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Allen Stark
June 8th, 2008, 06:10 PM
Kitajima went 2:07.51 to break Hansen's WR by .99 sec.He was wearing a LZR in defiance of Japanese swimming authorities.I can't find video of the swim yet,can anyone else?

scyfreestyler
June 8th, 2008, 06:56 PM
That is incredible. That has to weigh heavy on Brendan.

cowsvils
June 8th, 2008, 09:19 PM
Japanese swimmers were allowed to wear LZRs at nationals, so he wasn't in defiance of anyone.

Allen Stark
June 8th, 2008, 09:50 PM
Good to know,some of the reports implied it was defiant.

quicksilver
June 8th, 2008, 09:55 PM
He wore the LZR even though he is being sponsored by Mizuno.
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h2BMDyeU-Igw4364bshgRWf6wpQA


Hansen's sponsor is Nike.
They allowed him to opt out of their suit for the games.


Maybe just wearing their running shoes on deck will keep everyone happy.
Hansen could race Kitajima in a 100 meter dash. Good advertisement.

SwimStud
June 8th, 2008, 11:27 PM
Hansen could race Kitajima in a 100 meter dash.

This should be done in fins!

knelson
June 8th, 2008, 11:30 PM
I believe the defiant part was he wore a t-shirt on the medal stand that translated to "I am the swimmer." In other words, shouldn't he get to choose which suit he wears?

scyfreestyler
June 9th, 2008, 12:56 AM
I believe the defiant part was he wore a t-shirt on the medal stand that translated to "I am the swimmer." In other words, shouldn't he get to choose which suit he wears?

By all means. Unless of course, he signed a contract agreeing to wear only the suits of the manufacturer who is signing his paycheck!

USMSarah
June 9th, 2008, 01:17 AM
That is incredible. That has to weigh heavy on Brendan.

I hope Hansen kicks his :mooning: in Beijing.

Warren
June 9th, 2008, 01:43 AM
I hope Hansen kicks his :mooning: in Beijing.

me too!

god i hate kitajima. I hope hansen's got somthing hot for him in bejing but I'm worried though because hansen choked last time. But its not 04, its 08, lets go Hansen!

stacky
June 9th, 2008, 06:59 AM
I can't find video of the swim yet,can anyone else?

I just barely made it to start recording this race in time, which was aired in Japan past midnight :snore:

http://www.mediafire.com/?plajhw2ftwd

The codecs are XviD and MP3 for the video and the audio portion respectively.

Edit: As you can see from my member profile I just registered to post my vid hoping I might be of some help after stumbling this forum by googling. I'm not an avid swimming fan so please be easy on me. :)

Edit2: Sorry for going off topic. There was a 4-episode scientific TV documentary/report series aired here in Japan back in March/April, and the 2nd episode was devoted to Michael Phelps, I found the whole program on Veoh.com in decent quality if you haven't seen it. I'm not the one who posted it, though I myself also recorded it:
http://www.veoh.com/videos/v6466224dMZ2XHED
Looks like you need to install a program called VeohTV or something in order to download it in full length rather than viewing just the first 5 min within the browser. I didn't try installing it since I have my own recording on my PC.

stacky
June 9th, 2008, 07:48 AM
(Sorry, double-posted the post above so deleted it)

ande
June 9th, 2008, 03:57 PM
articles

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=UST27926620080609

Austin Paper
http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sports/stories/other/06/09/0609swim.html

USMSarah
June 9th, 2008, 04:22 PM
me too!

god i hate kitajima. I hope hansen's got somthing hot for him in bejing but I'm worried though because hansen choked last time. But its not 04, its 08, lets go Hansen!

Hansen's due.

However, that stupid T-shirt he wore belongs to either a Mr. Phelps, Mr. Spitz or even Ms. Evans... not Kitajima! PLEASE!

If he wears that shirt again, Brendan can wear one that says "No You're Not."

stacky
June 10th, 2008, 06:41 AM
It's a pity if his message gets misinterpreted by non-Japanese speakers and offends other swimmers and their fans/supporters. According to the following on-line newspaper article (in Japanese, sorry):

http://www.tokyo-np.co.jp/article/national/news/CK2008060702000093.html

the t-shirt says that the Japanese sentence reads "I'm the one that swims" (of course that's my traslation into English) and the article quotes what Kitajima said in his interview after the race: "It's not the swimsuit that swims. I want people to instead turn their attention to us athletes who are training hard and trying to do the best we can."

So I believe what he is saying is that he is sick of all the fuss about swimsuits that's on newspapers and TV news in the past month here in Japan, and sick of the Japanese media interested only in the issues with Japanese Swimming Federation's decisions and the swimsuit manufacturers, and not much in the athletes's efforts or their performaces.

I think the English and the Chinese sentences are supposed to be the translations of the same message into respective languages but obviously he (or who knows who did those translations for him) didn't do a great job with it, as "I'm the swimmer" sounds more like Kitajima is either being arrogant, conceited or provocative towards his rivals by claiming that he is the number one swimmer. I understand this could potentially be interpreted out of context and offend Hansen and other top contenders, which would be unfortunate.

After the 200m breaststroke final at Japan Open I watched his interview where he said that he'd been behind Hansen after the last Olympics so this new WR doesn't change his stance towards the Beijing Olympics as being the one who challenges the champion, not the one who is challenged. So I think Kitajima pays a lot of respect towards Hansen.

Sorry if I sound overly defensive for Kitajima, just my two cents.

quicksilver
June 10th, 2008, 07:27 AM
I agree with that stacky. It's very accurate of what he was trying convey.
But Kitajima's etiquette in sportsmanship has shown to be really low on the scale of 1 to 10 more than once.

After touching out Hansen (using the illegal dolphin)...he proceeded to beat his chest and pound his fists, and made no real acknowledgment to the guy (Hansen) in the adjacent lane. Sure stuff like this happens all the time. But it doesn't sit well with many swimming fans.

When Cesar went a 40 point for the 100 free this year (at NCAA's)..his perch on the lane line, as if it were the victory podium, was sort of in bad taste. Many coaches I know said the same thing even though it was a ground breaking swim. Humility is a great quality. Accomplished swimmers (of all ages) let their performances do all the talking. And they congratulate their competition.

That said, I hope Hansen kicks his butt.

USMSarah
June 10th, 2008, 08:20 AM
the t-shirt says that the Japanese sentence reads "I'm the one that swims" (of course that's my traslation into English) and the article quotes what Kitajima said in his interview after the race: "It's not the swimsuit that swims. I want people to instead turn their attention to us athletes who are training hard and trying to do the best we can."
I was wondering if something did get lost in translation. Thank you for that update.

Go Hansen.

stacky
June 10th, 2008, 09:11 AM
quicksilver, thanks for your explanations. My point was to only to clarify Kitajima's intention when he had that t-shirt on which I was afraid got lost in translation. In no way am I trying to justify everything he has done, and with the past history of bad attitude or etiquette that you described you are probably right about his poor sportsmanship. I'm Japanese but not a nationalistic a%$ who tries to justify everything my country's athletes do when it's actually not respectable.

After all, the reason I registered and posted on this thread is because I saw the first poster of this thread who's interested in a video of the race and I thought I might be of help; I'm not like Kitajima's PR staff :)

Anyway, with LZR on Hansen may also easily set a new WR before the Olympics. I hope all the competitive swimmers around the world are allowed to wear what they want to wear in the Olympics and I am looking forward to great competitions. Cheers!

aquageek
June 10th, 2008, 09:14 AM
I think it's a good rivalry and we need a few characters in swimming. It's become very milk toast so I'm all in favor of a some trash talking.

abc
June 10th, 2008, 09:19 AM
I understand what everyone is saying about sportsmanship, and I don't think that Kitajima was trying to be offensive with his shirt. On the other hand, the guy just smashed a world record by about a second. I think that swimmers should try to be respectful of each other, but at the same time it's their decision to choose how they celebrate. If the other swimmers don't like it, all they have to do is set a new record and celebrate in their own way. Mark Spitz was probably one of the most arrogant swimmers around, but he did wonders marketing the sport of swimming. I see no problem with Gary Hall kissing his biceps before the 50 and then stepping up to win a gold. It gives the sport a little personality. Swimming has very little visible emotion in it (to the average spectator). Think about the other sports where you can see the player's emotions (even in golf with the Tiger Woods fist pump). This is much harder to show when you're in the middle of swimming a 200 breastroke. It's hard for the general public to relate to the athletes and this is one of the reasons college swim teams are being cut--no one gives a crap about swimming (doesn't generate income or notoriety). Just my two cents.

quicksilver
June 10th, 2008, 12:49 PM
I think it's a good rivalry and we need a few characters in swimming. It's become very milk toast so I'm all in favor of a some trash talking.

Agreed.

Gary Hall's circus show is pretty entertaining.
Hope he makes the team this time around.

hofffam
June 10th, 2008, 12:54 PM
I think it's a good rivalry and we need a few characters in swimming. It's become very milk toast so I'm all in favor of a some trash talking.

I don't like Gary Hall Jr. much but I agree with this comment. That's why I have no problem with Amanda Beard's pics and great rivalries. I don't mind highlighting the great fitness and bodies most elite swimmers have.

Great athletes have egos - part of the fuel to make them perform. I'm perfectly OK seeing some of it.

Blackbeard's Peg
June 10th, 2008, 01:38 PM
i take the shirt to mean, not literally, "let my swimming do the talking." while we all yap away, he swims.
he's got the best time now. lets see how things turn out in beijing - if he can keep his money where his shirt is.

USMSarah
June 10th, 2008, 01:42 PM
Didn't he also say that if he doesn't win gold, he won't come back home?

quicksilver
June 10th, 2008, 01:51 PM
Didn't he also say that if he doesn't win gold, he won't come back home?

He is a Samurai swimming warrior.

Sam Perry
June 10th, 2008, 02:03 PM
It's hard for the general public to relate to the athletes and this is one of the reasons college swim teams are being cut--no one gives a crap about swimming (doesn't generate income or notoriety). Just my two cents.

Quick story regarding this:
So I am riding on Sunday morning with a guy who is a Semi Pro mountain biker and Level III road biker. We were talking about the Olympics and I brought up Michael Phelps. About halfway through my story of his amazing abilities, he interrupts me and says:
"I am sorry I don't know swimming well, who is Michael Phelps?"

I was dumbfounded, if this were some fat lazy guy sitting on political blogs all night, or playing Grand Theft Auto 24/7 I might understand. This was a guy who is a professional cycler. I truly didn't know what to say. It just reminded me again about how unknown our sport really is. I just don't get it sometimes.:dunno:

Warren
June 10th, 2008, 02:17 PM
Quick story regarding this:
So I am riding on Sunday morning with a guy who is a Semi Pro mountain biker and Level III road biker. We were talking about the Olympics and I brought up Michael Phelps. About halfway through my story of his amazing abilities, he interrupts me and says:
"I am sorry I don't know swimming well, who is Michael Phelps?"

I was dumbfounded, if this were some fat lazy guy sitting on political blogs all night, or playing Grand Theft Auto 24/7 I might understand. This was a guy who is a professional cycler. I truly didn't know what to say. It just reminded me again about how unknown our sport really is. I just don't get it sometimes.:dunno:

To be fair, most swimmers don't know much about cycling. All I know about cycling is what Lance Armstrong did and that that Landess guy was on roids.

Sam Perry
June 10th, 2008, 03:14 PM
To be fair, most swimmers don't know much about cycling. All I know about cycling is what Lance Armstrong did and that that Landess guy was on roids.

Good point. But wouldn't you say Lance/Lemond are at least on the same level of accomplishment as Phelps? They are/were household names.

Maybe Phelps needs to get ball cancer or chased around by French media looking for syringes.

aquageek
June 10th, 2008, 03:35 PM
Ball cancer - cold, yet funny.

Chris Stevenson
June 10th, 2008, 04:25 PM
Good point. But wouldn't you say Lance/Lemond are at least on the same level of accomplishment as Phelps? They are/were household names.

Maybe Phelps needs to get ball cancer or chased around by French media looking for syringes.

It is hard to compare such things but I think Armstrong's accomplishments are greater than Phelps' to this point plus he has the whole cancer thing going for him. People are not talking about Phelps as a potential political candidate, for example, as I've heard from time to time about Armstrong. (And you have to admit LA has a great name.)

I don't believe LeMond was more famous than Phelps is now -- I'm not going to argue whether being the first American to win the TdF ranks higher than Phelps' accomplishments -- and Landis is much more infamous than famous, if you know what I mean. If he hadn't tested positive and fought it so much then I think very few outside of cycling would know him.

In an Olympic year I would expect recognition of Phelps to be high --in the US, swimming is being positioned more than usual as one of the premer Olympic sports, displacing tarnished T&F to a certain extent -- but maybe it is a little early still.

Allen Stark
June 10th, 2008, 04:33 PM
Prior to the 2004 Olympics Kitajima was one of my favorite athletes:breaststroker,good work ethic,beautiful stroke,etc.His roar of triumph didn't bother me,he had just won the Gold after all.His illegal kick is another matter.I think it had to be deliberate.I think after Hansen's WR he was afraid he couldn't win fair.The Hansen/Kitajima rivalry is a good one and good for the sport.Anything that gets us noticed is good.
Stacky,thank you so much for the link.

Sam Perry
June 10th, 2008, 05:39 PM
[QUOTE=Allen Stark;136412]His illegal kick is another matter.I think it had to be deliberate.I think after Hansen's WR he was afraid he couldn't win fair.QUOTE]

I am not a Kitajima sympathizer, so with that being said...
I get really tired of people saying he cheated. There is no question he took a dolphin kick off the wall. It was not illegal beacuse of the gutless judges that didn't disqualify him for it. In fact they changed the rules to allow for it going forward. The fact that so many people call him a cheater is just not right. You are not cheating unless a judge says you are. The judges are the ones to blame for that.

hofffam
June 10th, 2008, 06:30 PM
I think Lance's accomplishments are more staggering overall than Phelps. Things might change after Beijing.

But Lance won THE most competive, most famous bike race 7 years in a row. And the TDF is 3 weeks of hell. He often won in spectacular fashion - over all kinds of rivals. He crashed, got up, and beat people. He won faking that he was weak. So he won with tactics, overwhelming fitness, versatility, etc.

Lance also beat Europeans at a sport they normally dominate. He even won Olympic medals though not gold.

Lance benefited from the publicity of his cancer, PED accusations, a divorce, Sheryl Crow, the yellow bracelet, and his charitable work.

tjburk
June 10th, 2008, 06:40 PM
[QUOTE=Allen Stark;136412]His illegal kick is another matter.I think it had to be deliberate.I think after Hansen's WR he was afraid he couldn't win fair.QUOTE]

I am not a Kitajima sympathizer, so with that being said...
I get really tired of people saying he cheated. There is no question he took a dolphin kick off the wall. It was not illegal beacuse of the gutless judges that didn't disqualify him for it. In fact they changed the rules to allow for it going forward. The fact that so many people call him a cheater is just not right. You are not cheating unless a judge says you are. The judges are the ones to blame for that.

I really have to disagree with you on that one....I have a video that shows how he not only did it on the start, but off the wall as well.

And by that way of thinking Sam....steroids are not cheating unless you get caught? Cheating is still cheating whether you get caught or not!

aquageek
June 10th, 2008, 06:44 PM
When does the statute expire on the Kitajima whining? He won, move on.

tjburk
June 10th, 2008, 06:54 PM
Not whining...just stating the facts as we all know them......

Sam Perry
June 10th, 2008, 07:18 PM
[QUOTE=Sam Perry;136418]

And by that way of thinking Sam....steroids are not cheating unless you get caught? Cheating is still cheating whether you get caught or not!

This is a weak comparison. If the judges had seen steroid tests positive and not said anything then it would be the same. This is what they did with Kitajima, so they are the ones at fault. He won (maybe not fair and square) but he won, the judges allowed it. The only way my opinion would change that he "cheated" is if he paid them off not to disqualify him. Then he and the judges are guilty. I don't care if he did it of one wall or 50 walls, the judges were the ones who let him get away with it, therefore he won.

Sam Perry
June 10th, 2008, 07:21 PM
Ball cancer - cold, yet funny.

Yes cold, but my bluntless is what it is. Gets me in trouble way too much.

aquageek
June 10th, 2008, 07:24 PM
Not whining...just stating the facts as we all know them......

There's nothing factual about human judgment in sports competition, that's the only fact. Now move on, it was 4 years ago.

tjburk
June 10th, 2008, 07:25 PM
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.....My opinion is you're cheating whether you get caught or not....that is one of those races that should have an asterisk next to it if there ever was one.......video proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that he did it.....

tjburk
June 10th, 2008, 07:27 PM
There's nothing factual about human judgment in sports competition, that's the only fact. Now move on, it was 4 years ago.

Geek, would you like me to send you the videos? I'll even put them in slo mo so even you can see it?

And since when is stating an opinion based on fact whining?

quicksilver
June 10th, 2008, 08:11 PM
At that particular meet there was a lot of noise about the stealthy kick, but that was the end of it.

"You can't appeal a judgment call," U.S. men's coach Eddie Reese said. "The race is over. No whistle, no foul."


Would he ever go for 2 kicks?
That's already been done in FINA competition.

Lane 2 makes it pretty obvious...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6686673992004371994&q=brendan%20hansen%2050%20meter&hl=en

tjburk
June 10th, 2008, 08:15 PM
[QUOTE=tjburk;136427]

This is a weak comparison. If the judges had seen steroid tests positive and not said anything then it would be the same. This is what they did with Kitajima, so they are the ones at fault. He won (maybe not fair and square) but he won, the judges allowed it. The only way my opinion would change that he "cheated" is if he paid them off not to disqualify him. Then he and the judges are guilty. I don't care if he did it of one wall or 50 walls, the judges were the ones who let him get away with it, therefore he won.

Sam, from the perspective of a sometimes official I would disagree with you here too.....In breaststroke it is actually easier to see a dolphin kick from a little off to the side....looking straight down at the legs it is harder to see since the body naturally undulates during the pull. And as an official, if I "think" I see something I should not call it.....I should only call what I "know" I have seen. Just my perspective again.

But watching the video....I think that official should have been taken out to the wood shed for missing that one!

aquageek
June 10th, 2008, 08:28 PM
Geek, would you like me to send you the videos? I'll even put them in slo mo so even you can see it?

And since when is stating an opinion based on fact whining?

No thanks, saw them four years ago, when I moved on and stopped whining. You keep it up, though. He won, Hansen lost, he got the medal. Time to man-up, missy.

Interesting how you allow yourself the luxury of not making the call, but not the officials in this meet, who, btw, don't have slo-mo for 4 years to dissect, wring their hands about, cry and complain, and remain all around biter and jaded. As an official myself I tend to understand how these things work.

tjburk
June 10th, 2008, 08:36 PM
No thanks, saw them four years ago, when I moved on and stopped whining. You keep it up, though. He won, Hansen lost, he got the medal. Time to man-up, missy.

Interesting how you allow yourself the luxury of not making the call, but not the officials in this meet, who, btw, don't have slo-mo for 4 years to dissect, wring their hands about, cry and complain, and remain all around biter and jaded. As an official myself I tend to understand how these things work.

Funny how in your small little world and even smaller little mind you would take a legitimate duscussion between Sam and I as whining on my part. So put that in your shorts next to that rolled up sock....missy.

aquageek
June 10th, 2008, 09:06 PM
To quote someone learned in the field of officiating - "as an official, if I "think" I see something I should not call it.....I should only call what I "know" I have seen."

Whoever said that was S-M-A-R-T. You gotta figure that person probably understands officiating and split second calls. I shall apply this wise reasoning to my officiating the next 6 Thursday nights and hope no one replays a call for me in 4 years.

And, if you think you are breaking new ground calling my mind small, you are merely the latest in a long line.

Oh, and Sam is excluded from further intelligent discussion since he said ball cancer. I've been chuckling for hours on that.

Whine on, white boy! Wake up to a brand new day.

tjburk
June 10th, 2008, 09:11 PM
To quote an someone learned in the field of officiating - "as an official, if I "think" I see something I should not call it.....I should only call what I "know" I have seen."

Whoever said that was S-M-A-R-T. You gotta figure that person probably understands officiating and split second call.

As a matter of fact I do understand that....that is why I put the cheating directly on Kitajima....character is not only what YOU do when people are watching but also what YOU do when you hope they aren't.

Sam Perry
June 10th, 2008, 10:43 PM
Oh, and Sam is excluded from further intelligent discussion...

Story of my life.:whiteflag:

The Fortress
June 10th, 2008, 10:53 PM
Story of my life.:whiteflag:

Hahaha. You've been cranky ever since the Kevin Doak thing. Don't worry, you're smart. And that ball cancer remark was hilarious!

Look, Kitajima intended to cheat and knew the officials would have trouble catching him cheat. Not a great approach to sport. I don't think the steroid analogy is all that far off. But they didn't, so it's clear that underwater video is needed for properly officiating evilstroke. Just another reason why it sucks.

I've seen officials blow the double dolphin evilstroke call at masters meets too. Not a popular DQ, apparently. But does that mean I should work on sneaking as many dolphin kicks in as I can since I suck at evilstroke? No.

Allen Stark
June 11th, 2008, 01:46 AM
I am not saying they should have changed the judges decision after the fact,I was merely pointing out that I lost respect for him.

lefty
June 11th, 2008, 11:49 AM
As a matter of fact I do understand that....that is why I put the cheating directly on Kitajima....character is not only what YOU do when people are watching but also what YOU do when you hope they aren't.

TJ: why are you so certain that he did it on purpose? For it to be cheating, wouldn't he have to attempt to cover up the infraction (some form of deception or trickery)? I am comfortable with "he should have been DQ'd," but completely uncomfortable with the moral judgement.

The Fortress
June 11th, 2008, 11:55 AM
TJ: why are you so certain that he did it on purpose? For it to be cheating, wouldn't he have to attempt to cover up the infraction (some form of deception or trickery)? I am comfortable with "he should have been DQ'd," but completely uncomfortable with the moral judgement.

I'm sure he just did those dolphin kicks by accident. lol. Yeah right. And Roger Clemens doesn't use steroids either.

quicksilver
June 11th, 2008, 12:08 PM
It's been said that a pulse from a quick dolphin kick on a breaststroke pullout might offer as much as 2/10 ths of a second.
That's the difference between 1st and 2nd in many races.

It's likely that there will be cameras focused on every turn this summer.
Whether or not instant replay ever gets used by FINA officials is another story.

knelson
June 11th, 2008, 12:16 PM
And that ball cancer remark was hilarious!

I agree, although I'm sure some would be offended. I don't think we'll be seeing the "Susan G. Komen Race for Rack Cancer" anytime soon, either.

aquageek
June 11th, 2008, 12:28 PM
One of the great things about sport is the human aspect of it, and thus this discussion. There are no facts in human judging, just interpretations. We have the luxury of spending 4 years micro analyzing some VHS tape, a judge has maybe 1 second, at best.

People get all crazed and have some moral indignation and start spewing sales meetings slogans about integrity. It's just sports, for goodness sakes. It's fun and games and, it makes the next round between these two even more exciting, although I doubt it could ever live up to the hype.

Many of the greatest moments in sports have occurred precisely because of the human element, not because some nerd was crouching behind the replay camera for 4 years afterwards.

Glider
June 11th, 2008, 12:45 PM
QS,

This statement really interests me, as it could cut 0.4 seconds off a 50 SCY if it's true. Where did you read this? Has anyone else seen it?

I don't have much of an SDK to use, but was planning on focusing/working on it this upcoming year. I'd sure like to think it would be worth this much improvement.


It's been said that a pulse from a quick dolphin kick on a breaststroke pullout might offer as much as 2/10 ths of a second.
That's the difference between 1st and 2nd in many races.

It's likely that there will be cameras focused on every turn this summer.
Whether or not instant replay ever gets used by FINA officials is another story.

quicksilver
June 11th, 2008, 01:44 PM
QS,

This statement really interests me, as it could cut 0.4 seconds off a 50 SCY if it's true. Where did you read this? Has anyone else seen it?



I ran across it in an article a long tome ago.
Actually, it was an estimate given by a very irate Aaron Piersol...who was all fired up about seeing the kick, and no one said anything.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/swimming/news/story?id=1859947



From what I've seen at recent meets, the kick indeed gives a micro-burst of propulsion.
2/10ths?..hmmm? That estimation might make sense given that the 200 meter record fell by a full second. (or was it the suit? )


http://chuqui.typepad.com/two_for_elbowing/2004/08/kitajimas-dolph.html

knelson
June 11th, 2008, 01:50 PM
One of the great things about sport is the human aspect of it, and thus this discussion. There are no facts in human judging, just interpretations.

Interesting you bring this up because I just watched the movie Rashomon last night which delves into the subjectivity of human perception. Very interesting movie if you haven't seen it!

Sam Perry
June 11th, 2008, 02:06 PM
[QUOTE=quicksilver;136521]I ran across it in an article a long tome ago.
Actually, it was an estimate given by a very irate Aaron Piersol...who was all fired up about seeing the kick, and no one said anything.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/swimming/news/story?id=1859947

Thanks for sharing the article. Hansen's quote sums this whole discussion up:

"It would be a big deal for an official to come out and to disqualify somebody," Hansen said. "I can only account for my actions and I know exactly what I did in my race. Everything else, I hope the officials who are sitting right next to me will take care of that.

"They are not there to have a front row seat and watch the Olympic Games," he added. "They're there to take care of the rules. I believe that's what they do."


All of you can talk of cheating. Like it or not, he got away with it. Kitajima won the gold medal because the officials didn't do their job. Not to mention, Hansen swam SLOWER than he had at trials. He admits his rookie mistake of not swimming his own race. Beijing should be interesting to see if he learned what not to do from Athens.

Sam Perry
June 11th, 2008, 02:08 PM
I agree, although I'm sure some would be offended. I don't think we'll be seeing the "Susan G. Komen Race for Rack Cancer" anytime soon, either.

I race for the rack daily. Isn't that why plastic surgery is so popular?! You have to admit, if they called it that participation would probably double.

aquageek
June 11th, 2008, 02:17 PM
I race for the rack daily. Isn't that why plastic surgery is so popular?! You have to admit, if they called it that participation would probably double.

Are you drinking more than normal these days?

When I hit my ATF, I had a lovely man-rack. Unlike Smith, less is not more for me, unless you mean less swimming, more boobage.

ALM
June 12th, 2008, 12:01 AM
When I hit my ATF, I had a lovely man-rack. Unlike Smith, less is not more for me, unless you mean less swimming, more boobage.

Geez, I need a cheat sheet to keep up with all of these acronyms and new words.

What's ATF? Can I assume "All-Time Fattest"? :bump:

And, for the record, I will never be called a "fegirl". No nail polish or hair color for me, thank you! :)

tjburk
June 12th, 2008, 12:04 AM
[QUOTE=quicksilver;136521]I ran across it in an article a long tome ago.
Actually, it was an estimate given by a very irate Aaron Piersol...who was all fired up about seeing the kick, and no one said anything.
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/summer04/swimming/news/story?id=1859947

Thanks for sharing the article. Hansen's quote sums this whole discussion up:

"It would be a big deal for an official to come out and to disqualify somebody," Hansen said. "I can only account for my actions and I know exactly what I did in my race. Everything else, I hope the officials who are sitting right next to me will take care of that.

"They are not there to have a front row seat and watch the Olympic Games," he added. "They're there to take care of the rules. I believe that's what they do."


All of you can talk of cheating. Like it or not, he got away with it. Kitajima won the gold medal because the officials didn't do their job. Not to mention, Hansen swam SLOWER than he had at trials. He admits his rookie mistake of not swimming his own race. Beijing should be interesting to see if he learned what not to do from Athens.

Sam, I definitely agree with you here....just kind of sad that he did get away with it.

QS, if you watch the underwater video of Kitajima and Hansen.....they touch and come off the wall almost dead even.....when Kitajima throws in the dolphin kick you can actually see him pull ahead by what ended up being the winning margin.

quicksilver
June 12th, 2008, 07:44 AM
I agree TJ, the video illustrates how a well timed kick can make the difference..
Kitajima lurches forward by what appears to be a couple of feet.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1680831288568460436&q=kitajima+versus+hansen&ei=OgdRSP6lAo2w-wGXmp3LDA&hl=en


At the end of the day, the playing field is now even.
Both swimmers can compete in the same suits, and do their pullouts using the same kick.


I scrolled down to read a few of the comments on YouTube.:rant3:
Public opinion is pretty strong on this topic.

aquageek
June 12th, 2008, 08:10 AM
What's ATF? Can I assume "All-Time Fattest"?

ATF - close, All Time Fat, the high water mark for tubbiness.

BruceGianniny
June 13th, 2008, 01:28 PM
might try www.swimmingworldmagazine.com and view the Morning Swim Show for Kitajima's swim and others from recent competitions

pwolf66
June 13th, 2008, 01:48 PM
Kitajima won the gold medal because the officials didn't do their job

Just curious. Has ANY acknowledgement that an official CLEARLY saw this infraction and did not call it ever been released? I've never seen it.

As I believe Geek stated, we've had 4 years to tear this apart, an on deck official has less than 1 second. Should it have been called if seen? Heck yes. Does anyone know FOR a FACT that an official CLEARLY saw the downward dolphin kick? No. Should someone have been able to see it from the deck? I find it hard to believe that they didn't but I wasn't the one on deck so I do not know with 100% certainty what was or was not seen. But as someone who has missed calls that were right in front of me in the past, it can happen, even at the Olympics.

Paul

Jeff Commings
June 13th, 2008, 02:46 PM
Just curious. Has ANY acknowledgement that an official CLEARLY saw this infraction and did not call it ever been released? I've never seen it.

Paul

If the judge in his lane saw the kick, OF COURSE he's not going to say he saw it and decided to look the other way.

And Sam, just because he got away with it doesn't mean it isn't cheating. If I look on someone's paper during a final exam, but the teacher doesn't see me, but the rest of the class sees it, am I not cheating?


After touching out Hansen (using the illegal dolphin)...he proceeded to beat his chest and pound his fists, and made no real acknowledgment to the guy (Hansen) in the adjacent lane. Sure stuff like this happens all the time. But it doesn't sit well with many swimming fans.


It does happen all the time, and it happened in 2007 when Hansen won the 100 breast at worlds. Didn't shake Kitajima's hand. I don't recall 2005 orlds, but I don't recall 2005 worlds very much, but I think there was no hand shaking there either when Brendan won both breaststrokes. So, it goes both ways here.

In any case, this will be the greatest duel in Beijing. Though the Lochte/Phelps stuff will be pretty intense.

lefty
June 13th, 2008, 03:11 PM
And Sam, just because he got away with it doesn't mean it isn't cheating. If I look on someone's paper during a final exam, but the teacher doesn't see me, but the rest of the class sees it, am I not cheating?

Again, calling someone a cheat is moral judgement. False starting is NOT cheating, underwater recovery is not cheating. They simply get your DQ'd. There has to be intent to deceive - which is impossible to know with any certainty - and thus it is presumptive for anyone to call him a cheater.

matysekj
June 13th, 2008, 03:32 PM
There has to be intent to deceive - which is impossible to know with any certainty - and thus it is presumptive for anyone to call him a cheater.

I'd disagree with you on this one, lefty. Look at where in his starts/turns he does the dolphin kick. Now do a start or turn and you decide - is it at all natural to do a dolphin kick at that point - before you pull down? I'm a life long breaststroker and I can answer that - NO! You absolutely have to try to do a kick at that point to have that happen. To me, that proves intent.

Having said that, he did it and he got away with it. We should all move on and hope that the officials watch a little more closely next time. I didn't make finals (consolation) in D3 nationals in my freshman year because the last qualifier did a big dolphin kick on each and every turn and was not caught at it in prelims. He was caught and DQ'd in finals, but he was still on the AA list and I wasn't. Life went on, I got over it.

pwolf66
June 13th, 2008, 03:37 PM
If the judge in his lane saw the kick, OF COURSE he's not going to say he saw it and decided to look the other way.

And Sam, just because he got away with it doesn't mean it isn't cheating. If I look on someone's paper during a final exam, but the teacher doesn't see me, but the rest of the class sees it, am I not cheating?


But, if your scenario had the RULE that only the teacher could call cheating if the TEACHER and only the teacher witnessed it, then it is EXACTLY the same. Sporting rules and morality are 2 totally seperate areas.

Do I think that Kitajima violated the FINA stroke rules for Breaststroke that were in place at the time? Heck yes. But was it a callable infraction at the time? I can not say for certain as I can not attest to what the official(s) did or did not see.

tjburk
June 13th, 2008, 04:55 PM
Again, calling someone a cheat is moral judgement. False starting is NOT cheating, underwater recovery is not cheating. They simply get your DQ'd. There has to be intent to deceive - which is impossible to know with any certainty - and thus it is presumptive for anyone to call him a cheater.

Lefty, I don't know how old you are.....but when I swam AAU in California, High School and a year of college.....you used to be allowed 2 false starts. So, if the guy in the lane next to you had one false start and you didn't, we used to try and pull them off causing their second but only my first. Thus eliminating one more competitor. If the official thought you were doing it intentionally (cheating) you could be DQ'd. That is one of the reasons for the change to a single false start in swimming....of course the amount of time that could add to the meet was another reason for sure....Used to have a lot more false starts in meets then you see now.

lefty
June 13th, 2008, 05:52 PM
Lefty, I don't know how old you are.....but when I swam AAU in California, High School and a year of college.....you used to be allowed 2 false starts. So, if the guy in the lane next to you had one false start and you didn't, we used to try and pull them off causing their second but only my first. Thus eliminating one more competitor. If the official thought you were doing it intentionally (cheating) you could be DQ'd. That is one of the reasons for the change to a single false start in swimming....of course the amount of time that could add to the meet was another reason for sure....Used to have a lot more false starts in meets then you see now.


Are you saying that you are comfortable calling him a cheater because of familiarity?

tjburk
June 14th, 2008, 07:36 PM
No, I say I am comfortable calling him a cheat for the same reason Jim is....as a lifelong breaststroker, I know where I can throw in a dolphin kick and hope to get away with it......if you do the old 2 footed start and a keyhole dive, you throw in a dolphin kick right as you enter the water and propel yourself a lot further than the person next to you. It is illegal and is cheating. Always has been. They changed the rule mainly because of the uproar over Kitajima at the Olympics....that rule had been dabated for quite a while before that. It is actually easier on the official to allow it, because like I said earlier......trying to see this kick from above and behind the swimmer is not so easy.....if I am off to the side, or using underwater cameras I can see it real easy. But the dolphin kick on the start is still illegal...it has to be done during the down stroke of the arms....not before.....if you watch the video he actually does two on the start and one on the turn. Clearly cheating in my opinion.

quicksilver
June 14th, 2008, 08:19 PM
Not to belabor the point, but what you described happening right after the initial dive is pretty sneaky stuff.
It's hard to buy that he was unaware of what he was pulling off... under the surface.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3524262381739290866&q=kitajima%20versus%20hansen&hl=en

JoeBob
June 15th, 2008, 04:25 PM
Heck yeah, he got away with a lot of stuff in Athens. Aside from the Kitajima moments, Daniel Guyrta really left an impression. He was the skinny Hungarian kid who beat Hansen 3 times in the 200. He split 1:04, 1:06 in finals to bump Hansen down to 3rd place. Guyrta's got a little more speed now (1:01.61 at MareNostrum yesterday)and he could surprise many in Beijing. Interesting times ahead.

Allen Stark
June 15th, 2008, 08:40 PM
Guyrta seemed to disappear for awhile,but I figured he'd show up for the Olympics.