PDA

View Full Version : How to get stronger



pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 12:31 PM
Hey look a brand new thread on ways to get stronger, faster.

Paul

meldyck
May 15th, 2008, 12:48 PM
Do 40 dead lifts of someone who calls himself Hulk each and every day. That, together with your raisin bran, will keep you happy and healthy.

Meanwhile, I'm going off to my home gym to do a few lifts of someone who calls himself Mel Dyck to see if that helps. I already had my raisin bran.

pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 12:51 PM
Not quite Mel. It's all about challenging YOUR body to grow stronger, not challenging someone else's.

meldyck
May 15th, 2008, 02:19 PM
Not quite Mel. It's all about challenging YOUR body to grow stronger, not challenging someone else's.

I think I am challenging my body. If I can lift my body weight (pull ups, push ups, free dips etc) then I'll get strong enough to challenge Leslie to an arm wrestling contest after she's had a few beers. I'm up to 5 pull-ups, 20 free dips and 50 push ups at the moment (no break).

When I was 18 I couldn't lift my body weight even though I was 20 pounds lighter than I am now. I certainly HAVE gotten stronger through my weight and general strength training program.

I was only partially poking fun at you in the first post. I was challenging you to lift your body weight as a way to increase your own strength. I'm a great believer in body weight exercises. After all, many sports involve strength to weight ratio not absolute strength. If you haven't yet done so, check out crossfit.com for workouts from a bunch of crazy people who do body weight lifting all the time. If you can do what I do, then I'll not challenge you to an arm wrestling contest, even if you have one arm tied behind your back. Oh wait, I may be missing something here...

I just finished up 70 minutes of weight training.

pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 04:44 PM
I struggled to lift my bodyweight on pullups when I was powerlifting. The best I ever did was 10 pullups at 275 pounds :whiteflag:
And crossfit is the BOMB!!!! I tried a lot of thier exercises when I was powerlifting, whew.

Paul

Robert Strand
May 15th, 2008, 08:28 PM
I just lifted my wine glass seventeen times with no trouble. Some you people take this game a little to serious. Mel your the "man"!!!!!!

pwolf66
May 15th, 2008, 08:50 PM
How to get stronger, faster Tip 1

Free weights.

Machines are great for isolation exercises but the secret to maximizing strength gains is thru the use of free weights. Most machines lock the movement into a specific pattern. Again, great for isolation work but it takes the secondary and stabilizer muscles pretty much out of the picture.

meldyck
May 15th, 2008, 09:17 PM
I just lifted my wine glass seventeen times with no trouble. Some you people take this game a little to serious. Mel your the "man"!!!!!!

Bob,

I'm having trouble reading your post through my wine glass. You'll have to speak up!!

funkyfish
May 15th, 2008, 09:26 PM
If you've got the shoulders for it, standing shoulder presses either with barbell or d-bells are good. I also like overhead squats. Lately I've been doing some power cleans as part of my shoulder workout. Chins with an extra 90-115 lbs are good too.
:weightlifter::weightlifter::weightlifter:

Glider
May 15th, 2008, 10:30 PM
You guys need to share your secrets. What exerices? I'm thinking curls for sure, but what else? How many reps, sets? Make sure to put that in weight x sets x reps format, please:bump:

Also, how many bottles a week is required for this strenuous training? And how do you account for the lighter weight as the bottle depletes?

On the other hand, you probably get some additional sprint work in running to the bathroom every 15 minutes :wine:


Bob,

I'm having trouble reading your post through my wine glass. You'll have to speak up!!

The Fortress
May 15th, 2008, 10:34 PM
Bob,

I'm having trouble reading your post through my wine glass. You'll have to speak up!!

Pul-lease! This from the guy who gave up and left the beer garden?!

When you weight addicts can do superman streamlines on a pilates ball, we'll talk.

Much of this stuff sounds positively wicked on the shoulders. Deadlifts fine, but overhead squats and standing shoulder presses? How about how to get stronger while not ripping your rotator cuff? I'll just remind you all that a certain WR holder is recovering from RC surgery after bench pressing himself to the OR ...

3strokes
May 16th, 2008, 01:24 AM
I just lifted my wine glass seventeen times with no trouble. Some you people take this game a little to serious. Mel your the "man"!!!!!!

17? Yeah, but it gets lighter with every lift.

meldyck
May 16th, 2008, 07:33 AM
Pul-lease! This from the guy who gave up and left the beer garden?!

When you weight addicts can do superman streamlines on a pilates ball, we'll talk.

Much of this stuff sounds positively wicked on the shoulders. Deadlifts fine, but overhead squats and standing shoulder presses? How about how to get stronger while not ripping your rotator cuff? I'll just remind you all that a certain WR holder is recovering from RC surgery after bench pressing himself to the OR ...

OK, that's it. After I finish swimming today I'm coming home to do my all out Leslie bench presses. In other words, I'm planning to do repeat lifts with about 50 pounds on a very short bar.

I've already got bad shoulders, so what's the difference. Besides, I've once done a 1000 fly in competition. Have you made 125 continuous yet?

Anyhow, Grace and I were in the beer garden drinking by noon and you didn't show up to start drinking until it was after my bed time....

ALM
May 16th, 2008, 12:46 PM
If you're really serious about getting stronger... Perhaps this is the future of the LZR....

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2008-05-15-robotic-suit-iron-man_N.htm?csp=34



Robotic suit could make soldiers into 'Iron Man'
May 15, 2008
By Mark Jewell, Associated Press

Rex Jameson bikes and swims regularly, and plays tennis and skis when time allows. But the 5-foot-11, 180-pound software engineer is lucky if he presses 200 pounds — that is, until he steps into an "exoskeleton" of aluminum and electronics that multiplies his strength and endurance as many as 20 times.

With the outfit's claw-like metal hand extensions, he gripped a weight set's bar at a recent demonstration and knocked off hundreds of repetitions. Once, he did 500.

"Everyone gets bored much more quickly than I get tired," Jameson said.

Jameson — who works for robotics firm Sarcos in Salt Lake City, which is under contract with the U.S. Army — is helping assess the 150-pound suit's viability for the soldiers of tomorrow. The suit works by sensing every movement the wearer makes and almost instantly amplifying it.

The Army believes soldiers may someday wear the suits in combat, but it's focusing for now on applications such as loading cargo or repairing heavy equipment. Sarcos is developing the technology under a two-year contract worth up to $10 million, and the Army plans initial field tests next year....

Big AL
May 16th, 2008, 01:17 PM
Hey look a brand new thread on ways to get stronger, faster.

Paul

Everyone has their own thing to make it happen, but as an aging Masters, I find the most important thing to getting stronger faster is maintaining the ability push the envelope often.

Translation: don't go "over the top" in such a way that you are broken down for days and can't recover quickly. :whiteflag: Push it to the point that you know you will be good to go the following day, or a couple of days with a planned day of recovery in between. :toohurt:

imspoiled
May 16th, 2008, 02:27 PM
If you're really serious about getting stronger... Perhaps this is the future of the LZR....

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/techinnovations/2008-05-15-robotic-suit-iron-man_N.htm?csp=34

Yeah, but how do you swim in this?

jaegermeister
May 26th, 2008, 11:34 PM
I don't think I have an original idea on this topic, other than to say that I need to do more lifting myself.

I've gotten some interesting suggestions from a local swimmer and habitual lifter. None of this is new, but they certainly applies to me:

-get a lifting program that is sustainable. My challenge is to make it fit into my already hectic week. Maybe I'll swim no more than 3-4 days a week, lift more often?
-have a long term plan that includes periodization that centers around a goal event. This would include 12+ weeks of lifting for strength (16-20 reps per exercise, 5 sets each), then 12+ weeks of "growth" (12 reps) then harder resistance, as few as 4-6 reps for power in the weeks leading up to the focus event.
-hit each body region hard once a week. That could be Upper/lower/core if there are 3 sessions, or mix in core for 2 sessions/week.
-don't worry about lots of different exercises unless you really love being in the gym and can devote a lot of time to it.
-change your program every 4-6 weeks to avoid going stale. You can vary the routine in a number of ways- exercises, resistance, sequence, etc.

These are generalities, I know, but I think the big picture is as important as deciding which lifts to do. Anyone have any comments on these basic principles?

Jazz Hands
May 26th, 2008, 11:47 PM
I don't think I have an original idea on this topic, other than to say that I need to do more lifting myself.

I've gotten some interesting suggestions from a local swimmer and habitual lifter. None of this is new, but they certainly applies to me:

-get a lifting program that is sustainable. My challenge is to make it fit into my already hectic week. Maybe I'll swim no more than 3-4 days a week, lift more often?
-have a long term plan that includes periodization that centers around a goal event. This would include 12+ weeks of lifting for strength (16-20 reps per exercise, 5 sets each), then 12+ weeks of "growth" (12 reps) then harder resistance, as few as 4-6 reps for power in the weeks leading up to the focus event.
-hit each body region hard once a week. That could be Upper/lower/core if there are 3 sessions, or mix in core for 2 sessions/week.
-don't worry about lots of different exercises unless you really love being in the gym and can devote a lot of time to it.
-change your program every 4-6 weeks to avoid going stale. You can vary the routine in a number of ways- exercises, resistance, sequence, etc.

These are generalities, I know, but I think the big picture is as important as deciding which lifts to do. Anyone have any comments on these basic principles?

In general, this is good. You have to try different things out and see what is comfortable and effective. The stuff about reps and body parts however many times per week isn't really based on anything. For a beginner, full body workouts three times a week with one or two sets of 10-15 reps is a fine starting point, but I won't claim it's the only thing that works.

The Fortress
May 26th, 2008, 11:54 PM
Does it make a huge difference whether you lift full body and core 2x a week versus shorter sessions 4x a week? I'm assuming the latter is preferable, but is it necessary? I just find it easier to hit the gym for longer sessions than many shorter sessions.

Allen Stark
May 27th, 2008, 01:34 AM
I lift twice a week and I seem to get better results than when I lifted 3X/wk.It is a balance between swimming and lifting as I don't have unlimited time.

mattson
May 27th, 2008, 02:01 PM
I think everyone is missing the important point. Any advice has to apply to Mel getting stronger. :doh: I think Mel has to find the right foods to mask steroids in his urine. And then get bitten by a radioactive spider.


Not quite Mel. It's all about challenging YOUR body to grow stronger, not challenging someone else's.

ande
May 27th, 2008, 03:09 PM
that is funny
shouldn't he be stung by a radioactive sting ray


I think everyone is missing the important point. Any advice has to apply to Mel getting stronger. :doh: I think Mel has to find the right foods to mask steroids in his urine. And then get bitten by a radioactive spider.

Paul Smith
May 27th, 2008, 04:08 PM
I lift twice a week and I seem to get better results than when I lifted 3X/wk.It is a balance between swimming and lifting as I don't have unlimited time.


Same with me Allen.

meldyck
May 27th, 2008, 08:59 PM
I think everyone is missing the important point. Any advice has to apply to Mel getting stronger. I think Mel has to find the right foods to mask steroids in his urine. And then get bitten by a radioactive spider.

Who's trying to mask the steroids? I bought 'em fair and square on the black market. By the way, does fried chicken work?

One of my cats has eaten a bunch of spiders lately and now he can walk on the ceiling. Good thing I don't have a pet pig...

CreamPuff
May 27th, 2008, 09:12 PM
I've enjoyed this thread. I have to say that "how to get stronger" is not really in any of my top 10 swimming concerns. I'm not fully sold in that stronger = faster. Perhaps it's because I swim with some Olympic Trials girls who are the size of toothpicks. In the meantime, I will continue to not sweat during my gym routine.

Paul Smith
May 27th, 2008, 10:04 PM
I've enjoyed this thread. I have to say that "how to get stronger" is not really in any of my top 10 swimming concerns. I'm not fully sold in that str Perhaps it's because I swim with some Olympic Trials girls who are the size of toothpicks. In the meantime, I will continue to not sweat during my gym routine.

(S)he, I may be wrong but will assume that until you tell me otherwise these are the same high school age girls you've been training with. My suggestion is to look at what the gals at U of A or Auburn or doing for a more relevant comparison.

Strength is hands down one of the critical components to go to the next level" whether were talking about a high school girl making cuts vs. a high school girl who will final at trials (there are 2) or a USS club level swimmer (check out the Race Club site and maybe chat with Gary or Mike Bottom about strength) or a masters swimmer hanging on for dear life (Ande, me, John Smith, my wife Laura, Rich Abrahams, etc. etc.).

IMHO of course.

The Fortress
May 27th, 2008, 10:18 PM
In the meantime, I will continue to not sweat during my gym routine.

No sweating?! What the heck are you doing then?

Not in your top ten concerns?!

C'mon, you have to admit that strength training is important for sprinters. And you can be strong and not look like a moose. At least that's what Smith says. Plus, as you age, and I realize you're a mere babe yet, it's important to stay strong to not lose muscle mass and to keep those dessicating tendons happy. When I get too busy to lift, my shoulder and back start hurting.

jaegermeister
May 27th, 2008, 10:30 PM
Paul, if you don't mind me asking, if you go to the gym twice a week, do you do lots of different exercises and make it an extended workout, or do you just concentrate on a few that replicate motions that swimmers use?

Jazz Hands
May 27th, 2008, 10:30 PM
I'm not fully sold in that stronger = faster.

I am. You have to experience it personally, I guess.

funkyfish
May 27th, 2008, 10:49 PM
Paul, if you don't mind me asking, if you go to the gym twice a week, do you do lots of different exercises and make it an extended workout, or do you just concentrate on a few that replicate motions that swimmers use?

I understand this question is for Paul, but it touches on something I've discovered for myself. You can lift twice a week, get stronger, and not have to hit each body part each week. I lift on Sundays and Thursdays, and rotate through muscle groups to where I hit each group roughly once every 12-13 days. If you're able to lift heavy enough, you can stress the muscle and come back stronger even with the extra days off. My two cents.
:bouncing:

jaegermeister
May 27th, 2008, 11:12 PM
I rotate through muscle groups to where I hit each group roughly once every 12-13 days. If you're able to lift heavy enough, you can stress the muscle and come back stronger even with the extra days off. My two cents.
:bouncing:


This is very interesting, as the lifter I was getting inspiration from said something similar- that you don't have to do every exercise every time, but make it count when you go to the gym by pushing harder. I guess there's some judgement on whether you "stress the muscle" through higher reps or higher resistance, depending on how far out you are from your focus event.

Paul Smith
May 27th, 2008, 11:34 PM
I have tried several different "routines" and feel pretty strongly that variety is very important.

My own belief is to try and build overall power in my major muscle groups doing non-swimming specific exercises (squats, dead lifts, etc.)...Currently I lift very hard cycling 4 different workouts (all are push/pull free weight/Olympic oriented) then take 3 days off between workouts....All done on non-speed/lactate swim days.

Because there is so little time between austin/Portland i'm going to train veery differently than in the past..no major build up of yardage and be broken down..lots of quality work in the pool (3x a week), hard lifting (2x a week), running stadiums (1x a week) & spinning (2x a week).

We'll see....nothing over a 200 in Portland.

ehoch
May 28th, 2008, 01:42 AM
I think stronger is easy -- but are we not really looking for power - power in the water that is.

Plus - just adding strength usually adds size (the muscle kind) - and that's not always a good thing. How do add power without getting a lot bigger ?

I am really not sure -

But I do strongly believe in doing resistance work in the water in combination with your lifting routine - I have a love/hate relationship with my parachute.

Jazz Hands
May 28th, 2008, 01:45 AM
Plus - just adding strength usually adds size (the muscle kind) - and that's not always a good thing. How do add power without getting a lot bigger ?

Maybe eventually I'll get tired of saying this. Try it before you say being bigger isn't a good thing.

CreamPuff
May 28th, 2008, 10:11 AM
(S)he, I may be wrong but will assume that until you tell me otherwise these are the same high school age girls you've been training with. My suggestion is to look at what the gals at U of A or Auburn or doing for a more relevant comparison.


:lmao: Look @ what Auburn gals are doing for a relevant comparison?

Paul, I think I see what you are saying. Is what you are saying - see how strong - and consequently fast- Auburn gals are? So true. However, comparing myself to U of A or Auburn gals or gals who final at Trials seems completely irrelevant. I will never be there. It's also a heck of a stretch to compare myself to gals who just make the OT cuts - although it's not as large of a leap as the first example. I think I'll check out what they are doing in Tipperary prior to sailing over to Never Never Land.

Fort, I'm enjoying myself in the weight room. I need not worry about weight room burnout. Or injuring myself there. Ever. Or moose - well, except for when I'm in a fastskin at which point I am often mistaken for one. :D

Jazz Hands
May 28th, 2008, 10:28 AM
:lmao: Look @ what Auburn gals are doing for a relevant comparison?

Paul, I think I see what you are saying. Is what you are saying - see how strong - and consequently fast- Auburn gals are? So true. However, comparing myself to U of A or Auburn gals or gals who final at Trials seems completely irrelevant. I will never be there. It's also a heck of a stretch to compare myself to gals who just make the OT cuts - although it's not as large of a leap as the first example. I think I'll check out what they are doing in Tipperary prior to sailing over to Never Never Land.

Fort, I'm enjoying myself in the weight room. I need not worry about weight room burnout. Or injuring myself there. Ever. Or moose - well, except for when I'm in a fastskin at which point I am often mistaken for one. :D

This is called selling yourself short. You can either say "Oh I'm sooooo slow, I would be embarrassed to train like an elite athlete," or you can figure out what it takes to swim faster and do it.

Big hint: get stronger. It's almost like cheating. The most effective form of cheating in swimming is anabolic steroids. All they do is make you more muscular. What would happen if you got more muscular without drugs?

MAC swimmer
May 28th, 2008, 11:32 AM
"Stronger" means that you are building strength over time from where you are now...that means lifting more weight...more often.

For a someone like me (non-highschool, noncollege swimmer), strength makes me feel better and last longer in the pool. But technique is where I can gain the most time (like breaking 1:00 in the 100 free). For example, how is lifting strength training going to get me to be able to do 3 SDK underwater for the 3 turns? It won't. Better technique will...

Chris Stevenson
May 28th, 2008, 02:29 PM
Big hint: get stronger. It's almost like cheating.

Jazz, you crack me up. Months ago you were upset and defensive because everyone was telling you how to train, and you wanted to do your own thing.

Kristina is enjoying her training and is getting results. I am sure the fact that she enjoys it is a big reason WHY she is getting results...just the same as you.

Paul Smith
May 28th, 2008, 02:41 PM
:lmao: Look @ what Auburn gals are doing for a relevant comparison?

Paul, I think I see what you are saying. Is what you are saying - see how strong - and consequently fast- Auburn gals are? So true. However, comparing myself to U of A or Auburn gals or gals who final at Trials seems completely irrelevant. I will never be there. It's also a heck of a stretch to compare myself to gals who just make the OT cuts - although it's not as large of a leap as the first example. I think I'll check out what they are doing in Tipperary prior to sailing over to Never Never Land.

Fort, I'm enjoying myself in the weight room. I need not worry about weight room burnout. Or injuring myself there. Ever. Or moose - well, except for when I'm in a fastskin at which point I am often mistaken for one. :D

Actually what I'm saying based on your earlier question/statement about not being sold on the whole "strength = faster" correlation is that comparing yourself to teen OT qualifiers vs. mature collegiate swimmers is not a fair comparison...and I use a couple of excellent collegiate women's programs as models for what someone who may be looking to learn more about innovative training methods might find of value.

Don't get me wrong, not trying to lecture you here so if your content with what your doing more power to you. For me even as a dinosaur i enjoy studying up on what other sports like track, cycling, etc. are doing as well as successful swim programs...its a losing battle each year as things continue to fall apart but I'm always hoping to learn/try new things and still get faster in spite of joining AARP soon!

Jazz Hands
May 28th, 2008, 02:55 PM
Jazz, you crack me up. Months ago you were upset and defensive because everyone was telling you how to train, and you wanted to do your own thing.

Kristina is enjoying her training and is getting results. I am sure the fact that she enjoys it is a big reason WHY she is getting results...just the same as you.

I don't advocate doing whatever we feel like just because it feels good. Enjoyment is necessary for an optimal training plan, but it's not sufficient. I think strength training is crucial for swimmers to do their best. I thought that when everyone said I was going to have a heart attack, and I still think that when I tell other people to try it now.

The Fortress
May 28th, 2008, 02:56 PM
Fort, I'm enjoying myself in the weight room. I need not worry about weight room burnout. Or injuring myself there. Ever. Or moose - well, except for when I'm in a fastskin at which point I am often mistaken for one. :D

You don't look like a Moose in that glamor shot! When are they going to come out with a custom color LZR for you?

You've obviously rocketed to the top by training with a USS team. So it's hard to argue with that. There are other routes to the top though, including Jazz's. It seems to me that most women skimp on this easy "cheating" way of improving and continue to do the "medium speed" stuff. Seems like increased lifting would be a surefire way to have a breakthrough for many, including maybe me. Of course, no one wants to be a Moose because we are too vain and and/or desire some femininity ... So how much can you lift without becoming the Hulk?

Jazz Hands
May 28th, 2008, 03:09 PM
Fort, it's an unfortunate fact that men swim faster than women, and really fast women tend to kind of look like men. If you really want to be a beast in the water, femininity might suffer.

aquageek
May 28th, 2008, 03:15 PM
Fort, it's an unfortunate fact that men swim faster than women, and really fast women tend to kind of look like men. If you really want to be a beast in the water, femininity might suffer.

OK, JH, I've kinda let you off the hook for a while now but are you smokin' da crack? I think today's elite women, from the US anyway, are a great looking bunch of women, and not the least bit masculine in appearance.

pwolf66
May 28th, 2008, 03:32 PM
Fort, it's an unfortunate fact that men swim faster than women, and really fast women tend to kind of look like men. If you really want to be a beast in the water, femininity might suffer.

Jazz, I love you like a brother but oh man, I have to jump on you for this one too. This is such a RIDICULOUS stereo type that muscular women are not feminine. I'm sorry, unless a female pump yourself up to HUGE proportions (of which, MAYBE .05% of females have the genetic potential to do), then I'm sorry, a female is still feminine in my book.

But this is part of the problem with the thought of women doing any serious strength training. 'I'll look masculine' nope, sorry, what you'll look like is a very fit and muscular woman. Which is dang sexy.

Paul

Chris Stevenson
May 28th, 2008, 03:36 PM
I don't advocate doing whatever we feel like just because it feels good. Enjoyment is necessary for an optimal training plan, but it's not sufficient. I think strength training is crucial for swimmers to do their best. I thought that when everyone said I was going to have a heart attack, and I still think that when I tell other people to try it now.

I agree that enjoyment is not sufficient to swim fast and improve, but:

-- Strength training comes in many forms. It can even happen outside of the gym and in the swimming pool.

-- (S)he is swimming faster than she has recently, so it is clear that she isn't just splashing around in the pool.

There is more than one good way to train and more than one definition of success in masters swimming. That is why I defended your right to train as you wish, despite the fact that it is clear (to me) to be useful mostly for 50s. (S)he is swimming many events with fast times so if I had to judge strictly by those results I would stop lifting and start swimming 7000+ yard workouts with the kids.

The Fortress
May 28th, 2008, 03:39 PM
Fort, it's an unfortunate fact that men swim faster than women, and really fast women tend to kind of look like men. If you really want to be a beast in the water, femininity might suffer.

(S)he-Beast is a beast without looking remotedly beast-like or moose-like. Muscular is fine. Think I'm already there. But beast-like?! Hard to believe that lifting 2x a week would make you beast like.

Jazz Hands
May 28th, 2008, 03:39 PM
Jazz, I love you like a brother but oh man, I have to jump on you for this one too. This is such a RIDICULOUS stereo type that muscular women are not feminine. I'm sorry, unless you pump yourself up to HUGE proportions (of which, MAYBE .05% of females have the genetic potential to do), then I'm sorry, you're still feminine in my book.

But this is part of the problem with the thought of women doing any serious strength training. 'I'll look masculine' nope, sorry, what you'll look like is a very fit and muscular woman. Which can be dang sexy.

Paul

You're right, Paul. I was buying into the stereotype there, and I don't even think it's true.

pwolf66
May 28th, 2008, 03:47 PM
Let's get off this 'beast-like' and 'moose-like' thought patterns here. Without drug assistance MAYBE 1 in 10,000 women have the genetic POTENTIAL for extreme muscularity.

With drug assistance that might go to 1 in 1000. No, I'm not quoting scientic fact but with all that I have read and my personal experiences, it is just MUCH more difficult for a women to acheive a high degree of muscle mass. The testosterone supplies just are not there to support that level of muscle building.

Don't focus on the 1 in 10000 that do display that level of muscle mass. Trust me, working out 3 days a week using free weights is not going to get you huge bulging muscles.

Paul

Jazz Hands
May 28th, 2008, 03:51 PM
Wait a second.


I'm sorry, unless you pump yourself up to HUGE proportions ... then I'm sorry, you're still feminine in my book.

I think Hulk called me a girl!

pwolf66
May 28th, 2008, 03:53 PM
Wait a second.



I think Hulk called me a girl!


Nope, you're still puny so you're safe.

Paul

aquageek
May 28th, 2008, 03:54 PM
Hard to believe that lifting 2x a week would make you beast like.

Trust me, it won't, not even remotely close. Actually, it is possible to lift twice a week with absolutely no noticeable change in appearance!!!!

CreamPuff
May 28th, 2008, 03:56 PM
You don't look like a Moose in that glamor shot! When are they going to come out with a custom color LZR for you?

You've obviously rocketed to the top by training with a USS team. So it's hard to argue with that. There are other routes to the top though, including Jazz's. It seems to me that most women skimp on this easy "cheating" way of improving and continue to do the "medium speed" stuff. Seems like increased lifting would be a surefire way to have a breakthrough for many, including maybe me. Of course, no one wants to be a Moose because we are too vain and and/or desire some femininity ... So how much can you lift without becoming the Hulk?

And/ or society places incredible pressure on us to look a certain way. . .

Well. . . let me clarify in that those times for this past SCY season were done when I trained masters.The only time during that season that I swam w/ the kids was during the holiday break (mid December into early Jan) and for a short while in September.

Having swum masters practices for five years, I needed a change of pace so I thought it would be fun to swim USS before I get too old and crusty to recover. Although it is questionable as to whether or not that time has come! :lmao:It has certainly ignited a new passion in me for the sport. I'm awed every day I go to practice and I'm sure to see something new and amazing.

I think Jazz and Paul Smith (and others) know what to do to get an end result. And if I haven't said it before, I really admire both of you guys, Chris Stevenson, Ande, Hulk, Geek, Stud (where the heck has he been lately), Jonathan, and of course George. If I were 100% concerned with rankings and more importantly swimming fast at meets, I'd have to pony up and adopt a different way of thinking. Right now, it's all about process for me. End results aren't so important coming off this last SCY season.

Let's call a dog a dog. Or a moose a moose. Frankly, I'm thinking I'm just going through a pre-midlife crisis. The one bonus is that I do feel 18 in swimming with the kids. And that was a very good year. :woot:

Look, in most every aspect of our lives (consultants can agree with me here), we feel a need to focus on end results, winning, efficiency, time, quality, etc. What's the most efficient way to get the best result for the best $$. GAH! This is my, uh, hobby. I enjoy some inefficiency, relaxation, bubble blowing, breathing room, taking the path less traveled, what have you, for a bit each practice. Then throw in some crazy hard sets that I may or may not be able to do. And I'm a happy camper.

BTW, I see women (masters and USS) swimming very fast speeds rather than *medium* speed in practices. Heck, we did some 100s and 150s on 1:10 and 1:45 LC just today. I went last in my lane which was humbling.

I like to kid about the moose thing. I actually PM'd Ande a while back telling him that I was going to start sweating during my weight routine. I may. I'm not too concerned about :roids::roids:. It is so FUN to joke about it though. Fort, when I was lifting 3x a week for some of the SCY season, I just watched my weight and made sure not to eat junk and I stayed the same. I don't think you need worry. But you'll NEVER catch me doing those dead lift things.

Jazz Hands
May 28th, 2008, 03:57 PM
Trust me, it won't, not even remotely close. Actually, it is possible to lift twice a week with absolutely no noticeable change in appearance!!!!

Yep. It's more than just how often you lift.

- Intensity (gotta lift heavy)
- Hormones (being a young male is optimal)
- Food (protein and calories)

aquageek
May 28th, 2008, 04:01 PM
Why should I lift heavy? I have no desire whatsoever to add mass, nor to win any weight competition. I think the gotta lift heavy mantra was roundly discredited about 2 decades ago. I train with some pretty super fast swimmers and none of them go beserk on the heavy weights.

I've wondered if a pre midlife crisis is desirable over a full blown midlife crisis. The older you are the more expensive the mid life crisis. My father's came with a brand new shiny wife, along with the requisite fast car.

Jazz Hands
May 28th, 2008, 04:04 PM
Why should I lift heavy? I have no desire whatsoever to add mass, nor to win any weight competition. I think the gotta lift heavy mantra was roundly discredited about 2 decades ago. I train with some pretty super fast swimmers and none of them go beserk on the heavy weights.

Those three things are only for if you want more muscle mass, which I think is the primary way strength training leads to faster swimming.

aquageek
May 28th, 2008, 04:12 PM
I prefer to think of weights as one part of the faster swimming equation out of the water. For some, like Stud, it's 'roids and Red Bull, for others of us, we work hard in many ways. Doing a bunch of dead lifts with huge weights and then running and gutting out a fast swim is one way, but there are many others as well.

The Fortress
May 28th, 2008, 04:12 PM
Those three things are only for if you want more muscle mass, which I think is the primary way strength training leads to faster swimming.

I thought I read that lifting heavy increased strength not mass?

(S)he, dead lifts are easy. They're not that different than machines. Swimming was definitely my mid-life crisis. No desire whatsoever to train with kids though. Could never make the intervals. Prefer to do speed and lactate work. I have no problem with doing 100s on the 2:00 or 3:00 or 4:00.

Jazz Hands
May 28th, 2008, 04:17 PM
Deadlift is one word, guys.

Fort, "heavy" is a relative term. I meant it as reasonable heavy, or under about 20 reps. However, I've always liked the super-heavy stuff for mass, as well. The bodybuilding orthodoxy is that low reps can't build mass, but there's not a lot of real evidence there. Either way, I love going for a one-rep max on deadlifts.

Paul Smith
May 28th, 2008, 04:21 PM
I'm not sure where/why people here think that lifting hard and developing power equates adding bulk...have you looked at the physiques of any world class swimmer? Geek, there is a nothing in common between power lifting and body building other than both are done in the gym.

As I've mentioned many times before I have a few different programs i try to follow and adapt the training methods to my own situation...here is a great article that gives an overview of what I aspire to on a much abbreviated level...and given my penchant for good food/drink I've long ago given up on having my 6 pack back!

http://www.menshealthsa.co.za/index.php?cat=47&art_id=1701

(S)he...for me the end result is simply the goal that helps me stay focused and motivated to train....I'm a firm beleiver in the journey not the destination being equal to those few minutes of a major meet 2-3x a year.

aquageek
May 28th, 2008, 04:30 PM
Geek, there is a nothing in common between power lifting and body building other than both are done in the gym.


Thanks for the lesson and the lesson on dead lifting.

That part of the gym, I avoid like the plague. Too many cheese balls (is that one or two words?) in parachute pants wearing tank tops strutting around in personalized leather lifting belts with lots and lots of bling. I've really enjoyed adding weights to my routine the past two years and I can tell a difference in both appearance (mainly definition) and pool strength.

SwimStud
May 28th, 2008, 04:42 PM
-- Strength training comes in many forms. It can even happen outside of the gym and in the swimming pool.


Yup, anywone want to come and yard work with me?

pwolf66
May 28th, 2008, 07:58 PM
That part of the gym, I avoid like the plague. Too many cheese balls (is that one or two words?) in parachute pants wearing tank tops strutting around in personalized leather lifting belts with lots and lots of bling. I've really enjoyed adding weights to my routine the past two years and I can tell a difference in both appearance (mainly definition) and pool strength.

There is a huge difference between strength training and body building. The similarity is that they both use resistance training as the key method of training but it's HOW they use it that is the major difference.

Why let someone else dictate what you will or will not do? So they're morons, who cares? Sure, there are idiots out there. The bounce the bar off the chest bench press guy, the 2 inch squat guy, the screamer, etc.. but what's the point of letting others decide your routine for you.

Also, the human body has such an amazing capability to adapt that if you don't keep throwing different things at it, then you are really just spinning your wheels. Sure, you can spend your hours in the gym (not saying you do but..) and get results, but seriously, who has that kind of time? Even when I was powerlifting, I spent no more than 1.5 hours in the gym in any session and was closer to an hour. I also trained with quite a few folks who said they _had_ to train for at least 2 hours a day. Where they wrong? Maybe. Could they have gotten the same results in less time? Most definately.

It's about working smarter, not harder. And the fact is the best overall strength building exercise that exists is the deadlift. It requires strong calves, quads, hamstrings, hip flexors, abs, low back, upper back and shoulders. That's pretty much every major muscle group that you have. Yes, you can achieve close (note: CLOSE) to the same results with other exercises but it will take much longer.

The fact is people are afraid of deadlifts because it is a very intimidating and technical lift. And yes, done poorly, it can cause issues but so can a lot of other exercises. And it is a lift that can be learned and mastered.

Paul

Paul Smith
May 28th, 2008, 08:59 PM
Mr. Hulk,
I have to say its at times really interesting to me that we have these kinds of debates...I enjoy them don't get me wrong...but the plain and simple fact is that there is not an "elite" USS, Collegiate or Masters swimmer who isn't doing some pretty aggressive strength training...yet here we are having to justify and explain that dead lifts are actually a good thing and you won't "bulk up" doing strength training...go figure.

So to all my competitors who doubt the benefits and thing (like Geek) they might get big thighs from squats or hurt themselves doing dead lifts or other Olympic style lifting...PLEASE keep that mindset!

geochuck
May 28th, 2008, 09:00 PM
Eat lots of garlic, take Vitamin B Complex with C Fortes and massive doses of Vitamin E

jaegermeister
May 28th, 2008, 11:24 PM
Regarding deadlifts: my sense is that I might want a few weeks in the gym doing standard stuff before advancing to the D-L, but maybe that's an emotional issue rather than a physical one. I suppose that given the right instruction (I doubt I've done a D-L in 3 decades) and starting off easy, you could start any time.

My only physical issue right now is a raggy ankle, so that's my excuse, as much as it stinks.

The Fortress
May 28th, 2008, 11:24 PM
Eat lots of garlic, take Vitamin B Complex with C Fortes and massive doses of Vitamin E

Thanks, George. I just read that on the internet as well, as I am wont to obsessively research things. It's too bad margaritas aren't particularly good for the immune system.

Tom: I think your DL issue is emotional. A long as you're using good technique and start with a reasonable weight, I think you'd be fine.

I have to say, I find body builders totally unattractive. Not sure why anyone would want to pound creatine and have bulging muscles. But to each his own, I guess.

jaegermeister
May 28th, 2008, 11:30 PM
Tom: I think your DL issue is emotional.

OK, I'm in agreement. Maybe I should do a jaegerbomb or two to get my courage going! :drink:
:joker:

jaegermeister
May 28th, 2008, 11:31 PM
Tom: I think your DL issue is emotional.

Actually, what am I waiting for? It'd be another chance to embarrass my teenagers.

The Fortress
May 28th, 2008, 11:31 PM
OK, I'm in agreement. Maybe I should do a jaegerbomb or two to get my courage going! :drink:
:joker:

If I can do it, you can do it. So just do it! (uh, when the pain from the freaky accident to the ankle subsides.)

Your signature is misleading! You're not 50 yet!

jaegermeister
May 28th, 2008, 11:37 PM
Your signature is misleading! You're not 50 yet!

This is true, thanks for the chance to clarify. I seriously doubt I'll have any competition before my birthday, though as I've announced on FB the coming out party will be at Big Shoulders 4 days after I start getting AARP mailings:

http://www.bigshoulders.org/

Anyone wanting birthday cake on the beach, just let me know if you'll be there and I'll try to plan accordingly.

And to further clarify, my lifetime best in 100 back SCY is about what Fortress did when she was 12 years old, so that's my goal.

The Fortress
May 28th, 2008, 11:48 PM
And to further clarify, my lifetime best in 100 back SCY is about what Fortress did when she was 12 years old, so that's my goal.

That's my goal too. lol. Now that I get that you have to work the upsweep of SDKs as well as the downsweep, I'll have some chance of improving on my 12 year old times. :groovy:

Paul Smith
May 29th, 2008, 08:59 AM
Tom, anything new can be a bit scary...especially lifting free weights. A clarification, when i say that I believe in lifting "heavy" its VERY relative. Being an old fart and not wanting to risk injury the amount of weight i use is a joke to someone like PW or JH...BUT it worked very well for both Laura and I this past spring and were doing the 12 week program again for Portland. Today is the 4th of 4 workouts done every 3 days:


This am (takes about 25 minutes):
- Deadlift: 2 sets 5-7 reps, 1 set 12-15, 3 minutes res between each
- Romanian Deadlift: 2 sets 8-10 reps, 2 minutes rest
- Standing Dumbll shrug: 2 sets 10-12, 2 minutes rest
- Swiss Ball crunch: 2 sets 20-25, 1 minute rest
- Plank held for 2 minutes
- Seated Russian twist; 2 sets 15-20 reps, 45 seconds rest
- Plank held for 2 minutes

Noon recovery swim:
- will be about 20 minutes of sculling and underwater work

nkfrench
May 29th, 2008, 10:28 AM
It's too bad margaritas aren't particularly good for the immune system.

Whut ?! That was my major source of vitamin C for a while.

funkyfish
May 29th, 2008, 11:12 AM
Romanian Deadlift: 2 sets 8-10 reps, 2 minutes rest
Most awesome exercise! I started doing these about 6 weeks ago after a 10 year hiatus from them. I'd do them before squats, and while my squat initially went down, it was worth it. I've now switched back to doing squats first and was able to do 405 nice and controlled.

Good mornings are also good for hips, lower back, and hamstrings.

I am also in agreement of mixing things up - reps, exercises, order of exercises, amount of rest between sets, d-bell vs. barbell, etc. Helps to take the edge off the boredom factor.

:bouncing:

mctrusty
May 29th, 2008, 01:35 PM
As I've mentioned many times before I have a few different programs i try to follow and adapt the training methods to my own situation...here is a great article that gives an overview of what I aspire to on a much abbreviated level...and given my penchant for good food/drink I've long ago given up on having my 6 pack back!

http://www.menshealthsa.co.za/index.php?cat=47&art_id=1701



Thanks for that article! The paragraph about body rotation helped me instantly start to fix a problem that I've been having with my left arm pull. It made me realize that I have really crappy rotation to my left.


The power in your stroke comes out of the rotation and the arms merely direct where you’re going.I've always tried to generate most of my power from the lats and across my back, instead of focusing more on using my abs and hips to do so. After reading the article, I put on the snorkel yesterday and this morning and really worked on getting a good balanced roll. Then I did a set this morning, sans snorkel, trying to maintain that and found that I was able to maintain a good pace (for me, ~1:15/100 Y for a broken 1650) with less fatigue.

I think it's going to make a big difference for my freestyle. I still have a lot of work to do on it, though. Now, I need to focus on keeping my head from waggling around while maintaining the same hip rotation.

mattson
May 29th, 2008, 03:17 PM
It's too bad margaritas aren't particularly good for the immune system.

But 1-2 glasses of red wine still has health benefits.

To get back on topic, there is an interesting YouTube video of Troy Polomalu (Steeler) working out. The trainer, Marv Marinovich, stressed explosive movement exercises, to simulate the action that football players would experience. A normal power lifting routine would make you stronger, but not as powerful for quick movements.

richabrahams
May 29th, 2008, 04:13 PM
A friend just told me about "slosh pipes". The Youtube videos look like it'd be great core work. Oh great, something else to injure myself with.

Check it out.

Rich

Jazz Hands
May 29th, 2008, 04:47 PM
A friend just told me about "slosh pipes". The Youtube videos look like it'd be great core work. Oh great, something else to injure myself with.

Check it out.

Rich

So the water sloshes around in the pipe? That's cool. Instability is a great tool for building strength, because it increases the difficulty without increasing stress on the joints.

pwolf66
May 29th, 2008, 06:54 PM
Yes, and that is major reason why free weights are far superior to machines. You not only have to lift/move the weight, you have to stabilize it too.

Paul

Paul Smith
May 29th, 2008, 07:20 PM
Found a very cool website with demo's of the different exercises we have been discussing:

http://www.webs.uidaho.edu/strength/

swimr4life
May 30th, 2008, 01:28 AM
Fort, it's an unfortunate fact that men swim faster than women, and really fast women tend to kind of look like men. If you really want to be a beast in the water, femininity might suffer.


Wow......how machismo can one be?

pwolf66
May 30th, 2008, 10:52 AM
Paul, you officially crush me in every event you swim. :bow: I just looked up your times. So about this weightlifting thing. . . :weightlifter: Guess I had better start taking it more seriously. Is there room for a Ms. Hulk? Cause if I start sweating in the gym . . . there's no telling what I will turn into! :rofl:

Have a USS meet this weekend. I'm concerned as I'm dead tired. Like that's a surprise. Should prove interesting. The psych sheets are scary. I'm an average swimmer. :doh: I think it's good for me though. Should be interesting to see if I fall apart mentally (due to being tired). Or perhaps I'll show I'm a bit better than a creampuff. Maybe a jelly donut. Should be fun regardless and I know I'll get to see some fast swimming.

Crush you? Nah, I'm faster in the shorter stuff because I'm taller and stronger. But do not sell your self short. Crush you, bah. And an 'average swimmer?' puh-leeze. Triple AAA times in most of your events? And just a fraction of quad-A? Once again you are short selling yourself. Don't do it again, or I'll have to hurt you. :duel:


But as for strength training. Yes, anyone can benefit from a solid, well structured resistance training routine. Does this mean that you have to sweat like a dog for 2 hours a day, lifting small cars? Nope. But it does mean that you have to continually challenge your body to adapt.

In any training, one key fact must always be addressed and that is the human body's huge capacity for adapting to physiological stress. And any form of movement, be it walking, riding a bike, lifting, etc. is a form of physiological stress. So to keep the body from adapting and becoming static, we need to keep increasing and/or changing the stress.

I'm using stress here to represent positive stress, otherwise as eustress. Avoidance of negative stress, distress is a major goal.

There is a core belief that resistance training falls into three types. These are not all inclusive and everyone's body responds differently but these are pretty good guidelines.

1) Strength training - 4-6 reps of 3 sets using 80-85% of 1RM (one rep max) using longer rest periods between sets. Goal is to maximize overall gains in muscle power and density while minimizing overall growth.
2) Hypertrophy - 6-8 reps, 3-4 sets using 65-75% of 1RM - using slightly shorter rest periods, goal is to maximize production of muscle fibers in the shortest possible time. main focus is to increase total muscle fiber size (hypertrophty).
3) Endurance training - 12-15 reps per set, 2-3 sets per exercise using 50-60% or 1RM with very little rest between sets. Goal here is to maximize stored energy (glycogen) in muscle fibers and to speed the body's response in eliminating fatigue toxins.

Now, all three training types will have the following benefits:

1) Increase muscle fiber density - increased strength
2) Increased muscle fiber quantity - increased size
3) Increased long term efficiency - increased endurance
4) Increased short-term efficiency - increased power

But the difference between them is the difference in emphasis on the primary goal. Note: PRIMARY goal. Will you increase the quantity of muscle fibers while strength training? Yes. Will you see an increase in muscle density while bodybuilding? Yes. And so on. But you will have the BEST chance of maximizing your strength gains following at strength training routine that you would following an edurance training one. And that is the heart of the matter. Working smarter not harder.

Which brings up this key point. To be able to work smarter you HAVE to track your progress and that means that you HAVE TO keep a log of your activities. This gives you the following benefits:

1) You can track your progress which can help motivate.
2) You have a historical record of your progress so you can see what exercises worked and what didn't.
3) You can see when you start to plateau in your training. These plateaus generally indicate one of two things: overtraining (the eustress is becoming distress) or adaptation (your body has adapted to the eustress you have been applying and is becoming static)


More to follow

Paul

Big AL
May 30th, 2008, 11:23 AM
1) Strength training - 4-6 reps of 3 sets using 80-85% of 1RM (one rep max) using longer rest periods between sets. Goal is to maximize overall gains in muscle power and density while minimizing overall growth.
2) Hypertrophy - 6-8 reps, 3-4 sets using 65-75% of 1RM - using slightly shorter rest periods, goal is to maximize production of muscle fibers in the shortest possible time. main focus is to increase total muscle fiber size (hypertrophty).
3) Endurance training - 12-15 reps per set, 2-3 sets per exercise using 50-60% or 1RM with very little rest between sets. Goal here is to maximize stored energy (glycogen) in muscle fibers and to speed the body's response in eliminating fatigue toxins.


Paul,

This is my standard lifting pattern. I usually do about 10 different lifts per ~45 min session, 3x a week.... always the same circuit:

3 sets of 10 reps per set. 1st set 60-70%, short rest, 2nd set 70-80%, short rest, 3rd set 80-90%. Each session, choose one lift of my 10 to test max with a 4th and 5th set at 100-110% (even more rest and ok to be 4-6 reps at max). Based on results, reset next lifting session to new baseline.

I have really liked this pattern, because it gets me warmed up, requires greater strength under greater fatigue, and I test my max consistently.

Any comments?

AL

pwolf66
May 30th, 2008, 11:34 AM
Paul,

This is my standard lifting pattern. I usually do about 10 different lifts per ~45 min session, 3x a week.... always the same circuit:

3 sets of 10 reps per set. 1st set 60-70%, short rest, 2nd set 70-80%, short rest, 3rd set 80-90%. Each session, choose one lift of my 10 to test max with a 4th and 5th set at 100-110% (even more rest and ok to be 4-6 reps at max). Based on results, reset next lifting session to new baseline.

I have really liked this pattern, because it gets me warmed up, requires greater strength under greater fatique, and I test my max consistently.

Any comments?

AL

if it works for you, great but it just seems to me that you are muddling the mixture a bit by doing a one bourbon, one scotch and one beer kind of workout. My recommendation would be to change your routine for the next 4 weeks to a more strength based one, track your results and then compare the two. If you can do a 3rd set of 10 reps and it's your '80-90%' then your 100%, i.e 1RM is higher than you think. You also mentioned 110%? Are these forced reps? Negatives? Half reps? Not sure how you could do 110% of your 1RM otherwise.


Also, I rarely maxed out, maybe once a month if that, even when I was competing so I'm really hesitant to suggest that. For others, there are charts that can give you an estimated 1RM based upon the number of reps you can do. One can be found here:

http://www.criticalbench.com/weight-training-chart.htm

But when referring to 1RM, that is the absolutely maximum that you can lift while observing proper form. So for example, say your max bench press is 225 pounds. Then your target weight for your sets if you're following a strength based plan is 180-190 pounds. Everyone is slightly different so that is just a guideline. If you find that at 190 you can still do all three sets of 6 reps then add 5 pounds.

But hey, once again, that's just me and in all thing YMMV (your milage may vary). So if you feel that it works for you, go for it. At the heart of it, that is all that matters, creating a sustainable, enjoyable routine.

Paul

ehoch
May 30th, 2008, 11:42 AM
Hi Paul -

I like your list - have a question though - what will doing 8-12 reps at 60% but lifting at maximum speed do for you ?

Big AL
May 30th, 2008, 11:48 AM
Not sure how you could do 110% of your 1RM otherwise.

I never do 1RM... ever... I guess my max testing would be 5RM using those terms. Looking at the chart referenced, that means 87.5%, so I still have room for 10% without going over 100%. :wiggle:

My other percentages for sets are based on 10RM, so my numbers are really messed.... nice chart, though.

I'll consider the mixed drink theory.

Thanks. :roids:

pwolf66
May 30th, 2008, 12:01 PM
Hi Paul -

I like your list - have a question though - what will doing 8-12 reps at 60% but lifting at maximum speed do for you ?

Risk connective tissue injuries.

There is a school of thought that empasizes speed lifting as a way of maximizing power. But then I was never heavily involved in sports that required maximal full body power/speed moves such as football, shot put, discuss, etc.

Varying the pace of lift is another tool in the training arsenal but, imo, when you are practically throwing the weight around, then you are lifting too fast. But the training should match the sport. Here is a helpful site that can help to explain in better words than I can.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/weight.htm

Paul

Chris Stevenson
May 30th, 2008, 12:16 PM
There is a core belief that resistance training falls into three types. These are not all inclusive and everyone's body responds differently but these are pretty good guidelines.

1) Strength training - 4-6 reps of 3 sets using 80-85% of 1RM (one rep max) using longer rest periods between sets. Goal is to maximize overall gains in muscle power and density while minimizing overall growth.
2) Hypertrophy - 6-8 reps, 3-4 sets using 65-75% of 1RM - using slightly shorter rest periods, goal is to maximize production of muscle fibers in the shortest possible time. main focus is to increase total muscle fiber size (hypertrophty).
3) Endurance training - 12-15 reps per set, 2-3 sets per exercise using 50-60% or 1RM with very little rest between sets. Goal here is to maximize stored energy (glycogen) in muscle fibers and to speed the body's response in eliminating fatigue toxins.

Paul, first of all, thank you for the long and educational message. I pretty much "wing it" in the weight room. In some ways, I feel like the training effects of my weight-lifting sessions act to stress me in the pool. (The exception is my core-exercise routine.) So when I stop doing weights during taper, I feel like a million bucks in the water, powerful and tireless (a bit of an exaggeration but taper is also about mental attitude, right?)

One thing that made me laugh: when I first started lifting, back in high school (long long ago), our coach drilled the 8-12 rep range as the optimal range...and it is missing from your chart! But that was, as I said, long ago.

I do have one question about your table. I know you gave all kinds of caveats and that this is a simplification -- maybe an oversimplification. And you clearly know much more about this than I do.

But I do have a hard time completely buying the fact that going from #1 to #2 can have such a stark effect, going from mostly adding strength to mostly adding bulk. There just doesn't seem to be such a huge difference (2 reps) between the two types of exercises.

Chris

Paul Smith
May 30th, 2008, 12:43 PM
http://magazine.stack.com/TheIssue/Article/4906/Auburn_Swimmings_Kick_Power.aspx

Auburn Swimming's Kick Power

Looking to pump up your kick power? Look no further than the top—Auburn University. Since 1990, the Tigers have compiled a sick resume, including six men’s and four women’s NCAA crowns and a combined 15 SEC titles.

Bryan Karkoska, strength and conditioning coach for both squads, explains how a strong kick will leave opponents in your wake. “Kick power is your main propulsion through the water,” he says. “When performing the backstroke and freestyle, it helps you keep your hips up and enables you to stay on top of the water. For the butterfly, fly stroke and underwater butterfly, the kick really helps you off the walls.”

To transform your kick into a high-octane motor, Karkoska prescribes dry-land training, particularly the Med Ball Kick and Seated Med Ball Kick. The Tigers perform both twice a week throughout the year. Complete 2 sets of 10 reps for each exercise, resting no longer than a minute.

Med Ball Kick

Stand with med ball between ankles
Have partner stand three feet in front of you
In one continuous movement, jump up and kick med ball towards partner’s chest
Karkoska’s Keys
1. Initiate the movement by jumping, not kicking.
2. The jump and kick should be an explosive, continuous movement.
3. Use your arms for balance.
4. Place enough tension on the med ball with your feet so that it doesn’t fall out on your jump, but is still easy to kick to partner.

Seated Med Ball Kick

Sit on ground with knees bent
Hold med ball between ankles with feet off ground
Extend arms to ground directly under shoulders, for stability
Kick ball forward to partner, who’s standing three feet away
Karkoska’s Keys
1. Keep your hip joint flexed, and explosively kick the med ball forward.
2. Keep your back straight throughout the movement, and don’t rock or use momentum for the kick.
3. Keep your core tight and hips in a set position. From there, just kick out with your legs.

Paul Smith
May 30th, 2008, 12:48 PM
More from Auburn:

http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/speakers.php?sid=1032&vid=13335

pwolf66
May 30th, 2008, 01:21 PM
One thing that made me laugh: when I first started lifting, back in high school (long long ago), our coach drilled the 8-12 rep range as the optimal range...and it is missing from your chart! But that was, as I said, long ago.

I do have one question about your table. I know you gave all kinds of caveats and that this is a simplification -- maybe an oversimplification. And you clearly know much more about this than I do.

But I do have a hard time completely buying the fact that going from #1 to #2 can have such a stark effect, going from mostly adding strength to mostly adding bulk. There just doesn't seem to be such a huge difference (2 reps) between the two types of exercises.

Chris

True it is VERY simplified and you are right there is not much difference between the 2 but the difference is in HOW much weight you use and how much rest you give between sets.

But it might be better stated that #1 is 3-5 reps as opposed to 4-6 but I have found that with 3-5 reps too many people use a weight that is too heavy and end up _just_ getting that 5th rep with poor form and defeating the purpose. but also remember that if you can do 3 sets of 6 reps, then the weight is too light so in reality, it is closer to 4-5 reps.

Paul

Paul

The Fortress
May 30th, 2008, 01:22 PM
Fort, it's an unfortunate fact that men swim faster than women, and really fast women tend to kind of look like men. If you really want to be a beast in the water, femininity might suffer.

I told Mr. Fort I intended to lift heavier, and I saw a look of horror cross his face. :eek: Not that he has read any recent theories on weight lifting (although he religiously lifts himself), but he said lifting heavy would add bulk and strength. I was thinking about track. Most of the women sprinters are pretty darn muscular ... I really don't want to add bulk, as I feel like swimming itself adds bulk particularly in the back and shoulders.

Hulk, I can't keep a weight log. That would make it not a fun, sustainable activity. I barely keep track of my swimming and never add up yardage. Same with food. I'd feel like I was on the nazi diet plan if I kept track. I know I've obsessive, but I just can't obsess about everything.

Paul: The med ball suggestions are great. But I wonder how many people can really train with partners or do this activity effectively in a crowded gym setting?

pwolf66
May 30th, 2008, 01:26 PM
Hulk, I can't keep a weight log. That would make it not a fun, sustainable activity. I barely keep track of my swimming and never add up yardage. Same with food. I'd feel like I was on the nazi diet plan if I kept track. I know I've obsessive, but I just can't obsess about everything.

The log is just another training tool. It doesn't have to be anything onerous. Just bring a small spiral bound notebook with you and jot down your exercises. Unlike a swim log where you either have to plan ahead or remember after, you can write stuff down during rest cycles. :wiggle:

But if you can't, you can't. As I said, it's another tool in the arsenal but are you not going to get positive results if you don't keep a log? Nope. Is it going to be more challenging to maximize your results without one? Yes.

Sounds like whining to me. :wine:

Paul

The Fortress
May 30th, 2008, 01:32 PM
The log is just another training tool. It doesn't have to be anything onerous. Just bring a small spiral bound notebook with you and jot down your exercises. Unlike a swim log where you either have to plan ahead or remember after, you can write stuff down during rest cycles. :wiggle:

But if you can't, you can't. As I said, it's another tool in the arsenal but are you not going to get positive results if you don't keep a log? Nope. Is it going to be more challenging to maximize your results without one? Yes.

Sounds like whining to me. :wine:

Paul

No whining. Just a preference. I hate being disciplined in every little aspect of life. Sometimes I just do what I feel like even though it might be counter-productive for x goal (e.g., running, stay up late).

I can't whine anymore anyway. Tall Paul will give me a long distance drubbing. He's starting to feign sinus issues himself, so, at the first sign of bronchitis, he'll have an inhaler in tow. :bolt:

pwolf66
May 30th, 2008, 01:37 PM
I told Mr. Fort I intended to lift heavier, and I saw a look of horror cross his face. :eek: Not that he has read any recent theories on weight lifting (although he religiously lifts himself), but he said lifting heavy would add bulk and strength. I was thinking about track. Most of the women sprinters are pretty darn muscular ... I really don't want to add bulk, as I feel like swimming itself adds bulk particularly in the back and shoulders.


Geez, and what's wrong with a little 'bulk'? See anyone at Nats that was 'freakishly' large? I'm pretty sure you won't expand to the point where you'll have to go thru doorways sideways :frustrated:

If you exercise for the next 3-4 weeks and all of a sudden you find yourself no longer fitting into your clothing, then you should re-evaluate how you are training :-) And lay off the :roids:

The Fortress
May 30th, 2008, 01:40 PM
Geez, and what's wrong with a little 'bulk'? See anyone at Nats that was 'freakishly' large? I'm pretty sure you won't expand to the point where you'll have to go thru doorways sideways :frustrated:

If you exercise for the next 3-4 weeks and all of a sudden you find yourself no longer fitting into your clothing, then you should re-evaluate how you are training :-) And lay off the :roids:

I'm waiting for just one chick to hop on this male-dominated thread and declare that bulk is good. It won't be me. Plus, I already went through a whole wardrobe change after I started swimming! Had to get completely new shoulder holders, i.e., tops. I refuse to do it again. I'd rather go back to high rep, low weight.

Chris Stevenson
May 30th, 2008, 01:43 PM
More from Auburn:

http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/speakers.php?sid=1032&vid=13335

Very interesting, thanks for the links Paul. I have experience with some exercises similar to the ones shown.

The med ball exercises look great...as long as you have a workout partner (which I don't). I do leg lifts (starting position: body vertical) with straight legs and using my feet to hold added weight. Not as explosive as the med ball exercises though but good for SDK. I'll use 5-10 lbs and 12-15 reps per set, with 45 secs between sets.

As a complementary exercise I do the back exercises that are like reverse situps...I forget the name of the device, you start bent over facing downwards and then straighten. Some people around here (macho college students) will add a 45 lbs weight and hold it to their chest to develop more back strength. Instead, I'll use a lighter weight (10 lbs) and hold it out in a streamline position with both arms as I rise. Also very good to improve SDKs and butterfly.

I do the Pilates exercise that Cielo demonstrates, but without the stick or cup of water. However, instead of my knees I do it on my feet, which is significantly harder, while keep the body straight in a plank. It is a great exercise to develop core & leg strength and balance; highly recommended. (Unfortunately, I have to modify it now because of a nagging wrist injury -- I hate getting old -- so I do it off my elbows.)

The exercise with the wheel is awesome, I've done it in the past and now I am inspired and may return to it. Very challenging to do the standing version he demonstrates. Many sports stores sell a version of the wheel that comes apart so you can take it with you on trips.

pwolf66
May 30th, 2008, 01:54 PM
I'm waiting for just one chick to hop on this male-dominated thread and declare that bulk is good. It won't be me. Plus, I already went through a whole wardrobe change after I started swimming! Had to get completely new shoulder holders, i.e., tops. I refuse to do it again. I'd rather go back to high rep, low weight.

Except the common view of 'bulk' is this:

http://image57.webshots.com/457/2/0/24/2415200240028285470lIlRLU_ph.jpg


And that is so far from realistic as to be nearly absurd.

Paul

ourswimmer
May 30th, 2008, 01:56 PM
I'm waiting for just one chick to hop on this male-dominated thread and declare that bulk is good. It won't be me.

Well, I don't usually think of myself as either a "chick" or a "lady," but I do like the muscly-arm look on myself and on other women. I know I moaned elsewhere about jackets not fitting my arms and mid-back, but I'm not about to lay off upper-body workouts just for that. I love having visible biceps, triceps, lats, and deltoids; and I love that my waist is small in comparison to my shoulders and hips. If I lost some subcutaneous fat I would like my look even more because I would have more definition, although then I would probably get cold too easily.

Anyway, I have only ever seen a few women swimmers that I thought looked unattractively "bulky," and all but one of them I can think of turned out, unsurprisingly, to be on :roids:.

CreamPuff
May 30th, 2008, 02:01 PM
I told Mr. Fort I intended to lift heavier, and I saw a look of horror cross his face. :eek:

Hulk, I can't keep a weight log. That would make it not a fun, sustainable activity. I barely keep track of my swimming and never add up yardage. Same with food. I'd feel like I was on the nazi diet plan if I kept track. I know I've obsessive, but I just can't obsess about everything.


Woa. Mr. Fort and Mr. Man must be conversing. When I took my husband to a masters meet w/ me in Florida and he saw all the people in fastskins (and you could not tell who was a man and who was a woman) he blurted out without thinking, "I don't want you getting too butch." Bad comment in sooo many ways, I know. I went nuts. He apologized (he's usually very good and does not say things like that). It was his knee jerk reaction to seeing everyone on deck.

I keep too many logs of everything. It IS OCD. Don't start Fort. I think I'll stick w/ my fun first. And second. And third. Good exercise fourth. Rankings - 100th.

Hulk, good posts. Thanks. I'd like to PM you later. In the weight room, I do your #3 Endurance training only. 3 Sets of 12 on many machines/ exercises.

Sorry on my "average" comment. Was going purely on the numbers listed on the psych sheets.
200 Fly - seeded 26 of 51
400 FR - 40 of 78
800 FR - 22 of 40
Ho hum. Really though, this is good for me. I am annoyed and angry at being in the middle. I hope to use that in the pool.

Interestingly 50 FR - 15th of 135 and it's not near my best event.
I rank better among USS in shorter distances and I'm very slow in 200s and above. I think that's b/c the Masters "less is more" approach is fine in 100s and under. Not so good on 200s and bad for distance.

mattson
May 30th, 2008, 02:50 PM
A while ago, there was a (PBS?) history show on the Spartans. The narrator (attractive English lady history prof) talked about how the women competed in the same sports and training as the men. Spartan women (to a large extent) were considered more attractive than the other (softer, sedentary) Greek women. She also pointed out that "Helen of Troy" was originally "Helen of Sparta".

Chris Stevenson
May 30th, 2008, 03:03 PM
Interestingly 50 FR - 15th of 135 and it's not near my best event.
I rank better among USS in shorter distances and I'm very slow in 200s and above. I think that's b/c the Masters "less is more" approach is fine in 100s and under. Not so good on 200s and bad for distance.

I have the exact same experience. In USS meets I am significantly better in 100s compared to 200s and in masters it is probably the opposite.

I don't think it is just training volume, I think age plays a role, sorry to say.

There is a 1:45 backstroker on the affiliated USS team where I swim masters. We both recently did a 10 x 100 on 2:00 backstroke test set. I averaged less than 1 second slower than him...despite the fact that he trounces me in meets at any distance. (And he was spent after the set, I don't think he was holding back.)

But in meets he can step it up in a way I no longer am able to do.

Another anecdote...today I swam with the U of Richmond college women's team. The coach is very into HR training. There was a set of 200s where he wanted the swimmers to have a minimum HR of 176, and it was clear from his comments he was expecting something like 80% effort on the set (the main set was yet to come).

I had to laugh: if I went ALL OUT I would reach 176, but my max HR is somewhere in the low 180s. But I remember hitting 200 quite readily in HS...that sort of physiological difference just HAS to be important in a meet, and no amount of training seems to change my max HR.

CreamPuff
May 30th, 2008, 03:10 PM
Drats that age thing! I was wondering where it fit into the equation. Really makes sense what you said Chris. I too seem to be able to hang well in practices with the kids. But they can really turn it on in the meets.

But. . . I think for now, I will just pretend to ignore it just like I try and ignore gender when I swim. Ignorance is bliss. :woot:

The Fortress
May 30th, 2008, 04:03 PM
Well, I don't usually think of myself as either a "chick" or a "lady," but I do like the muscly-arm look on myself and on other women. I know I moaned elsewhere about jackets not fitting my arms and mid-back, but I'm not about to lay off upper-body workouts just for that. I love having visible biceps, triceps, lats, and deltoids; and I love that my waist is small in comparison to my shoulders and hips. If I lost some subcutaneous fat I would like my look even more because I would have more definition, although then I would probably get cold too easily.

Anyway, I have only ever seen a few women swimmers that I thought looked unattractively "bulky," and all but one of them I can think of turned out, unsurprisingly, to be on :roids:.

I don't have any problem with definition or looking athletic. I'm pretty defined. But definition is somewhat different than "bulk." Bulk just sounds horrible. I'd prefer more definition and no bulk or hulk.

Chris:

I do reverse sit ups all the time with weights. You can do the same exercise on each side too, to work the obliques. It's harder if you lift one foot off the ground while doing this. I also like doing decline reverse crunches for the lower abs. (Lie flat on a decline bench with your arms holding on behind you for support, and hips and knees bent 90 degrees with calves parallel to the bench. Contract your abs and curl your hips up off the bench. Lower your hips until your calves are again parallel to the bench.) I use the bosu a lot too -- do hammers on it, crunches, superman streamlines, lunges with one foot on the bosu holding a 10 pound weight in each hand, etc. If you don't have a med ball partner, you can also have fun by placing your feet on the sides of the bosu and jumping up and onto the bosu. Can't do heavy weights on the bosu though. Also, crunches on a bench are harder than on the floor because they require more balance, especially if you're sideways on the bench, i.e., you're not using the length of the bench but are at a perpendicular angle with only your butt on the bench. I think core work is much more fun than weights. But that's me.

The Fortress
May 30th, 2008, 05:44 PM
Woa. Mr. Fort and Mr. Man must be conversing.

They aren't the only ones. My daughter (13) told me today that a group of guys routinely refer to her as "man" at school. (She's buff like me, and about my size or thinner.) Apparently, middle school guys (despite Title IX) still aren't used to strong athletic women ... Argh.

mattson
May 31st, 2008, 10:45 AM
My daughter (13) told me today that a group of guys routinely refer to her as "man" at school.

I trust that you've seen the movie "Aliens"?

Hudson: "Hey Vasquez, have you ever been mistaken for a man?"
Vasquez: "No. Have you?"

knelson
May 31st, 2008, 01:02 PM
I have the exact same experience. In USS meets I am significantly better in 100s compared to 200s and in masters it is probably the opposite.

Same here. I consider myself a pretty terrible sprinter, but if I look at the USA Swimming Power Points calculator my 50 is usually almost as good as my distance events.

It may have something to do with kids training ten times per week and I train five at best (with less time per session than them, too).

Jazz Hands
May 31st, 2008, 03:39 PM
I tried overhead squats for the first time today. What an amazing exercise. It was challenging to use just the bar.

swimshark
June 1st, 2008, 06:35 AM
There is a 1:45 backstroker on the affiliated USS team where I swim masters. We both recently did a 10 x 100 on 2:00 backstroke test set. I averaged less than 1 second slower than him...despite the fact that he trounces me in meets at any distance. (And he was spent after the set, I don't think he was holding back.)

But in meets he can step it up in a way I no longer am able to do.
.

That's me, too. I can easily beat the kids in practice (11-18 year olds) but some can blow me out of the water in meets. One kid and I raced a 500 in practice. I came in way ahead of him but his best time in a meet is 20 sec faster than mine. I have good endurance but not great speed where as he has speed and endurance due to his youth.

My tip on how to get stronger? Get a buddy like Hulk. He came to our masters practice and then showed me what to do in the weight room to improve. I'm a bit sore today but not nearly as bad as I thought I would be. Thanks Hulk! Hope Hulk got over machine stealing nuts.:rofl:

CreamPuff
June 1st, 2008, 12:39 PM
They aren't the only ones. My daughter (13) told me today that a group of guys routinely refer to her as "man" at school. (She's buff like me, and about my size or thinner.) Apparently, middle school guys (despite Title IX) still aren't used to strong athletic women ... Argh.

Don't worry. Tell her that I was called a "man" and a "hoss" recently - and by the gals! When I passed one of the National gals on a set in practice, she said she thought I was a "man." Was also called, "You are such as hoss!" by one of the young gals when she asked what I did on my 100 fly. Is it possible to be :cane: and :roids: at the same time?! :lmao: What a combo!

BTW (back to the strong topic), my coach told me at the end of the meet that I had this weekend that I DO NOT need to do more or heavier weights. He said I was strong enough but that I need to learn how to swim LC. He went over race strategies and some technique issues for different events.

CreamPuff
June 1st, 2008, 12:42 PM
A while ago, there was a (PBS?) history show on the Spartans. The narrator (attractive English lady history prof) talked about how the women competed in the same sports and training as the men. Spartan women (to a large extent) were considered more attractive than the other (softer, sedentary) Greek women. She also pointed out that "Helen of Troy" was originally "Helen of Sparta".

Which way to Sparta? :laugh2:

The actress that played Helen in the most recent version of the movie "Troy" with Brad Pitt was the size of a toothpick.

The Fortress
June 1st, 2008, 01:18 PM
Don't worry. Tell her that I was called a "man" and a "hoss" recently - and by the gals! When I passed one of the National gals on a set in practice, she said she thought I was a "man." Was also called, "You are such as hoss!" by one of the young gals when she asked what I did on my 100 fly. Is it possible to be :cane: and :roids: at the same time?! :lmao: What a combo!

BTW (back to the strong topic), my coach told me at the end of the meet that I had this weekend that I DO NOT need to do more or heavier weights. He said I was strong enough but that I need to learn how to swim LC. He went over race strategies and some technique issues for different events.

Well, you and I can take abuse. We're grown ups and a good ribbing is virtually mandatory. But middle school girls are very sensitive and she's only a size 1-2 for god's sake! I was in the grocery store the other day and browsed through one of the celebrity rags. They had a poll on which body type men liked best. Sporty and muscular were the lowest, with muscular at 2%. I told her to find a smart jock to date when she's older, although I liked Mattson's retort.

What was your coach's rationale on the strength training? Is it because you're focusing on longer distances? LC is hard!

CreamPuff
June 1st, 2008, 01:57 PM
Well, you and I can take abuse. We're grown ups and a good ribbing is almost mandatory. But middle school girls are very sensitive. I was in the grocery store the other day and browsed through one of the celebrity rags. They had a poll on which body type men liked best. Sporty and muscular were the lowest, with muscular at 2%. I told her to find a smart jock to date when she's older, although I liked Mattson's retort.

What was your coach's rationale on the strength training? Is it because you're focusing on longer distances? LC is hard!

You are so right on the sensitivity of young girls - middle and high school as well. Sad news on that poll! You set an excellent example for your daughter, so I think that's the best thing that you can do!

I believe his comment was based on how I split/ swam all my races this past weekend. We reviewed each race in detail. He knows I swim all the distances.
Basically, my splits showed I have plenty of power. Heck, I went out in a 31 in my 100 fly. My swims show that I'm not as familiar w/ LC as I am with short course. Makes sense as I swim SC for about 9 months out of every year! I swam best times in almost every event - 200 fly by 7 seconds - (tired and in a drag suit), so I'm gonna stick with whatever he tells me.

Anyhoo, I'm bulky enough and I figure that since I ignored my coaches' advice as a kid, I may as well follow it now for a change of pace.

ourswimmer
June 1st, 2008, 06:34 PM
I was in the grocery store the other day and browsed through one of the celebrity rags. They had a poll on which body type men liked best. Sporty and muscular were the lowest, with muscular at 2%.

Add in "brainy" and the % probably goes down by half. But that just goes to show that in dating as in all else, one should seek quality over quantity. I recall not understanding that principle at 13, when my quantity of interested suitors was zero; but it did prove true in the long term.

Jazz Hands
June 1st, 2008, 08:25 PM
Some of the fun exercises I did this weekend:

Overhead squats
See my previous post. Falling over can be embarrassing.

Deadlifts
Duh.

Lat pullover machine
I do these one arm at a time, alternating.

Lat pulldowns
I also like to do these one-armed, with the V attachment.

Dips
A great exercise for swimmers, with a dip belt or just bodyweight.

Face pulls
Good for shoulder health, folks say.

Alternating dumbbell curls
I use more weight than Hulk.

Paul Smith
June 1st, 2008, 10:23 PM
Alternating dumbbell curls
I use more weight than Hulk.

I use less weight than my wife.

And don't even get me started on my squats 7 dead lift...I'm about 7th grade girl(s) on those right now!

Jazz....are you going to Portland? I was very impressed with your 50 in Austin...but really want to see you swim the "race of truth'...the 100 LCM free! man up!

(S)he..glad to hear you found a coach you trust and want to listen to.....good luck....also would love to see you swim at USMS nationals some time!

Ourswimmer...its time on this forum to stop using the word "bulk? when referring to swimmers and weight training....from hence forth it should be referred to as 'ripped" and/or powerful..and there is nothing better on this planet than a "brainy, ripped 7 powerful" female swimmer!

That Guy
June 1st, 2008, 10:46 PM
Jazz....are you going to Portland? I was very impressed with your 50 in Austin...but really want to see you swim the "race of truth'...the 100 LCM free! man up!

Ourswimmer...its time on this forum to stop using the word "bulk? when referring to swimmers and weight training....from hence forth it should be referred to as 'ripped" and/or powerful..and there is nothing better on this planet than a "brainy, ripped 7 powerful" female swimmer!

Oooohhhhh, sounds like a 100 free gridge is brewing! I'll be at Portland; I entered 100/200 fly, 200/400 IM, 400 free, and 200 back. 6th event is the 200 IM. Anybody wanna gridge? I might walk up to you before your heat and whisper "secret forum gridge" just to mess with you... :rolleyes: <makes note to do that anyway>

Regarding female ripped bulkage, my understanding is that the correct code word is "toned." At the gym I swim at, that's the word they use when they advertise a strength training class. Toned = good, ripped = bad, actual difference = nothing.

funkyfish
June 1st, 2008, 10:59 PM
I tried overhead squats for the first time today. What an amazing exercise. It was challenging to use just the bar.

Aren't they cool? Stick with it and you'll find yourself adding more and more weight. I've read where you've "arrived" when you can do 3 sets of 10 with your bodyweight. So far I haven't arrived, but I can do my bodyweight for a couple. I started out just doing the bar, having the muscle kids look at me like I was a doofus, but who cares. It's really helped me with my lower back issues.

After you get a handle on the overhead squats, you can graduate to "pistols"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLBAbqEZIeU

I'm still at the intermediate stage :bouncing:

Jazz Hands
June 1st, 2008, 11:17 PM
Jazz....are you going to Portland? I was very impressed with your 50 in Austin...but really want to see you swim the "race of truth'...the 100 LCM free! man up!

At the moment I'm planning to go, but I haven't registered yet. Probably the 50 fly and the 50 free. I didn't get the memo about 100 LCM being the race of truth; I'm terrible at it even when I'm on high yardage.

funkyfish, bodyweight overhead squats for any number of reps sounds hardcore. I can't even press that much weight into the starting position.

pwolf66
June 2nd, 2008, 06:10 AM
Alternating dumbbell curls
I use more weight than Hulk.

For now, young Padawan, for now.

Chris Stevenson
June 2nd, 2008, 08:07 AM
I didn't get the memo about 100 LCM being the race of truth

That's because Mr. Smith is mistaken: it is the 200 LCM fly...

Conveniently I won't be swimming it at nationals because it is right before the 100 back. Yet another example of the fly/back discrimination conspiracy...the 200 back is also right before the 100 fly, but I'm sucking it up for that double.

(Sorry for the thread drift...I guess you have to be strong to do LCM fly? Or maybe brain damaged...)

pwolf66
June 2nd, 2008, 08:13 AM
(Sorry for the thread drift...I guess you have to be strong to do LCM fly? Or maybe brain damaged...)

As someone who USED to do the 2Fly in all courses, I can only agree with the last sentiment. Tho, I am considering the 1Fly if I a) attend and b) fly out Thursday instead of Friday.

The Fortress
June 2nd, 2008, 08:58 AM
That's because Mr. Smith is mistaken: it is the 200 LCM fly...

Not for masters! Hardly anyone does it.

There's a fly/back conspiracy at LC zones too, Chris. I will not be sucking it up and doubling.

What's an overhead squat? What's a face pull? I do lat pulldowns, but I'm leery of the effect of pullovers on the shoulders ...

SwimStud
June 2nd, 2008, 09:03 AM
Lat pulldowns
I also like to do these one-armed, with the V attachment.




Jazz, is that the close grip triangle bar? They're good to do seated rows too and pull to the navel...that hits the lower portion of the lats harder.
That grip is fantastic to just get a good stretch on too.

Sometimes doing lat pull downs I'll use lighter weight than I would for straight pull downs and mimic an over the barrel pull motion.

Breaststrokers should do terminal leg extensions (only go half way down before back up) too. Works the lower portion of the quad to keep knee strong...this is from my physio...not a swim coach.

Jazz Hands
June 2nd, 2008, 11:03 AM
Jazz, is that the close grip triangle bar? They're good to do seated rows too and pull to the navel...that hits the lower portion of the lats harder.
That grip is fantastic to just get a good stretch on too.

Yeah, I think we're talking about the same thing. I use it for one-armed pulldowns because I have a long reach and it doesn't hang as low as the regular D-shaped handles at my gym.

Fort, search for the lifts on YouTube.

That Guy
June 2nd, 2008, 12:43 PM
As someone who USED to do the 2Fly in all courses, I can only agree with the last sentiment. Tho, I am considering the 1Fly if I a) attend and b) fly out Thursday instead of Friday.

Waits. You say I are drain bamaged? That not are sound gud! i tink you make fun me! HEY LOOK BANANA WHEEEEEE:banana:

jaegermeister
June 4th, 2008, 09:37 PM
Did some deadlifts today after getting my technique checked. This is a good exercise. Except, my legs are comparatively strong, and the limiting factor was hanging on to the bar. Did these with 70 lbs plus bar, 4 sets of 20 reps each. What gives? Are my forearms just sickly and in need of trashing?

Another question: what would be the rationale for doing a "Romanian deadlift" in addition to a standard D-L?

Also got in a couple of good sets of squats on a Smith machine. I was surprised that it took me a while to get used to being in front of the bar and leaning back. When you get going and pretend you're sitting on a stool, it all works out, though.

orca1946
June 4th, 2008, 09:43 PM
All moves to build muscle will work if ytou do lots of them & do it all the time.

funkyfish
June 4th, 2008, 10:51 PM
Did some deadlifts today after getting my technique checked. This is a good exercise. Except, my legs are comparatively strong, and the limiting factor was hanging on to the bar. Did these with 70 lbs plus bar, 4 sets of 20 reps each. What gives? Are my forearms just sickly and in need of trashing?

Another question: what would be the rationale for doing a "Romanian deadlift" in addition to a standard D-L?

When you grip the bar, use an overhand/underhand grip. This helps to keep the bar from "rolling" out of your grip. Also, the more you do it, the stronger your grip will become. An easy way out would be to use lifting straps.

The Romanian deadlift is supposed to put more emphasis on your hamstrings, whereas traditional and sumo-style deadlift will pull your hips into it.

Allen Stark
June 4th, 2008, 11:15 PM
I have a question for you lifters.I usually lift and then swim.Yesterday I needed to do it in reverse.Do to time constraints I only swam 1600M,but it was good quality with 100s BR at 200 race pace.After swimming I was REALLY tired as I dried off and put on my gym clothes.As I walked into the weight room I thought"I'll start with my regular weight,but decrease quickly if it hurts.Instead the weights felt light.Lifting was much easier than usual.Any theories?

Allen Stark
June 5th, 2008, 12:09 AM
I absolutely agree with Paul that the 100M LCM is the premier race,but he misspelled "breaststroke.":woot:

The Fortress
June 5th, 2008, 08:32 AM
I have a question for you lifters.I usually lift and then swim.Yesterday I needed to do it in reverse.Do to time constraints I only swam 1600M,but it was good quality with 100s BR at 200 race pace.After swimming I was REALLY tired as I dried off and put on my gym clothes.As I walked into the weight room I thought"I'll start with my regular weight,but decrease quickly if it hurts.Instead the weights felt light.Lifting was much easier than usual.Any theories?

Seems like a better way to do it to me. You get some quality swimming in first. I cannot swim anything but a recovery/drill workout after I "lift heavy." In fact, this lifting heavy stuff is effecting my ability to swim fast. 2 days later, I'm still sore. Swimming was torture yesterday. How long does it take for your body to adjust to this "liting heavy" thing?

Allen, I think you misspelled "backstroke."

pwolf66
June 5th, 2008, 08:40 AM
Fort,

Give it 2 weeks. After that if you find yourself still extremely sore, then lower the weights that you use by about 5-10% and see how your body reacts to that.

mctrusty
June 5th, 2008, 12:11 PM
I have a question for you lifters.I usually lift and then swim.Yesterday I needed to do it in reverse.Do to time constraints I only swam 1600M,but it was good quality with 100s BR at 200 race pace.After swimming I was REALLY tired as I dried off and put on my gym clothes.As I walked into the weight room I thought"I'll start with my regular weight,but decrease quickly if it hurts.Instead the weights felt light.Lifting was much easier than usual.Any theories?

Allen, I had a similar experience last weekend. I went for a 15 mile bike ride before lifting and when I went into the weight room, the weights felt much lighter than usual.

I attributed it to high endorphins. My bike ride involved a lot of big hills and I was definitely feeling the endogenous opioid euphoria before I started lifting.

pwolf66
June 5th, 2008, 12:50 PM
Allen, I had a similar experience last weekend. I went for a 15 mile bike ride before lifting and when I went into the weight room, the weights felt much lighter than usual.

I attributed it to high endorphins. My bike ride involved a lot of big hills and I was definitely feeling the endogenous opioid euphoria before I started lifting.

If that's the case then I think a better warmup is needed and you need to add more weight as it sounds like you are not stressing (i.e eustress) your muscles enough with the weight that you are currently using.

mctrusty
June 5th, 2008, 01:19 PM
If that's the case then I think a better warmup is needed and you need to add more weight as it sounds like you are not stressing (i.e eustress) your muscles enough with the weight that you are currently using.

Do you recommend some kind of cardio work (like, say, 10-15 minutes on the treadmill/bike/stepper) before lifting as a warmup? I normally stretch for 3-5 minutes and then start lifting.

pwolf66
June 5th, 2008, 01:31 PM
Do you recommend some kind of cardio work (like, say, 10-15 minutes on the treadmill/bike/stepper) before lifting as a warmup? I normally stretch for 3-5 minutes and then start lifting.

I would suggest that you add about 5min at a moderate level to warm up. As to stretching, well there are so many interpretations to the benefits of stretching before vs after vs never that I don't know when the best time/place for it is.

jaegermeister
June 6th, 2008, 12:18 AM
Stretching: don't waste your time stretching cold muscles. Stretch after you've worked out. This is different than what I did for about 40 years, but it definitely makes sense and works for me now.

jaegermeister
June 6th, 2008, 03:20 AM
Some words of wisdom from a local coach and lifter regarding how strength training can impact how we feel in the water:

"It isn't unusual to swim like 'pooh' during the season while strength training, then have BIG drops in time at the end of the year. That's the way I like it - and the way most programs/coaches set up their training. It doesn't always happen that way, but usually it does."

Big AL
June 6th, 2008, 01:03 PM
Stretching: don't waste your time stretching cold muscles. Stretch after you've worked out. This is different than what I did for about 40 years, but it definitely makes sense and works for me now.

I tend to agree with this.... just begin the workout easy before applying a lot of stress.

I have also found that the best way to screw up a race during competition is to stretch beforehand. Pool warm-ups are the only way to go.

jaegermeister
June 7th, 2008, 02:02 PM
I've had first hand experience how its not the day after one lifts hard, but the day after the day after when the muscles will feel like they've been trashed.

funkyfish
June 7th, 2008, 11:35 PM
I've had first hand experience how its not the day after one lifts hard, but the day after the day after when the muscles will feel like they've been trashed.

I think I read where most folks experience delayed onset muscle soreness by the 48hr mark. It's typically been the case with me. It also seems to last longest with my legs and lower back.:violin:

The Fortress
June 9th, 2008, 06:32 PM
You guys all lie. You definitely get more buff lifting heavy. I had two trainers at my gym comment on it today. Joy.

pwolf66
June 9th, 2008, 06:56 PM
You guys all lie. You definitely get more buff lifting heavy. I had two trainers at my gym comment on it today. Joy.

Well, I won't say you were flabby before but now you are building more lean muscle so that is starting to show thru.

funkyfish
June 9th, 2008, 10:24 PM
You guys all lie. You definitely get more buff lifting heavy. I had two trainers at my gym comment on it today. Joy.

Could it be that you suffer from myostatin-related muscle hypertrophy, like this poor fellow?

http://images.shoutwire.com/pic_full/Whippets%20Mysostatin%20Hypertrophy8d817e3f-86d9-41e5-b15e-bea7c069ebb3.jpg

:D

The Fortress
June 9th, 2008, 10:45 PM
Well, I won't say you were flabby before but

Watch it, buster. Don't use that word with me. I just don't want to look like a body builder or like I have muscle hypertrophy. Ew, funkyfish. I'd like to sprint faster, but I'm only willing to go so far. And lifting heavy all the time would just be drudgery for me. I'm already looking foward to total cessation in the fall.

ande
June 10th, 2008, 03:17 PM
maybe those trainers have an agenda
either to get you to hire them to train you or your friends or
they were flirting with you.
you weren't too muscular at nats
you and I are no where near the point of diminishing returns of being too muscular

You guys all lie. You definitely get more buff lifting heavy. I had two trainers at my gym comment on it today. Joy.

pwolf66
June 10th, 2008, 06:16 PM
you and I are no where near the point of diminishing returns of being too muscular

I sure hope that I'm in the same category.

Paul Smith
June 10th, 2008, 09:35 PM
Throw the scale away Fort.

Lifting heavier and trying to develop more explosive power (combined with a good swim program and diet) will create more definition and you will most likely add some weight as muscle is denser than fat.

Not sure why there is so much skepticism here...do you think Natalie Coughlin is "big"? How about lacey Nymeyer? Gary Hall Jr.? look at any elite athlete swimming the same events you do and tell me they are "big"? And trust me they are almost all lifting this way....

The Fortress
June 10th, 2008, 09:54 PM
I never weigh myself. Just use the mirror.

I'm not really "skeptical." I'm going to plug away for a couple months and see how it goes. Those fegirls are awfully young for comparison though and perhaps have different body types? ... I thought Natalie was all about the pilates ... I also decidedly remember your lovely wife saying she was a "big girl" at the beer garden. Not true, of course, but it shows the fegirl mindset.

Not lifting on vacation though. Except some curls. :drink:

CreamPuff
June 11th, 2008, 09:57 AM
Throw away the scale Fort.
Lifting heavier and trying to develop more explosive power (combined with a good swim program and diet) will create more definition and you will most likely add some weight as muscle is denser than fat.


I agree with that. I started to look like tank woman. No thanks.
I love the men telling the women to throw away the scale and lift more.




Not sure why there is so much skepticism here...do you think Natalie Coughlin is "big"? How about lacey Nymeyer? Gary Hall Jr.? look at any elite athlete swimming the same events you do and tell me they are "big"? And trust me they are almost all lifting this way....

Natalie and Lacey are both tiny (compared to me) and more importantly, in their 20s. And they are very elite swimmers. Can't really compare myself to them. I think it would be much more relevant to compare SVDL to us masters women. It's a different ballgame when you reach 30s and 40s and beyond starting with a slower metabolism. Gary Hall, last I checked, is a guy.

Paul Smith
June 11th, 2008, 11:47 AM
I agree with that. I started to look like tank woman. No thanks.
I love the men telling the women to throw away the scale and lift more.

Natalie and Lacey are both tiny (compared to me) and more importantly, in their 20s. And they are very elite swimmers. Can't really compare myself to them. I think it would be much more relevant to compare SVDL to us masters women. It's a different ballgame when you reach 30s and 40s and beyond starting with a slower metabolism. Gary Hall, last I checked, is a guy.

(S)he you've made it very clear that your perfectly comfortable and set in what your doing and are happy with the results....oh wait you tell us you don't care about results...but wait you post your times and rankings...oh wait those don't matter because they are USMS times rankings and you train with kids...but oh wait you want to compare yourself to SVDL...but wait she trains only 3x a week and completely the opposite of how you do...and God forbid a guy offering training advice mention a scale around you...but we keep seeing those glamour shot avatars....:mooning:

Here's the deal, regardless of age, sex, whatever if your training and competing in my opinion you look at and emulate whats successful for the elite athletes in that sport. And the bottom line is the kind of training that sprint oriented swimmers are doing and showing the most results...without looking like body builders by any stretch of the imagination...involves power/strength training.

Jazz Hands
June 11th, 2008, 12:21 PM
I agree with that. I started to look like tank woman. No thanks.

This is ridiculous. You know what's making you go from one side of the pool to the other over and over again every day? Your muscles. No matter how you train, or what events you want to do, your muscles are actually making the performances happen. Without muscle, there is no movement at all. With more muscle, there is more strength, more power, and more speed. Men swim faster than women because of muscle. Cheaters take steroids because of muscle. And you're afraid of it?

CreamPuff
June 11th, 2008, 12:45 PM
(S)he you've made it very clear that your perfectly comfortable and set in what your doing and are happy with the results

I've made significant changes to how I train and work out, hence my dropping 15 seconds in a 400 free in 10 months.



oh wait you tell us you don't care about results

Incorrect. I've said that having fun and being fit (for me at least) come way before end results, meaning times.


but wait you post your times and rankings

When asked.


oh wait those don't matter because they are USMS times rankings and you train with kids

I do train with the kids and I'm loving every minute. Sorry?! :thhbbb:


but oh wait you want to compare yourself to SVDL...

No. You wanted to compare masters women swimmers to Lacey and Natalie. SVDL seems like a more relevant comparison time wise. Do I want to train as she does? No? However, her times, although still out of my league, are still closer than if I compare myself to Natalie. And her workouts, if I chose to do them, would be more possible than doing what Natalie and Lacey do.


and God forbid a guy offering training advice mention a scale around you

If it's correct training advice, mention the scale. I guarantee you there are plenty of women out there who don't like the scale mentioned.


but we keep seeing those glamour shot avatars....:mooning:

Where's yours? And more to come on my end. :laugh2:



Here's the deal, regardless of age, sex, whatever if your training and competing in my opinion you look at and emulate whats successful for the elite athletes in that sport. And the bottom line is the kind of training that sprint oriented swimmers are doing and showing the most results...without looking like body builders by any stretch of the imagination...involves power/strength training.

Whatever. You compare us to Lacey and Natalie. But wait, we aren't to put in their kind of yardage. That would be crazy. But wait. We are to train in the weight room like they are. And we'll be as lean as they are and not overly bulky. At 30 and 40 and 50, etc.

Uh uh.

CreamPuff
June 11th, 2008, 12:53 PM
This is ridiculous. You know what's making you go from one side of the pool to the other over and over again every day? Your muscles. No matter how you train, or what events you want to do, your muscles are actually making the performances happen. Without muscle, there is no movement at all. With more muscle, there is more strength, more power, and more speed. Men swim faster than women because of muscle. Cheaters take steroids because of muscle. And you're afraid of it?

Yes. Last I checked, I am afraid of steroids. And I beat plenty of men with my limited muscle.

But you're right. I'm on a quest to get rid of all my muscle! :lolup:
My next quest. Just swim the 50 free. Only.

That Guy
June 11th, 2008, 01:49 PM
This is ridiculous. You know what's making you go from one side of the pool to the other over and over again every day? Your muscles. No matter how you train, or what events you want to do, your muscles are actually making the performances happen. Without muscle, there is no movement at all. With more muscle, there is more strength, more power, and more speed. Men swim faster than women because of muscle. Cheaters take steroids because of muscle. And you're afraid of it?

Guys, I told you before, the code word is TONED. Not muscle, not bulk, TONED.

The Fortress
June 11th, 2008, 02:58 PM
Guys, I told you before, the code word is TONED. Not muscle, not bulk, TONED.

Nice try. Toned = Jennifer Anniston. We're talking strength training here.

I'm just back from my doing my 360 pound leg presses. Lifting heavy at least has the advantage of being quicker and leaving more time for core work. Perhaps the cardio burns off some of the bulk you might get anyway?

I don't know about SVDL as the role model either, frankly. Her workouts don't represent what most elite masters do; she's just extraordinarily talented. Most are working out way more than 3x a week to achieve their results. I think Chris Stevenson is more typical. Plus, I would be unhappy only working out 3x a week. I can do "less is more" in the pool, but 4 days of sitting around doing nothing? No thanks. Don't want to sacrifice fitness and I like cross training.

Jazz Hands
June 11th, 2008, 03:04 PM
My next quest. Just swim the 50 free. Only.

Also the 50 fly :)

Jazz Hands
June 11th, 2008, 03:06 PM
Plus, I would be unhappy only working out 3x a week. I can do "less is more" in the pool, but 4 days of sitting around doing nothing? No thanks. Don't want to sacrifice fitness and I like cross training.

I'm with you on that. I like to do some kind of exercise every day. A little bit of lifting, a little bit of swimming. In the summer, maybe some kayaking and biking as well. It's a mental health thing.

Paul Smith
June 11th, 2008, 03:37 PM
I don't know about SVDL as the role model either, frankly. Her workouts don't represent what most elite masters do; she's just extraordinarily talented. Most are working out way more than 3x a week to achieve their results. I think Chris Stevenson is more typical. Plus, I would be unhappy only working out 3x a week. I can do "less is more" in the pool, but 4 days of sitting around doing nothing? No thanks. Don't want to sacrifice fitness and I like cross training.

Disagree Fort:
- Susan trains like at least a dozen others including myself. If you swam her workouts 3x a week you wouldn't be able to swim "hard" with any decent speed because you would be so wasted. Remember what Rich A said, masters swimmers swim to fast when they swim slow and to slow when they swim fast. A 40+ year old is going to be challenged getting more than 3 days week of really fast workouts in.

- None of us takes 4 days off out of 7, rather in my case its typically alternating swim/lift-cross train day, recovery day, rest day. If I feel really strong i might run the cycle out to 4 or 5 days in a row before i take a rest day...everything is dictated by how I feel...no wasted time in training.

Paul Smith
June 11th, 2008, 03:48 PM
Whatever. You compare us to Lacey and Natalie. But wait, we aren't to put in their kind of yardage. That would be crazy. But wait. We are to train in the weight room like they are. And we'll be as lean as they are and not overly bulky. At 30 and 40 and 50, etc.Uh uh.

I'm not comparing you or anyone else here to anyone, touchy aren't we. I am saying that for those who are interested in training/competing you look at the best and what they do...and you adapt.

Maybe if you came to a few masters meet not only would you be able to quit whining about not having you times recognized by USMS (or wait, you said that wasn't important) you'd see women in their 30's, 40's & 50's that understand this type of thinking/training and do quite well.

Ever met Liz Hobbs...take a look at her times, ever met my wife? She gives Dara a run for he money in the "guns" department, Anna Scott? Kim Crouch? Caroline Krattli? All these women train as I have been describing, are ripped, fast and beautiful.

The Fortress
June 11th, 2008, 03:49 PM
Hey you, Tall Paul, I'm pretty good at taking advice and am darn decent with the going slow, going fast thing! I don't do super hard core work in the pool more than 3x a week, probably less. I like to do recovery, drill and hypoxic type stuff too. So :thhbbb: What's SVDL's typical workout in the pool?

SVDL is on record as saying she only works out 3x a week and that's "pretty darn good" for a mom. I just don't think 3x a week is representative of WR holders. I ideally prefer 6x a week with some "doubles" for fitness. Yesterday, I did a 30 minute run and a good sprint workout. Today, I did an hour of weights/core and 30 minutes of cycling. Tomorrow, I'm going to my team LC workout for some aerobic work. Etc. I do have a week of scuba and snorkel planned too. :) Am I really training that differently than you, eh? You're swimming, spinning, lifting, running stadium steps, doing yoga. Hmm....

Caroline and Kim and Laura look great! Although I swam right next to Caroline in the 100 back at Nats, where I met her, and I think she's more tall and slim than "ripped." But the "guns" award has to go to AJ Block.

swimcat
June 11th, 2008, 04:02 PM
Oooohhhhh, sounds like a 100 free gridge is brewing! I'll be at Portland; I entered 100/200 fly, 200/400 IM, 400 free, and 200 back. 6th event is the 200 IM. Anybody wanna gridge? I might walk up to you before your heat and whisper "secret forum gridge" just to mess with you... :rolleyes: <makes note to do that anyway>

Regarding female ripped bulkage, my understanding is that the correct code word is "toned." At the gym I swim at, that's the word they use when they advertise a strength training class. Toned = good, ripped = bad, actual difference = nothing.

as a female, i prefer the term "cut". :weightlifter:

CreamPuff
June 11th, 2008, 07:04 PM
I'm not comparing you or anyone else here to anyone, touchy aren't we. I am saying that for those who are interested in training/competing you look at the best and what they do...and you adapt.

Maybe if you came to a few masters meet not only would you be able to quit whining about not having you times recognized by USMS (or wait, you said that wasn't important) you'd see women in their 30's, 40's & 50's that understand this type of thinking/training and do quite well.

Ever met Liz Hobbs...take a look at her times, ever met my wife? She gives Dara a run for he money in the "guns" department, Anna Scott? Kim Crouch? Caroline Krattli? All these women train as I have been describing, are ripped, fast and beautiful.

Woa! Touchy is one thing. How come it's so easy to get your panties in such a wad? Just b/c I'm not like you and prefer to do my own thing when it comes to my hobby?

Accuracy is your middle name I see. I have no USMS recognized times as I don't attend Masters meets. Just as you are in the know with how we women train (and think for that matter! :lmao:) and how masters swimmers should train, you have my stats 100% accurate.

How's this for a land gridge? I quit whining about Top 10s not counting and you quit your crying about people who don't actually want to be like you and train as you do. Let's see who caves first.

You had your chance and you swam your brains out as a youth. Why condemn those of us who are healthy and feeling great and who never had that opportunity to try (gasp!) a few workouts over 5K? Why deny us the lessons we learn about ourselves and life in those tough practices?

I'm sure when I'm your age I'll want to switch to your 4x a week of swimming, weight lifting, and cross training. Oh wait. :dunno: That sounds like a heck of lot more work than I'm doing which is just swimming. Somehow in your mind that equates to "less." "Less is more" is a nice sound bite. I think I'll stick to my easier routine!

You are right. I've not met your lovely wife, but I would love to.

ande
June 11th, 2008, 07:17 PM
Some of us like those GSA's and highly encourage certain others to follow suit



those glamour shot avatars

Paul Smith
June 11th, 2008, 07:51 PM
:whiteflag:

That Guy
June 11th, 2008, 07:52 PM
Some of us like those GSA's and highly encourage certain others to follow suit

Hey thanks! I think the camera got my good side. I hope it isn't too obvious that I'm sucking in my gut and flexing...

Midas
June 11th, 2008, 07:56 PM
I must say that this thread has gone way off the rails... Can we all get along?

Paul Smith
June 11th, 2008, 08:04 PM
I must say that this thread has gone way off the rails... Can we all get along?


Your correct. I've deleted my last post.

Train smart, swim fast...end of discussion.

Glider
June 11th, 2008, 08:15 PM
Paul and Kristina,

All the multiple, multiple top ten swims and number one rankings between the both of you is just proof that there is no ONE single way to get 'r done.

On a side note, very nice 4:41 400 FR LCM last weekend, Kristina. Blew all the boys out of the pool (top ten candidates, too!)


Your correct. I've deleted my last post.

Train smart, swim fast...end of discussion.

SwimStud
June 11th, 2008, 10:20 PM
Don't make me get my guns out!!
:duel:

The Fortress
June 11th, 2008, 10:29 PM
Your correct. I've deleted my last post.

Too late! I read that Laura accepted your marriage proposal when drunk!

What's with this "your correct" stuff, eh? lol I thought you went to UCSB for an education! BTW, water polo looks like a great sport. I think my kid would like it more than swimming.

Jazz Hands
June 15th, 2008, 06:05 PM
Time to celebrate/brag. Today I got a new personal best in the trap bar deadlift by 20 pounds! Trap bar has always been my best lift, and it's very cool that I'm getting stronger in it even as I lose weight. I'm seeing the difference in the pool, as well.

jaegermeister
June 15th, 2008, 09:36 PM
Great work, Brian. Those are impressive lifts.

I like the idea of a trap bar. While doing my deadlifts last Thursday I managed to draw blood from one of my shins, and before I got a band aid from the desk I managed to stain the bar. Fortunately, they've got sanitizer all over the place.

The Fortress
June 19th, 2008, 12:16 PM
I officially quit! I don't want to get stronger. I just want to not look and feel like a tank. Its torture to swim and run when I lift like this. Lifting heavy, for me, is like being married to the wrong person. From now on, I'm all about the core work. The rest of you carry on and I'll read about your exploits!

pwolf66
June 19th, 2008, 02:09 PM
Wow Fort,

You made it what? 2 weeks? Way to give it a chance. Geez. :lmao:

Paul

Jazz Hands
June 19th, 2008, 02:37 PM
I officially quit! I don't want to swim faster. I am much more concerned with negative changes in my appearance that I'm imagining. I'm feeling the effects of lifting, and I don't want to pay my dues so I can be much faster when I'm rested.

Suit yourself.

Paul Smith
June 19th, 2008, 02:39 PM
I officially quit! I don't want to get stronger. I just want to not look and feel like a tank. Its torture to swim and run when I lift like this. Lifting heavy, for me, is like being married to the wrong person. From now on, I'm all about the core work. The rest of you carry on and I'll read about your exploits!

If you really hate it than quit...it is after all just masters. In fairness however trying anything new takes as much mental effort (or more) as it does physical. Based on how terrible your feeling my guess is its showing you just how much room to develop strength/power you have (had).

The flip side of swimming thru broken down periods and then fully resting is you'll swim more powerfully then you ever have before...but I emphasize that you have to REALLY rest. You also have to be willing to take more recovery days between hard lifting and swimming sessions...the curse of being OLD!

The Fortress
June 19th, 2008, 02:54 PM
Wow Fort,

You made it what? 2 weeks? Way to give it a chance. Geez. :lmao:

Paul

5 weeks. Happiness is more important. My workout time is limited this summer. I don't want to spend it doing stuff I hate. Everyone is different. And certain people will be crushed in the 100 back tomorrow despite their superior strength!

I'm going to look into machine pilates instead.

pwolf66
June 19th, 2008, 03:11 PM
And certain people will be crushed in the 100 back tomorrow despite their superior strength!


I'm going front 50 to a hand touch then doing a 'Paul Smith' just slower, I should stilll be able to break our team record of 1:16 tho, I hope.

Paul

pwolf66
June 19th, 2008, 03:13 PM
5 weeks. Happiness is more important. My workout time is limited this summer. I don't want to spend it doing stuff I hate. Everyone is different. And certain people will be crushed in the 100 back tomorrow despite their superior strength!


Wanna go my Fly versus your Free again? I think this would be the rubber match.

Paul

The Fortress
June 19th, 2008, 04:05 PM
Wanna go my Fly versus your Free again? I think this would be the rubber match.

Paul


Don't think I'm swimming the 50 free on Sunday. I'm completely swamped with guests, meets, travel, 3 kids running wild ... :drown: I'll be there Friday and Saturday even though (unlike you) I'm missing my kids' meet and being voted off the mommy island. I'll be adorned in my cheatin' black Pro with a hole since my new suit has not arrived yet.

ande
June 19th, 2008, 04:09 PM
good luck fort

to get faster
I need to
1) weigh less
2) get stronger, do heavier weight training sets &
3) swim faster in practice



I officially quit! I don't want to get stronger. I just want to not look and feel like a tank. Its torture to swim and run when I lift like this. Lifting heavy, for me, is like being married to the wrong person. From now on, I'm all about the core work. The rest of you carry on and I'll read about your exploits!

The Fortress
June 19th, 2008, 04:13 PM
good luck fort

to get faster
I need to
1) weigh less
2) get stronger, do heavier weight training sets &
3) swim faster in practice


I don't think you can swim much faster in practice.

As I mentioned to you privately, it's possible I'm having so much trouble lifting heavy and recovering because I went at it full bore while still recovering from my bout of bronchitis/pneumonia. I'm still not 100% and have to use my inhaler pretty frequently. :oldman: But I don't think I'll ever look like Natalie Coughlin no matter what I do!

pwolf66
June 19th, 2008, 04:14 PM
Don't think I'm swimming the 50 free on Sunday. I'm completely swamped with guests, meets, travel, 3 kids running wild ... :drown: I'll be there Friday and Saturday even though (unlike you) I'm missing my kids' meet and being voted off the mommy island. I'll be adorned in my cheatin' black Pro with a hole since my new suit has not arrived yet.

Bummer, yeah, Mel looked at me funny when I 'reminded' her that I had a meet tomorrow :bolt:

Will miss you on Sunday.

I really don't feel like swimming the 100 back tomorrow. I really, really, really don't.

Paul

The Fortress
June 19th, 2008, 04:17 PM
Bummer, yeah, Mel looked at me funny when I 'reminded' her that I had a meet tomorrow :bolt:

Will miss you on Sunday.

I really don't feel like swimming the 100 back tomorrow. I really, really, really don't.

Paul

Hard to do things that you hate. :mooning:

Think of it a practice for that 200 free you're aspiring to!

pwolf66
June 19th, 2008, 04:21 PM
Hard to do things that you hate. :mooning:

Think of it a practice for that 200 free you're aspiring to!

It's not hate, per se, it's just a serious feeling of dread.

But, hopefully, maybe, getting set at the start will get me 'in the mood'

I really want to see if I can go under 1:09, I have been working on my stroke but I'm just not sure I'm ready for that level of pain. Guess I'll see how the 100 Free goes. If that doesn't hurt too bad then that might change things.

Chris Stevenson
June 19th, 2008, 04:23 PM
I officially quit! I don't want to get stronger. I just want to not look and feel like a tank. Its torture to swim and run when I lift like this. Lifting heavy, for me, is like being married to the wrong person. From now on, I'm all about the core work. The rest of you carry on and I'll read about your exploits!

Fort, is it the HEAVY lifting that bothers you (more weight, low reps)? Maybe it doesn't have to be all or nothing, perhaps alternating a low/high rep workouts, with plenty of core work, would work for you? Or heavy/heavier lifting once a week?

I'm officially broken down too, I skipped weights today and am taking a couple days easy. (Well, easier.)

Paul Smith, about your avatar: is that cat laughing or shrieking? Were you parading about in your tutu again? That could explain either reaction, I suppose...

Paul Smith
June 19th, 2008, 04:42 PM
Paul Smith, about your avatar: is that cat laughing or shrieking? Were you parading about in your tutu again? That could explain either reaction, I suppose...

I saw it and thought it might be the reaction I get from (S)he the first time we meet in person...with or without said tutu!

Swimming completely torn down is no fun..unless you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Yesterday morning after a very painful lactate set I could only muster a 1:06 100 free (LCM)!!! Sam Perry threw down a 1:07 in his backstroke for pete's sake...but I know this, with the pain comes strength when I'm fully rested...and I can wait.

The Fortress
June 19th, 2008, 04:44 PM
Fort, is it the HEAVY lifting that bothers you (more weight, low reps)? Maybe it doesn't have to be all or nothing, perhaps alternating a low/high rep workouts, with plenty of core work, would work for you? Or heavy/heavier lifting once a week?

I'm officially broken down too, I skipped weights today and am taking a couple days easy. (Well, easier.)

Paul Smith, about your avatar: is that cat laughing or shrieking? Were you parading about in your tutu again? That could explain either reaction, I suppose...

Heavy. I've lifted light the whole time I've been swimming. (Never done high rep workouts though, so that holds somewhat more appeal.) Just intensely dislike feeling broken down from weights. It's a different kind of broken down. And if swimming and running become torture, and I feel like an age grouper, is it worth it?

I thought about alternating. But would lifting heavy 1x a week really help and make a difference? I've also thought about doing fewer exercises so as to not get completely beaten up.

CreamPuff
June 19th, 2008, 04:45 PM
I officially quit! I don't want to get stronger. I just want to not look and feel like a tank. Its torture to swim and run when I lift like this. Lifting heavy, for me, is like being married to the wrong person. From now on, I'm all about the core work. The rest of you carry on and I'll read about your exploits!

I understand how you feel.

However, that's actually a pretty nifty lookin' tank you got there.

In terms of getting motivated to get stronger and more tank-like, have you considered growing a penis?

Paul Smith
June 19th, 2008, 04:49 PM
Speaking of getting stronger and swimming faster...and someone who lifts the way that I have described (not much bulk/weight lifter physique going on there)...check out the beauty and power of Schoemans free:

http://www.goswim.tv/entries/4805/go-swim-sprint-freestyle-with-roland-schoeman.html

The Fortress
June 19th, 2008, 04:51 PM
Surely it's possible that some folks get bulky or bulkier with heavy lifting and some don't?

scyfreestyler
June 19th, 2008, 04:52 PM
In terms of getting motivated to get stronger and more tank-like, have you considered growing a penis?

That would be an interesting look in Fort's FS Pro.

Paul Smith
June 19th, 2008, 04:57 PM
Surely it's possible that some folks get bulky with heavy lifting and some don't?

Of course....but again were talking about two very different types of things; power lifting vs. bodybuilding.

Remember Rich A's quote about the problem with adult/masters swimmers being that "when they swim slow they swim to fast and when they swim fast they swim to slow". Same thing can be said about weight training, lots of folks who don't understand it and do it in ways that probably are not specific to their end goal(s).

Bottom line however is that if your focus is 50-100 then strength training according to most respected coaches/athletes is a necessity to maximize your potential.

The Fortress
June 19th, 2008, 05:29 PM
Power lifting makes me look like a tank ... at least relative to my old pre-swimming self. (I added that caveat for Smith.) So I guess I'll stop a teensy short of maximizing my potential. In any event, "maximizing your potential" is an awfully tall or abstract order for masters swimmers with lives and responsibilities. Just gotta do the best you can do given your circumstances. On the upside, at the moment, I'll be able to take down my skinny little cross country runner when he crashes the car.

I'd be curious to compare how I do one season with lifting and one season without. I still think my best meet was last August and I wasn't lifting much then. Perhaps lifting is more important for short course.

CreamPuff
June 19th, 2008, 08:58 PM
I saw it and thought it might be the reaction I get from (S)he the first time we meet in person...with or without said tutu!

Swimming completely torn down is no fun..unless you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Yesterday morning after a very painful lactate set I could only muster a 1:06 100 free (LCM)!!! Sam Perry threw down a 1:07 in his backstroke for pete's sake...but I know this, with the pain comes strength when I'm fully rested...and I can wait.

Already fantasizing about our first encounter, eh?
Knowing that, my response is indeed, :eek:

I thought you didn't let yourself get completely torn down.

Allen Stark
June 19th, 2008, 09:01 PM
Fort,you set your self up for grief by telling us you were quitting lifting.You should have said that you had been lifting so much you needed a REALLY long taper(like the rest of your life.):notworking:
Seriously,listen to your body.You already have one burnout experience from swimming and don't need another.You want to swim for life and if lifting messes up your motivation,don't!

pwolf66
June 19th, 2008, 09:25 PM
In terms of getting motivated to get stronger and more tank-like, have you considered growing a penis?

:doh::doh::doh:

Was that REALLY necessary?

Now I need brain floss

CreamPuff
June 19th, 2008, 09:46 PM
:doh::doh::doh:

Was that REALLY necessary?

The other ladies who PM'd me found it quite amusing. Sorry to say I cannot post their follow up responses.

Paul Smith
June 19th, 2008, 10:18 PM
I thought you didn't let yourself get completely torn down.

I'm never not torn down...I'm old school but I recognize and accept that...and am confident in knowing how to rest and heal myself for a tapered meet. Unlike some I've never personally felt how fast or how far I swam in workout was the ultimate measure of how good I was.

Had a very interesting and enjoyable conversation about this today with Ron Johnson...don;t worry (S)he he's someone who has been so successful...but because he's older probably (vs. the younger college swimmers) not someone you would be interested in listening to.

Anyway, the discussion was about how swimmers like Hansen at UT is swimming like crap (2:13 200 breast recently) because he's torn down, tired and will focus on the end results...which he has typically done well in.....vs. some of the "new school" folks who swim fast all the time but take smaller drops or don't drop in their tapers. Won't go into the details but will say that in the betting pool I'm in on Trials I'm openly biased to the old school gals/guys.

Along those lines does GHJ, the 6th fastest man in the US going into the trials (in the 50) man up and make the team?

PS; Fort...love the new avatar!

Paul Smith
June 19th, 2008, 10:30 PM
Already fantasizing about our first encounter, eh

Like a trip to the proctologist! :help:

The Fortress
June 19th, 2008, 10:41 PM
Oh good, I've felt like crap since Nationals. An old fashioned taper is great, but you have to have the big meet and fast pool to do it in. We don't all go to Nats every season!

I am so strong now that I just won the wrestling match with my Nero comp! Holy sh@t that was hard to get on. Feels very different from the Pro.


I'm never not torn down...I'm old school but I recognize and accept that...and am confident in knowing how to rest and heal myself for a tapered meet. Unlike some I've never personally felt how fast or how far I swam in workout was the ultimate measure of how good I was.

Had a very interesting and enjoyable conversation about this today with Ron Johnson...don;t worry (S)he he's someone who has been so successful...but because he's older probably (vs. the younger college swimmers) not someone you would be interested in listening to.

Anyway, the discussion was about how swimmers like Hansen at UT is swimming like crap (2:13 200 breast recently) because he's torn down, tired and will focus on the end results...which he has typically done well in.....vs. some of the "new school" folks who swim fast all the time but take smaller drops or don't drop in their tapers. Won't go into the details but will say that in the betting pool I'm in on Trials I'm openly biased to the old school gals/guys.

Along those lines does GHJ, the 6th fastest man in the US going into the trials (in the 50) man up and make the team?

PS; Fort...love the new avatar!

jaegermeister
June 20th, 2008, 01:00 AM
This is a bit off the recent thread emphasis, but I wanted to float the idea nonetheless. While I'm rehabbing my shoulder, I'm doing a ton of kicking in the pool, which has kept up my feel for the water quite well.

However, I've noted that the leg work I've done in the gym (squats, deadlifts, etc) do almost nothing for my kick. I'm sure there are other benefits (starts, breakouts...) but it would seem that strengthening the kick is not one of them.

The drill that's improved my kick power the most has been vertical kicking with a 6 lb. medicine ball.

Paul Smith
June 20th, 2008, 10:53 AM
We don't all go to Nats every season!

Fort, this is a great point and one that I should be more detailed in my posts when discussing. It doesn't have to be nationals, it can be a regional or a small local meet...the more important point is that its good to cycle your training. How often do you see fitness swimmers getting in the pool and swimming their 40 laps for example? Or masters swimmers who train hard year around but never vary their routine by either resting or taking 2 one week breaks a year? Periodization will improve anyones overall fitness level regardless of what if any actual event they want to train for.

Tom, I don't see any real gains in kicking "power" from these types of lifts...definitely fa better off the blocks and walls and overall strength. I believe that if you want a more powerful kick it comes from doing lots of hard kicking....adding in things like wearing sneakers, kicking using a bungee, fin work, etc. etc.

SwimRobin
June 20th, 2008, 12:08 PM
I find this discussion about being broken down very interesting. Like several others on these forums, I have been working very hard in the pool and weight room since I returned home from SC Nationals, where I swam well. I increased my swimming workouts from 3 to 4 per week, and recently started attending the early morning workouts (which are long course). For the last couple of weeks I have been completely worn out and unable to keep the usual pace in the pool. It seems like I am paying for all of that hard work - at least I hope that is what is happening.

The Fortress
June 20th, 2008, 03:26 PM
Fort, this is a great point and one that I should be more detailed in my posts when discussing. It doesn't have to be nationals, it can be a regional or a small local meet...the more important point is that its good to cycle your training. How often do you see fitness swimmers getting in the pool and swimming their 40 laps for example? Or masters swimmers who train hard year around but never vary their routine by either resting or taking 2 one week breaks a year? Periodization will improve anyones overall fitness level regardless of what if any actual event they want to train for.


I do what you are suggesting, but since my meet attendance is limited, I always find myself wondering how to get times in all the courses. To even attempt to get more than a few times, I have to swim pretty fast year round whenever a meet I can attend arises. I'm already gnashing my teeth that the LC season is so short and I can only go to one meet. Plus, the "old fashioned taper" is difficult to achieve when you are besieged with kid stuff. You just can't sit on your butt and rest up.

OK, so before Hulk squeals on me, I'll just say that you lifters are probably right. I'm "man" enough to admit when I'm wrong. I just dropped significant time for PBs today at my meet with only 4-5 weeks lifting, a few days rest and no caffeine IV or long nails. lol It ain't all the suit. Definitely strength gains. Hulk watched my 100 back and said my turnover was slower, but that I was more powerful. So, it's clear that more strength is a key path to improvement for me. We'll see if I can overcome my dislike of it.

Smith by Marriage
June 20th, 2008, 03:43 PM
To say that a woman will get tank like if she lifts is ridiculous! Muscle takes three times the energy to maintain than does fat. Thus, to keep your metabolism up, create muscle! Aerobic training is a quick fix for calorie burning....but a few hours after activity, you go back to your resting metabolic rate. If you have more muscle, your resting rate is highter, and your burning more calories. This hardly equates to Tankhood. Also, if you're an older woman (or man) and swimming is your only activity, osteoporis is a concern because although our sport is phenomenal for general health...it is not weight bearing, so your not taxing your bones and encouraging them to stay dense. Weight training counters this.
I'm a middle-aged woman with fat tendencies. Trust me; there is no way I'm going to throw myself into an activity (other than the local Chinese buffet on occassion) that is going to make me bigger. I have NEVER seen a woman become bulky from lifting. EVER. For a woman to become "masculine" by weight training, there's a concentrated effort on her part of changing diet, taking various 'supplements' and having a solid focus on becoming "huge". On the level you seem to be talking about here (having weights compliment your swimming by lifting a few times a week) there is nothing at all to worry about.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
And Leslie....I've seen you. You are gorgeous!

Smith by Marriage
June 20th, 2008, 03:46 PM
Side note: to get into one of those new $#@($*^$ Speedo Laser Pros, you do need incredible arm strength. One more reason to lift!

pwolf66
June 20th, 2008, 07:46 PM
OK, so before Hulk squeals on me, I'll just say that you lifters are probably right. I'm "man" enough to admit when I'm wrong. I just dropped significant time for PBs today at my meet with only 4-5 weeks lifting, a few days rest and no caffeine IV or long nails. lol It ain't all the suit. Definitely strength gains. Hulk watched my 100 back and said my turnover was slower, but that I was more powerful. So, it's clear that more strength is a key path to improvement for me. We'll see if I can overcome my dislike of it.

Glad you outed yourself there, Fort. I really wish I had video'd your swim. I think that would have really shown you how much stronger your pull is now. I think that if you combine that with a slightly higher turnover, you will see even more improvement. Good luck with the 50 back tomorrow. I expect to see low 33. Spliting 34.29 to the feet should prove to you that you can do it.

On a side note: I attempted to bribe the IGLA officials to redact my 100 back swim from the results but no luck. So if you want to see a death of epic proportions keep an eye out. It was REALLY bad.:frustrated: :frustrated: :frustrated: :frustrated:

CreamPuff
June 20th, 2008, 10:41 PM
Well said Laura. I'm in total agreement.

Congratulations Leslie on the amazingly fast swims! :cheerleader:You've worked hard! Best of luck to you tomorrow and please keep us all posted with how you do.


To say that a woman will get tank like if she lifts is ridiculous! Muscle takes three times the energy to maintain than does fat. Thus, to keep your metabolism up, create muscle! Aerobic training is a quick fix for calorie burning....but a few hours after activity, you go back to your resting metabolic rate. If you have more muscle, your resting rate is highter, and your burning more calories. This hardly equates to Tankhood. Also, if you're an older woman (or man) and swimming is your only activity, osteoporis is a concern because although our sport is phenomenal for general health...it is not weight bearing, so your not taxing your bones and encouraging them to stay dense. Weight training counters this.
I'm a middle-aged woman with fat tendencies. Trust me; there is no way I'm going to throw myself into an activity (other than the local Chinese buffet on occassion) that is going to make me bigger. I have NEVER seen a woman become bulky from lifting. EVER. For a woman to become "masculine" by weight training, there's a concentrated effort on her part of changing diet, taking various 'supplements' and having a solid focus on becoming "huge". On the level you seem to be talking about here (having weights compliment your swimming by lifting a few times a week) there is nothing at all to worry about.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
And Leslie....I've seen you. You are gorgeous!

CreamPuff
June 21st, 2008, 11:01 AM
Like a trip to the proctologist! :help:

I support whatever you prefer! There's no shame in old school, new school, or back door approaches.

The Fortress
June 22nd, 2008, 06:17 PM
Congratulations Leslie on the amazingly fast swims! :cheerleader:You've worked hard! Best of luck to you tomorrow and please keep us all posted with how you do.

Thanks guys! 50 back went well.

I even ran to the gym to squeeze in a lift today before I take my new muscles on vacation. :rofl: :whiteflag:

pwolf66
June 23rd, 2008, 11:02 AM
Thanks guys! 50 back went well.

I even ran to the gym to squeeze in a lift today before I take my new muscles on vacation. :rofl: :whiteflag:

Well? WELL? I would call 31.71 a LITTLE better than 'well'. :weightlifter: :weightlifter: :weightlifter: :weightlifter:

Chris Stevenson
June 26th, 2008, 11:25 AM
Gabe Mirkin, MD, wrote "How to become strong (http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/8845.html)."

Basic conclusion: to increase strength, it is better to do one set of 10 reps with more weight compared to 3 sets of 10 reps.

The article ends with a line that should appeal to masters swimmers: "When it comes to becoming very strong, less may be more."

(I should probably comment that -- in the main -- I myself don't typically follow this advice, but then again I am usually more interested in muscular endurance compared to raw strength. But I do have a phase in my month-long lifting "cycle" where I do more weights and lower reps.)

The Fortress
July 4th, 2008, 11:03 AM
Is it a good idea to go for an easy swim after lifting weights? I've heard conflicting thoughts on this.

Jazz Hands
July 4th, 2008, 11:10 AM
Is it a good idea to go for an easy swim after lifting weights? I've heard conflicting thoughts on this.

It's fine.

tjrpatt
July 4th, 2008, 03:31 PM
I prefer to lift than swim because you can cool down after sweating. I don't get swimming than lifting. You will have to shower after you lift, I have to.

The Fortress
July 22nd, 2008, 10:23 PM
Argh! I strained my shoulder some, I think from a lift I was doing. It was a press with 25 lb. dumbbells on an incline bench. I can't press/push anything with the arms anymore. :shakeshead: I can do the iso row at 160 lb, but can't press a thing ... I assume this is somewhat common in swimmers? My question is, is this something that should be corrected? Should I do more integrated exercises? Just enough to reverse a muscle imbalance?

Asked a teammate at practice tonight about this. He said knock off that specific exercise and be mellow on the weights for awhile. He also said he only does enough pushing exercises to prevent moobs. Thoughts?

CreamPuff
July 23rd, 2008, 08:02 AM
Argh! I strained my shoulder some, I think from a lift I was doing. It was a press with 25 lb. dumbbells on an incline bench. I can't press/push anything with the arms anymore. :shakeshead: I can do the iso row at 160 lb, but can't press a thing ... I assume this is somewhat common in swimmers? My question is, is this something that should be corrected? Should I do more integrated exercises? Just enough to reverse a muscle imbalance?

Asked a teammate at practice tonight about this. He said knock off that specific exercise and be mellow on the weights for awhile. He also said he only does enough pushing exercises to prevent moobs. Thoughts?

Sorry you strained your shoulder a bit. Stinky. You know my limited weight lifting experience so I can't give any good advice. But - woa! 25lb on incline!? Impressive. I've not gone over 20lb dumbbells. Neither have the gals on the SR I team either. Moobs. :rofl:

The Fortress
July 23rd, 2008, 06:19 PM
Sorry you strained your shoulder a bit. Stinky. You know my limited weight lifting experience so I can't give any good advice. But - woa! 25lb on incline!? Impressive. I've not gone over 20lb dumbbells. Neither have the gals on the SR I team either. Moobs. :rofl:

I'm eliminating and then reducing that exercise. Saw my ART doc today. No damage, just strained. He says that, overall, my shoulder seems to be more stable from the lifting. But he DID agree that I have more muscle mass and definition since Nats. It's noticeable, as I've only been in twice. And I would certainly say that my appearance has changed since I became a masters swimmer. (Although, unlike Dara, I have plenty of body fat.) I won't go so far as to say I'm a tank, or that will bring Clydesdale out of the closet speedy quick. But you know what I mean, Ms. Moose-Beast!

Does lifting make one hungry? I seem to be going through an especially ravenous period.

Jazz Hands
July 23rd, 2008, 06:57 PM
Does lifting make one hungry? I seem to be going through an especially ravenous period.

I think it does. If you're adding muscle, that extra energy has to come from somewhere.

ViveBene
July 23rd, 2008, 07:01 PM
Do you know this site: www.crossfit.com (http://www.crossfit.com) ?
Most of the guys (not sure about the gals) seem to put on weight and drink a ton of milk while trying to eat Paleo (birdseed, rocks, unwoven flax, that sort of thing).

So yes, I think lifting could make you ravenous.




Does lifting make one hungry? I seem to be going through an especially ravenous period.

CreamPuff
July 23rd, 2008, 10:19 PM
Does lifting make one hungry? I seem to be going through an especially ravenous period.

Yes! And as you know, if and when I lift, I don't even sweat. I notice I'm more hungry. I thought it was b/c your metabolism (resting and otherwise) increases due to increased muscle.
She-Moose

CreamPuff
July 23rd, 2008, 10:29 PM
Do you know this site: www.crossfit.com (http://www.crossfit.com) ?
Most of the guys (not sure about the gals) seem to put on weight and drink a ton of milk while trying to eat Paleo (birdseed, rocks, unwoven flax, that sort of thing).

So yes, I think lifting could make you ravenous.

Yep. One of the guys (holds a masters world record or two) I knew referred me to crossfit - it works. But, I was totally scared off. I'm being serious. Lifting tires. . . perhaps in the future. For now, I'll pass.

swimBRCT
November 7th, 2011, 09:36 PM
Note that being hungry after a workout doesn't mean your energy expenditure matches your hunger levels.

(So if you're hungry enough to eat 2 hamburgers after a workout, it doesn't mean you burned 2 hamburgers worth of calories...)

I saw in a recent interview that Brendan Hansen uses PX90 muscle confusion principles for his dryland routine, but I don't know anything about the program.