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jordangregory
May 28th, 2008, 02:52 PM
With the ability to do a dolphin kick now along with the pulldown, what is the proper timing. I have been out of swimming for a while, and when I competed, we couldn't use the dolphin kick at all.

smontanaro
May 28th, 2008, 03:16 PM
I don't know what the proper timing is of the dolphin kick from the standpoint of maximizing its effect. I believe it has to be completed during or before the pulldown is finished.

There was some discussion here a week or so ago (probably in the "my SDK sucks!" thread) where someone mentioned that it's important to push on the knee flexion as well as the extension part of the kick. This seemed to help me with free and back pullouts (I basically don't do fly - see my avatar). I tried it during a breast pulldown, and I think it results in an illegal kick. If I do it as just extension, then there is a bit of "echo" back toward flexion once my knees are fully extended. No problem, but that echo isn't really propulsive. If I flex then extend I think I can get more power, but there's still that "echo" which would make the SDK illegal. Correct?

Skip

pwolf66
May 28th, 2008, 03:24 PM
Jordan,

The most popular (note: popular, everyone is slightly different so what works for one might not work for you) is is start the dolphin kick as the hands reach the lower ribcage on the pull.

Paul

jordangregory
May 28th, 2008, 04:36 PM
I have found it is natural to do the dolphin kick as my hands reach the lower ribcage. It just feels right. But when I think about it, something seems wrong. To do the kick at this time, the streamline is broken, at a time you are going at max speed.

Allen Stark
May 28th, 2008, 11:39 PM
Start by extending at the waist just before the pull down to give extra ROM.Then just let the kick flow as an undulation in time to the arms in the pull down.Maximum thrust is about when arms are at ribcage.
Skip,I'm not sure you are illegal.One downward dolphin kick is allowed,there is no mention of an upward kick in the rules at that point as it could be part of the recovery.

coachchris
May 29th, 2008, 08:16 AM
With the ability to do a dolphin kick now along with the pulldown, what is the proper timing. I have been out of swimming for a while, and when I competed, we couldn't use the dolphin kick at all.

Greg, if you have access to back issues of USMS SWIMMER, take a look at the May/June 2007 issue. There's a nice pictorial in there that describes the mechanics and timing of the post-2005 breaststroke pullout, as well as some drills to help improve your pullouts. If you don't have access to any back issues of the magazine, shoot an email to chriscolburn AT usms DOT org and I can provide you with a link to a copy of the article.

swimcat
May 30th, 2008, 09:17 AM
about using a dolphin kick on pull out. make it a habit all the time in practice. i started using this a while ago but when i race i noticed if it's a 50 consistently but i am not consistent on 100 br or 4ooim bs leg.

jordangregory
May 30th, 2008, 08:33 PM
Does anyone know if the kick dolphin kick is decreasing the time for 50's or 100's in SCY

Allen Stark
May 30th, 2008, 09:10 PM
about using a dolphin kick on pull out. make it a habit all the time in practice. i started using this a while ago but when i race i noticed if it's a 50 consistently but i am not consistent on 100 br or 4ooim bs leg.

Yes,always do it.Also be sure and practice it on SCY 200 BRs in practice.I find I go farther and there for stay underwater longer.The first couple of meets after the rule change I found myself doing the dreaded"lift your head and gasp"breakout as I wasn't ready for staying underwater longer.
To answer the other question,I don't have numbers,but pretty much everyone agrees it is a little faster.

cowsvils
May 30th, 2008, 09:44 PM
It is a pretty natural thing where it is, as the others have said. I start my dolphin kick actually as my hands separate with an upward kick and finish as my hands are right around my rib cage (about the same time Kitajima does his), I've found that this gets me a little farther than placing it with the hands at the ribcage, might be because of the streamline.

SwimStud
May 31st, 2008, 01:35 AM
Greg, if you have access to back issues of USMS SWIMMER, take a look at the May/June 2007 issue. There's a nice pictorial in there that describes the mechanics and timing of the post-2005 breaststroke pullout, as well as some drills to help improve your pullouts. If you don't have access to any back issues of the magazine, shoot an email to chriscolburn AT usms DOT org and I can provide you with a link to a copy of the article.

I also learned the "old way" and had to adapt, but I was going to refer to this article, as a good photo-story type layout you can follow.

I've found that for me a straight back over the barrel pull, continuing to press the water until I finish with my hands coming together over my groin area as I go into the kick has helped my propulsion.

I'm just an average swimmer, and I don't know you're experience so it may not work best for you. Tinker with it and find your best pattern and timing.

Rykno
June 1st, 2008, 02:13 PM
Start by extending at the waist just before the pull down to give extra ROM.Then just let the kick flow as an undulation in time to the arms in the pull down.Maximum thrust is about when arms are at ribcage.

that's pretty much what I do. I try to get my whole body into a wave motion. starting when my hands start to pull down.

someone asked if it effects times. not sure if it effected standards, but if you watch two swimmer race where one has a much better stroke, but doesn't have an affective pulldown. they will spend most of the race playing catch up. I have seen swimmer so fast between the flags, but slow turns and no distance off the wall loses them 0.5-2.0 for 50-100 races.

jordangregory
June 1st, 2008, 05:27 PM
anyone do their dolphin kick after the hands are totally done with the pulldown?

Allen Stark
June 1st, 2008, 06:26 PM
I have played with it,but for me it seems slower.Also,if you have any leg movement during the pulldown,the ref will think that was your legal dolphin kick and the late one you purposely put in will DQ you.

jordangregory
June 1st, 2008, 06:32 PM
Good point about the DQ thing. I have just been playing around with the timing, and honestly, I don't think the dolphin kick is getting me any farther if I do it in rhythm with the pulldown.

cowsvils
June 1st, 2008, 11:06 PM
Try kicking first and then pulling, a couple of coaches said they played around with it on the old TF discussion and it was quicker.
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coFvzTXpvgc

Rykno
June 2nd, 2008, 05:53 AM
it was hard to tell from the angle, but it looked like he lost ground on the turn.

pwolf66
June 2nd, 2008, 06:41 AM
Try kicking first and then pulling, a couple of coaches said they played around with it on the old TF discussion and it was quicker.
see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coFvzTXpvgc

Except that this, by rule, is considered an illegal technique. USA Swimming rule 101.3 (taken from the FINA rules) states

"Kick - After the start and each turn, a single downward butterfly kick FOLLOWED by a breaststroke kick is permitted"

Now, there may be wriggle room in the meaning of 'followed' as in sometime after, the fact of the matter that in this case, it should be the next independent action taken.

When I ref, this is the definition that I brief and when I stroke and turn that is the definition that I use. I have email USA swimming and FINA numerous times asking them to just add the word 'immediately' just before 'followed' in the wording or to alter the wording in such a way as it can only be interpreted in this manner, or to change so that the 'single butterfly kick must coincide with or immediately follow the arm pull'

But so far, in the last 2 years I have heard nothing back and have seen no changes.

Paul

Midas
June 2nd, 2008, 01:50 PM
it was hard to tell from the angle, but it looked like he lost ground on the turn.

I think he lost the ground on his last (long) stroke into the wall whereas Kitijima had his last stroke timed better.

Midas
June 2nd, 2008, 02:12 PM
Except that this, by rule, is considered an illegal technique. USA Swimming rule 101.3 (taken from the FINA rules) states

"Kick - After the start and each turn, a single downward butterfly kick FOLLOWED by a breaststroke kick is permitted"

Now, there may be wriggle room in the meaning of 'followed' as in sometime after, the fact of the matter that in this case, it should be the next independent action taken.

When I ref, this is the definition that I brief and when I stroke and turn that is the definition that I use. I have email USA swimming and FINA numerous times asking them to just add the word 'immediately' just before 'followed' in the wording or to alter the wording in such a way as it can only be interpreted in this manner, or to change so that the 'single butterfly kick must coincide with or immediately follow the arm pull'

But so far, in the last 2 years I have heard nothing back and have seen no changes.

Paul

Well, that would be bad... I wonder if the USAS/FINA rules are worded differently?

Here's the USAS Rule:

Kick — After the start and each turn, a single butterfly kick, which must be followed by a breaststroke kick, is permitted during or at the completion of the first arm pull. Following which, all movements of the legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without alternating movement.

That seems pretty similar to the USMS standard, so it comes down, as you say, to a matter of interpretation. I want to try kicking first to see what it does. I feel like a lot of the power of the butterfly kick is lost in the power of the pulldown so it's probably beneficial to do the butterfly kick first, if legal.

pwolf66
June 2nd, 2008, 02:25 PM
Kick — After the start and each turn, a single butterfly kick, which must be followed by a breaststroke kick, is permitted during or at the completion of the first arm pull. Following which, all movements of the legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without alternating movement.


Then Hansen would have definately deeked if the S&T caught it at least under the new rule wording. And that's the problem. 95+% of S&T judges would not have been able to clearly see that the kick was started before the arm pull was even initiated.

Hmm, they have updated the wording for 2008 as the 2007 version that I have has different verbiage.

Paul

Midas
June 2nd, 2008, 02:37 PM
Then Hansen would have definately deeked if the S&T caught it at least under the new rule wording. And that's the problem. 95+% of S&T judges would not have been able to clearly see that the kick was started before the arm pull was even initiated.

Hmm, they have updated the wording for 2008 as the 2007 version that I have has different verbiage.

Paul

On second read, it does say that the kick must be completed "during or at the completion of the first arm pull". If the kick occurs BEFORE the arm pull begins, then it appears to be a violation. I'm with you. I'll stick with doing the kick so that it completes around the same time as my pulldown completes.

geochuck
June 2nd, 2008, 08:09 PM
I never have to worry about being disqualified for dolphin kicking in a breaststroke race. I just do not swim breaststroke. It is for romantics.:canada::canada::canada:

Allen Stark
June 2nd, 2008, 08:25 PM
It is my understanding that according to to FINA rule the dolphin kick could be before the pulldown,but the official USA S and USMS interpretation does not allow it.

Allen Stark
December 30th, 2008, 11:30 PM
I am resurrecting this thread since the way the rule is interpreted has changed.I was playing around with the early dolphin kick(at the hand separation,before the pulldown.)I think I was going farther,but I am not sure I was faster.I am also worried about a DQ if I do the early kick and then unconsciously add a second one(at the point I have been practicing since the last rule change.)I am also not sure that I want to be underwater longer on that last turn of the 200 BR.Anyone else playing with it and what are you learning?

jordangregory
December 31st, 2008, 08:55 AM
I have been playing with the dolphin kick for a while, and here is what I think:
1. doing the dolphin kick in the middle of the pull down, when at max velocity, breaks streamline and is counter productive.
2. if the dolphin kick must be done at some point during the pull down, not before or after, it should be done at the point at which the pull down is contributing very little or not at all to forward motion.
3. I have found that if I do the dolphin kick just as my hands start to move laterally out of the streamline position, I can remove the dead spot in the pull down. I am now dolphin kicking as my hands are separating from a streamline position. It takes a moment to get my hands into the catch positions, and this seems like the perfect time to do the dolphin kick. I can not take my time getting my hands into the catch position. The pull down may be a bit longer, but we move faster underwater anyway.

EllenT
December 31st, 2008, 10:01 AM
My issue is getting my hands back up after my full pull down and dolphin kick--I think I come to a complete stop when pulling my hands and arms back up to begin my first breast pull and break the surface of the water. I try to keep my hands and arms pushed under my body to decrease drag, of course, I add my first breast kick to keep from completely stopping, but it still seems like I am almost coming to a complete stopr. I was wondering what others did in this stage of the underwater pull out.

pwolf66
December 31st, 2008, 02:00 PM
My issue is getting my hands back up after my full pull down and dolphin kick--I think I come to a complete stop when pulling my hands and arms back up to begin my first breast pull and break the surface of the water. I try to keep my hands and arms pushed under my body to decrease drag, of course, I add my first breast kick to keep from completely stopping, but it still seems like I am almost coming to a complete stopr. I was wondering what others did in this stage of the underwater pull out.

Ellen,

The secret here is is to have the palms of your hands lightly drag across your thighs and torso as you recover them. Next time in the pool just work pullouts and really focus on lightly dragging your palms as you recover.

aztimm
December 31st, 2008, 02:51 PM
My issue is getting my hands back up after my full pull down and dolphin kick--I think I come to a complete stop when pulling my hands and arms back up to begin my first breast pull and break the surface of the water. I try to keep my hands and arms pushed under my body to decrease drag, of course, I add my first breast kick to keep from completely stopping, but it still seems like I am almost coming to a complete stopr. I was wondering what others did in this stage of the underwater pull out.

My coach worked with me on this recently, as he was watching and told me that it looked like I was coming to a complete stop. Note that I don't do the dolphin kick, so I don't know how that fits in.

Anyway, when you get to hands fully extended, you bring your hands together (he told me almost like I'm praying or some yoga stance, yet not quite touching), and pull them up quickly very close to your body. The first few times I did this, they brushed against my crotch and torso, but after a few tries I managed to get close enough yet not brushing. I started to really feel the push of the water/bubbles against my body, was a strange feeling at first but I got used to it. Evidently, by dragging them close to your body, it gives them less drag against the water.

Since I incorporated this change, it took 1-2 sec off of my 100 breast in workouts.

ViveBene
December 31st, 2008, 02:55 PM
Here's a slo-mo underwater 9-second video of Kitajima in the BR turn. The video stops before the pullout, so doesn't address the question, but I found it instructive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u58OcRTCroc&feature=related

Athens 2004 Olympics Women's 200m BR final: very clear underwater image of swimmers doing the pullout recovery (after initial dive) with palms-to-body technique described by Paul. The first turn also has an underwater view, but only one swimmer is doing the pullout in camera range; it's still clear. I didn't watch further (Amanda Beard and Leisel Jones are swimming):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_881EgrjHdw&feature=related

I'll look for a few more tonight.
I slow because I am too deep when it's time to start stroking for real.

isobel
January 1st, 2009, 09:31 PM
I got DQ'd for doing dolphin kick just as I was starting to move my hands back toward my feet (I think I was pretty much in streamline). I had always done the kick then, and at Worlds in Stanford was not DQ'd, but at USMS meet was.

My coach said he felt the most forceful place to dolphin kick is when your arms are at your hips, but I like doing it earlier. I just need to remember not to be in streamline. Though not very clear, I think USMS rules require that your hands have started to pull before the dolphin kick.

Allen Stark
January 2nd, 2009, 01:03 AM
I don't think USMS has changed it's interpretation officially yet,but USA-S just did to define the start of the pull as any lateral or backward movement of the hands.In other words if you separate your hands the pull has started.

Midas
January 2nd, 2009, 02:21 PM
Pacific Masters, at least, seems amenable to the new interpretation. The following is from the PMS January 1 update e-mail:


BREASTSTROKE INTERPRETATION
From USA Swimming


"...we have been informed that FINA's interpretation is now different from our previous understanding of what constitutes the beginning of the first arm pull. In order for our interpretation to conform to that used by FINA, the following interpretation is being made, effective immediately.

For purposes of Article 101.2.3, as it relates to what constitutes the initiation of the first arm pull and the allowed single downward butterfly kick, the following applies:

After the start and after each turn, any lateral or downward movement of the hands or arms is considered to be the initiation of the first arm pull. "


I, for one, am a happy camper!

pwolf66
January 2nd, 2009, 08:29 PM
and once again FINA has opened a massive Can-O-Worms(tm), before the judgement portion had been removed from the rulling by having the kick occurring AFTER the initiation of the arm stroke, where that had been ruled as the start of the hands moving towards the feet. Now it's hand lateral and/or downward movement of the hands and/or arms. Trained officials are taught to look at the hands first and now they have to look at the hands, lower arms, elbows AND upper arms all at the same time?

Yeah, nice job FINA. Way to 'simplify' that rule. Sorry, this one should have been left alone as it's orginal intention (other than the Kitajima Effect) was to eliminate the judgement call with regards to the hip and leg movement during very strong pull downs. And now that's back in the mix because swimmers will kick first, then complete the pull and in doing so, we will be RIGHT back where we were before this rule came out, wondering it that undulation of hips and legs was as a result of the pull or a seperate kick.

Kathy Casey
January 4th, 2009, 11:26 PM
Just as a point of additional information, the following has been sent to all LMSC Chairmen, Editors, Webmasters, club contacts and coaches in an effort to get it to as many USMS members as possible. The complete notice which includes information on the backstroke turn (no change in interpretation) and how to run dual-sanctioned meets with USA Swimming will be posted on the discussion forum with the Rules Corners. It will also be posted on the USMS web site news.


BREASTSTROKE

USA Swimming has issued an updated interpretation of the initiation of the breaststroke arm pull to conform to the FINA interpretation. USMS Swimming Rules: Part 1 of the USMS Rule Book are based in part upon article 101, “Individual Strokes and Relays”, of the USA Swimming Technical Rules which includes the breaststroke. The updated interpretation will apply to USMS competition (USMS article 101.2.3). See the following text published by Bruce Stratton, Chair of the USA Swimming Rules & Regulations Committee, December 8, 2008:

Text from USA Swimming:“In 2005, FINA made changes to the technical rules for breaststroke which allowed a single downward butterfly kick during or at the end of the first arm pull after the start and after each turn. As required by USA Swimming Rules, we changed our technical rules for the breaststroke to conform to the changes made by FINA.

During the time since the change, there has been much confusion about what constitutes the beginning of the first arm pull. Based upon the (USA-S) Rules & Regulations Committee understanding of FINA’s interpretation and actual practice in international competition, our guidance has been that the mere separation of the hands or arms does not necessarily constitute the beginning of the first arm pull.

However, we have been informed that FINA’s interpretation is now different from our previous understanding of what constitutes the beginning of the first arm pull. In order for our interpretation to conform to that used by FINA, the following interpretation is being made, effective immediately.

For purposes of Article 101.2.3, as it relates to what constitutes the initiation of the first arm pull and the allowed single downward butterfly kick, the following applies:

After the start and after each turn, any lateral or downward movement of the hands or arms is considered to be the initiation of the first arm pull.
Here ends the text from USA Swimming.

Kathy Casey, Chair
USMS Rules Committee
rules@usms.org

Midas
January 5th, 2009, 12:56 PM
Kathy, do USMS judges follow the USAS rules/interpretations? In other words, is doing the butterfly kick at the initiation of the pulldown (as described in the USAS interpretation) now legal is USMS meets?