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tomtopo
June 12th, 2008, 03:20 PM
Why does MLB prohibit the use of aluminum bats or spitting on baseballs or letting players use steroids (okay - two out of three)? Why does NASCAR prohibit fuel injected engines or certain transmission gear ratios? Why does the PGA disqualify certain golf balls or regulate golf clubs? Why can't basketball players where stilts or use a trampoline? Enough is enough, when a piece of equipment can alter the record books and cheapen the physical accomplishments of every past athlete, it's time to say stop (don't you think?).

The integrity of our sport is on the line here. How about two dolphin kicks for breaststroke or how about adding another arm-stroke to the backstroke turn or allowing IM'ers to turn-over before they touch on the back to breast transition.

I'm against the LZR and any suit that enhances performance and don't think I'll be changing my mind unless they find out swimming naked can make you swim faster.


Did you hear about the Buddhist who refused Novocain during a root canal? His goal: transcend dental medication.

Coach T.

SwimStud
June 12th, 2008, 03:23 PM
Why does MLB prohibit the use of aluminum bats or spitting on baseballs or letting players use steroids (okay - two out of three)? Why does NASCAR prohibit fuel injected engines or certain transmission gear ratios? Why does the PGA disqualify certain golf balls or regulate golf clubs? Why can't basketball players where stilts or use a trampoline? Enough is enough, when a piece of equipment can alter the record books and cheapen the physical accomplishments of every past athlete, it's time to say stop (don't you think?).

The integrity of our sport is on the line here. How about two dolphin kicks for breaststroke or how about adding another arm-stroke to the backstroke turn or allowing IM'ers to turn-over before they touch on the back to breast transition.

I'm against the LZR and any suit that enhances performance and don't think I'll be changing my mind unless they find out swimming naked can make you swim faster.


Did you hear about the Buddhist who refused Novocain during a root canal? His goal: transcend dental medication.

Coach T.
LOL here here!

Midas
June 12th, 2008, 03:34 PM
Why does MLB prohibit the use of aluminum bats or spitting on baseballs or letting players use steroids (okay - two out of three)? Why does NASCAR prohibit fuel injected engines or certain transmission gear ratios? Why does the PGA disqualify certain golf balls or regulate golf clubs? Why can't basketball players where stilts or use a trampoline? Enough is enough, when a piece of equipment can alter the record books and cheapen the physical accomplishments of every past athlete, it's time to say stop (don't you think?).

The integrity of our sport is on the line here. How about two dolphin kicks for breaststroke or how about adding another arm-stroke to the backstroke turn or allowing IM'ers to turn-over before they touch on the back to breast transition.

I'm against the LZR and any suit that enhances performance and don't think I'll be changing my mind unless they find out swimming naked can make you swim faster.


Did you hear about the Buddhist who refused Novocain during a root canal? His goal: transcend dental medication.

Coach T.

Bah! The same can be said for full body suits generally. Or the "paper suits" of yore, or even basic speedos. What about caps and goggles? Then there are wave dampening lane lines (I think they even double the lane lines in elite-level swimming, don't they) and starting blocks. All these things allowed dramatic improvements over the times people swam before them.

As Ande said in another thread, the genie is out of the bottle and it will be well-near impossible to stuff it back in.

Also, some of your comparisons just aren't fair. For example, aluminum bats are prohibited in MLB because they give the hitters an unfair advantage over the pitchers. No such concern with swimming (edit--I guess there is the "haves" and the "have nots" which is a legitimate gripe but not one I agree with). I would guess that golf clubs and balls are regulated (at least in part--I'm just speculating here) because certain clubs and balls can correct for deficiencies in players strokes that takes some of the skill out of the game. Unlike neoprene wetsuits, I'm pretty sure that the LZR does not do the swimming for you...

I personally don't want to go back to the stone ages of swimming. I'm very happy with the technological progress our sport has made over the years.

By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, all I own is a pair of FS Pro Jammers. I don't have any present plans to buy a full bodysuit and I don't care if others do or don't.

ande
June 12th, 2008, 03:37 PM
every sport allows some innovations and deny's others

pole vaulters use fiberglass poles not bamboo

Swimming has guidelines to follow
http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf
section 102.15 of the FINA & USMS pertains to
DISQUALIFICATIONS

do you feel the LZR falls under:

102.15.9
Swimmers are not permitted to wear or use any device or substance to help
their speed, pace or buoyancy during a race. Goggles may be worn and
rubdown oil applied if not considered excessive by the referee.

I feel we can't go back now the LZR & suits like it have already been approved.

Ande




Why does MLB prohibit the use of aluminum bats or spitting on baseballs or letting players use steroids (okay - two out of three)?
Why does NASCAR prohibit fuel injected engines or certain transmission gear ratios?
Why does the PGA disqualify certain golf balls or regulate golf clubs?
Why can't basketball players where stilts or use a trampoline?
Enough is enough, when a piece of equipment can alter the record books and cheapen the physical accomplishments of every past athlete,
it's time to say stop (don't you think?)

The integrity of our sport is on the line here. How about two dolphin kicks for breaststroke or how about adding another arm-stroke to the backstroke turn or allowing IM'ers to turn-over before they touch on the back to breast transition.

I'm against the LZR and any suit that enhances performance and don't think I'll be changing my mind unless they find out swimming naked can make you swim faster.


Did you hear about the Buddhist who refused Novocain during a root canal? His goal: transcend dental medication.

Coach T.

mctrusty
June 12th, 2008, 03:38 PM
Why does MLB prohibit the use of aluminum bats or spitting on baseballs or letting players use steroids (okay - two out of three)? Why does NASCAR prohibit fuel injected engines or certain transmission gear ratios? Why does the PGA disqualify certain golf balls or regulate golf clubs? Why can't basketball players where stilts or use a trampoline? Enough is enough, when a piece of equipment can alter the record books and cheapen the physical accomplishments of every past athlete, it's time to say stop (don't you think?).

Swimming's more like Formula One, where there is a drivers' champion and a constructors' champion.

...just waiting for D2 to show up...

The Fortress
June 12th, 2008, 03:39 PM
The integrity of our sport is on the line here. How about two dolphin kicks for breaststroke or how about adding another arm-stroke to the backstroke turn or allowing IM'ers to turn-over before they touch on the back to breast transition.

I'm against the LZR and any suit that enhances performance and don't think I'll be changing my mind unless they find out swimming naked can make you swim faster.

Give it a rest already. :shakeshead:

The integrity of the sport is not on the line. There are already new suits to compete with the LZR at better prices.

2 dolphin kicks for breaststroke and a flip over IM turn sound fabulous!! I'm all for one handed touches on fly and breast too.

chowmi
June 12th, 2008, 03:42 PM
Today's Wall Street Journal has a half page article on the back of the Marketplace, I think (above the weather). It's even got a color picture!

Topic? LZR and tech suits of course. The article is pretty old news to most anyone who's read these threads, but you have to admit the news coverage of anything swimming is always exciting. I couldn't see a writer getting excited for those nylon suits of old with the weird crotch panel and my mommy's jerry-rigging shoelaces tied across the contour back straps.

chowmi
June 12th, 2008, 03:44 PM
No Fort, anything-goes-turns, like maybe flipturns for all strokes! And you can flutter kick on the last rotation!!

thewookiee
June 12th, 2008, 04:11 PM
Give it a rest already. :shakeshead:

The integrity of the sport is not on the line. There are already new suits to compete with the LZR at better prices.

2 dolphin kicks for breaststroke and a flip over IM turn sound fabulous!! I'm all for one handed touches on fly and breast too.

AMEN!!!! Let's talk about integrity...when the East Germans and the Chinese were caught using preformance enhancing drugs... the integrity of the sport was damaged forever. Since then, all good swims have come under a cloud of suspected drug use.

If you have a problem with advancement...then were the briefs, don't swim with caps and goggles but get over it already.

There are those of us that like bodysuits. I haven't worn an LZR or whatever but I do have an Arena Powerskin and an Adidas bodysuit. I like the way the feel on me.

I am more comfortable racing in the Powerskin than the briefs. I am in favor of advancement.

If you don't like em...quit gripping and don't wear em. But leave it to each individual to decide what is best of him/her and stop trying to ruin advancement for the rest of us.

aquageek
June 12th, 2008, 04:18 PM
The only time the integrity of swimming is on the line is when Stud attempts the backstroke.

As to you Fort, forget the one handed breast touches, let's go straight up flip turns on breast.

ande
June 12th, 2008, 04:24 PM
I'll take one handed touches on breast and fly
I also want flip turns on them too

plus forward block starts on backstroke
if not that
at least let us curl our toes over the edge

unlimited dolphin kicking in every stroke
we'll surface eventually for air or turns let us go further than 15 meters

plus a roll over free turns for back to breast in IMs


Give it a rest already. :shakeshead:

The integrity of the sport is not on the line. There are already new suits to compete with the LZR at better prices.

2 dolphin kicks for breaststroke and a flip over IM turn sound fabulous!! I'm all for one handed touches on fly and breast too.

cdrcld
June 12th, 2008, 04:34 PM
I'll take one handed touches on breast and fly
I also want flip turns on them too

plus forward block starts on backstroke
if not that
at least let us curl our toes over the edge

unlimited dolphin kicking in every stroke
we'll surface eventually for air or turns let us go further than 15 meters

plus a roll over free turns for back to breast in IMs

Heck, let's all start to race with fins on too. Starts will look sort of awkward...and turns will be harder...but records will fall!

The Fortress
June 12th, 2008, 04:53 PM
Heck, let's all start to race with fins on too. Starts will look sort of awkward...and turns will be harder...but records will fall!


You do realize that monofin racing is a competitive sport? I also see no problem with having a fin race at a masters meet.

One of the things I've enjoyed most since coming back as a masters swimmer after a 24 year break is all the changes. I've had a blast learning the new backstroke turns, learning how to SDK, doing drills I'd never heard of, trying the speedy bodysuits, etc. (I'm also happy to escape the high mileage training mentality and train smarter.) I see no appeal in clinging to the old ways and resisting innovation. Swimming is nor an antique; its a sport.

thewookiee
June 12th, 2008, 04:53 PM
Then how about being able to pull on the lane lines for backstroke? Or wear fins and paddles for races too

aquageek
June 12th, 2008, 04:56 PM
Swimming is not an antique; its a sport.

That is well stated indeed.

I was unaware that pulling on the lane lines in back was against the rules. When did that change?

Jazz Hands
June 12th, 2008, 04:56 PM
Haven't we done this before?

The Fortress
June 12th, 2008, 05:41 PM
Haven't we done this before?

The anti tech suit contingent is attempting more innovative arguments in defense of polyester.

thewookiee
June 12th, 2008, 08:57 PM
:dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse: :dedhorse::dedhorse:

3strokes
June 12th, 2008, 09:47 PM
As to you Fort, forget the one handed breast touches, ............

Pray, tell us more about these....................
:D

thewookiee
June 13th, 2008, 07:42 AM
:applaud:
Pray, tell us more about these....................
:D

swimcat
June 13th, 2008, 09:57 AM
just read an article in OGGI italian magasine about lzr. It is made in lake como, Erba . think women's scarves, mens silk ties. they claim the suit is faster because it massages the swimmer's body therefore, lactic acid build up is not a problem. they attribute this to superbiflex, the fabric used to make the suits. they put the cost as 300 euros.
the article goes into detail of the process of making the suit.

TheGoodSmith
June 13th, 2008, 09:57 AM
Actually nylon is superior to polyester for old school mentality and workouts.

Note also.... Compys are the preferred goggle with nylon.

As for the cheatin' rubber suits........ I'm inclined to agree with tomtopo.

Enough is enough. Mens suits should be no more than regular jammers.

I watch the sport to see the battle, the win and whomever's finger nail touches the wall first. This is what is important ..... not the technological advantage.

(no comment on Ande's vampire nails)


John Smith

aquageek
June 13th, 2008, 10:15 AM
Out of curiosity, do you think, Smith, that wearing one of these suits would enable a person to go under 2:30 LCM in the 200 free? I can't imagine anyone being unable to go a 2:30 but I'm petty sure there are a few flailers out there who struggle with this time standard, and therefore a LZR might be of benefit.

3strokes
June 13th, 2008, 07:06 PM
just read an article in OGGI italian magasine about lzr. It is made in lake como, Erba . think women's scarves, mens silk ties. they claim the suit is faster because it massages the swimmer's body


Is it manufactured by Sofia Loren?
I wouldn't mind that kind of massage.

[/quote]

Chris Stevenson
June 13th, 2008, 07:51 PM
The integrity of our sport is on the line here.

I don't know about integrity and all that philosophical mumbo jumbo. I wish all these suits weren't around but I am also a pragmatist.

I have two practical concerns that just may need to be fixed by some sort of regulation unless the suits become more affordable and/or durable.

I am worried about what the very high cost and short life of the suit will do to (a) the accessibility of swimming at the age group level and (b) men's college swimming programs. Both of these could have serious impacts on swimming in the US.

So I could see some sort of restrictions at age group and NCAA meets, unless the suits become much more affordable, and durable.

As an aside, I talked to the U of Richmond coach about the LZR this morning at some length. He was actually not that convinced that, performance-wise, the LZR represents a quantum leap over the FS-Pro (which he DOES think was a big improvement over the FSII). And he was a little torn -- no pun intended -- about whether to rent the suits for his swimmers going to trials. On the one hand, you want the best available tech...on the other hand, he saw enough suit malfunctions to make him wary.

A blown start or turn or taper, these things you train to avoid and are under the control of the athlete/coach. That is not the case if the suit fills up with water.

He also worried that Blueseventy would be bought by Nike or some other big shot, who would then jack up the price of THOSE suits.

chowmi
June 15th, 2008, 10:39 AM
Enough is enough so I won't start a new thread...interesting article in The Economist, 06-14-20/2008 on page 100 entitled "Making No Waves". See also cool picture of woolly mammoth hairball on same page.

quicksilver
June 15th, 2008, 12:58 PM
I am worried about what the very high cost and short life of the suit will do to (a) the accessibility of swimming at the age group level and (b) men's college swimming programs. Both of these could have serious impacts on swimming in the US.



A really valid point. A college team with deeper pockets could undoubtedly have an advantage if they were able to outfit everyone in LZRs.
One could argue that a competitor only needs pair of goggles, a polyester suit, and some skills to back it up.

But on the other hand, when races come down to tenths and fractions of a second, a techno suit could make all the difference. That's been proven.
College swimming budgets could be further stressed if LZR's become a mandatory part of their team gear.

Technology isn't really the negative. The downside appears to be high cost and limited availability which can make the playing field uneven...especially for swimming programs with limited $ resources.

Maybe at the FINA level (where corporate sponsors are spending big cha-ching)....a $500 disposal suit doesn't impose a negative impact on the sport in terms of accessibility for every athlete. If Michael Phelps (or whomever) tears a suit, they snaps their fingers and Speedo-usa throws ten more into the duffel bag.


As a masters competitor, in my opinion, if Jane or John Doe wants to wear one...more power to them.:weightlifter:

Allen Stark
June 15th, 2008, 09:25 PM
Brent Rushall has an amazing article on bodysuits http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swimming/bodysuit/2008suit.htm

Jazz Hands
June 15th, 2008, 10:00 PM
Brent Rushall has an amazing article on bodysuits http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swimming/bodysuit/2008suit.htm

Thanks for posting this, Allen. I like the psychological perspective.

ALM
June 15th, 2008, 10:25 PM
Someone here told me yesterday that he ordered an LZR for his son, who is going to junior nationals. He got discounts through his son's age-group coach or team (or both, I'm not sure I completely understood) and by the time it was all said and done he paid $160.00.

So the $550.00 list price for the LZR may be more like the manufacturer's MSRP for a new car... perhaps no one actually pays it.

osterber
June 16th, 2008, 09:57 AM
Someone here told me yesterday that he ordered an LZR for his son, who is going to junior nationals. He got discounts through his son's age-group coach or team (or both, I'm not sure I completely understood) and by the time it was all said and done he paid $160.00.

So the $550.00 list price for the LZR may be more like the manufacturer's MSRP for a new car... perhaps no one actually pays it.

Small hint - that person is mis-informed. Either they're not getting a LZR, or they're not getting it soon.

Speedo reportedly doesn't have enough suits in the pipeline to meet the needs of people like the Canadian Olympic team. Do you really think they're selling them to kids who are at the Junior National level?

-Rick

The Fortress
June 16th, 2008, 10:09 AM
Small hint - that person is mis-informed. Either they're not getting a LZR, or they're not getting it soon.

Speedo reportedly doesn't have enough suits in the pipeline to meet the needs of people like the Canadian Olympic team. Do you really think they're selling them to kids who are at the Junior National level?

-Rick

I know a 13 year old with one. But seems unlikely. Must be confusing it with the Pro or something? Although even Pros don't sell for that little with discounts.

No way are they getting it for $160 though. Team discounts are typically only 10%.

Thanks for the article, Allen. Looking forward to reading it.

Chris Stevenson
June 16th, 2008, 12:33 PM
Brent Rushall has an amazing article on bodysuits http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swimming/bodysuit/2008suit.htm

An interesting article, one that echoes some of my own thoughts about the tech suits. The author's observations on the dearth of sound science behind the manufacturer's claims is correct, in my opinion. Based on my own experiences I am convinced that the effects of the FSII on (my own) performance are minor at best.

One part of the article I found a little dubious was in section #4, specifically about visual detection of turbulent water from still pictures of elite swimmers during performances. Even when at rest, swimmers wearing these suits often exhibit these kind of "bubbles," and clearly there is no turbulence involved. So I think support for the author's contention that shaved skin is the best surface is still lacking.

And, to be fair, I'm sure that Dr. Rushall would be the first to agree that more explicit comparisons should be done in well designed experiments. But it would be hard to account for the psychological aspects that he mentions. It is difficult for a swimmer in briefs to maintain positive thinking in the face of near-universal belief (proven or not) in their efficacy, and the author himself claims that such psychological factors can be even more important than the physical effects of the suit on performance.

I also thought he was too dismissive of the claim of form drag as an explanation of possible benefits of the suit...particularly for masters swimmers!

For myself, I haven't completely given up on tech suits and plan to do a similar testing of the Blueseventy Nero next SCY season, which is the next time I plan to rest & shave for a meet with a trials/finals format. I decided against trying the FS-Pro because I don't like full leg suits and because of the ease of ripping. The LZR is a non-starter for me at its present price, reliability and durability.

Jazz Hands
June 16th, 2008, 12:42 PM
One part of the article I found a little dubious was in section #4, specifically about visual detection of turbulent water from still pictures of elite swimmers during performances. Even when at rest, swimmers wearing these suits often exhibit these kind of "bubbles," and clearly there is no turbulence involved. So I think support for the author's contention that shaved skin is the best surface is still lacking.

Yeah, he's definitely mistaking bubbles for turbulence.

I read some of the articles he referenced regarding first-generation suits last night, and I'm going to try to find more of them today at the library. I read just the abstracts of most of them, and I still had a lot of questions.

The biggest hole in the research is a lack of realistic control groups. Swimmers need to be shaved in the regular suit condition, and they need to be wearing properly fitted competition suits, not just whatever they wore to practice that day. Huub Toussaint specifically mentioned this problem in one of his papers, and he showed pictures of a female swimmer from the study wearing the Fastskin and the regular suit. The regular suit was a poly trainer! Who wears that in a meet?

Dolphin 2
June 16th, 2008, 12:55 PM
Why does MLB prohibit the use of aluminum bats or spitting on baseballs or letting players use steroids (okay - two out of three)? Why does NASCAR prohibit fuel injected engines or certain transmission gear ratios? Why does the PGA disqualify certain golf balls or regulate golf clubs? Why can't basketball players where stilts or use a trampoline? Enough is enough, when a piece of equipment can alter the record books and cheapen the physical accomplishments of every past athlete, it's time to say stop (don't you think?).

The integrity of our sport is on the line here. How about two dolphin kicks for breaststroke or how about adding another arm-stroke to the backstroke turn or allowing IM'ers to turn-over before they touch on the back to breast transition.

I'm against the LZR and any suit that enhances performance and don't think I'll be changing my mind unless they find out swimming naked can make you swim faster.


Did you hear about the Buddhist who refused Novocain during a root canal? His goal: transcend dental medication.

Coach T.

Hey Tomtopo
Welcome to the TSB (Tech Suit Basher’s) Forum***. New members are greatly appreciated and others are warmly encouraged to join!!!

The TSB Forum was established in response to all the negative attitudes about so called “Technical Suits” in swimming and here are some of the main issues:

Here Comes "Robo Swimmer" :shakeshead:
Since the emergence of tech suits, what was once an athletic art of pure and sheer elegance has now become a mechanized spectacle reminiscent of NASCAR complete with all the latest “performance enhancing” features.

Big $$$ Under The Table :shakeshead:
FINA and the suit makers (Speedo, Tyr, Nike, etc.) have a highly questionable business relationship and political corruption is running rampant between these two entities. When it comes to FINA’s approval of swim suits, it's beginning to look like a classic case of "The tail wagging the dog” and the suit makers are reaping the big reward of having swimmers competing in $500 tech suits instead of conventional $20 briefs. Accordingly, the suit makers are raking in big $$$ and getting tons of world wide brand recognition.

Where’s The Water??? :shakeshead:
Of all the issues with tech suits, the main thing is that they take away the feel of being in the water and the comfortable aquatic experience of swimming in briefs has been replaced with an ecchy “taking a bath with your clothes on” sensation. Covering 95% of your body with waterproof material is completely antithetical to the concept of swimming and that alone is enough to toss the body suit idea out the window.

With your help, we can get rid of tech suits and return swimming to it’s grandeur as one of last remaining examples of a true athletic art!!! :groovy:

***The TSB Forum is a privately maintained blog within the USMS.Org site (established using "the principle of Squatter's Rights") and it is NOT affiliated with USMS or any other organization. Never-the-less, it does provide an excellent breeding ground for trolls (such as me!!!) to have a great time venting our ridicule over the tech suit craze (and also be a constructive annoyance to FINA, Speedo, Tyr, Nike, etc).

Dolphin 2

P.S.
Tomtopo, I really like the idea of swimming naked and that should be FINA’s only rule regarding swimwear!!! :drink:

knelson
June 16th, 2008, 01:04 PM
I admit I've only had time to skim Rushall's article, but based on what I saw I get the feeling he went in with the idea that these suits can't really make much difference and emphasized points supporting that notion and dismissed evidence to the contrary. I don't think there's any question there's a lot of hype surrounding the suits, but at the same time at least anecdotal evidence suggests they really do make a difference.

gull
June 16th, 2008, 01:17 PM
Of all the issues with tech suits, the main thing is that they take away the feel of being in the water and the comfortable aquatic experience of swimming in briefs has been replaced with an ecchy ďtaking a bath with your clothes onĒ sensation. Covering 95% of your body with waterproof material is completely antithetical to the concept of swimming and that alone is enough to toss the body suit idea out the window.



You may have addressed this in another post, but have you actually tried a technical suit?

3strokes
June 16th, 2008, 01:18 PM
I know a 13 year old with one. But seems unlikely. Must be confusing it with the Pro or something? Although even Pros don't sell for that little with discounts.

No way are they getting it for $160 though.

Maybe they got it from the same place where you can get a gold Rolex for $25 on the Internet?

hofffam
June 16th, 2008, 01:27 PM
Once again Dolphin pulls a Rush Limbaugh and says whatever he wants, whether the facts agree or not.

1. Mechanized spectacle? Fast suit or not Phelps looks like Phelps. Dara Torres freestyle is beautiful no matter what she wears. If I buy a LZR I won't become a top 10 Master swimmer. And any comparison to the technology-challenged NASCAR is ridiculous.

2. Money under the table? Please tell us how you know this. These companies are of course motivated most to sell more suits. What is FINA interested in? Expanding the appeal of the sport. Serious corruption would cause FINA to require the suits be worn.

3. No one has a 95% coverage suit. Thorpe was one of the few that wore a suit ankles to wrist. The LZR's highest coverage is the highneck bodyskin which leaves the arms and shoulders free to feel the water.

The Fortress
June 16th, 2008, 03:17 PM
[U][B]Where’s The Water? :shakeshead:
Of all the issues with tech suits, the main thing is that they take away the feel of being in the water and the comfortable aquatic experience of swimming in briefs has been replaced with an ecchy “taking a bath with your clothes on” sensation.

:blah::blah::blah:

"The main thing is that they take away ..."

How do you know? Have you tried one? More than once? How can you make this bald assertion in the face of probably a majority of suit wearers who don't agree with this statement? The fact that you think so doesn't make it true. And I haven't seen anything from you, except ridiculous Rush Limbaugh type opinions and NSR embellishment, that give your statements any credence.

The bottom line is that many masters swimmers use and enjoy these suits. Including cheatin' Smith who, despite his pro-brief rhetoric, wore a rare and coveted TYR suit to defeat the other Smith, who was adorned in a Pro, in the 50 free at Nats.

ande
June 16th, 2008, 03:28 PM
john

you were one of the few swimmers
who wore a rubber suit at nationals
TYR

my nails are short again

Ande



Actually nylon is superior to polyester for old school mentality and workouts.

Note also.... Compys are the preferred goggle with nylon.

As for the cheatin' rubber suits........ I'm inclined to agree with tomtopo.

Enough is enough. Mens suits should be no more than regular jammers.

I watch the sport to see the battle, the win and whomever's finger nail touches the wall first. This is what is important ..... not the technological advantage.

(no comment on Ande's vampire nails)


John Smith

TheGoodSmith
June 16th, 2008, 03:31 PM
Brent Rushall has an amazing article on bodysuits http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swimming/bodysuit/2008suit.htm


Personally I think the guy is extremely long winded and off track on much of his information in the article.

The rubber suit helps....... there is NO DOUBT about it. Flotation and body compression are real factors. They are not imagined. Some may not like the feel of it compared to traditional speedo briefs...... but the end results are obvious and clearly faster.

Now..... are they cheating......?......... depends if you are old school. I am convinced they are "equipment" and all WR times with them should have an asterisk next to them. Note: My 50 free (21.1) is probably the same time or slower than Paul's former NR time (21.29) and he used a regular full body..... not that Masters swimming matters.



John Smith

Dolphin 2
June 16th, 2008, 03:43 PM
You may have addressed this in another post, but have you actually tried a technical suit?

Hey Gull:
Iím an ďaquaphileĒ and I took swimming and w-polo in high school P.E. especially because I liked the feel of being in the water and I donít like anything that dulls that sensation. Hence, the idea of wearing a tech suit (or even plain jammers) gets a thumbs down for me. :bitching:

However, one of the guys on the team that I now help manage (but not actually swim on) had one of the Fastskins so I tried it on just for the hell of it. :2cents:

The initial feeling (of having most of my bare body wrapped in close-fitting clothing) was so lousy that I didnít even bother getting in the pool. In fact, I wouldnít even wear a tech suit for a land-based activity (much less for swimming) and these tech suits are a perfect example of the old saying ďGood For NothingĒ. :bitching:

Dolphin 2

aquageek
June 16th, 2008, 03:52 PM
So, you have tried on a USED tech suit on land but haven't used it for swimming? Yet, you feel compelled to speak on their use in the water? What, did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?

There's nothing old school about disliking the natural progression of sport and technology. That's old fool.

The Fortress
June 16th, 2008, 03:54 PM
So I tried it on just for the hell of it. The initial feeling (of having most of my bare body wrapped in close-fitting clothing) was so lousy that I didn’t even bother getting in the pool.

Just as I suspected. All bark, no bite.

geochuck
June 16th, 2008, 04:03 PM
Did I hear right all records set in the LZR are not going to be recognized?

JimRude
June 16th, 2008, 04:21 PM
What, did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night? :rofl:

That is outstanding!!

ALM
June 17th, 2008, 12:55 PM
I'm not sure whether anyone has mentioned this yet or not...

From the Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121323649469366905.html

"On Tuesday (June 10), succumbing to growing demands by Japanese swimmers, the Japan Swimming Federation said swimmers will be allowed to wear the LZR Racer at the Beijing Olympics, a humiliating blow to three Japanese swimwear makers -- Asics Corp., Descente Ltd. and Mizuno Corp. -- who had contracts to equip the national team...."

Paul Smith
June 25th, 2008, 10:54 PM
I'm, testing a Blue Seventy Point Zero3 this week...got it today. I spoke at length with Glenn Mills about the suit yesterday after he used one in Biltmore last weekend:

http://goswim.tv/entries/5355/my-blueseventy.html

I'm really struggling with this...make no mistake this IS a wetsuit...maybe they've come up with a hybrid material, whatever to meet FINA guidelines but its still a wetsuit.

With that in mind a few concerns other than the fact that people will simply be destroying ANY records not swam in one of this new generation of suits:

- Technique; Glenn pointed out that the "old" days of exceptional/technique based swimmers now don't have to worry about body position...its corrected for you.

- Training; I think he's 100% correct that the rest of the "playing field" will all have this technology in years to come and the best trained athletes will prevail...but right now I'm going to feel a bit awkward swimming against someone in an "old" suit.

- Does it even matter that some records were set in different types of suits? Does Janet Evans records swimming in what amounts to a "Pinto" matter in a world where Katie Hoff is using a Ferrarri?

More to come....

Allen Stark
June 26th, 2008, 12:08 AM
I tried a point zero3 and even though I got the size recommended for me it was too big.Too big is really bad in these suits as the water goes in down the back and since they are water tight make you just get heavier and heavier.Dennis Baker told me the Nero Comp was a better suit.I called Blue Seventy and they told me to send my suit back and they'd replace it(try doing that with a once worn Speedo.)

ande
June 26th, 2008, 12:34 AM
guys the point zero 3 + was blue seventy's first swim skin

the nero comp is for pool racing

Syd
June 26th, 2008, 10:20 AM
guys the point zero 3 + was blue seventy's first swim skin

the nero comp is for pool racing

Does that mean the point zero 3 is not for pool racing? And what is the difference between the point zero 3 and the point zero 3+? Is the 3+ just a later version?

Wow, and they don't come cheap either. I can't imagine spending that much on a swimsuit. To be honest, I don't feel I am good enough to wear one yet. I have only being swimming again for just over a year and I have so many improvements to make on my stroke before I can start worrying about the extra tenths of a second from a suit.

Robin Parisi
June 26th, 2008, 11:13 AM
It appears that PointZero3 is knee length, 3+ is full length, and that both are aimed primarily at triathletes; Nero is both short and full length, with multiple style variations, and aimed at triathlestes, open water and pool swimmers.

http://www.blueseventy.com/store/us/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=4

http://www.blueseventy.com/products/list/category/swimskins/

Chris Stevenson
June 26th, 2008, 11:13 AM
Does that mean the point zero 3 is not for pool racing? And what is the difference between the point zero 3 and the point zero 3+? Is the 3+ just a later version?

The 3+ covers the calves; the 3 only goes to the knees.

They are both meant for triathlons where wetsuits are not legal (eg, the IM championships in Kona). So it is intended that you would wear tri shorts or unis under the suit. Compared to the Comp and 10k versions, there may be a difference in thickness as well, but I am not sure. (Thicker may even be better if it means "more buoyant.")

The Nero Comp and 10k are meant for swimming races -- the latter for OW swims, as implied by the name -- and I believe both come in full leg knee-high versions. The zipper on the 10k is not as "streamlined" (hydrodynamic) as on the Comp, otherwise they are identical. All this information comes from Blueseventy, I have not compared the two suits side-by-side.

Paul Smith
June 26th, 2008, 11:24 AM
OK so I went to work out this am and after warming up we went into a set of 12 x 100ís (LCM) @ 2:30; 6 x 50 drill/50 swim, 6 x 50 swim/50 tempo followed by 6 x 50ís @ 1:30 tempo.

All I can tell you is this thing is a wetsuit and its going to play a major part in times for us "bigger" guys. Whereas I was going 1:15+ on the swim/tempo 100ís with my HR around 120 (2 beat kick 1st 50/6 beat 2nd), when I put the suit on I was around 1:07+ with a 2 beat kick the entire 100 and HR stayed the same....bottom line is when fatigued in a race without the suit your legs and body position are going to be lower in the water.

On the 50ís without the suit Iím going 200 pace/feel and am around 31+ with a 4 beat kick, with the suit Iím 28/29 with a 2 beat and HR the same. Fly was 33/30.

Its hard to get your mind off the bubbles in the suit on push-offs. Also did 4 starts with it after workout and again a fair amount of air coming inÖbut after 3 dolphin kicks on free and 9 on fly I was coming up at least 2m further than without the suit.

The reason I went with the PointZero3+ was that the sizing went to "clydesdale"...plus I really am not sure about wearing it for a pool race but did need a new open water skin.

By the way, I spoke with Glenn Mills after he wore the ZeroPoint3+ at the IGLA meet so I went with the same suit....here's his article on the suit:

http://www.goswim.tv/entries/5355/my-blueseventy.html

JimRude
June 26th, 2008, 11:39 AM
FWIW, I can give some of the guys here a sizing indication:

I am 6'2" and about 190 lbs, and it was a real struggle to get a size 30 Nero Comp on (but I did it), I have not worn a LZR so I cannot compare the two in terms of struggling to put it on...

I've heard from Roque that even the breastrokers (like me) are going with the full-length Nero Comp as opposed to the knee-length.

I will be test-piloting the suit in two weeks' time at a meet, and will report back if anyone's interested.

ande
June 26th, 2008, 11:50 AM
wow paul,

that's pretty dramatic
going from
1:15's to 1:07's
and
31's to 28/29
you might turn into a workout swimmer

wonder what it will do to your top end race speed
I have no doubt records will fall

I'm going to wear mine in practice a couple times a week for fast swims to get real used to it, because it does feel different.

Ande


OK so I went to work out this am and after warming up we went into a set of 12 x 100ís (LCM) @ 2:30; 6 x 50 drill/50 swim, 6 x 50 swim/50 tempo followed by 6 x 50ís @ 1:30 tempo.

All I can tell you is this thing is a wetsuit and its going to play a major part in times for us "bigger" guys. Whereas I was going 1:15+ on the swim/tempo 100ís with my HR around 120 (2 beat kick 1st 50/6 beat 2nd), when I put the suit on I was around 1:07+ with a 2 beat kick the entire 100 and HR stayed the same....bottom line is when fatigued in a race without the suit your legs and body position are going to be lower in the water.

On the 50ís without the suit Iím going 200 pace/feel and am around 31+ with a 4 beat kick, with the suit Iím 28/29 with a 2 beat and HR the same. Fly was 33/30.

Its hard to get your mind off the bubbles in the suit on push-offs. Also did 4 starts with it after workout and again a fair amount of air coming inÖbut after 3 dolphin kicks on free and 9 on fly I was coming up at least 2m further than without the suit.

The reason I went with the PointZero3+ was that the sizing went to "clydesdale"...plus I really am not sure about wearing it for a pool race but did need a new open water skin.

By the way, I spoke with Glenn Mills after he wore the ZeroPoint3+ at the IGLA meet so I went with the same suit....here's his article on the suit:

http://www.goswim.tv/entries/5355/my-blueseventy.html

Paul Smith
June 26th, 2008, 12:00 PM
that's pretty dramatic
going from
1:15's to 1:07's
and
31's to 28/29
you might turn into a workout swimmer

Never!

As for the time drops in workout...there is no doubt I was putting some extra effort in but really tried to keep it equal to the swim without the suit. Bottom line is the effort measured by my HR didn't change...

As for FINA approval for use in pools:
"The official FINA letter that approves the pointzero3, the pointzero3+, the nero 10k, and the nero comp swimskins as being legal in all FINA events" is avaiable here: http://www.blueseventy.com/products/detail/pointzero3plus/

Doug Martin
June 26th, 2008, 12:20 PM
All I can tell you is this thing is a wetsuit and its going to play a major part in times for us "bigger" guys. Whereas I was going 1:15+ on the swim/tempo 100ís with my HR around 120 (2 beat kick 1st 50/6 beat 2nd), when I put the suit on I was around 1:07+ with a 2 beat kick the entire 100 and HR stayed the same....bottom line is when fatigued in a race without the suit your legs and body position are going to be lower in the water.

On the 50ís without the suit Iím going 200 pace/feel and am around 31+ with a 4 beat kick, with the suit Iím 28/29 with a 2 beat and HR the same. Fly was 33/30.




uhhh....that's not 2% that's 10%....if that differential exists with respect to the LZR, there could be chaos at Trials...

Paul Smith
June 26th, 2008, 12:48 PM
uhhh....that's not 2% that's 10%....if that differential exists with respect to the LZR, there could be chaos at Trials...


As I said....there was an increased level of effort even though I tried to keep things the same. Full race speed will not have a 10% increase...but I do expect for it to be dramatic.

One other thing about this type of "flotation" device...for big guys like me it really keeps me higher in the water, when your used to swimming SLOW mid season while broken down it should really effect those times.

Doug Martin
June 26th, 2008, 12:53 PM
Understood...even if it's half that for a race....with recent comments by Foster and Hall about the BlueSeventy...will just be interesting to see what Trials competitors do, especially the Speedo swimmers.

gull
June 26th, 2008, 12:57 PM
Paul, did you feel hot in the suit?

knelson
June 26th, 2008, 12:58 PM
This is getting ridiculous!

Kind of funny with all the controversy about availabilty of the Speedo LZR and whether it creates an unfair advantage that it's very likely it isn't even the fastest suit 'available' right now.

Paul Smith
June 26th, 2008, 02:50 PM
Paul, did you feel hot in the suit?

I swam at 6am so no. But will say you do not want to sit around in this thing all day at a meet. As Glenn pointed out in his article...much easier to get on then a FS Pro.

Also, i just spoke with one of the owners and got a bit more info. As Ande said although this suit will work for "pool" meets it really was developed with a triathlete in mind...loser fit to get on/off over a pair of cycling/running shorts faster.

I'm going to go with the Nero instead...

ande
June 27th, 2008, 03:29 PM
in his article Glenn said he didn't train much between Masters Nats and this meet, he modified his glide and wore the blue seventy pointzero
which helped him drop from 2:19 to 2:13 in the 200 scm IM and
from 2:30 to 2:22 in the 200 SCM breast
though some speculate the true reason Glenn swam faster was he was super psyched to impress spectators



By the way, I spoke with Glenn Mills after he wore the ZeroPoint3+ at the IGLA meet so I went with the same suit....here's his article on the suit:
http://www.goswim.tv/entries/5355/my-blueseventy.html

Paul Smith
June 27th, 2008, 05:36 PM
spectators

Translation; Chicks

Midas
June 27th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Translation; Chicks

This is why I'm hoping to drag my wife to the Pacific Masters championships!

JimRude
June 27th, 2008, 06:28 PM
Paul, that new avatar is world class!

geochuck
June 27th, 2008, 06:40 PM
Paul you look like a true Canadian in your new Avatar pic.

ande
June 27th, 2008, 09:26 PM
more on SUIT WARS

Not a suitable week for swim team
Scott Ostler

Thursday, June 26, 2008


(06-25) 20:59 PDT -- You sports historians out there might want to mark down next week on your calendars. That's the week that the last honest Olympic sport will bite the dust, in a pool.

It will happen at the U.S. Olympic swim trials in Omaha, Neb., starting Sunday.

Michael Phelps, Natalie Coughlin and about 40 others will swim their way onto the greatest swim team of all time, a U.S. squad that will be favored to dominate the Olympics for the fifth straight time.

The trials should be a wonderful meet, but under the surface will be big-time turmoil. The Swimsuit Wars are about to get crazy.

And it couldn't happen at a worse time, right when the swimmers are most in need of inner calm and focus.

Instead, there will be a mad scramble for magic swimsuits. Swimmers who aren't locked into a contract with a suit company will be running around like crazed brides-to-be trying to find a gown the night before the wedding.

Swimmers who are locked into contracts might be scrambling to unlock.

The timing is really, really crummy.

"There's a lot of talk (about suits), a lot of pressure and anxiety, kids trying to get their hands on suits," one top collegiate coach told me. "Turmoil might be the right word. Or frenzy."

A few lucky swimmers seem to be settled, at least until the next rumor/buzz, which you're about to read. Phelps and Coughlin are well-paid Speedo endorsees, so barring a last-minute development, they'll wear the hot-hot-hot Speedo LZR Racer.

Most swimmers, though, have had only a taste of the new suits, and they are forced to decide on the fly which of the three - the Speedo, or suits by Tyr and Nike - are fastest. Once the decision is made, the swimmer must lay his or her hands on a suit, and then must hope he or she has time to practice in the suit in order to adjust stroke and technique, because the new suits alter the shape of the body and change balance and buoyancy.

But wait, there's more! A California company named blueseventy has unleashed a suit that might be speedier than the Speedo. The radar of every coach and swimmer is buzzing. If you want to attract a crowd in Omaha, just reach inside your overcoat and say, "Pssst! blueseventy?"

What would Phelps and Coughlin do should it become apparent that the blueseventy suit is faster than the LZR?

Ideally, all this scrambling to find the right suit and learn how to swim in it would have taken place a year or two ago, so as not to disrupt the trials and the Olympics.

In fact, U.S. head coach Mark Schubert, in a phone news conference Wednesday, asserted that the "smart" coaches and athletes already have tested suits and made decisions.

"We gave all the top coaches the heads-up in December that this was going to be coming," Schubert said, "and most of our best coaches and athletes are well prepared for it."

The Speedo suits weren't available until mid-February, and on a limited basis. At some meets, where the suits were loaned to swimmers, demand exceeded supply. And the blueseventy is new to almost everyone. So even some smart swimmers and coaches are caught in a last-minute scramble, at a bad time.

"Speedo and the other companies aren't interested in what would be the right thing," one coach told me. "They're interested in making money. I think (the timing) is irresponsible, quite honestly."

When might have been a good time? Never would have been good.

As one prominent swimming insider told me, of the new suit technology, "I feel it's cheating. It's disrespectful of the history of the sport."

And unnecessary. Why do we need this high-tech stuff? Why does swimming have to become golf? Why couldn't swimming stay pure and basic? Well, because of money.

Speedo and Nike help finance big-time swimming (money to coaches, athletes, swim organizations), so nobody will stand up and say, "Sorry, Speedo/Nike/Tyr, we won't allow high-tech to invade our sport."

The Suit Wars will continue, with the swimmers, and fans, held hostage.

Nike and Tyr swimmers panicked when the new Speedo suit hit town, breaking records like crazy (of the 37 world records broken since the LZR was unveiled in February, 35 were in the Speedo). Erik Vendt, a potential medalist in the 1500 freestyle, jumped his Tyr contract to wear a Speedo, and Tyr sued Vendt - and Speedo and USA Swimming and Schubert.

Nike, perhaps realizing its swimsuit isn't as fast as the Speedo, recently gave seven of its endorsees, including backstroker Aaron Peirsol and breaststroker Brendan Hansen, permission to wear a Speedo at the Trials. But at the Olympics, will Nike force its guys to climb back into (relatively) sluggish Nikes?

By the way, if you wonder why mankind can't cure cancer or solve the energy problem or climate crisis, it's because all the world's scientists have been diverted into R&D of the swimsuit.

And cap.

Nike just came out with a new high-tech swim cap. Seriously.

A coach who will be coaching at the trials told me, "I'll just say to my swimmers, 'Here, put on a new suit, and a new cap, and good luck. Don't let it bother you.' "


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/25/SP9T11EUCC.DTL

chowmi
June 27th, 2008, 09:59 PM
Blueseventy nero: Female sizing?

Anyone know how the nero size runs? Not interested in the Pointzero 3/3+; only the nero (not 10K).

The size chart says I can wear about 3 different sizes, depending on chest, waist, height (assuming this is not the measure-around-your-crotch-and-over-your-shoulder Speedo measurement), and weight. Blueseventy emailed me back and said I was a 26. But according to all other measurements I could be a 22 or 24. Anyone have any experience with sizes yet? FYI, I wear a 26L Speedo FS PRo with zipper back.

In the meantime, I am searching for a local store that might have one in store to try on.

chowmi
June 27th, 2008, 10:04 PM
Great post by Ande. I can't wait for the cap. Wasn't there a cap with built-in goggles? Or am I mistaking that with the kiddie aisle/season swim section? I wonder if that will make a comeback.

Allen Stark
June 27th, 2008, 10:43 PM
In the 70s there was the Gogglecap.It was a really good product.In the late 90s Speedo came out with "The Mask" which was also a gogglecap.It was poorly made and ugly.

Ken Classen
August 14th, 2008, 11:51 AM
The LZR is now a political debate as The American Spectator chimes in. In the forthcoming Presidential debates, will the candidates be asked if there for or against the LZR? Hey I'd like to know.


http://www.theamericanprowler.com/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13689

ande
August 14th, 2008, 02:11 PM
hi michelle

I didn't write it
just sharing an article I stumbled upon



Great post by Ande. I can't wait for the cap. Wasn't there a cap with built-in goggles? Or am I mistaking that with the kiddie aisle/season swim section? I wonder if that will make a comeback.

JonasTris
August 14th, 2008, 02:44 PM
George W. apparently said he loves blueseventy. :-)

http://thewaterisopen.blogspot.com/2008/08/first-days-at-2008-olympics.html

Dolphin 2
August 15th, 2008, 11:01 AM
The LZR is now a political debate as The American Spectator chimes in. In the forthcoming Presidential debates, will the candidates be asked if there for or against the LZR? Hey I'd like to know.


http://www.theamericanprowler.com/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13689


I've talked about this subject 'til I'm blue in the face and I'm glad there even more people out there who agree with me. :blah: :oldman:

Dolphin 2

aquageek
August 15th, 2008, 11:08 AM
I've talked about this subject 'til I'm blue in the face and I'm glad there even more people out there who agree with me. :blah: :oldman:

Dolphin 2

That article is bunk, along with any theories that put Phelp's remarkable achievements in doubt. Everyone at the Olympics is in a hot suit so it's a totally level playing field. The guy in the article swam for the US almost 50 years ago, you have no competitive swimming experience so these statements are meaningless. There always has to be one black-cloud over every great accomplishment, I guess you can be proud of your role in that.

Sports evolve, technology advances, either get with the program or become/continue to be a noodler.

taruky
August 15th, 2008, 11:52 AM
Bah! The same can be said for full body suits generally. Or the "paper suits" of yore, or even basic speedos. What about caps and goggles? Then there are wave dampening lane lines (I think they even double the lane lines in elite-level swimming, don't they) and starting blocks. All these things allowed dramatic improvements over the times people swam before them.

As Ande said in another thread, the genie is out of the bottle and it will be well-near impossible to stuff it back in.

Also, some of your comparisons just aren't fair. For example, aluminum bats are prohibited in MLB because they give the hitters an unfair advantage over the pitchers. No such concern with swimming (edit--I guess there is the "haves" and the "have nots" which is a legitimate gripe but not one I agree with). I would guess that golf clubs and balls are regulated (at least in part--I'm just speculating here) because certain clubs and balls can correct for deficiencies in players strokes that takes some of the skill out of the game. Unlike neoprene wetsuits, I'm pretty sure that the LZR does not do the swimming for you...

I personally don't want to go back to the stone ages of swimming. I'm very happy with the technological progress our sport has made over the years.

By the way, in the interests of full disclosure, all I own is a pair of FS Pro Jammers. I don't have any present plans to buy a full bodysuit and I don't care if others do or don't.

Ah, but I would argue that a buoyancy aiding swimsuit does correct deficiencies for some swimmers. Isn't maintaining balance part of swimming skill? It stands to reason that some swimmers are better at keeping the hips up than others. Not much different than allowing some swimmers to use hand paddles the size of Phelps' hands.

Dolphin 2
August 15th, 2008, 02:22 PM
That article is bunk, along with any theories that put Phelp's remarkable achievements in doubt. Everyone at the Olympics is in a hot suit so it's a totally level playing field. The guy in the article swam for the US almost 50 years ago, you have no competitive swimming experience so these statements are meaningless. There always has to be one black-cloud over every great accomplishment, I guess you can be proud of your role in that.

Sports evolve, technology advances, either get with the program or become/continue to be a noodler.

Hey Aquageek
What kind of "technology" does swimming require?

All it takes is a well developed body and a pool.

Technology is for science and industry, but athletics is about a person's ability. :dedhorse:

By the way, once the '08 Olympics are over, the suit makers will have gained tons of "Brand Exposure", "Product Placement", and other "Infomercial" spin offs from Phelps winning Gold Medals. Incidentally, all Mark Spitz got was his mug on the front of Wheaties.

I can see their ads: "Speedo - The suit that won 7 Gold Medals in '08." :party2:

Dolphin 2

aquageek
August 15th, 2008, 02:44 PM
Hey Aquageek
What kind of "technology" does swimming require?

All it takes is a well developed body and a pool.

Technology is for science and industry, but athletics is about a person's ability. :dedhorse:

By the way, once the '08 Olympics are over, the suit makers will have gained tons of "Brand Exposure", "Product Placement", and other "Infomercial" spin offs from Phelps winning Gold Medals. Incidentally, all Mark Spitz got was his mug on the front of Wheaties.

I can see their ads: "Speedo - The suit that won 7 Gold Medals in '08." :party2:

Dolphin 2

Dolphin:

Once again your ignorance of basic facts is truly astounding.

First, you certainly know that Spitz had enormous commercial marketing success from his run in 1972, so much that he completely changed his career focus due to the influx of money. Mark Spitz, to his credit, enjoys enormous success TO THIS DAY, based on what he did almost 40 years ago. And you think all he got was a Wheaties box, crazy. He made $7m USD in the two years following the Olympics. That's a lot more than Wheaties.

Spitz signed as a spokesperson for the Schick Company, the California Milk Advisory Board, Adidas, Speedo and countless other companies making everything from swimming pools to men's underwear. A poster featuring Spitz wearing his swimsuit and seven gold medals made him the hottest pin-up since Betty Grable.

Second, "all it takes is a well developed body and a pool?" Are you high? You don't think technology plays into both a well developed body and pools? Have you been to a modern pool lately? Have you seen these swimmers train? What is low-tech about that? Just because you and tjburk are still living la vida loca on the Jack Lalaine juice diet doesn't mean the rest of the sporting world hasn't advanced.

Once again, please stop fabricating facts. Might I suggest you spend some time around elite level athletes before you make such bizarre assertions. Heck, spend some time at a pre-school age guppy lesson, for that matter.

hofffam
August 15th, 2008, 03:12 PM
Dolphin - I won't be as scolding as aquageek is. But really - technology (or science perhaps) is a critical factor in developing our bodies.

Without pioneering research by Doc Counsilman and continued by many - swimming speed might have advanced only via trial and error. Example: sculling was widely believed to be a major factor in swimming efficiency. But research showed it was not - it was more efficient to simply push water backwards as straight as possible. Those science driven improvements are still all about the body moving through the water.

What about the science with diets? Lactate tolerance?

The technology of goggles - which caused the single most significant improvement in swimming in the last 50 years?

I think the new suits are an unnerving development. But I most dislike its likely impact on non-elite age group swimming, not the suits themselves. The suit is still a passive component of swimming. Maybe they create flotation by trapping air under rubber-like panels even though the suits don't actually float.

Dolphin 2
August 15th, 2008, 03:33 PM
Maybe the makers of BIC Pens should come up with a gimick of their own by developing a faster pencil and then solicit top science, engineering, and mathematics students to promote it by claiming it helped them solve physics problems in record time. OOOhhh I can see it now -Joe Schmoe set a new world's record for completing the SAT. :doh:

However, if you really want to apply technology to swimming, just have someone develop a video game where the players control virtual swimmers and Intel can take some of the credit for setting a new world's record.

As a plus, the Olympics can be held entirely on line (without regard to whether the host country is run by a bunch of Communists). :shakeshead:

Dolphin 2

geochuck
August 15th, 2008, 03:37 PM
What we need is golf ball dimpled technology applied to swim wear. It can also be applied to bic pens to make the little ball write faster.

LindsayNB
August 15th, 2008, 03:51 PM
I think the new suits are an unnerving development. But I most dislike its likely impact on non-elite age group swimming, not the suits themselves. The suit is still a passive component of swimming. Maybe they create flotation by trapping air under rubber-like panels even though the suits don't actually float.

In another thread, and I've forgotten which one or I would go back to it, I asked whether it would be a good thing if FINA allowed fins to be used in competition. Hulk drew a distinction between suits and fins that I didn't really understand but seemed arbitrary to my mind. Perhaps an even better question would be, would it be a good thing if FINA were to remove the no buoyancy rule. There's a lot of debate about whether the new suits increase buoyancy by trapping air either inside the suit or on the surface, or whether swimmers just feel "like" they are more buoyant. In any case, buoyant suits are just one possible technological advancement that could help swimmers swim faster, just like the current suits.

Is there some distinction why it is good to approve the current suits but it wouldn't be good to approve more buoyant suits?

aquageek
August 15th, 2008, 04:05 PM
What we need is golf ball dimpled technology applied to swim wear. It can also be applied to bic pens to make the little ball write faster.

This is actually an intriguing idea. I have no clue on physics and can't understand why something with all that extra surface area goes farther than something smooth. Could the same be said of dimpling swim suits? Do we have any physicists out there that can explain this in terms a 2nd grader can understand?

Tim L
August 15th, 2008, 05:07 PM
Check this website for an explanation of golf ball dimples - http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Sports/instructor/golf-01.html

It would be funny to see a dimple suit, but I doubt it would work unless you have a round spinning object that is moving at a very high rate of speed. I thought the dimples also helped golf balls spin more which helped with lift, but the web site doesn't really comment on that.

Tim

Ripple
August 15th, 2008, 05:53 PM
I have lots of natural "golf ball dimples" on my legs, but it doesn't seem to make me swim any faster. :D

beluga
August 15th, 2008, 06:07 PM
However, if you really want to apply technology to swimming, just have someone develop a video game where the players control virtual swimmers and Intel can take some of the credit for setting a new world's record.


WII Swimming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fWdAhxPng8&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJclxZoVnew