast 50 without getting too tired that is ok with me. Sometimes you see series with lots of all out and almost no rest. Just to make people really, really tired. But will this make them practice fast swims? No, more focus on getting really really tired. Some years ago I did a "hobby-comeback" at the swedish Nationals. I did some good aerobic training, lots of sprints and techniqe but almost no lactate training. I just focused on swimmimg fast.Was I nervous at the meet? Yes I was. But.. I set a personal best in the 100m by almost 0.5 sec. So by focusing on swimming fast and lots of techinque I improved. Not by neccessarily focusing on getting tired (=means probably slower speeds and worse technique).

And what is endurance training? Even though I just cruise the pool, do some nice sprints, starts, turns and technique training, this also has an effect on the heart rate. It would still probably be considered light endurance traing.. as the pulse will rise to 120 in average or where ever it ends up..

But again... we are all different and there are many ways to succeed..

CreamPuff
May 15th, 2008, 07:53 AM
This is me. 1:05 100 BR, 2:25 200 BR. That's double plus 15. Very drop dead sprinter, considering my 50 BR was a 28.6.

According to Ande's formula, I too am a sprinter for FR, IM and the Flys (only things I swim).

So for example in the fly,
100 fly - 58.52
200 fly - 2:11 (that's double plus 14)

ha ha - I love playing on both sides of the fence.

Glider
May 15th, 2008, 07:57 AM
(S)he said:lmao:



ha ha - I love playing on both sides of the fence.

The Fortress
May 15th, 2008, 09:09 AM
That's precisely why I do 60-80 reps in the weight room using medium-light weight, all swimming specific exercises.

Maybe I should try this ... I just can't stand doing heavy weights and my shoulder doesn't like them anyway. Seems like a good alternative for me.

What about aerobic kicking? Does that count? I was mulling over my past workouts, and thinking that much of my kicking (apart from shooters) could be considered somewhat aerobic. Although I never use super short intervals.

(S)he -- you're a hybrid, to be sure, but let's not cover up that #1 ranking in the 1000 and 1650. You're not a closet distance swimmer anymore. In fact, I'm not really sure you can be bragging about being a sprinter. We may have to kick you out of the club.

CreamPuff
May 15th, 2008, 09:20 AM
That's precisely why I do 60-80 reps in the weight room using medium-light weight, all swimming specific exercises.

This is very, very impressive.

It's quite a challenge for me to do 1x40 or 1 minute on (which ends up being anywhere from 45 to 50 reps) w/ light-ish weight. I don't think I could do 80 reps lifting air! I would dare to compare 80 reps in weights (several exercises) to a major distance set in swimming. Distance weights. . .

I would think it could really help a 200 fly as I take about 80 to 88 strokes short course yards.

The Fortress
May 15th, 2008, 09:23 AM
Wait a minute. Jonathan is a sprinter. Is this weight set good for sprinters or distance swimmers? Or both?

geochuck
May 15th, 2008, 09:32 AM
Sprinters and distance swimmers have to use all of these to become faster. It is not to just use Aerobic swimming to get speed.

1. Lactic/acid tolerence
2. MAX VO2
3. AERNEROBIC THRESHOLD
4. AEROBIC
5. ATP-CP PHOS S/S

pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 09:37 AM
Medium light weights would work more endurance aspect rather than strength building. Sprint training requires more strength and that type of training revolves around sets that are 4-6 reps at 80%+ of your one rep max (1RM).

Paul

scyfreestyler
May 15th, 2008, 09:46 AM
In this one they mention doing something aerobic nearly every day. This particular workout had a set of 3x(4x100), so a 1200 yard aerobic set.

I would not call that a lot of aerobic work. Would you?

geochuck
May 15th, 2008, 09:50 AM
At least one third of your work should be aerobic.
Sprinter or distance swimmer.

If you don't know what ATP-CP PHOS S/S is do a google search.

Chris Stevenson
May 15th, 2008, 10:26 AM
That's precisely why I do 60-80 reps in the weight room using medium-light weight, all swimming specific exercises.

Jonathan, this is not a criticism because I think there are a number of good ways to train. This dryland program is clearly challenging.

My own view of weight training is that it should complement what I do in the water. You almost seem to be trying to reproduce it; I feel like I can get the same kind of benefits (and be even more "swimming specific") by doing fast swims in the water.

In the weight room my own approach is to cycle between sets with relatively high reps (12-15, with less recovery time between sets) for a couple weeks and then sets with decreasing number of reps (more weight and more recovery time) for a couple weeks, recover for a week with light (or no) lifting, then repeat.

Again, I'm not saying this is better than your methods, just offeing my own take. Maybe one year I'll try it with more reps and less weight. (I'm a believer in changing training around to keep from getting stale...or bored...).

Of course, there is always Super Slow lifting (http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200212/200212_bodywork_1.html). (Has anyone tried this?)

Another question to people who do weights: 2X a week or 3X a week? I have been doing 3X a week but I'm toying with the idea of going to 2X a week so I can do other cross-training (ie, one extra bike ride a week).

pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 10:31 AM
Of course, there is always Super Slow lifting (http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200212/200212_bodywork_1.html). (Has anyone tried this?)


I used to do a variation of that during my powerlifting days. I called them 6x6s. 6 seconds down, 6 seconds up. Man did they hurt but I loved the results.

Paul

knelson
May 15th, 2008, 10:34 AM
I would not call that a lot of aerobic work. Would you?

No, but look at the choices in Fortress' poll. I'd say what the Race Club is doing falls between the last two choices. They are definitely doing aerobic work more than 1x per week. My original assertion was you should be doing some aerobic work most days, and it seems like the Race Club is doing just that.

Loffe
May 15th, 2008, 10:38 AM
.... Another question to people who do weights: 2X a week or 3X a week? I have been doing 3X a week but I'm toying with the idea of going to 2X a week so I can do other cross-training (ie, one extra bike ride a week).

Well, I also like to try different ways to find what works for me. Some years I have done 3 times, heavy weights - that worked fine! Some years only swimming - also worked fine! And nowdays only twice a week, only 30-40 min - mostly using my body as weight. Seems to work that too!

So.. go ahead an try twice a week and some crosstraining. Maybe that is what works for you!

Paul Smith
May 15th, 2008, 10:48 AM
Jonathan, this is not a criticism because I think there are a number of good ways to train. This dryland program is clearly challenging.

My own view of weight training is that it should complement what I do in the water. You almost seem to be trying to reproduce it; I feel like I can get the same kind of benefits (and be even more "swimming specific") by doing fast swims in the water.

In the weight room my own approach is to cycle between sets with relatively high reps (12-15, with less recovery time between sets) for a couple weeks and then sets with decreasing number of reps (more weight and more recovery time) for a couple weeks, recover for a week with light (or no) lifting, then repeat.

Again, I'm not saying this is better than your methods, just offeing my own take. Maybe one year I'll try it with more reps and less weight. (I'm a believer in changing training around to keep from getting stale...or bored...).

Of course, there is always Super Slow lifting (http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200212/200212_bodywork_1.html). (Has anyone tried this?)

Another question to people who do weights: 2X a week or 3X a week? I have been doing 3X a week but I'm toying with the idea of going to 2X a week so I can do other cross-training (ie, one extra bike ride a week).

Chris, I agree about trying to compliment vs. reproduce. Also, I really want to strengthen the opposing muscle groups for swimming...overdeveloped muscle groups like chest/peck dominate vs. some of the smaller groups of back muscles....one of the reason swimmers can have that very slouched look..and another great reason to take yoga.

Also, after adapting some of the weight routine that the U of A & ASU groups utilize i have to admit I've gotten a LOT stronger. Old is new if you will, lots of Olympic style dead lifts, clean & jerk, squats....heavy weights low reps...working on explosiveness.

2x a week max for me with regard to lifting. Current workout is swimming M-W-F, lifting T-Sa, riding T/Th/Sun. No more than 1hr in the pool, 1hr on the bike, 40 minutes lifting...doing yoga on my own here and there and need to get more consistent...a 10 minute series of sun salutations first thing in the morning is the goal.

The Fortress
May 15th, 2008, 11:01 AM
Chris, I agree about trying to compliment vs. reproduce. Also, I really want to strengthen the opposing muscle groups for swimming...overdeveloped muscle groups like chest/peck dominate vs. some of the smaller groups of back muscles....one of the reason swimmers can have that very slouched look..and another great reason to take yoga.

Also, after adapting some of the weight routine that the U of A & ASU groups utilize i have to admit I've gotten a LOT stronger. Old is new if you will, lots of Olympic style dead lifts, clean & jerk, squats....heavy weights low reps...working on explosiveness.

This must be a guy thing. Just reading the words "dead lift" makes me shudder.

Aside from yoga, how do you strengthen the small back muscles? I do some rows and scapular stuff, but what else? I often have complaining rhomboid and teres muscles.

pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 11:22 AM
This must be a guy thing. Just reading the words "dead lift" makes me shudder.

And that is such a typical girl response. :thhbbb:

What? grrrrrrls can't deadlift or squat? What bunk.

Check out this site for proof that they can.

http://www.stumptuous.com/


Those 2 movements are THE best 2 exercises for overall strength training that exist. And can be done by ANYONE in decent physical health. No need to put 22 thousand pounds on the bar. Just using the bar itself will give you a great total body workout.

Paul

Paul Smith
May 15th, 2008, 11:28 AM
This must be a guy thing. Just reading the words "dead lift" makes me shudder.

Aside from yoga, how do you strengthen the small back muscles? I do some rows and scapular stuff, but what else? I often have complaining rhomboid and teres muscles.

Fort...Laura actually did the same routine and you saw the results she had in Austin. The gals at both Universities are way into the program because it gets results...."power lifting" is a bit misleading in my case however because I'm old, tired and can't lift as much as my wife. One other benefit...lifting heavy w/fewer reps vs. lifting light with high reps burns more calories and contrary to popular belief does not "bulk" you up.

The Fortress
May 15th, 2008, 11:32 AM
Fort...Laura actually did the same routine and you saw the results she had in Austin. The gals at both Universities are way into the program because it gets results...."power lifting" is a bit misleading in my case however because I'm old, tired and can't lift as much as my wife. One other benefit...lifting heavy w/fewer reps vs. lifting light with high reps burns more calories and contrary to popular belief does not "bulk" you up.

I lift weights, dudes!! I've got guns. I'm just scared of lifting weights overhead or doing pull ups or chin ups because of my shoulders. I can squat just fine. :thhbbb: It's those sun salutations I'm skipping out on.

Laura did look pretty buff. Although AJ Block really sets the buff bar high. Good lord ... she looks like a sprinter even though she isn't.

scyfreestyler
May 15th, 2008, 11:40 AM
No, but look at the choices in Fortress' poll. I'd say what the Race Club is doing falls between the last two choices. They are definitely doing aerobic work more than 1x per week. My original assertion was you should be doing some aerobic work most days, and it seems like the Race Club is doing just that.


I would agree that some aerobic work would generally benefit a sprinter, but it's also difficult to argue with the results that Jazz has seen.

Jazz Hands
May 15th, 2008, 11:41 AM
This must be a guy thing. Just reading the words "dead lift" makes me shudder.

Aside from yoga, how do you strengthen the small back muscles? I do some rows and scapular stuff, but what else? I often have complaining rhomboid and teres muscles.

Deadlifts are pretty good for strengthening the scapular retractors, not to mention almost every other muscle in the body.

aquageek
May 15th, 2008, 11:48 AM
I lift weights, dudes!! I've got guns. I'm just scared of lifting weights overhead or doing pull ups or chin ups because of my shoulders. I can squat just fine. :thhbbb: It's those sun salutations I'm skipping out on.

I don't lift anything, including children or groceries over my shoulder level. Makes for an odd hair washing experience. Push ups and pulls ups are also a no-no. BB guns are still guns, right?

ande
May 15th, 2008, 11:55 AM
to protect my lower back I don't squat or deadlift


I lift weights, dudes!! I've got guns. I'm just scared of lifting weights overhead or doing pull ups or chin ups because of my shoulders. I can squat just fine. :thhbbb: It's those sun salutations I'm skipping out on.

Laura did look pretty buff. Although AJ Block really sets the buff bar high. Good lord ... she looks like a sprinter even though she isn't.

The Fortress
May 15th, 2008, 11:57 AM
I don't lift anything, including children or groceries over my shoulder level. Makes for an odd hair washing experience. Push ups and pulls ups are also a no-no.

Wise policy. I did some push ups on a bosu a couple months ago. My shoulder hurt for two weeks. Never again.

All right, I'll do a deadlift. That looks safe enough. What weight?

Back troubles stink, ande! I never had a back problem in my life until I tried power yoga. I'll never to do that again either.

Paul Smith
May 15th, 2008, 12:02 PM
to protect my lower back I don't squat or deadlift

I was the same way for the last 20 years....only started doinf dealifts and squats again 4 months ago....and VERY light. In fact I use a smith machine for squats because my knees are so bad...its kind of funny in the gym when a 6' 6" 240lb guy is using a smith machine to do squats with 100lbs and his wife is throwing down with about twice the weight...good thing I have no pride.

scyfreestyler
May 15th, 2008, 12:06 PM
I was the same way for the last 20 years....only started doinf dealifts and squats again 4 months ago....and VERY light. In fact I use a smith machine for squats because my knees are so bad...its kind of funny in the gym when a 6' 6" 240lb guy is using a smith machine to do squats with 100lbs and his wife is throwing down with about twice the weight...good thing I have no pride.


Only the kids in the gym will laugh, what do they know anyways. At least you are smart enough to put health before pride.

ourswimmer
May 15th, 2008, 12:11 PM
All right, I'll do a deadlift. That looks safe enough. What weight?

Start light. Maybe just use the bar, or use one of those machines that has pulleys that you can pull up in a motion resembling what you would do with the bar.

To protect your low back you have to really set your abdominal muscles and hold them during the effort. Navel to spine, hard.

pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 12:23 PM
All right, I'll do a deadlift. That looks safe enough. What weight?


Fort, I would start with just the standard long bar (45 pounds) or if your gym has one, the shorter straight bar (30 pounds?) and just get a feel for the movement. Check out www.exrx.net (http://www.exrx.net) or look at the stumptuous site for details on what the movement should be. You should aim for 1 set of 10 reps for at least 3 sessions before you even THINK about adding any weight and keep the movement slow and controlled.

A key thing to remember is that the deadlift movement starts with the hips and then the knees, not the other way around. Another key is get your hips low while keeping your back straight. You almost want to drag the bar along your shins as you straighten.

Paul

JMiller
May 15th, 2008, 12:26 PM
Wait a minute. Jonathan is a sprinter. Is this weight set good for sprinters or distance swimmers? Or both?


Look, the 200 is all about sprint endurance, it doesn't qualify as a "true" distance event. Most people shy away from that event because it can feel terrible if you're not prepared properly for the race.

My 50 speed is okay, but the SCM 100 and 200 free I did recently converts to 46.02, and 1:42.82 short course yards, does that make me a distance swimmer? No, I've learned how to simulate the effects of a 100-200 race, without over-training in the pool.

Even an 800 warm-up and some DPS work in the pool is more aerobic than many other sports. It's pretty much impossible to swim, even easy, without gaining an aerobic benefit. Perhaps this discussion is purely semantics, because many people say aerobic training, and what they really mean is pushing the thresholds for middle-distance speed.

The program that I've designed may in fact only work for people with similar body types, but it is also a reflection of time management as well. With my busy work/life schedule I can only commit a certain amount of time to training, so I want the best result possible without excessive outputs of energy.

That is why 60-80 reps in the gym has been the solution that is working for me. All I can say is, how I feel at the end of 100-200 race far exceeds anything I've tried in the past, even when I did swim mass-meters as an age-grouper.

pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 12:27 PM
because my knees are so bad

What does this have to do with it? Stabilization of the weight is a key component of deadlifting and maximizing the benefit. If your knees are that much of an issue, I would be willing to bet that you are doing one or more of these four things:

1) Not getting your hips low enough at the start of the lift
2) Initiating the movement with the knee joint and not the hips
3) Not keeping your low back straight
4) Rounding your shoulders

Paul

Jazz Hands
May 15th, 2008, 12:29 PM
So I guess the answer to the question "How much aerobic work for sprinters?" is "Forget it, let's talk about lifting."

pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 12:30 PM
Hey, it's thread drift. It happens :-)

Paul Smith
May 15th, 2008, 12:34 PM
What does this have to do with it? Stabilization of the weight is a key component of deadlifting and maximizing the benefit. If your knees are that much of an issue, I would be willing to bet that you are doing one or more of these four things:

1) Not getting your hips low enough at the start of the lift
2) Initiating the movement with the knee joint and not the hips
3) Not keeping your low back straight
4) Rounding your shoulders

Paul

Actually just about everything...it was a patellular reattachment (jumpers knee if you will) and there is pain in any bending movement I do regardless...going heavy in squats just ain't going to happen anymore.

The Fortress
May 15th, 2008, 12:34 PM
Perhaps this discussion is purely semantics, because many people say aerobic training, and what they really mean is pushing the thresholds for middle-distance speed.


Well, I've wondered about this myself. I do a lot more low level aerobic work than moderate to high level.

It does seem like the people I know that want to improve their sprinting need more weight training and drylands than aerobic work.

Also, continuing the drift, which is more important, weights or dryland? I have to say, I really prefer core work to weights.

scyfreestyler
May 15th, 2008, 12:37 PM
Look, the 200 is all about sprint endurance, it doesn't qualify as a "true" distance event. Most people shy away from that event because it can feel terrible if you're not prepared properly for the race.

My 50 speed is okay, but the SCM 100 and 200 free I did recently converts to 46.02, and 1:42.82 short course yards, does that make me a distance swimmer? No, I've learned how to simulate the effects of a 100-200 race, without over-training in the pool.

Even an 800 warm-up and some DPS work in the pool is more aerobic than many other sports. It's pretty much impossible to swim, even easy, without gaining an aerobic benefit. Perhaps this discussion is purely semantics, because many people say aerobic training, and what they really mean is pushing the thresholds for middle-distance speed.

The program that I've designed may in fact only work for people with similar body types, but it is also a reflection of time management as well. With my busy work/life schedule I can only commit a certain amount of time to training, so I want the best result possible without excessive outputs of energy.

That is why 60-80 reps in the gym has been the solution that is working for me. All I can say is, how I feel at the end of 100-200 race far exceeds anything I've tried in the past, even when I did swim mass-meters as an age-grouper.


With times like those, you could probably fake a pretty good distance race.

pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 12:48 PM
Actually just about everything...it was a patellular reattachment (jumpers knee if you will) and there is pain in any bending movement I do regardless...going heavy in squats just ain't going to happen anymore.

Ouch,

I definately wasn't advocating going heavy but I still think that moving off the Smith would be a good idea. From a true kinesiological perspective, Smith machines are...well....not good as the can restrict the proper axis of movement and give a false feeling of strength. Just keep it light and slow and controlled. But do what works for ya, that's really what it comes down to.

Paul

stussy96
May 15th, 2008, 09:24 PM
Point of reference -

when I was training more a few years ago:
50 free 25.84
100 free 57.63

this past year, swam about 1x week. Oh, and I hadn't been in the water since July, got back in about 5 weeks before state. Meaning I swam about 8 times...and no cross training.
50 free 25.97
100 free 56.74

the same holds true for my breast and fly....(training more a few years ago vs. this year)
50 breast 34.13 vs. 34.55
100 breast 1:14.95 vs. 1:14.86
50 fly 29.06 vs. 28.35
100 fly 1:06.32 vs. 1:06.72

I vote that sprinters do not need aerobic training. Back in college, when I was way faster, we did a lot of race speed and a lot of lactate sets.

Go sprinters, go!

JMiller
May 15th, 2008, 11:03 PM
See, and that's just pure talent...


Point of reference -

when I was training more a few years ago:
50 free 25.84
100 free 57.63

this past year, swam about 1x week. Oh, and I hadn't been in the water since July, got back in about 5 weeks before state. Meaning I swam about 8 times...and no cross training.
50 free 25.97
100 free 56.74

the same holds true for my breast and fly....(training more a few years ago vs. this year)
50 breast 34.13 vs. 34.55
100 breast 1:14.95 vs. 1:14.86
50 fly 29.06 vs. 28.35
100 fly 1:06.32 vs. 1:06.72

I vote that sprinters do not need aerobic training. Back in college, when I was way faster, we did a lot of race speed and a lot of lactate sets.

Go sprinters, go!

knelson
May 16th, 2008, 12:49 AM
I vote that sprinters do not need aerobic training. Back in college, when I was way faster, we did a lot of race speed and a lot of lactate sets.

You didn't do any aerobic training in college? I'm skeptical about this. And if you did do aerobic training in college perhaps that's why you were "way faster."

Syd
May 16th, 2008, 01:11 AM
I vote that sprinters do not need aerobic training. Back in college, when I was way faster, we did a lot of race speed and a lot of lactate sets.

Go sprinters, go!

I have to agree with this comment. The best results I have had are a direct result of race paced training. I have managed to take 7 seconds off my 200 free time since January by swimming it just like I would in a race during practice. Going all out and getting my splits. Getting my body to get used to the lactic acid build up and learning to cope with the associated pain. Prior to this I was doing sets of 5 x 200m at 3:30 or 3:00 and my time just stayed the same. Now I will only do one 200 in a practice (and not everyday either) but I will do it FAST for time and good splits. Afterwards I might do 100's on 1:20 or even 200's on 3:00 but just cruising, concentrating on my stroke and not really exerting myself too much.


Here's a bit of a digression. I have always had this sneaking suspicion that our current speeds are determined by how far we pushed ourselves in our youths. So if we raised out lactate threshold so that our body could accept the pain of doing a, say, 53 sec 100 when we were young it shouldn't be too difficult to get close to that again when we are older.

It's like your body has memory of this pain and if you could cope with it before, you can probably cope with it now (as long as your heart doesn't pack up)! However, if you never crossed this threshold in your youth, and even though you may be just as physically gifted as the person in the lane next to you who did, it is going to be much more difficult to beat them.

I am not saying that it is not possible. Just that it is going to be more difficult. In fact, I am hoping that I can do it myself. I was only really a useful swimmer when I was younger and stopped swimming at age 16 so I feel I never really developed my potential. I am hoping I can surpass some of those times this year.

JMiller
May 16th, 2008, 02:00 AM
This is an interesting thought... Hard to say for sure, but you'll get to your best, and that might not be for a few more years yet.

Congratulations on your recent swimming performances... Have I helped you in that process?


I have always had this sneaking suspicion that our current speeds are determined by how far we pushed ourselves in our youths. So if we raised out lactate threshold so that our body could accept the pain of doing a, say, 53 sec 100 when we were young it shouldn't be too difficult to get close to that again when we are older.

It's like your body has memory of this pain and if you could cope with it before, you can probably cope with it now (as long as your heart doesn't pack up)! However, if you never crossed this threshold in your youth, and even though you may be just as physically gifted as the person in the lane next to you who did, it is going to be much more difficult to beat them.

I am not saying that it is not possible. Just that it is going to be more difficult. In fact, I am hoping that I can do it myself. I was only really a useful swimmer when I was younger and stopped swimming at age 16 so I feel I never really developed my potential. I am hoping I can surpass some of those times this year.

The Fortress
May 16th, 2008, 08:28 AM
You didn't do any aerobic training in college? I'm skeptical about this. And if you did do aerobic training in college perhaps that's why you were "way faster."

I wish I had done that kind of training in college or when I was an age grouper, Stacy. I have no memory of anything except mega yards. But, Kirk, why would you think aerobic work would make you faster than race pace/lacate work? Certainly, on its own it wouldn't. Did you just mean in combination?

geochuck
May 16th, 2008, 09:37 AM
I believe you are all chasing a dream which will never come if you are dwelling on

Max Vo2
Aerobic
Aenerobic
Lactic Theshold
and so on

Get in and swim, do some easy swimming, some medium speed repeats, some fast hard sprint repeats, and some all out sprints. Work on your dives, turns and your streamline. Guess what you will be doing all of the above without thinking about it.

Way too much to think about

I am 74 - My birthday is May 19th are all of the figures going to be changed because I am a year older.

Resting heart rate 60
Aerobic min heart rate 111.6
Aerobic max 128.8
Aenerobic min 128.8
AenerobicThreshold max 137.4
Max Vo2 min 137.4
Max Vo2 max 141.7
Lactic Threshold 142.56

knelson
May 16th, 2008, 10:19 AM
But, Kirk, why would you think aerobic work would make you faster than race pace/lacate work? Certainly, on its own it wouldn't. Did you just mean in combination?

Right, a combination. It seems like the original question you posed was should you do zero aerobic work, or a small amount of aerobic work? My position is that even sprinters should do some aerobic work. I don't think there's any question you should be doing lots of race pace stuff, too.

That's what I was asking Stacy. She says she did lots of race pace stuff in college and swam fast, but does this mean she did exclusively fast swimming without aerobic work? I just can't imagine there are many college programs out there that have their sprinters doing zero aerobic training.

This reminds me, has anyone else gotten the latest issue of USMS Swimmer? I got mine yesterday and looked through it. In the "my favorite practice" segment the practice is by Darcy La Fountain. Ms. La Fountain is an open water specialist and says "my passion is training." She currently sits in third place in the Go The Distance challenge as of the end of April with 547 miles swum (I was at 175 miles, to put this in perspective. The leader is at a jaw-dropping 760 miles!). Anyway, here's the practice she submitted:

warm-up: 1000 kick with fins, choice
main set:
swim/pull 20x100 free on 1:45
kick 1000 with fins, choice
swim/pull 20x100 free, 10 swim, 10 pull on 1:45
kick 1000 with fins, choice
swim 10x100 free on 1:45 swim, pull or swim with fins

8,000 total

That's a lot of long kicking. I think kicking 200 at a time is boring, I can't imagine 1000s kicking!

Chris Stevenson
May 16th, 2008, 10:21 AM
I believe you are all chasing a dream which will never come if you are dwelling on

Max Vo2
Aerobic
Aenerobic
Lactic Theshold
and so on

Get in and swim, do some easy swimming, some medium speed repeats, some fast hard sprint repeats, and some all out sprints. Work on your dives, turns and your streamline. Guess what you will be doing all of the above without thinking about it.

Way too much to think about...

George, I find it somewhat amusing that you advise not worrying about all those things...and then proceed to provide your own numbers! (I don't know my own numbers for ANY of those things, not even my resting HR.)

Your point is well taken, though. I would only disagree with you that working on "fast hard sprint repeats" and "all out sprints" comes naturally and will "just happen" in masters swimming.

At the masters level I do not believe that is true at all. I think the majority of practices at teams arouund the country are predominantly "medium speed" without too much rest...basically, what I would call "fitness swimming" rather than preparing to race.

Now, of course, the majority of USMS members have no interest in racing so maybe that is okay. It is maybe hard to convince those people to really push themselves to the edge.

Still, I swim with a small masters group with a very wide range of abilities, including triathletes and latecomers (ie those who have picked up swimming late in life). Many have little interest in competing -- they'll swim in our home pool meet (maybe), they are mostly interested in swimming for fitness.

Nevertheless, they completely buy into our coach's philosophy of race pace training in addition to aerobic work, etc, and are fitter and faster as a result. Even for fitness, I think training all the energy systems is important, regardless of whether you use the fancy names or not.

geochuck
May 16th, 2008, 10:40 AM
Chris you have to understand I will never do a work out with a masters club again. Most coaches get their workouts from the computer and spend to much time doing drills. I am not into drills. I believe coaches and instructors have to teach and correct swim strokes.

I divide my workouts so, 1 day Aerobic, 1 day Aenerobic, 1day Max Vo2. It so happens every day I swim there happens to be a little of all three thrown in. But I focus on only one of the three each day. I do try when training to swim 6 days a week so I focus on each level 2 x a week.

If you need your numbers, I need your age and resting heart rate. I put it in the computer and it will spit out your numbers. Seeing I am one year older next week my numbers will cange slightly.

jim clemmons
May 16th, 2008, 12:00 PM
Still, I swim with a small masters group with a very wide range of abilities, including triathletes and latecomers (ie those who have picked up swimming late in life).

These guys have been referred to as "late bloomers" in previous posts. This was before your joining date but you really missed some heated and interesting discussions on these types. :bolt:

Allen Stark
May 16th, 2008, 12:03 PM
To digress back to lifting.I have a question about "slow lifting" and lifting speed in general.I was told(many years ago) that slow lifting was counter productive in speed sports as it hypertrophied slow twitch fibers which may increase strength and bulk but would impede explosiveness.I was told you wanted to lift fast enough to be mostly engaging fast twitch fibers only.Is there any validity to that line of thought? It makes sense to me.

geochuck
May 16th, 2008, 12:05 PM
I have enough trouble lifting my body out of bed.

scyfreestyler
May 16th, 2008, 12:07 PM
To digress back to lifting.I have a question about "slow lifting" and lifting speed in general.I was told(many years ago) that slow lifting was counter productive in speed sports as it hypertrophied slow twitch fibers which may increase strength and bulk but would impede explosiveness.I was told you wanted to lift fast enough to be mostly engaging fast twitch fibers only.Is there any validity to that line of thought? It makes sense to me.

Sounds like a good way to get hurt, no? Anyhow, I am curious as well.

scyfreestyler
May 16th, 2008, 12:08 PM
These guys have been referred to as "late bloomers" in previous posts. This was before your joining date but you really missed some heated and interesting discussions on these types. :bolt:

Late bloomer here! :wiggle::wave:

Jazz Hands
May 16th, 2008, 12:16 PM
To digress back to lifting.I have a question about "slow lifting" and lifting speed in general.I was told(many years ago) that slow lifting was counter productive in speed sports as it hypertrophied slow twitch fibers which may increase strength and bulk but would impede explosiveness.I was told you wanted to lift fast enough to be mostly engaging fast twitch fibers only.Is there any validity to that line of thought? It makes sense to me.

There's no validity to it at all. The terms "fast twitch" and "slow twitch" do not refer to speed of movement. Fast twitch fibers are just the ones that activate when more force is necessary. Slow twitch fibers are more easily activated and produce less force. When you do a maximum effort, regardless of how fast it is, you're using both.

I found a short article which explains this idea a little more: http://www.thinkmuscle.com/articles/haycock/hst-07.htm

mctrusty
May 16th, 2008, 12:33 PM
Anyway, here's the practice she submitted:

warm-up: 1000 kick with fins, choice
main set:
swim/pull 20x100 free on 1:45
kick 1000 with fins, choice
swim/pull 20x100 free, 10 swim, 10 pull on 1:45
kick 1000 with fins, choice
swim 10x100 free on 1:45 swim, pull or swim with fins

8,000 total

That's a lot of long kicking. I think kicking 200 at a time is boring, I can't imagine 1000s kicking!

The whole workout seems kinda boring to me. And way too many yards with fins--I'm guessing that helps bump up the mileage some ;). IMO, it'd be more effective to take off the fins and cut back the yards on those kicks to fit the same amount of time.

But then, I'm not an OW specialist, just an ADD middle-distance type.

knelson
May 16th, 2008, 01:16 PM
I'm guessing that helps bump up the mileage some

Even so it looks close to 2.5 hours. That's more time than I want to spend in the pool!

The Fortress
May 16th, 2008, 03:11 PM
George, I find it somewhat amusing that you advise not worrying about all those things...and then proceed to provide your own numbers! (I don't know my own numbers for ANY of those things, not even my resting HR.)

Your point is well taken, though. I would only disagree with you that working on "fast hard sprint repeats" and "all out sprints" comes naturally and will "just happen" in masters swimming.

At the masters level I do not believe that is true at all. I think the majority of practices at teams arouund the country are predominantly "medium speed" without too much rest...basically, what I would call "fitness swimming" rather than preparing to race.

Now, of course, the majority of USMS members have no interest in racing so maybe that is okay. It is maybe hard to convince those people to really push themselves to the edge.


George, it's a discussion forum! We're supposed to mull things over. Besides, people may not have time to do all the different types of aerobic work.

I 100% agree with Chris' point about "medium speed" masters practices. My own team has pretty well thought out workouts, but still, most of it's medium speed. Very little race pace. (Although on occasion, we'll have sprinter sets.) In fact, I just urged a friend who has hit a bit of a plateau to stop going to as many structured practices, swim on her own more and do some speed work. Some fast 25s beats 5000 yards any day if you want to improve your sprints.

stussy96
May 16th, 2008, 03:35 PM
You didn't do any aerobic training in college? I'm skeptical about this. And if you did do aerobic training in college perhaps that's why you were "way faster."


We did SOME aerobic training, but minimal. The sprinters work more off strength, so with the combo of a lot of lifting and dryland, we did a lot of race-pace stuff. Minimal aerobic. The most aerobic I did was with my club team.

Since I was in the sprint group in college, we did a lot of fast swims, but lots of rest. It's about training your body for speed. Fast twitch. You can't expect to swim 70-80% for most of practice and expect to swim fast in a meet. You body hasn't been training for that. A classic AM practice (after warmups, drills, minimal aerobic set (15x50 :50) or (8x100 1:15).... main set would be something like 6x50 5:00, from blocks, choice of stroke, racing speed. Our yardage was low (around 3-5k, depending on length of workout). But we were always swimming for time.

Now, the mid-distance groups and distance groups did a lot more yardage than the sprinters. They would easily hit 5,000 in a short practice. They were doing LOTS of aerobic stuff all the time. But that's the difference. You can't take a person that has been training for distance to be thrown into a 50 or 100 event and expect to succeed. Or vice versa. Their muscles haven't been training for that.

Thank goodness the school of thought on swim training has changed. "Garbage yardage" AKA swim yardage just to get yardage, is out the window. Why swim 8x200 or more with 15-20 rest? That's garbage! Especially if you're a sprinter. Now, if you're training for that, and descending the set, doing speed play, negative splitting, have a specific pace to hold, it's not AS much as garbage, but it still is a bit excessive.

The reason I was "way faster" in college?? I lifted multiple times a week and swam 2x a day. Now I swim, at the most, 1-2 times a week, when I have the time to go.

My philosophy of training: swim smarter, not farther. And I think that movement in coaching is really picking up.

geochuck
May 16th, 2008, 03:40 PM
To some people a warmump and cool down is aerobic swimming. Some one doing 200s can be aerobic or anerobic. Some of what people call sprints may only be aerobic or anerobic swims.

My preference of course are Max Vo2 workouts.

aquaFeisty
May 16th, 2008, 03:42 PM
So I've been reading through this whole thread (way cool thread, Fortress), but haven't said anything because I don't really feel qualified to speak to this topic.

However, I think that Chris and Leslie have nailed it when they said that too many masters practices are at medium speed. I think part of the problem is that when many masters (certainly me included!!!) think "aerobic workout" they think of a medium speed type set. Medium speed doesn't mean easy, but it is nowhere near race-speed or even max workout speed.

For me, I think aerobic set and I think something like:
15x100 - First 5 on 1:30, 2nd 5 on 1:25, last 5 back on 1:30 fastest speed on the last 5. For me, 1:30 is a pretty doable interval and 1:25 is doable also, though unpleasant. I'll certainly be hurting by the end of this set but if I'm really honest with myself, I'm still going medium speed.

Maybe part of what is needed is a mind shift... that aerobic can also mean ouch ouch ouch speed. Of all these posts, this one from Rich Abrahams has stuck with me (exerpted):



Personally, I like to work on all the different energy systems, although not at the same workout. Since I sometimes (foolishly) compete in the 200 free, I do some high level aerobic work once or twice a week, but the sets are never more than 1,000 meters. An example would be 4 X 50's with 10 seconds rest (i.e. broken 200's) X 5 with about 2 minutes rest between the broken swims. I subtract the 30 seconds of rest intervals to get my cumulative time and try to be within 5 seconds of my best 200 time.

My thought was, "Holy crap!!! That's an aerobic workout!" Our team has coached workouts, and they are often very good workouts, well thought out. However, we hardly ever do sets along these lines. I can't imagine that adding such high-intensity aerobic workouts wouldn't help your 100's... kinda span the gap between all-out 25s/50s and repeat 100s/200s at medium aerobic speed.

ande
May 16th, 2008, 03:46 PM
congratulations
sounds like you're training better and swimming faster

your current speed is related to how fast you were in your youth
but there's a list of factors that determines your speed now like:

1) what physical condition are you in now

2) what kind of training have you done recently (in the last year)

3) how strong you are

4) how many years you are from your peak training and ability

5) how old you are

6) what kind of pool

7) what kind of suit you wore

8) how mentally tough you are

9) how fast you've been in practice recently

it's very possible for you to swim faster than you did when you were 16





I have to agree with this comment. The best results I have had are a direct result of race paced training. I have managed to take 7 seconds off my 200 free time since January by swimming it just like I would in a race during practice. Going all out and getting my splits. Getting my body to get used to the lactic acid build up and learning to cope with the associated pain. Prior to this I was doing sets of 5 x 200m at 3:30 or 3:00 and my time just stayed the same. Now I will only do one 200 in a practice (and not everyday either) but I will do it FAST for time and good splits. Afterwards I might do 100's on 1:20 or even 200's on 3:00 but just cruising, concentrating on my stroke and not really exerting myself too much.


Here's a bit of a digression.
I have always had this sneaking suspicion that our current speeds are determined by how far we pushed ourselves in our youths. So if we raised out lactate threshold so that our body could accept the pain of doing a, say, 53 sec 100 when we were young it shouldn't be too difficult to get close to that again when we are older.

It's like your body has memory of this pain and if you could cope with it before, you can probably cope with it now (as long as your heart doesn't pack up)! However, if you never crossed this threshold in your youth, and even though you may be just as physically gifted as the person in the lane next to you who did, it is going to be much more difficult to beat them.

I am not saying that it is not possible. Just that it is going to be more difficult. In fact, I am hoping that I can do it myself. I was only really a useful swimmer when I was younger and stopped swimming at age 16 so I feel I never really developed my potential. I am hoping I can surpass some of those times this year.

Paul Smith
May 16th, 2008, 04:04 PM
Stacy & Jonathan,
You both referenced "short course" 50/100 times....since we are now officially in long course season this discussion needs to change a bit IMHO.

I will reiterate that its apples to oranges comparing SC to LC and unless you are swimming only 50's then you have to have more of an aerobic base if you want to be competitive in the 100.

Strength is still important, but for me when training LC I'll lift 1x a week doing power work on complimentary muscle groups and use power racks/cords/fins-paddles 2x a week in the pool...during SCY/SCM season it will be 2-3x a week weights and 2-3x a week cords/racks....I'll also swim closer to 3000m per workout 4x a week vs. 2000-2500 3-4x a week during SC season.

Granted I'm focusing not just on the 50/100 for long course but the 200 as well.

knelson
May 16th, 2008, 04:19 PM
The reason I was "way faster" in college?? I lifted multiple times a week and swam 2x a day.

This is the thing that's hard for me to get a handle on: that you did two-a-days, but still did nearly all race-paced swimming. Both workouts were primarily speed based? I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, just something I've never encountered personally.

Chris Stevenson
May 16th, 2008, 04:32 PM
Strength is still important, but for me when training LC I'll lift 1x a week doing power work on complimentary muscle groups and use power racks/cords/fins-paddles 2x a week in the pool...during SCY/SCM season it will be 2-3x a week weights and 2-3x a week cords/racks....I'll also swim closer to 3000m per workout 4x a week vs. 2000-2500 3-4x a week during SC season.

I dunno, Paul, that sure seems like A LOT. Combine all that with your spinning workouts and I think you're in danger of being voted off the USMS island by that other Smith for excessive training.

cdrcld
May 16th, 2008, 04:38 PM
Like someone submitted earlier, i am really enjoying this thread's discussion. But after following the thread for the past couple days, I find myself doubting the workouts I have been doing.

There really aren't too many master's programs here because most adult swimmers focus on open water swimming. But I swim with a crowd that still likes shorter races. Our unofficial credo is that "any race distance that includes a comma is banned." So we are sort of self-coached. I end up stealing most of the workouts I bring from www.swim.net (http://www.swim.net). Have any of you looked at that web site? Can anyone provide commentary on them? Are they relics? Or is that how you folks are swimming?

Chris

Paul Smith
May 16th, 2008, 04:43 PM
I dunno, Paul, that sure seems like A LOT. Combine all that with your spinning workouts and I think you're in danger of being voted off the USMS island by that other Smith for excessive training.


I cycle workouts 3 days on 1 off, never more than about 90 minutes a day total...love variety!

Allen Stark
May 16th, 2008, 07:14 PM
I was faster at 31 than in college.I think one reason was in college in the late 60s we only swam 200s of the strokes in dual meets so my training didn't have enough sprint work.
Also at 32 we had our 1st child and sleep deprivation slowed me down for a few years so I'm not sure if I might not have been even faster in my 30s than 20s(and yes I know being a mother is harder than being a father,but being a father seems plenty hard enough.)

cdrcld
May 16th, 2008, 07:50 PM
Also, after adapting some of the weight routine that the U of A & ASU groups utilize i have to admit I've gotten a LOT stronger. Old is new if you will, lots of Olympic style dead lifts, clean & jerk, squats....heavy weights low reps...working on explosiveness.

Paul,
Was wondering why you focus on that kind of weight lifting. No doubt when a swimmer is stronger, a swimmer is faster. But I haven't met swimmers who lift like you do. Obviously it seems to be working well...
I lift 3 x a week for an hour. But since I've had 4x shoulder surgeries, i spend most of that time trying to strengthen my scapular pulling, and trying to keep the rotator cuffs strong. Do you spend any time on shoulders??
Chris

Paul Smith
May 16th, 2008, 10:42 PM
Paul,
Was wondering why you focus on that kind of weight lifting. No doubt when a swimmer is stronger, a swimmer is faster. But I haven't met swimmers who lift like you do. Obviously it seems to be working well...
I lift 3 x a week for an hour. But since I've had 4x shoulder surgeries, i spend most of that time trying to strengthen my scapular pulling, and trying to keep the rotator cuffs strong. Do you spend any time on shoulders??
Chris

In spite of being a dinosaur, i try to stay in touch with what elite college programs are doing both in dryland and in the pool. No way can I replicate this in my own workouts after having 2 shoulder surgeries and 2 knee surgeries and getting an AARP card next year so i adapt to my own schedule and ability. I do shoulder work but minimal overhead and VERY light, keep the heavier lifts (for me) to back/legs.

The Fortress
May 20th, 2008, 09:37 AM
Isn't that the point?

George just likes to chide everyone who has goals since he doesn't compete or train anymore. :thhbbb: He's also already achieved many goals, while others haven't. At the very least, being goal oriented or chasing a dream can make you very fit and healthy.

I'm starting to think that I am doing more "aerobic" work -- however that is defined -- than I thought. Yesterday, I did some hypoxic work and underwater kicking. I think that counts. Then I went on to do 6 x 50 on 3:00. :)

geochuck
May 24th, 2008, 07:31 PM
Unfortunately like most dreams, they do not come true. I HAVE BEEN DREAMING OF WINNINIG THE LOTO 649. May be shouting I will.

We must make our dreams come true, but have our goals resonable, not sky hi and not obtainable.


Ya, having a dream is a better way to live. Without dreams we are simply mechanical beings, void of anything significant. It is the dream that
Dares
Reason
Engaging
Awareness
Manifesting
Significance

CreamPuff
May 24th, 2008, 09:28 PM
We must make our dreams come true, but have our goals resonable, not sky hi and not obtainable.

If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards. :lolup:

geochuck
May 26th, 2008, 04:40 PM
Many have dreams of breaking worlds records.

Some do break world records true.

Some do not break worlds records this is also true.

Jazz Hands
May 26th, 2008, 05:17 PM
Many have dreams of breaking worlds records.

Some do break world records true.

Some do not break worlds records this is also true.

Is there a point here?

scyfreestyler
May 26th, 2008, 06:06 PM
There are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we now know we don’t know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don’t know.

Donald Rumsfeld, circa 2002.

mctrusty
May 27th, 2008, 12:18 PM
Many have dreams of breaking worlds records.

Some do break world records true.

Some do not break worlds records this is also true.

Is there a point here?



Do or do not, there is no try


lol

ande
May 27th, 2008, 03:57 PM
let's make this simple

Sprint Training : good

Aerobic Training : bad

Paul Smith
May 27th, 2008, 04:03 PM
let's make this simple

Sprint Training : good

Aerobic Training : bad


i guess that makes me "good & bad"?!

jim clemmons
May 27th, 2008, 04:07 PM
i guess that makes me "good & bad"?!

In your case Paul, there's the exception. For you, it's "the good, the bad and the ugly".

:joker:

CreamPuff
May 27th, 2008, 04:08 PM
I love being "bad."
;)

scyfreestyler
May 27th, 2008, 04:29 PM
I love being "bad."
;)

:cool:

geochuck
May 27th, 2008, 04:55 PM
Aerobically extatic all the way.

To those who ask does there have to be a point.

To all those who sent birthday wishes to me on face book, I cannot access facebook here in Mexico. Thanks for the best wishes.

I did my 1000 meters today all of it aerobic. I also walked 5 miles with great pain in my calf muscles and maximus glutis.

Paul Smith
May 27th, 2008, 10:13 PM
Aerobically extatic all the way.

To those who ask does there have to be a point.

To all those who sent birthday wishes to me on face book, I cannot access facebook here in Mexico. Thanks for the best wishes.

I did my 1000 meters today all of it aerobic. I also walked 5 miles with great pain in my calf muscles and maximus glutis.

George, Mel & I have a few questions.

1) Is walking 5 miles with a margarita an aerobic or anaerobic exercise?

2) Do you switch hands to keep "balance" in your strokes when going back into the pool? or is a snorkel better?

3) How does an intense sunburn play into everything? Does this warrant a "recovery" day or do you push through?

4) Do you think there is any possible that (s)he is overtrained given the amount of time she spends on her glamour shots?

5) can Fortress really have as many ailments as she discusses here and on facebook or is she simply trying to lull us all into thinking she isn't 'tough'?

6) Was it really members of Kevin Doak's Gallup New Mexico fan club that accosted me at a Wendy's last Thursday or a figment of my imagination?

The Fortress
May 27th, 2008, 10:22 PM
I saw that, Smith!

Sadly, I am just breathing impaired and allergic to everything. Believe me, I wish I wasn't. It's exceedingly tedious and disrupts my mojo. I may cancel my next meet. I was on a roll before I got nailed. I need some dry heat please.

Nonetheless, I have been doing some light aerobic work with the remote control and working on my tan. I'm all caught up on Lost now.

What is "extatic?" Is George spelling impaired again? Or is it all those margaritas.

Paul Smith
May 27th, 2008, 11:38 PM
I saw that, Smith!

Sadly, I am just breathing impaired and allergic to everything. Believe me, I wish I wasn't. It's exceedingly tedious and disrupts my mojo. I may cancel my next meet. I was on a roll before I got nailed. I need some dry heat please.

Nonetheless, I have been doing some light aerobic work with the remote control and working on my tan. I'm all caught up on Lost now.

What is "extatic?" Is George spelling impaired again? Or is it all those margaritas.

Sorry Fort...but since meeting you and seeing you swim...and seeing your talent I'm not buying it. Your coaches, teamates & Mr. Fort might but not me. Ditch the excuses/complaints (including the "I'm short crap")...we all have them to some degree (or we wouldn't be "masters")...embrace them, man (gal) up...and go forth and kick some ass...I know what your capable of.

geochuck
May 28th, 2008, 02:56 AM
Paul I was delayed getting off to Mexico my grand son had a setback so we were delayed on our departure.

I do wish and dream of someday getting into the pool with you to do some very fast swimming as well as aerobic, anerobic, some max Vo2, we could also throw in some lactic threshold work.

The margaritas are fine but we had to switch to beer as we ran out of margarita mix.

Fort does not dream about swimming she has nightmares. She is a sickly one for sure.

The trick is to balance the margaritas while swimming and not to add chlorinated water.

The sun is important when yoiu want to know where you are going. I hate to walk at night after drinking a few giant Margaritas, I have got lost on my way home.

S(he) has a very nice avatar.

I would stay out of Wendy's you never know who you will run into.


George, Mel & I have a few questions.

1) Is walking 5 miles with a margarita an aerobic or anaerobic exercise?

2) Do you switch hands to keep "balance" in your strokes when going back into the pool? or is a snorkel better?

3) How does an intense sunburn play into everything? Does this warrant a "recovery" day or do you push through?

4) Do you think there is any possible that (s)he is overtrained given the amount of time she spends on her glamour shots?

5) can Fortress really have as many ailments as she discusses here and on facebook or is she simply trying to lull us all into thinking she isn't 'tough'?

6) Was it really members of Kevin Doak's Gallup New Mexico fan club that accosted me at a Wendy's last Thursday or a figment of my imagination?

geochuck
May 28th, 2008, 03:04 AM
Extatic is a great word. Look it up you will enjoy the meaning when combined with aerobically even with aenerobically.


I saw that, Smith!

Sadly, I am just breathing impaired and allergic to everything. Believe me, I wish I wasn't. It's exceedingly tedious and disrupts my mojo. I may cancel my next meet. I was on a roll before I got nailed. I need some dry heat please.

Nonetheless, I have been doing some light aerobic work with the remote control and working on my tan. I'm all caught up on Lost now.

What is "extatic?" Is George spelling impaired again? Or is it all those margaritas.

CreamPuff
May 28th, 2008, 10:23 AM
George, Mel & I have a few questions.


4) Do you think there is any possible that (s)he is overtrained given the amount of time she spends on her glamour shots?

5) can Fortress really have as many ailments as she discusses here and on facebook or is she simply trying to lull us all into thinking she isn't 'tough'?



Paul called me out. I'm really a closet sprinter who skips practices completely in lieu of posing for the camera and concocting ridiculous distance fly sets - none of which I ever really do. In fact, George has run into me quite a few times while I'm sipping margaritas poolside and taunting the distance swimmers.

Today's real practice (as written by Paul) was:
1x200 Warm Up w/ Noodle
4x25 @ 60 minutes
3x Margaritas

I think Fort may well have some ailments. Although she has an aversion towards moose, she doesn't mind being the underdog. :D

The Fortress
May 28th, 2008, 10:23 AM
Sorry Fort...but since meeting you and seeing you swim...and seeing your talent I'm not buying it. Your coaches, teamates & Mr. Fort might but not me. man (gal) up...and go forth and kick some ass...I know what your capable of.

Thanks for the pep talk! I know all that, I'm just completely irritated by the chronic sinus infections. Unless you're plagued with them, it's hard to understand what a downer they can be. But I'm going for an easy swim today and hopefully will be dead lifting again soon. The IGLA meet isn't until June 20-21, so I have time to get my speed on.

(S)he must have been inspired by Geek's comment about the pink wet suit. I'm even tempted to break out of my black suit rut and join her ... (S)he -- if I'm a Moose, can I no longer be Underdog?

geochuck
May 28th, 2008, 03:10 PM
Today was a day of rest. I did however make it over to the swim up bar and have my usual nutritious health power drinks. I think that girl in the bikini sitting at swim up bar was (S)he-man what a lovely tan what a big margarita she was holding. I think I also saw Fort a little short lady on crutches who was sneezing.


Paul called me out. I'm really a closet sprinter who skips practices completely in lieu of posing for the camera and concocting ridiculous distance fly sets - none of which I ever really do. In fact, George has run into me quite a few times while I'm sipping margaritas poolside and taunting the distance swimmers.

Today's real practice (as written by Paul) was:
1x200 Warm Up w/ Noodle
4x25 @ 60 minutes
3x Margaritas

I think Fort may well have some ailments. Although she has an aversion towards moose, she doesn't mind being the underdog. :D

Paul Smith
May 28th, 2008, 03:17 PM
Today was a day of rest. I did however make it over to the swim up bar and have my usual nutritious health power drinks. I think that girl in the bikini sitting at swim up bar was (S)he-man what a lovely tan what a big margarita she was holding. I think I also saw Fort a little short lady on crutches who was sneezing.

George, Jeff Commings, Sam Perry & I are going to set road blocks up in Arizona and "catch" you on your way home....there's no escape and heavy "aerobic" drinking will be involved.

geochuck
May 28th, 2008, 03:46 PM
We will be flying back 7 hour wait over in Phoenix. I sold something and have to get back to deliver it. Do they have a happy hour at the airport?

geochuck
May 28th, 2008, 03:58 PM
Jonathon here is the reason not to dream. They are very difficult to figure out.
http://www.geocities.com/hairybobby2000/dreamdf.html

kellys
May 29th, 2008, 04:50 PM
I agree with Knelson. Everyone should do aerobic sets and they should have a specific purpose which help someone become a better sprinter. Examples may include: drill sets working on technique, 2-turn 50 sets focusing on walls, streamlines, break-out strokes, etc.

Big AL
May 29th, 2008, 05:53 PM
Long story short, it comes down to your goal weight and how well your weight is stabilized.

If you are a big guy with a big appetite, like Paul (and me), the amount of aerobic work is proportional to the excess calories that don't get burned by the short-fast stuff.

For those not calorie challenged, the amount of aerobic work needed is whatever is required to flush out the muscles for the next round of short-fast stuff.... which is different for everyone and based upon an individual's general conditioning and level of effort.

The Fortress
June 1st, 2008, 01:11 PM
Re: Paul's prior comment that LC is a different animal. How true!

I went to my first LC practice of the year today. OMG, even going slow to medium, I was breathing hard. Much more actual swimming involved. I can't imagine doing a 100 fly LC without a decent aerobic base. I've decided that aerobic work doesn't just mean short interval work.