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Blackbeard's Peg
June 6th, 2008, 11:41 PM
It seems to me like the swimsuit situation has gotten a bit out of hand. Prices are high; LZRs are unavailable; swimskins are legal for USMS pool meets... the list continues.

With the fabrics, I think we can all agree neoprene should remain illegal for pool meets. But beyond that, who's to say what is and what isn't? It will be tough with all the new technology, and as we're seeing today with Speedo and BlueSeventy being FINA sponsors, it will be tough to knock the gift horse in the mouth.

Most of these new suits are body suits. Why not try to limit the effect a suit has on a performance by limiting the amount of suit that can affect performance? It is a stretch to get back to "briefs" and "recordbreakers," as already, women have a fabric advantage. But why not put a limit on the total amount of fabric that can be used, or the total amount of acceptable body coverage?

Small step to take, and in the end, to make the genders fair, we probably wouldn't lose much suit. But I think it is rediculous to see people completely covered at the pool. Their swims should be all about them - not what they and their suit can accomplish.

ande
June 7th, 2008, 12:16 AM
cats out of the bag

world records have already been broken by swimmers wearing tech suits

tech suits have been around for since 1992

good luck getting the cat back in the bag

ande

SwimStud
June 7th, 2008, 12:17 AM
cats out of the bag

world records have already been broken by swimmers wearing tech suits

tech suits have been around for since 1992

good luck getting the cat back in the bag

ande

time for an asterisk ?

*

PArob83
June 7th, 2008, 05:18 AM
well one way people can respond is with their choices, I personally only swim in the classic brief, never liked having that much material, besides i dont like the adventure of putting it/them on.

CreamPuff
June 7th, 2008, 06:01 AM
Ha! Guess I'll switch to the brief too. Oh wait. I can't. Unless I swim topless.

The Fortress
June 7th, 2008, 12:52 PM
I love you, Muppet, but this is the WORST idea ever. Regulating what type of suit people wear?!?! (Could only be proposed by fans of the brief/recordbreaker.) We'd have to regulate how many massages Smith gets too, since those are performance enhancing. And we'd have to ban swimming with kids' teams, as that is performance enhancing.

Pandora's box is open and the world is now filled with evil ...

Why is this such a moral issue? It's a sport and we're supposed to go fast and faster.

FindingMyInnerFish
June 7th, 2008, 01:33 PM
When does an innovation become an unfair advantage?

To compare this to running: Consider that some sprinters (in track) have adopted a full-body suit to reduce drag and wind resistance. And who would show up at the Olympics in track spikes made in, say, 1950, 1980, or even 2000? The innovations in equipment make for faster times and world records. No one even heard of altitude tents when Roger Bannister and Emil Zatopek competed.

But the USATF drew the line at shoes with springs:
http://www.american-trackandfield.com/news/spirashoesMar04.html

But why ban these shoes and not, for instance the Nike air cushion when that was first developed?

I don't envy those having to make the decisions on matters like this.

The Fortress
June 7th, 2008, 04:57 PM
When does an innovation become an unfair advantage?

To compare this to running: Consider that some sprinters (in track) have adopted a full-body suit to reduce drag and wind resistance. And who would show up at the Olympics in track spikes made in, say, 1950, 1980, or even 2000? The innovations in equipment make for faster times and world records. No one even heard of altitude tents when Roger Bannister and Emil Zatopek competed.

But the USATF drew the line at shoes with springs:
http://www.american-trackandfield.com/news/spirashoesMar04.html

But why ban these shoes and not, for instance the Nike air cushion when that was first developed?

I don't envy those having to make the decisions on matters like this.

Compression is not equivalent to springs. Neoprene may be.

hofffam
June 8th, 2008, 12:50 AM
Neoprene is just synthetic rubber. It isn't always a flotation substance like a wetsuit.

No way you can simply say no neoprene. Other super suits may have performance like the LZR without neoprene.

Jazz Hands
June 8th, 2008, 12:31 PM
Muppet, I really wish this would happen. The suit manufacturers are too close to FINA and the other organizations, though. Everyone knows that USA Swimming is just a front for Speedo.

The full-body suits just seem silly to me. They are expensive, uncomfortable and ugly. At a meet, I would prefer to think about my races, not my suit.

thewookiee
June 8th, 2008, 07:29 PM
I have never cared much for briefs. I like the suits that cover shoulders down to ankle. I find them to be comfortable. Do they help? Probably somewhat but not as much as many people would like to think.

If the athlete doesn't do the training, they won't get the results. People swim to forget that the suits can't do the swimming. The person inside does.

So, if you don't like the bodysuits, don't buy em. But don't try to get them banned for the rest of us that do like wearing them. Leave it up to the individual to chose what suit..classic,jammer, etc, they want to wear.

blainesapprentice
June 8th, 2008, 08:10 PM
I am guilty of having worn technical suits including the full legs and body (no arm coverage) suit...and yeah, I have swam fast times in them without a doubt, but I was also shaved and tapered.

I only started wearing these suits when it seemed that every other person in my races/heats were wearing them as well.

I can honestly say that I don't feel as good about my swims/times when wearing a technical suit as I do when I accomplish similarly good swims in a regular old recordbreaker style suit...

I feel like suits are offering too much gains that aren't natural--we wouldn't swim some of the times we do necessarily without the suits we're wearing. While some might argue thats a problem across all sports, I don't think running shoes and the innovations in spikes and such are really as big of a deal....yes running suits that eliminate drag...I think thats a little too far as well.

I realize however that it would take a major overhaul of the entire swimming organizations in order to go back to the days of swimming in real swim suits rather than laser fused seamless body suits.

The Fortress
June 9th, 2008, 09:38 AM
I realize however that it would take a major overhaul of the entire swimming organizations in order to go back to the days of swimming in real swim suits rather than laser fused seamless body suits.

Bodysuits are real suits.

What's so good about the old days? I don't want to go back to penny loafers and huge shoulder pads. Why should I wear a suit from circa 1960? Why is that better or more real? Why do people feel "guilty" in bodysuits and morally superior in tanks and briefs? Guilty?!?! Not comprehending that at all. Let everyone wear what they want to wear as long as it's legal.

I completely agree with Wookiee's post. Plus, If you haven't trained properly, no suit is going to swim the race for you. If I hopped in the pool right now with my Pro, I'd suck. My next meet I'm planning on wearing my old Pro with no water repellancy because I just like it better than tanks. Not a lot of advantage from wearing an old suit. I just prefer it to racing in a tank.

Chris Stevenson
June 9th, 2008, 12:12 PM
I am sympathetic to the proposal partly because I do worry what expensive, short-lived and fragile tech suits do to the sport at the age group level. (As an aside, I have hope for the swimskins, I've examined some at the local tri store and they seem to me far sturdier than the fastskins).

In terms of impact on performance, perhaps a useful parallel would be changes in the rules in backstroke (allowing no-touch flip turns) and breaststroke that improved speed. I'm much more familiar with backstroke, of course...when the rule was passed, my times immediately dropped significantly; I once estimated that it was almost half a second per turn. (And at the end of a 200, when tired...those old turns took a LOT more effort!) Records fell, everyone's expectations had to undergo some modification and then life went on.

It can be argued that the tech suits are a little different since doing a different turn or stroke is (a) free and (b) a skill that the swimmer has to master, not something that depends on someone else (like Speedo or NASA engineers).

No question about the first part, but swimming with these suits also demands some changes in behavior and skill on the part of the swimmer. It isn't as much fun to learn, IMO, but what can you do, life isn't always perfect.

tjburk
June 9th, 2008, 12:17 PM
Ha! Guess I'll switch to the brief too. Oh wait. I can't. Unless I swim topless.

Here, here.....I vote for this unilaterally and unanimously........Briefs for all swimmers from now on!!!!!!!!:applaud::woot::groovy::thhbbb:

Jazz Hands
June 9th, 2008, 12:25 PM
Why do people feel "guilty" in bodysuits and morally superior in tanks and briefs? Guilty?!?! Not comprehending that at all. Let everyone wear what they want to wear as long as it's legal.

It's turning a financial advantage into a competitive advantage.

Dolphin 2
June 9th, 2008, 12:46 PM
Hi Muppet, PArob83, & Jazz Hands:
Hey it’s nice to have someone who agrees with me for a change. This suit technology has turned into a Pandora’s Box and it’s just making a mockery of what “was” an elite athletic art. :(

Adolf Kiefer had the right idea when he came up with the idea of briefs as the world standard for the athletic swim suit. His objective was to minimize the role of the suit and this concept worked quite eloquently in terms of emphasizing true competitiveness of the sport -and also maximizing comfort in the water (instead of the "taking a bath with your clothes on" sensation you get wearing a tech suit).

Briefs worked quite well for nearly 40 years and I wish we could “Tivo” back to the mid 1970s rules about minimizing the suit (and other parts & substances applied to the body) and freeze them at that time. :cheerleader:

Dolphin 2

The Fortress
June 9th, 2008, 01:48 PM
It's turning a financial advantage into a competitive advantage.

Nah, not for masters. I don't recall seeing anyone at Nats who wasn't in some kind of technical suit, usually the one they prefered. Bodyskins galore. I don't think that can be the issue. The only issue is whether the suit is illegally performance enhancing under FINA rules. Besides, "financial advantage" is already present in other areas such as the ability to afford massages, traveling to fast pools, multiple gyms/teams, not to work, etc etc. For example, I'm sure if I traveled to Clovis next May instead of swimming at GMU, my times would be faster. Not happening.

I worry about it more at the age group level. Those kids race frequently, and the technical suits no longer seem to be confined to the big meet. They wear them all the time. Where I am, the Pro seems common at big meets. And my kid already knows a 13 year old who wore a LZR to a regular USS meet. (How did she get it?!)

I am also sympathetic to the argument that suits like the LZR should be available to all at Trials or the Olympics. But that is a completely different issue than whether bodysuits should be banned or regulated. I just find that to be ridiculous. As for "guilt" and the like, huh? I think we are all old and wise enough to understand that, under identical training/taper conditions, if you have a brand new Pro or LZR, you'll go somewhat faster than using a drag suit on older heavier bodysuit. I have no personal issues with this. I like going fast and I like the bodysuits. But for those of you that like brief and jammers and tanks for the "feel" of the water, wear them for goodness sake. But don't call the rest of us bad guys or morally bankrupt. To each his own!

As for Dolphin's comment that it's like "taking a bath with your clothes on," I have no idea what he's talking about, as usual. Sounds like he needs a time machine.

Jazz Hands
June 9th, 2008, 02:10 PM
I don't recall seeing anyone at Nats who wasn't in some kind of technical suit, usually the one they prefered. Bodyskins galore.

I'm considering wearing briefs at Nationals this summer. Part of it is because of the cost, but also I found myself fidgeting with my suits way too much at Austin to prevent "bubbling" and other disasters. The only potential problem with the briefs would be showing the world the blinding contrast of my summer shorts tan.

thewookiee
June 9th, 2008, 02:17 PM
As technology gets better...things change. Why is golfers love the new new clubs and balls, why is it runners like new, lighter shoes, bikers like new lightweight bikes?

Yet, heaven forbide swimming take advantage of improvements in pools, racing lane lines, blocks and ohhh..shock...suits!

Look, we can't go back to the 70's...80's...90's. The suits are here to stay, so stop crying over them.

If you don't want to wear them, fine, don't. If you don't want to get beat by someone wearing them, out train them. Said it once, the suits can't do the swimming! Too many people are giving credit to the suits and not the athletes wearing the suits.

Did anyone take time to think that maybe all the hype around the suits have boosted the athlete's mental side, so they think by wearing them they will swim faster and then the ATHLETE...not the suit, goes out there and swims faster because they believed they could?


After all, this is a pretty mental sport.

The Fortress
June 9th, 2008, 02:20 PM
I'm considering wearing briefs at Nationals this summer. Part of it is because of the cost, but also I found myself fidgeting with my suits way too much at Austin to prevent "bubbling" and other disasters. The only potential problem with the briefs would be showing the world the blinding contrast of my summer shorts tan.

I have never had any bubbling issues. Fidgeting is normal for sprinters. It's practically a mandatory pre-race ritual, isn't it?

For what it's worth, I think you'll look much better in a brief!! Go for it! :banana:

Myself, I just ordered a Nero Comp. I like long and black.

aquageek
June 9th, 2008, 02:58 PM
I think the only thing we should revert to in the 1970s are gas prices and the black power afro pick my mom used. Right on!

Only one good thing ever came out of the 70s, The Starland Vocal Band. The ladies know what I'm talking about!

CreamPuff
June 9th, 2008, 03:08 PM
Well said Wookie. I'm trying hard to not be a stick in the mud all the time.
Just ordered my blueseventy nero comp. We'll see. . .


As technology gets better...things change. Why is golfers love the new new clubs and balls, why is it runners like new, lighter shoes, bikers like new lightweight bikes?

Yet, heaven forbide swimming take advantage of improvements in pools, racing lane lines, blocks and ohhh..shock...suits!

Look, we can't go back to the 70's...80's...90's. The suits are here to stay, so stop crying over them.

If you don't want to wear them, fine, don't. If you don't want to get beat by someone wearing them, out train them. Said it once, the suits can't do the swimming! Too many people are giving credit to the suits and not the athletes wearing the suits.

Did anyone take time to think that maybe all the hype around the suits have boosted the athlete's mental side, so they think by wearing them they will swim faster and then the ATHLETE...not the suit, goes out there and swims faster because they believed they could?


After all, this is a pretty mental sport.

gull
June 9th, 2008, 03:17 PM
I can honestly say that I don't feel as good about my swims/times when wearing a technical suit as I do when I accomplish similarly good swims in a regular old recordbreaker style suit...


I feel very good about them, except when I am beaten by someone (like Geek) wearing a coventional pair of jammers.

Did Fort really say she likes "long and black"?

thewookiee
June 9th, 2008, 03:36 PM
:censor:


Did Fort really say she likes "long and black"?




:censor:

The Fortress
June 9th, 2008, 04:08 PM
I feel very good about them, except when I am beaten by someone (like Geek) wearing a coventional pair of jammers.

Did Fort really say she likes "long and black"?

The most innocent things are misconstrued by the seemingly innocent ...

I feel good about my tech suits even when I get beaten by people in jammers and tanks. They're usually younger and value compression less. :D

gull
June 9th, 2008, 04:11 PM
The most innocent things are misconstrued by the seemingly innocent ...


I thought blue was your color.

thewookiee
June 9th, 2008, 04:15 PM
The most innocent things are misconstrued by the seemingly innocent ...

I feel good about my tech suits even when I get beaten by people in jammers and tanks. They're usually younger and value compression less. :D



Fort...you don't need to compress anything... ur smokin!

blainesapprentice
June 9th, 2008, 08:18 PM
Would Michael Phelps and all the other elite swimmers of today be able to win Gold in Beijing this summer without a technical suit? Would records set in pre-LZR days be broken without them wearing the LZR? Who knows for sure?

Obviously this thread is gonna have people who feel strongly one way or the other...but now that I am not swimming for someone anymore--aka college scholarship and school titles/ championships etc...I'm more interested in seeing how fast I can swim...without super whole body compression and ultra water repellent suits...


I would love to set a masters world record in a plain old everyday practice suit...when the rest of the field is wearing technical suits...to me...thats the measure of success...plus I'd feel that much better being able to say...and dang I could have gone even faster had I worn the same $300 suit as the rest of them all.

3strokes
June 10th, 2008, 11:18 AM
The most innocent things are misconstrued by the seemingly innocent ...

:D

I'm glad I wasn't the one who made the comment. I resisted. :p

gull
June 10th, 2008, 11:34 AM
I'm glad I wasn't the one who made the comment.


Like I said, I really thought blue was her color.

ALM
June 10th, 2008, 11:50 AM
To compare this to running: Consider that some sprinters (in track) have adopted a full-body suit to reduce drag and wind resistance. And who would show up at the Olympics in track spikes made in, say, 1950, 1980, or even 2000? The innovations in equipment make for faster times and world records.

Speaking of track, a comparatively-baggy tank top didn't stop Usain Bolt from setting a new world record in the 100-meter dash a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsV7LvrkqUA

mattson
June 10th, 2008, 02:41 PM
But why not put a limit on the total amount of fabric that can be used, or the total amount of acceptable body coverage?


cats out of the bag
...
tech suits have been around for since 1992

And the total-amount-of-fabric limit has been exceeded a century ago.

Bill Volckening
June 11th, 2008, 09:55 AM
...this is a pretty mental sport.

If only I was allowed to take this quote out of context...

thewookiee
June 11th, 2008, 02:40 PM
LOL....only if I the wisdom about swimming that I do now when I swam for you at Peddie...I may not have given you and the rest of the coaches so many grey hairs...

The Fortress
June 11th, 2008, 02:46 PM
Like I said, I really thought blue was her color.

I did just purchase a blue bikini.

Thanks Wookiee. :blush::blush: I promise I don't smoke.

rtodd
June 11th, 2008, 09:39 PM
Speaking of track, a comparatively-baggy tank top didn't stop Usain Bolt from setting a new world record in the 100-meter dash a couple of weeks ago:


Yea, I noticed that too and what a great place to break the record.