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JMiller
May 26th, 2008, 10:39 PM
I tried on the FS PRO today, it was very tight... even the XXL was tight, although I think the XL will work fine... but, but... it just seems like a full body paper suit... versus the FS 2 which has all the cool material, etc..

Which one is better? $450 dollars is the price here, is there a better way to order it? I'd rather wait for the LZR in the fall if that's the best I can do.

ande
May 27th, 2008, 10:09 AM
hey j,

I've worn them all
I prefer the hineck pro

I wrote about them in this swim faster faster tip
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449&postcount=732

here's where I've found good prices, much lower than $450

Mens Full Body
http://tinyurl.com/yu2hwd

Mens LegSkins
http://tinyurl.com/25hzh4

Mens Jammers
http://tinyurl.com/2wree6

Womens Full body
http://tinyurl.com/264te8

Womens
http://tinyurl.com/3hyo4f

If you're pressed for time before a meet
I'd order a couple different sizes,
keep the one that fits best and return the other
rather than
ordering the wrong size,
risk it not fitting, then
having to return it for a replacement, and then
that replacement not arriving in time to wear at the meet you got it for in the first place.

the goal is to
get the suit you're going to wear in your meet at least
a week or 2 before the meet starts so you can try it on at home and test it out in practice


LZR's

looks like LZR's won't be available till late july (they are delayed)
LZRs can be faster but they have issues like

What size to wear
several swimmers are wearing a couple sizes down
also keep in mind that the suit has sections that are like papersuit fabric and sections that are papersuit fabric with rubber over them
the rubber sections hardly stretch at all so any give the suit has is due to the papersuit sections between rubber panels
They can be hard to get on.

Zippers Break
I've personally seen 3 hineck LZR zippers break at meets
one in a race
in all cases the hineck LZR was zipped up (on tall men) and the teeth broke apart
It was quite difficult to pull the zippers back to the base

I've heard good things about the new generation of TYR suits
I'd like to test both and see which one produces the best times.

hope this helps

Ande




I tried on the FS PRO today, it was very tight... even the XXL was tight, although I think the XL will work fine... but, but... it just seems like a full body paper suit... versus the FS 2 which has all the cool material, etc..

Which one is better? $450 dollars is the price here, is there a better way to order it? I'd rather wait for the LZR in the fall if that's the best I can do.

JMiller
May 27th, 2008, 12:52 PM
Yes, thank you Ande...


hey j,

I've worn them all
I prefer the hineck pro

I wrote about them in this swim faster faster tip
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449&postcount=732

here's where I've found good prices, much lower than $450

Mens Full Body
http://tinyurl.com/yu2hwd

Mens LegSkins
http://tinyurl.com/25hzh4

Mens Jammers
http://tinyurl.com/2wree6

Womens Full body
http://tinyurl.com/264te8

Womens
http://tinyurl.com/3hyo4f

looks like LZR's won't be available till late july (they are delayed)
LZRs can be faster but they have issues
Like

what size to wear
several swimmers are wearing a couple sizes down

Zippers Break
I've personally seen 3 hineck LZR zippers break at meets
one in a race
in all cases the hineck LZR was zipped up (on tall men) and the teeth broke apart
It was quite difficult to pull the zippers back to the base

If you're pressed for time before a meet
I'd order a couple different sizes,
keep the one that fits best and return the other
rather than order the wrong size,
risk it not fitting, and having to return it for a better fit.

the goal is to
get the suit you're going to wear in your meet at least
a week or 2 before the meet starts

hope this helps

Ande

Dolphin 2
May 28th, 2008, 11:58 AM
hey j,

I've worn them all
I prefer the hineck pro

I wrote about them in this swim faster faster tip
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449&postcount=732

here's where I've found good prices, much lower than $450

Mens Full Body
http://tinyurl.com/yu2hwd

Mens LegSkins
http://tinyurl.com/25hzh4

Mens Jammers
http://tinyurl.com/2wree6

Womens Full body
http://tinyurl.com/264te8

Womens
http://tinyurl.com/3hyo4f

If you're pressed for time before a meet
I'd order a couple different sizes,
keep the one that fits best and return the other
rather than
ordering the wrong size,
risk it not fitting, then
having to return it for a replacement, and then
that replacement not arriving in time to wear at the meet you got it for in the first place.

the goal is to
get the suit you're going to wear in your meet at least
a week or 2 before the meet starts so you can try it on at home and test it out in practice


LZR's

looks like LZR's won't be available till late july (they are delayed)
LZRs can be faster but they have issues like

What size to wear
several swimmers are wearing a couple sizes down
also keep in mind that the suit has sections that are like papersuit fabric and sections that are papersuit fabric with rubber over them
the rubber sections hardly stretch at all so any give the suit has is due to the papersuit sections between rubber panels
They can be hard to get on.

Zippers Break
I've personally seen 3 hineck LZR zippers break at meets
one in a race
in all cases the hineck LZR was zipped up (on tall men) and the teeth broke apart
It was quite difficult to pull the zippers back to the base

I've heard good things about the new generation of TYR suits
I'd like to test both and see which one produces the best times.

hope this helps

Ande

The more I read about these tech suits (complete with the hassle of putting them on, taking them off, zippers breaking, etc.), the more I think I’m developing a case of obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD) with an uncontrollable urge to start flinging off all of my clothes right down to my Fruit Of The Loom undies.!!! :bolt:

And when everyone is grumbling about gas being $4 a gallon, there are some people who will actually pony up $450 for one of these suits? :bitching:

Yeee Gadds, due to this suit technology stuff, swimming has undergone a complete metamorphosis from a simple, comfortable, and affordable athletic art into a hyper-competitive monstrosity. I wish we could just “Tivo” this lousy swimming movie backwards to the 1970s ASAP. :applaud:

Happy swimming-

Dolphin 2

Chris Stevenson
May 28th, 2008, 02:07 PM
due to this suit technology stuff, swimming has undergone a complete metamorphosis from a simple, comfortable, and affordable athletic art into a hyper-competitive monstrosity.

Even granting your assumption -- that swimming is a "monstrosity" that is overly competitive, compared to the sunny days in the 70s when apparently people swam naked and didn't care if they won or not -- IMO the tech suits are a reflection and not a cause at all.

It seems to me that youth sports have gotten incredibly intense in the last few decades, not just swimming. Combine this with skyrocketing pool fees, which help drive up the cost of the sport, and the advent of the post-college professional swimmer, and you have the makings of your "monstrosity."

I would agree that swimming is faster than ever. I do not think this is a bad thing, and I think the contribution of the suits to this fact is minor compared to many other factors.

Dolphin 2
May 28th, 2008, 03:26 PM
Hey Chris
While swimming is truly a fine athletic art, it is also the slowest of any sport. Compared with track events, even fast swimming is the moral equivalent of "plate tectonics". Although the statistics (as measured in percentages) indicate that swimming has become faster over the past 10 years, it is still a very low velocity sport. If sheer speed is the only objective, I would go into some land based activity like the 400 meter run.

Unfortunately, athletics has turned into some kind of Freudian exercise in which people obtain gratification through the connotation of superiority instead of making true achievements in their personal or career life. Sports has also become a manifestation of international militarism such as the arms race during the cold war era.

Like people throwing away big $$$ on expensive sports cars just for the emotional thrill of being faster on the street, this suit technology craze seems to be an example of how Freudianism has crept its way into swimming.

Unless they are swimming in $$$ (no pun intended), any Average Joe who would shell out over $450 for an LZR has a very serious problem with managing their personal finances and they will ultimately wind up drowning in debt (another pun not intended).

However I bet the suit makers are hysterically laughing their way to the bank with the big bucks they’ve made off all the suckers who fell for this suit technology craze!!! :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Dolphin 2

ande
May 28th, 2008, 03:41 PM
Tech Suits are a reality

Can you to afford to give up the time in a race a good tech suit can save you?

once LZR's are available, I'm sure that many masters will spring for one

FS Pro's, FS II's, & FS I's are very good and affordable.

I still haven't decided if I'm going to get an LZR, but
I definitely want to try one, do a fast swim and write about it for y'all.

swimcat
May 28th, 2008, 05:40 PM
i can answer for the tyr tracer lite. recently wore an fspro kneeskin and a tracer lite at y nats. the fs pro stretched a little ( i think i took a comfy size) the tracer lite was a tank. it did not stretch at all and reminded me of my paper suit days. the longer suits may fit different. also regarding the tank , it rides up on breaststroke.

hofffam
May 28th, 2008, 08:17 PM
Hey Chris
While swimming is truly a fine athletic art, it is also the slowest of any sport. Compared with track events, even fast swimming is the moral equivalent of "plate tectonics". Although the statistics (as measured in percentages) indicate that swimming has become faster over the past 10 years, it is still a very low velocity sport. If sheer speed is the only objective, I would go into some land based activity like the 400 meter run.

Unfortunately, athletics has turned into some kind of Freudian exercise in which people obtain gratification through the connotation of superiority instead of making true achievements in their personal or career life. Sports has also become a manifestation of international militarism such as the arms race during the cold war era.

Like people throwing away big $$$ on expensive sports cars just for the emotional thrill of being faster on the street, this suit technology craze seems to be an example of how Freudianism has crept its way into swimming.

Unless they are swimming in $$$ (no pun intended), any Average Joe who would shell out over $450 for an LZR has a very serious problem with managing their personal finances and they will ultimately wind up drowning in debt (another pun not intended).

However I bet the suit makers are hysterically laughing their way to the bank with the big bucks they’ve made off all the suckers who fell for this suit technology craze!!! :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Dolphin 2

Much of this seems incredibly judgemental. Who are you to say that an Average Joe buying a LZR has a serious problem? Maybe some Serious Joes think swimming very fast is very important.

As for fast cars - people have enjoyed them since cars existed. To these people it is not throwing away big $$$.

Are you similarly judgemental about other expensive things people spend their money on? Watches? Electronics? Shoes? Music? Art? Musical instruments?

some_girl
May 28th, 2008, 08:34 PM
Are you similarly judgemental about other expensive things people spend their money on? Watches? Electronics? Shoes? Music? Art? Musical instruments?

Like totally. Music was so much better in the 70s when you had an eight track. These kids with their iPods don't know what is real anymore. Watches? Pshaw. In the 70s we just used a sundial.

pwolf66
May 28th, 2008, 08:46 PM
Dolphin 2,

I had a very long response but after rereading your post, I realized that it would be like wrestling with a pig. I'd just get dirty and the pig would enjoy it. Just an absolutely incredible load of pedantic crap.

Paul

The Fortress
May 28th, 2008, 09:25 PM
Hey Chris
While swimming is truly a fine athletic art, it is also the slowest of any sport. Compared with track events, even fast swimming is the moral equivalent of "plate tectonics". Although the statistics (as measured in percentages) indicate that swimming has become faster over the past 10 years, it is still a very low velocity sport. If sheer speed is the only objective, I would go into some land based activity like the 400 meter run.

Unfortunately, athletics has turned into some kind of Freudian exercise in which people obtain gratification through the connotation of superiority instead of making true achievements in their personal or career life. Sports has also become a manifestation of international militarism such as the arms race during the cold war era.

Like people throwing away big $$$ on expensive sports cars just for the emotional thrill of being faster on the street, this suit technology craze seems to be an example of how Freudianism has crept its way into swimming.

Unless they are swimming in $$$ (no pun intended), any Average Joe who would shell out over $450 for an LZR has a very serious problem with managing their personal finances and they will ultimately wind up drowning in debt (another pun not intended).

However I bet the suit makers are hysterically laughing their way to the bank with the big bucks they’ve made off all the suckers who fell for this suit technology craze!!! :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Dolphin 2

Yeah, there's a bunch of real suckers holding USMS records and Top Ten rankings wearing these suits. They have no idea what they're doing ... "Judgmental" is rather mild for this post. Where do you get "connotations of superiority exactly?" Quite a leap ... Sounds like you have a superiority complex from your decision NOT to wear the suit.

Jonathan: I like the Pro better. It's much lighter and it's supposed to fit very very tight. I'd order a size down from an FS I or FS II.

ande
May 29th, 2008, 11:01 AM
Dolphin

every sport has equipment, swimming is no different
ours is just getting better and costs a bit more

Most swimmers don't swim for the "connotation of superiority"
They do it for health, personal achievement, and friendship
Like paul wrote: it's all about the journey not the destination.

Perhaps Freudianism has crept its way into you.

Each person knows their personal budget and can decide if they want to get a LZR or not. One LZR purchase isn't likely to be the cause for someone to drown in debt

Suit makers make suits to help swimmers swim faster.


Hey Chris
While swimming is truly a fine athletic art, it is also the slowest of any sport. Compared with track events, even fast swimming is the moral equivalent of "plate tectonics". Although the statistics (as measured in percentages) indicate that swimming has become faster over the past 10 years, it is still a very low velocity sport. If sheer speed is the only objective, I would go into some land based activity like the 400 meter run.

Unfortunately, athletics has turned into some kind of Freudian exercise in which people obtain gratification through the connotation of superiority instead of making true achievements in their personal or career life. Sports has also become a manifestation of international militarism such as the arms race during the cold war era.

Like people throwing away big $$$ on expensive sports cars just for the emotional thrill of being faster on the street, this suit technology craze seems to be an example of how Freudianism has crept its way into swimming.

Unless they are swimming in $$$ (no pun intended), any Average Joe who would shell out over $450 for an LZR has a very serious problem with managing their personal finances and they will ultimately wind up drowning in debt (another pun not intended).

However I bet the suit makers are hysterically laughing their way to the bank with the big bucks they’ve made off all the suckers who fell for this suit technology craze!!! :lmao::lmao::lmao:

Dolphin 2

knelson
May 29th, 2008, 11:22 AM
Unless they are swimming in $$$ (no pun intended), any Average Joe who would shell out over $450 for an LZR has a very serious problem with managing their personal finances and they will ultimately wind up drowning in debt (another pun not intended).

I know what you mean. To save up money to buy a LZR I've decided to start lighting my Cuban cigars with rolled up $20s rather than my customary $100s.

pwolf66
May 29th, 2008, 11:51 AM
I know what you mean. To save up money to buy a LZR I've decided to start lighting my Cuban cigars with rolled up $20s rather than my customary $100s.

Hmm, maybe I should have gone that route instead of not paying my mortgage? or feeding my kids?

Glider
May 29th, 2008, 12:35 PM
Very nice...Dripping sarcasm emoticon not even required.:agree:


I know what you mean. To save up money to buy a LZR I've decided to start lighting my Cuban cigars with rolled up $20s rather than my customary $100s.

knelson
May 29th, 2008, 12:36 PM
or feeding my kids?

It's all about Top Ramen, my man! :)

pwolf66
May 29th, 2008, 01:44 PM
It's all about Top Ramen, my man! :)

ADDICT FOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dolphin 2
May 29th, 2008, 02:05 PM
From Hofffman:
“Much of this seems incredibly judgmental. Who are you to say that an Average Joe buying a LZR has a serious problem? Maybe some Serious Joes think swimming very fast is very important.

As for fast cars - people have enjoyed them since cars existed. To these people it is not throwing away big $$$.

Are you similarly judgmental about other expensive things people spend their money on? Watches? Electronics? Shoes? Music? Art? Musical instruments?”

Reply From Dolphin 2
Yes my opinion IS judgmental – just like any economist will tell you that most Americans have a serious personal debt problem and they had better get a handle on their spending. I chose to own my home and make the mortgage payments instead of spending money on fancy cars and other expensive personal items while many others are still just renters and their net worth is -zero-.

Furthermore I find it ironically amusing how people are grousing and fuming about the high price of gas (which requires $Billions to drill for and produce) yet they will not hesitate to run out and plunk down $450 for an LZR (which is probably made in China for a few cents on the dollar). So who's the biggest price gouger -Exxon Mobil or Speedo?? :lolup:

Furthermore, the U.S. does have an obsession with sports and athletics similar to the Roman Empire and the Gladiators and too much public money is being spent on stadiums to hosting pro-sports teams. In addition, parents are aggressively prodding their children into sports at the expense of reduced academic achievement –just look at the poor test scores in reading, science, and math. In fact, many critical thinkers have proposed that the U.S. may actually undergo a socio-economic collapse just like ancient Rome and cease to be a superpower. :lolup:

Am I proposing that people paying $450 for an LZR is going to lead to the destruction of the U.S.? Obviously not. But taken in the context of the overall picture of the U.S., this fanatical approach to swimming a little bit faster than someone else gives me (and quite a few others) pause for concern about what’s going on in the psyche of the American people. :doh:

Dolphin 2

craig68
May 29th, 2008, 02:12 PM
Why is paying $450 for a suit any more sports-obsessed than posting to a swimming forum instead of being productive at work? Or enjoying the beautiful California weather? Or any other thing that non-sports-obsessed people do with their time?

chowmi
May 29th, 2008, 02:27 PM
Heehee! What a funny thread! You can never have too many racing suits, just like you can never have too many specialized strollers for your kids.

The FS PRO is like a miracle suit. It really makes you look about 10 lbs lighter which is why I love mine!!! Or maybe it's because I got the zipper back instead of racerback.

I'll also add that this was a total impulse buy the day before nationals! I wanted spare goggles and said if I can fit into a certain target size, and if they have it in black, i'm going to buy it!

I also recommend the colored FSII's. Thumbs up on style. But watch out - they are sized smaller than the standard FSII (black w/grey tone).

I'm buying at least 1 LZR when they come out.

aquaFeisty
May 29th, 2008, 02:40 PM
The FS PRO is like a miracle suit. It really makes you look about 10 lbs lighter which is why I love mine!!! Or maybe it's because I got the zipper back instead of racerback.



Yahoo!!! Michelle has hit upon the #1 reason why masters swimmers (male and female both) like the tech suits!!!

Jonathan, buy whichever suit fits you and your budget best and whichever you prefer. Just make sure you have a backup tight-fitting drag suit at your meet, because these tech suits work best when they're as tight as possible... and the tighter the fit, the more likely you might stick your fingernail through the suit putting it on! :eek:

pwolf66
May 29th, 2008, 02:54 PM
But the fact is for an elite swimmer who's immediate financial future can be won or lost on tenths or even hundredths of seconds, I say more power to them, if they think buying a $500 suit or even a $10,000 suit makes sense for THEM, go for it. It's all about determining your return on investment. And that return does not have to be in money, it can be in happiness, personal satisfaction, bragging rights, what have you.

And by the way, I bought a FS Pro 2 months ago for $50 on Ebay because there was a negative perceived ROI with buying a LZR. Just thought you'd like to know.

Paul

pwolf66
May 29th, 2008, 02:55 PM
Yahoo!!! Michelle has hit upon the #1 reason why masters swimmers (male and female both) like the tech suits!!!


Might be why they are commonly referred to as 'Fat Skins'

mctrusty
May 29th, 2008, 03:28 PM
Yes my opinion IS judgmental – just like any economist will tell you that most Americans have a serious personal debt problem and they had better get a handle on their spending. I chose to own my home and make the mortgage payments instead of spending money on fancy cars and other expensive personal items while many others are still just renters and their net worth is -zero-.


Umm, I know many renters whose net worth is significantly higher than zero. Likewise, there are many people who chose to own their own home whose net worth is deep in the red. In fact, a lot of those people who chose to own their own homes are a big part of the reason that America has a serious debt problem. Not that I'm discounting all of the other forms of credit binging that have gone on...



Furthermore I find it ironically amusing how people are grousing and fuming about the high price of gas (which requires $Billions to drill for and produce) yet they will not hesitate to run out and plunk down $450 for an LZR (which is probably made in China for a few cents on the dollar). So who's the biggest price gouger -Exxon Mobil or Speedo?? :lolup:
Your economist from the first paragraph might point out that both companies are smart in observing the principles of supply and demand.



Furthermore, the U.S. does have an obsession with sports and athletics similar to the Roman Empire and the Gladiators and too much public money is being spent on stadiums to hosting pro-sports teams. In addition, parents are aggressively prodding their children into sports at the expense of reduced academic achievement –just look at the poor test scores in reading, science, and math.
My wife and my mother are both teachers, my wife working a Title I position, and I reject your argument that sports is the reason for reduced academic achievement. A big part of the reason is that parents and kids just don't care. Period. It has nothing to do with sports. I could go on about NCLB, curricula, etc, but the main reason is apathy.

The American public school system is geared toward inclusiveness, which in theory has greater public utility at the expense of overall average testing.



In fact, many critical thinkers have proposed that the U.S. may actually undergo a socio-economic collapse just like ancient Rome and cease to be a superpower. :lolup:
We've all got to go sometime, political entities included. Or, in the words of Maimonidies, a critical thinker in his own time, "This too shall pass".



Am I proposing that people paying $450 for an LZR is going to lead to the destruction of the U.S.? Obviously not –but taken in the context of the overall picture of the U.S., this kind of fanatical approach to swimming a little bit faster than someone else does give me (and quite a few others) pause for concern about what’s going on in the psyche of the American people. :doh:
Oh jeez. I think competing and trying to get faster is a pretty healthy way to spend your time and/or money. In fact, I think it's much healthier than plunking down X amount of dollars each month for your meds, your junk, a shopping spree, or whatever gets you your fix. I'll take being fanatical about swimming over being fanatical about most other things like wasting your time railing against tech suits.

The fact that you managed to tie in the LZR with a whole batch of social issues that you have no real grasp on is a tribute to your own mania. You shouldn't worry so much about the psyche of the American people.

Now I feel dirty.

aztimm
May 29th, 2008, 03:34 PM
As to getting technical suits in the first place. We all have things that we splurge money and/or time on. For me personally, I don't see ever purchasing any swimsuit that is more than $50, but who knows. I do love to swim, but am nowhere near any sort of records, top 10 times, etc. So my tolerance level (both money and time) is limited. As I've said in other threads, I won't spend even an hour to shave down either. I'd love to get swimming back to where the guys at least wore $20-30 suits, but I've accepted that those days are long gone. Personally, my 'splurge' money and time seems to go for travel. I also run, and won't hesitate to spend about $100 for a good pair of running shoes.

Now I am somewhat interested in some of the conversation about the suits. What if you are already at a reasonable weight, what benefit do they give then? Obviously it must be something, as the potential olympians are wearing them, but I thought they gave greater benefit to someone not quite so fit looking. I'm by far not in 100% the best shape I possibly could be, but I'm not bad. I had a near impossible time when shopping for a dress suit a few months ago, as I have a large chest and small waist. I couldn't imagine fitting into a 1-piece swimsuit covering both, and having a comfortable fit. Whenever I have to buy something as a set, there are major alterations to either the jacket, pants, or both. Heck, I even have a hard time with shirts, as ones that fit the chest are too big at the waist and come untucked easily. Do they have all sorts of shapes/sizes of these technical suits for all kinds of bodies? Do they have them customized?

The Fortress
May 29th, 2008, 04:20 PM
From Hofffman:
“Much of this seems incredibly judgmental. Who are you to say that an Average Joe buying a LZR has a serious problem? Maybe some Serious Joes think swimming very fast is very important.

As for fast cars - people have enjoyed them since cars existed. To these people it is not throwing away big $$$.

Are you similarly judgmental about other expensive things people spend their money on? Watches? Electronics? Shoes? Music? Art? Musical instruments?”

Reply From Dolphin 2
Yes my opinion IS judgmental – just like any economist will tell you that most Americans have a serious personal debt problem and they had better get a handle on their spending. I chose to own my home and make the mortgage payments instead of spending money on fancy cars and other expensive personal items while many others are still just renters and their net worth is -zero-.

Furthermore I find it ironically amusing how people are grousing and fuming about the high price of gas (which requires $Billions to drill for and produce) yet they will not hesitate to run out and plunk down $450 for an LZR (which is probably made in China for a few cents on the dollar). So who's the biggest price gouger -Exxon Mobil or Speedo?? :lolup:

Furthermore, the U.S. does have an obsession with sports and athletics similar to the Roman Empire and the Gladiators and too much public money is being spent on stadiums to hosting pro-sports teams. In addition, parents are aggressively prodding their children into sports at the expense of reduced academic achievement –just look at the poor test scores in reading, science, and math. In fact, many critical thinkers have proposed that the U.S. may actually undergo a socio-economic collapse just like ancient Rome and cease to be a superpower. :lolup:

Am I proposing that people paying $450 for an LZR is going to lead to the destruction of the U.S.? Obviously not. But taken in the context of the overall picture of the U.S., this fanatical approach to swimming a little bit faster than someone else gives me (and quite a few others) pause for concern about what’s going on in the psyche of the American people. :doh:

Dolphin 2

Sounds like you disapprove of anyone who spends more money than you and anyone who purchases any item you deem inappropriate. How open-minded and tolerant.

And what can possibly be wrong with wanting to go faster than someone?! That's the point of many sports. And it mimics the real word to some degree. Would you have us all be rec swimmers and noodlers? It doesn't even appear to me that folks are looking for tech suits as the only way to get faster. Most seem pretty interested in technique improvements, how to get stronger, and fine tuning their pool workouts.

My kid are doing just fine in school while simultaneously competing in sports, as I'm sure many others are. It keeps them healthy and organized and provides a social/competitive outlet. What else would they do? Hang out at the mall every day?

The $230 I spent on my FS Pro was completely within my budget.

Dolphin 2
May 29th, 2008, 05:24 PM
Pardon me for “hitting a nerve” with everyone, but the whole idea of people going on a spending binge over the LZR, Fastskin, etc. craze really seems like something I would be reading about in MAD magazine (which is a parody on the almost endless number of idiosyncrasies of American society). I recall Mr. P.T. Barnum’s (one of the founders of the Barnum & Bailey’s Circus) old saying that “There’s a sucker born every minute”.

Reflecting on his words, I can’t help but think that the people at Speedo, Tyr, Nike, etc. are sitting in their corporate offices laughing until their bellies ache over the thought of all the people that are slapping down big bucks and carrying their latest & greatest "techy" swim toys out of the store with a huge grin on their face. By comparison, the suit manufacturers are making all those evil, nasty, price gouging oil company execs look like a bunch of saints!!! :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

By the way, I can’t wait until someone sues the suit makers (like what a bunch of the “I can’t wait to get one” consumers did with Apple and the iPhone debut last year) because they allegedly “ripped off” the first buyers by cutting the price of the LZR in ½ just after two months of it first coming on the market. :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Dolphin 2

Midas
May 29th, 2008, 05:42 PM
Competing is fun and I have to believe it's healthy and natural, given how just about everybody does it in some way or another (whether competing on the sports field, or competing in the job context, competing in the dating world, etc.). In fact, sports are probably a great outlet for our inherent competitive nature. And all sports have expensive equipment associated with them (runners have super expensive shoes, bicyclists have super expensive bikes, etc.) and swimming is no different. I got "paper" suits every year as a kid and in college. These technical suits are just the modern day equivalent. They cost even more because more engineering and science went into them.

Back to the true topic at hand, I own FS Pro Jammers. I bought them "down" a size and have a heck of a time getting into them. This may be due to having rather thick thighs (breaststroker thighs). I didn't find that they gave really at all. As Andy mentions, they are very similar to the paper suits of yesteryear (and you will all remember that those things would rip before they would "give"). I also agree with Andy that you should buy a few different sizes and return the ones that don't fit. I'm sure that's especially true for the full-body suits. I was able to squeeze into those jammers but if I had to pull them over my shoulders, I might have been singing up a few octaves!

Midas
May 29th, 2008, 05:45 PM
By the way, maybe there are sports out there associated with poor academic performance, but I've never known swimming to be one of them. Most of the swimmers I've known (not all, by any stretch) were also very good students. Swimming teaches discipline and the meaning of hard work. I think it has served me very well in my life to have suffered through some truly excruciating training.

hofffam
May 29th, 2008, 06:24 PM
Dolphin 2 - you seem proud you are a mortage owner instead of a renter. In property-precious California, it might be smarter for many people to move to a lower cost area instead of spending $800 per sq. ft. and using interest only loans to buy homes.

They could spend $200 per sq. ft. in Texas and happily pay for their kid's college. Buying a LZR might be a bit easier.

Perhaps you have a silly vice some of us wouldn't approve of. I hope you don't buy Kenny G. recordings because I think no one should ever do that. :lmao:

Pick your poison so to speak. One of the best things about the USA is that we can generally indulge ourselves without harming others. I manage my finances carefully. I doubt I will buy a LZR. Maybe a FS Pro on ebay if I can find a good deal. But first I need a new drag suit to replace me 2 1/2 year old one.

One more thing - I don't think the USA is sports obsessed. If we were - we wouldn't have an obesity problem. Too many children are inactive, except with their thumbs. Too many adults are fat. And they are raising fat children. And considering our country's wealth - we don't perform all the well in many sports against international competition from far smaller, and more sports-obsessed countries.

Chris Stevenson
May 29th, 2008, 06:59 PM
Pardon me for “hitting a nerve” with everyone...

I don't always agree that economics, as a discipline, is as value-free as economists say...but I do think that think that equating consumer preferences with morality is usually a pretty slippery slope. Best not to do it at all.

With some effort, I can even convince myself that not all owners of Hummers are evil people. :)

Buying a LZR (or not) is a pretty harmless thing, all things considered.

Jonathan, the college swimmers at U of Richmond I have talked to all greatly prefer the Pro to the FSII. I have never worn a Pro so I do not speak from direct experience. For myself, I have not found the FSII to have a big impact on my performance (as I've posted here (http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=10238)), but others' mileage clearly differ.

Midas
May 29th, 2008, 09:30 PM
One more thing - I don't think the USA is sports obsessed. If we were - we wouldn't have an obesity problem. Too many children are inactive, except with their thumbs. Too many adults are fat. And they are raising fat children. And considering our country's wealth - we don't perform all the well in many sports against international competition from far smaller, and more sports-obsessed countries.

I think we may be somewhat "professional sports obsessed" but what "first world" country isn't? Professional sports obsession may be the byproduct of not having to worry about survival/war/famine on a daily basis... That isn't necessarily a bad thing...

hofffam
May 29th, 2008, 09:47 PM
I think we may be somewhat "professional sports obsessed" but what "first world" country isn't? Professional sports obsession may be the byproduct of not having to worry about survival/war/famine on a daily basis... That isn't necessarily a bad thing...

Yes - I think you might be correct. But it seems Dolphin 2 wasn't talking about that.

It is remarkable what humans choose to do with their time and money after they achieve a basic quality of life!

JMiller
May 30th, 2008, 12:44 AM
All I wanted to know was which suit was better...
Thanks for the answer to that...

Personally, I enjoy spending cash on swimming, because growing up as a kid it was always a hardship for my parents/family... Honestly, spending money on swimming is one of the only things I really feel good about. Plus, I've never worn a tech suit and I want to go faster, so ya, I'll buy that.
In fact, I work hard in sales so that one day I can re-invest to make swimming more popular, that is what motivates me the most...

swimcat
May 30th, 2008, 09:14 AM
Heehee! What a funny thread! You can never have too many racing suits, just like you can never have too many specialized strollers for your kids.

The FS PRO is like a miracle suit. It really makes you look about 10 lbs lighter which is why I love mine!!! Or maybe it's because I got the zipper back instead of racerback.

I'll also add that this was a total impulse buy the day before nationals! I wanted spare goggles and said if I can fit into a certain target size, and if they have it in black, i'm going to buy it!

I also recommend the colored FSII's. Thumbs up on style. But watch out - they are sized smaller than the standard FSII (black w/grey tone).

I'm buying at least 1 LZR when they come out.

totally agree michelle, i actually was semi comfortable in my fspro and in agony in my tracer lite.:wiggle:

LindsayNB
May 30th, 2008, 09:35 AM
One thought Jonathan, if your target meet is not until next year it is quite likely that the price of the current suits will drop as the new suits become more widely available.

Dolphin 2
May 30th, 2008, 12:02 PM
I think we may be somewhat "professional sports obsessed" but what "first world" country isn't? Professional sports obsession may be the byproduct of not having to worry about survival/war/famine on a daily basis... That isn't necessarily a bad thing...

The U.S. has been a "First World" country in the past, but I seriously doubt if it will continue to be one in the future. The U.S. is relying on imported products (including FastSkins & LZRs) too much and even worse, the country is importing way too many science and engineering professionals instead of developing our own home grown talent. :dedhorse:

While many high schools, colleges, and universities are emotionaly centered around their athletic department, it's quite obvious that many of those participating in sports are getting their academic records "doped" so they can remain in school. :doh:

And other advanced countries are NOT spending anywhere near the time and money on sports and athletics that the U.S. does. From the post about ASU dropping swimming, it appears that the days of big sports spending are quickly becoming a thing of the past.

If you're not worrying about the continued loss of technological and business competitiveness in the U.S. and what may be called a "melt down" of the country as an economic super power, you're living in a world of "ignorant bliss" and the chant should be "Roman Empire here we come". :shakeshead:

Sorry for the bad prognostications, but as the old saying goes "Reality sucks doesn't it?" :rant3:

Happy swimming anyway -

Dolphin 2

hofffam
May 30th, 2008, 04:08 PM
While many high schools, colleges, and universities are emotionaly centered around their athletic department, it's quite obvious that many of those participating in sports are getting their academic records "doped" so they can remain in school. :doh:

And other advanced countries are NOT spending anywhere near the time and money on sports and athletics that the U.S. does. From the post about ASU dropping swimming, it appears that the days of big sports spending are quickly becoming a thing of the past.

Dolphin 2

How do you know these things? Manipulated high school records have existed for a long time - but my anecdotal information (any better than yours?) says many of the abuses have been tamed as the NCAA has reduced rampant recruiting abuses of the past (such as SMU football).

There is a very recent issue with a Kansas basketball player and it looks suspicious. But I think it is increasingly difficult to hide these kinds of things for long. The internet makes it very easy for a rumour to turn into an investigation.

As for what other countries spend on sports....where on earth would you get data on that? Can you show me that per capita the UK, or Japan, or Australia spends less on amateur sports than we do? Or if you want to include professional sports does that mean Italy, the UK, and Germany spend less per capita on soccer than we do on football? Their stadiums are bigger than ours.

How many people quit working for a week when India and Pakistan play cricket?

Do you think Australia spends less on swimming if adjusted for population than the USA? What about Finland vs. the USA for nordic sports?

JMiller
May 30th, 2008, 05:29 PM
Hey Lindsay,

Well I hadn't decided yet... I've been considering a LC meet, possibly in August...


One thought Jonathan, if your target meet is not until next year it is quite likely that the price of the current suits will drop as the new suits become more widely available.

Allen Stark
May 30th, 2008, 10:46 PM
Dolphin 2,most of what you say should be on the NSR threads.My wife and I are both MDs.She and I drive in together in our Prius.We have been in the same home for 19 yr.Whether or not competitive swimming is important to me is my business and not the cause of the decline of civilization.By the way,I have read "The Standard Edition of the Complete Psychological Works of Sigmund Freud"(all 22 volumes) and he would turn over in his grave at your use of "Freudian".(Also the LZR is $550 not $450):dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse:

ande
May 31st, 2008, 12:18 PM
FS 2 or FS Pro
you might want to try the

Blue Seventy PointZero3+ swim skin (http://tinyurl.com/5ku3wa)

I've heard very good things about it
I went to a triathlon shop and looked at one yesterday
it's all rubber over fabric
I really want to test it out
it's much more affordable than the LZR

JMiller
June 1st, 2008, 12:56 PM
That looks like a wet suit... Is it legal for pool races?
Please, let me know what you think if you try it.


FS 2 or FS Pro
you might want to try the

Blue Seventy PointZero3+ swim skin (http://tinyurl.com/5ku3wa)

I've heard very good things about it
I went to a triathlon shop and looked at one yesterday
it's all rubber over fabric
I really want to test it out
it's much more affordable than the LZR

ande
June 1st, 2008, 06:22 PM
the Blue Seventy PointZero3+ swim skin (http://tinyurl.com/5ku3wa)
looks like a wetsuit,
is made by a company that makes wetsuits
but it is fina approved
http://www.blueseventy.com/pointzero3/finaapproval.pdf

Dennis Baker wore one when he went 2:04.68 in the 200 LCM

Roque Santos wore one at USMS SCY nats
http://www.blueseventy.com/pointzero3/

Roque nipped me in the 100 IM
he was in lane 4
I was in lane 6
http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/coverage.php?c=258&id=14300

Roque's 400 IM was truly exceptional
http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/meetsearch.php?c=121996&MeetID=20080501SCNATSY

ande


That looks like a wet suit...
Is it legal for pool races?
Please, let me know what you think if you try it.

Midas
June 2nd, 2008, 02:41 PM
Here's a dumb question: can FS Pros be worn more than once (or more accurately, for more than one meet)? I think I've seen some people say that, like the paper suits of yester year, they cannot. (I'm mostly hearing that in the context of the new LZRs which are made in part from the same materials as the FS Pros.)

Ande, any thoughts?

Allen Stark
June 2nd, 2008, 10:16 PM
I have heard 5 swims,more if you re-waterproof them yourself.

The Fortress
June 2nd, 2008, 10:49 PM
5 swims for the Pro?! Geez. I guess I remember (S)he-Man saying they last for 5 minutes. I thought mine was fine for about 5 meets. I still get the compression from it, so I'd wear it again at an in season meet. But it's not as slippery.

How do you re-waterproof them yourself?

ande
June 2nd, 2008, 11:03 PM
FS PRO's can be worn for more than one meet
I'm not sure how many meet's they'll last
part of the LZR's seem to be the same fabric as PRO's


Here's a dumb question: can FS Pros be worn more than once (or more accurately, for more than one meet)? I think I've seen some people say that, like the paper suits of yester year, they cannot. (I'm mostly hearing that in the context of the new LZRs which are made in part from the same materials as the FS Pros.)

Ande, any thoughts?

SwimStud
June 2nd, 2008, 11:32 PM
I think we may be somewhat "professional sports obsessed" but what "first world" country isn't? Professional sports obsession may be the byproduct of not having to worry about survival/war/famine on a daily basis... That isn't necessarily a bad thing...

Aye, I took Religion at a catholic university; the class was taught by a former priest and Oxbridge educated prof. In discussing British football with him, I said "It's like a religion..." he rebuked "It IS religion..."

So perhaps tossing money away on silly body suits is a modern day version of some sort of sacrifice to the deity of your choice.

Me? I would rather spend that money on something so less fleeting, and I'd rather see swimming back to a pair of speedos, goggles and cap (optional). That said, each to their own. I've heard the golf club/running shoe analogy but it seems you still get more yardage from them vs a superhero suit.

Yeah and it wouldn't make a difference to my times anyhow so it's a waste from my POV (thought I'd point that out before some numpty does).

As for the economic turmoil: I'd rather blame the govts of the world at large for their complicity in burying, supressing or not researching alternative energy to this point...it's no shocker that oil will run out.

Secondly the laws of supply and demand that have brought the country to it's knees had a hand in the rise of the sub prime disaster. House prices going up in leaps and bounds, banks prepared to offer mortgages leveraged way past sanity levels, and of course the king of them all, the 5 year ARM with a low, low introductory rate!

Add into the mixture the volatility creeping into every alternative investment from hedge funds trying to find value as the dollar sank faster than Geek in a 200 yard breaststroke race, and we are off to the virtual commodity price gouge.

In short, people will spend and save as they are inclined. It's not the fault of every person who purchased an indulgent gizmo. The muck can be shovelled around fairly evenly.

:cane:

ALM
June 3rd, 2008, 12:40 AM
(thought I'd point that out before some numpty does).


Ahh, I believe I have a new favorite word.... "numpty".

Must go try it out on the Significant Other right now. It may not register, though, as he's engrossed in the 3rd overtime of the hockey game...

Glider
June 3rd, 2008, 12:52 AM
Go Penguins, they pulled it out! Back to the 'burgh for game 6 :drink:


Ahh, I believe I have a new favorite word.... "numpty".

Must go try it out on the Significant Other right now. It may not register, though, as he's engrossed in the 3rd overtime of the hockey game...

JMiller
June 3rd, 2008, 05:01 AM
I have read "The Standard Edition of the Complete Psychological Works of Sigmund Freud"(all 22 volumes)

Whoa, the complete work of Sigmund Freud, that's impressive... I was wondering then, what does the phrase, "A Freudian slip." mean? I've heard it before, but didn't understand it...

SwimStud
June 3rd, 2008, 08:13 AM
Ahh, I believe I have a new favorite word.... "numpty".



Yes saying "numpty" has a good feel to it, doesn't it?

I challenge you to use it about town and note how many folks think you're complimenting them, insulting them or just look puzzled!
;)

JMiller
June 4th, 2008, 08:07 PM
That was a good race to watch Ande...


Roque nipped me in the 100 IM
he was in lane 4
I was in lane 6
http://www.flocasts.org/floswimming/coverage.php?c=258&id=14300

jim clemmons
June 4th, 2008, 08:24 PM
I have heard 5 swims,more if you re-waterproof them yourself.


5 swims for the Pro?! Geez. I guess I remember (S)he-Man saying they last for 5 minutes. I thought mine was fine for about 5 meets. I still get the compression from it, so I'd wear it again at an in season meet. But it's not as slippery.


Wasn't that what "they" were saying about the FSI's and FSII's when they arrived on the scene? A half-dozen or so swims and you'll need a replacement.

I found that if you treat them nicely, the compression aspect will last a year'ish although they do lose the waterproofing.

Just remember to watch out where you sit while wearing them 'cause the part you don't see? others do! :help:

Allen Stark
June 4th, 2008, 08:38 PM
Whoa, the complete work of Sigmund Freud, that's impressive... I was wondering then, what does the phrase, "A Freudian slip." mean? I've heard it before, but didn't understand it...

A Freudian slip,is a slip of the tongue with unconscious meaning,such as calling your wife by an ex girl friends name(that has unconscious meaning as you'll be unconscious for awhile there after.) According to Freud,all slips have unconscious meaning.

Allen Stark
June 4th, 2008, 08:41 PM
Anyone know about the Blue Seventy point zero3.It looks like it may be about as fast as the LZR,it's available now,and it looks like it may last longer.

craig68
June 4th, 2008, 09:49 PM
I appreciate JMiller posting this thread, as I was going to ask the same thing. Although the thread evolved into a commentary on the state of the world and the tech suit's roll in it, there were a few helpful responses. Would those of you with experience with a couple of different suits kindly share your insights? I'm considering FS II and FS PRO leggings. Do some folks prefer the FS II, even though the FS PRO is a newer model - and presumably meant to be better or faster? I'm surprise to see little price difference between them. Also, any experience with Nike Hydra or Tyr Fusion? Thanks!

imspoiled
June 5th, 2008, 01:00 PM
I appreciate JMiller posting this thread, as I was going to ask the same thing. Although the thread evolved into a commentary on the state of the world and the tech suit's roll in it, there were a few helpful responses. Would those of you with experience with a couple of different suits kindly share your insights? I'm considering FS II and FS PRO leggings. Do some folks prefer the FS II, even though the FS PRO is a newer model - and presumably meant to be better or faster? I'm surprise to see little price difference between them. Also, any experience with Nike Hydra or Tyr Fusion? Thanks!

Craig-
All my experience is with the Speedo suits. I like the PRO better than the FSII. The FSII was (is) great, but it tends to start feeling heavy after the waterproofing wears out and during swims longer than a 500. The PRO stays light and doesn't feel like its weighing me down. I've not experienced the waterproofing wear off my pro yet. I've had them for a little over a year (one long leg, one short). Worn both of them through at least 4 big meets--multiple days, multiple events.

The only problem with the PRO is it's not as forgiving as the FSII. It can tear if not handled properly, and it does not stretch out the way the FSII does. The stretch has also been a positive though, as it seems to retain its shape nicely.

that's my :2cents:

craig68
June 5th, 2008, 03:33 PM
Imspoiled, that was awesome feedback! Thank you very much. I just ordered a pair of PRO leggings. I don't swim long races, but it sounds like I'll be able to do some quick pre-race warm-ups in them without worrying about them getting water logged.

ande
June 5th, 2008, 04:13 PM
here's my scy 50 Backstroke times from recent workouts
while wearing various tech suits:

Tuesday May 27nd, 2008 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=134931&postcount=2223) 23.6 FS II Legs

Thursday May 29th, 2008 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=135268&postcount=2225) 23.6 FS II Hineck

Saturday May 31st, 2008 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=135544&postcount=2234) 23.3 PRO Legs

Wednesday June 4th, 2008 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=135847&postcount=2252) 23.7 FS II Legs


I swam my fastest recent 50 time in PRO legs by 0.3
The pro material is thinner.
haven't done any fast practice swims in my PRO Hineck,

I've comvered most details about which suit suits you at:
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449&postcount=732

I haven't tested an LZR hineck.

Some of the most important factors are:
How fast you are in the suit,
How many times you can use each suit, and
How easy the suit is to damage when putting on and taking off

Several friends have poked holes in brand their new PRO's.

The Blue Seventy Suits arrived today and I'm going to try them on.

wish me luck,

Ande

Midas
June 6th, 2008, 06:50 PM
here's my scy 50 Backstroke times from recent workouts
while wearing various tech suits:

Tuesday May 27nd, 2008 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=134931&postcount=2223) 23.6 FS II Legs

Thursday May 29th, 2008 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=135268&postcount=2225) 23.6 FS II Hineck

Saturday May 31st, 2008 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=135544&postcount=2234) 23.3 PRO Legs

Wednesday June 4th, 2008 (http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=135847&postcount=2252) 23.7 FS II Legs


I swam my fastest recent 50 time in PRO legs by 0.3
The pro material is thinner.
haven't done any fast practice swims in my PRO Hineck,

I've comvered most details about which suit suits you at:
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449&postcount=732

I haven't tested an LZR hineck.

Some of the most important factors are:
How fast you are in the suit,
How many times you can use each suit, and
How easy the suit is to damage when putting on and taking off

Several friends have poked holes in brand their new PRO's.

The Blue Seventy Suits arrived today and I'm going to try them on.

wish me luck,

Ande

I'd wish you luck but considering your 50 backstroke times IN PRACTICE times (regardless of which suit you wear) beat my personal best 50 freestyle times (regardless of which suit I wear), I don't think you need it! :p

Thanks for posting your experiences with the two suits. I'd suggest a second performance in the FS Pro legs to confirm the first wasn't just a aberrantly fast day. Were all of the other conditions the same/similar (were you possibly more tired after a harder workout on one of the days, did you have competition (and or the same competition) on each day, etc.)? Inquiring minds want to know!

swimcat
June 7th, 2008, 03:24 PM
i wore my fspro today for a small local meet. it was the 4th swim in it. it already has stretched. my times were horrendous:frustrated: so i think i will go with it's the swimmer not the suit credo. however, i do prefer the fspro to the fs!!.