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ALM
June 20th, 2008, 11:37 PM
From the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/18/sports/othersports/18swimmer.html



A Disabled Swimmer’s Dream, a Mother’s Fight
By ALAN SCHWARZ
Published: June 18, 2008

SAN DIEGO — As Kendall Bailey swims, his praying-mantis limbs flapping him forward, something about the water disguises his many maladies: cerebral palsy, mental retardation, autism and more. Only in a swimming pool do they dissolve and allow his troubled body and mind to be all but normal. He is happy, safe and possibly the fastest disabled breaststroker in the world....

Dolphin 2
June 23rd, 2008, 01:17 PM
From the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/18/sports/othersports/18swimmer.html

The article in the link seems to be another disturbing example of how the psychiatric profession may be getting out of hand.

It says the child has been diagnosed with cerebral palsy, mental retardation, autism, and more. This is a pretty big truck load of c_ _ _ to shovel and I would like to know how many second, third, fourth, or fifth opinions the mother of this child has obtained on her son’s condition. :doh:

As being part of a military oriented family, I am quite interested with helping disabled veterans of the war in Iraq and Vietnam get accurate and qualified diagnosis of their conditions. I can tell you that the U.S. government is playing the “Mental Illness” card right and left instead of spending time to render anything resembling a legitimate diagnosis. :shakeshead:

Way too often, the medical profession considers anyone with an abnormal physical condition to be afflicted with some kind of mental illness and they always have some kind of psychiatric label (______ Disorder) to slap on their quacky diagnosis. :shakeshead:

If your child or another member of your family (especially a former member of the military) is showing indications of an obscure physical disability, be careful as a goat chewing on a thorny bush when it comes to accepting anything the medical profession says –especially if their “diagnosis” is that the person is experiencing a form of mental illness and recommending psychiatric treatment. :shakeshead:

Dolphin 2

Dolphin 2
June 25th, 2008, 02:03 PM
I’ve been giving quite a bit of thought to this article. If the kid has been able to learn to swim (even at very basic level), he must actually have better cognitive skills than they are giving him credit for. Even for normal adults, learning "Swimming 101-A" can be a difficult challange.

I am somewhat skeptical about the diagnosis of severe mental retardation/autism and maybe he could benefit from a warm social environment (with some compassionate mentoring) instead of more useless psychiatric labeling.

Anyway, I’m glad that he has found a source of joy in his life through swimming. :wine:

Dolphin 2

tjburk
June 25th, 2008, 02:37 PM
And just what would your Doctorate be in to give such worldly advice? I kind of find your tone condescending here.....sorry if that's not the way you meant it....but that's the way I took it!

Sounds to me like after 19 years of doctors and I am sure a lot of tests....he probably has all of the above without very many questions.

Dolphin 2
June 25th, 2008, 02:56 PM
And just what would your Doctorate be in to give such worldly advice? I kind of find your tone condescending here.....sorry if that's not the way you meant it....but that's the way I took it!

Sounds to me like after 19 years of doctors and I am sure a lot of tests....he probably has all of the above without very many questions.

Hey Tjburk
I don’t need a doctorate to be skeptical about the sorry state of the medical profession and the all too high risk of someone being misdiagnosed with a psychiatric disorder instead of finding out what's really wrong.

In fact, the risk of being injured (or possibly dying) due to a medical error is now even greater than a car wreck. Just Google "Medical Malpractice Lawsuits" and you'll see the magnitude of the problem. On this note, here’s an article on the sorry state of the health care system: :shakeshead:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/23/MNUK11C28G.DTL

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article/comments/view?f=/c/a/2008/06/23/MNUK11C28G.DTL

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/25/BAB111EUFF.DTL&tsp=1

It’s becoming more convenient for doctors to just slap a psychiatric label on the patient rather than take time to do a legitimate diagnosis.

And when it comes to “compassionate care”, HMOs and their doctors view the patient with the moral equivalent of just another junk car to be run through the scrap metal shredder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHKBa_JvUAo

Dolphin 2

Iwannafly
June 25th, 2008, 03:09 PM
Hey Tjburk
In fact, the risk of being injured (or possibly dying) due to a medical error is now even greater than a car wreck.

It would take a whole lot of data and some impressive writing to convince me of this. Do you have any sources for this claim?

tjburk
June 25th, 2008, 03:16 PM
The San Francisco Chronicle? There is a widely read Medical Journal.....NOT!

Where are the facts to back up these ludicrous accusations?

This kid is 19 years old....You actually expect us to believe that he could have been misdiagnosed for Cerebral Palsey and all of that other stuff?

I for one being a retired Vet hope like hell I never come under your care!

And by the way....where in any of his problems was mentioned about a psychiatric disorder......Every one of the problems I read about was physical.....including Autism (read up on it) and mental retardation!

gull
June 25th, 2008, 03:28 PM
I don’t need a doctorate to be skeptical about the sorry state of the medical profession and the all too high risk of someone being misdiagnosed with a psychiatric disorder instead of finding out what's really wrong.

Apparently you don't need an education, either.

His problems are neurological, not psychiatric. And as the parent of a disabled child myself, I daresay his mother has left no stone unturned when it comes to his medical care.

Dolphin 2
June 25th, 2008, 03:31 PM
It would take a whole lot of data and some impressive writing to convince me of this. Do you have any sources for this claim?

Hey Iwannafly & Others:
Here're the stats to support what I said in the previous post.

Deaths & Injuries Due To Car wrecks:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_02_19.html

Deaths & Injuries Due To Medical malpractice:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

http://www.tortdeform.com/archives/2007/11/medical_malpractice_reform.html

http://www.drivonlaw.com/html/med-malpractice.html

The site for the Institute Of Medicine (IOM) has more details than I can furnish here.

http://www.iom.edu/?id=4117&redirect=0

Dolphin 2

aquageek
June 25th, 2008, 03:34 PM
Hey everyone, Tom Cruise makes an appearance on our forum. Dolphin 2 has gone from talking about one topic he has no experience or knowledge of (swimming) to another (the medical profession). Stay tuned, next week he'll tell us all about nuclear physics because he owns a toy gyroscope.

When you can google, who needs to go to skuul?

Iwannafly
June 25th, 2008, 03:38 PM
You can't really compare the aggregate (or average for that matter) number of deaths for those since there is no mention of the total number of drivers or the total number of hospital stays. The only valid statement you can make with the sources you provided is that more people died of medical errors than died in traffic accidents. The "risk" of dying from each cause is also a funtion of the number of participants in each activity.

tjburk
June 25th, 2008, 03:39 PM
Hey Iwannafly & Others:
Here're the stats to support what I said in the previous post.

Deaths & Injuries Due To Car wrecks:
http://www.bts.gov/publications/national_transportation_statistics/html/table_02_19.html

Deaths & Injuries Due To Medical malpractice:
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/11856.php

http://www.tortdeform.com/archives/2007/11/medical_malpractice_reform.html

http://www.drivonlaw.com/html/med-malpractice.html

The site for the Institute Of Medicine (IOM) has more details than I can furnish here.

Dolphin 2

What do Deaths & Injuries Due To Car Wrecks and Deaths & Injuries Due To Malpractice have to do with being diagnosed with Cerebral Palsey or Autism? Please explain that one to me!!!!!

Iwannafly
June 25th, 2008, 03:39 PM
Hey everyone, Tom Cruise makes an appearance on our forum. Dolphin 2 has gone from talking about one topic he has no experience or knowledge of (swimming) to another (the medical profession). Stay tuned, next week he'll tell us all about nuclear physics because he owns a toy gyroscope.

When you can google, who needs to go to skuul?
Don't you mean nuculer physics. Gyroscopes are cool. Sorry, I have a bad habit lately of thread-jacking.

Dolphin 2
June 25th, 2008, 04:19 PM
Hey everyone, Tom Cruise makes an appearance on our forum. Dolphin 2 has gone from talking about one topic he has no experience or knowledge of (swimming) to another (the medical profession). Stay tuned, next week he'll tell us all about nuclear physics because he owns a toy gyroscope.

When you can google, who needs to go to skuul?

Hey Aquageek
What exactly is YOUR scientific expertise on anything I've discussed here? Have you ever served as an expert witness in providing court testimony?

Although I'm not a medical professional, I have in fact backed up my statements (about the risk of being a victim of medical malpractice) with solid evidentiary sources and if being proved wrong as Hell frustrates you, that's your problem. :cry: :cry: :cry:

By the way, if you think Tom Cruise is some kind of "nut case" for bashing the psychiatric profession, just try it for yourself. Just set up an appointment with a doctor and have him/her write you a prescription (they're pushing psych meds like canday) for a few capsules of Prozac (or any other SSRI or antidepressant).

I can guarantee you that within one week, instead of being "Happy as a lark" you will be kicking down the door for assistance in getting off the stuff -and over the horrible side effects. :(

Dolphin 2

gull
June 25th, 2008, 04:31 PM
Here is a message board where you might actually be able to contribute meaningfully to the discussion:

http://www.liveboards.com/mb/server/board.cgi?b=107638

aquageek
June 25th, 2008, 04:37 PM
Although I'm not a medical professional...

Really? Shocking.

Almost as shocking as when you stated you don't swim competitively, have never been in a tech suit in the water. But, wait, you know you'd be a good swimmer because your PE teacher in 1969 said you had a good sidestroke.

Tom Cruise? Good grief man, next thing you know you'll be using Mel Gibson as your expert on religious tolerance.

FYI - people who take anti-depressants are not interested in being "happy as a lark." That speaks to your fundamental lack of knowledge on this topic. If you've actually been around a person with severe depression you'd not say something as idiotic as this.

Dolphin 2
June 25th, 2008, 04:49 PM
Apparently you don't need an education, either.

His problems are neurological, not psychiatric. And as the parent of a disabled child myself, I daresay his mother has left no stone unturned when it comes to his medical care.

Gull
On the subject of disabled children -especially those purportedly afflicted with “autism”, here’s an article that tends to disprove the "crisis" (that we're always hearing about in the media) between the MMR vaccine and autism:

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/mmr_autism_factsheet.htm

http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/cc-mmr.htm

http://www.medpagetoday.com/tbindex.cfm?tbid=669

The vaccine/autism causation seems to be another label being promoted by psychiatry rather than the result of a scientifically legitimate analysis of the childhood patients.

Dolphin 2

aquageek
June 25th, 2008, 04:53 PM
The vaccine/autism causation seems to be another label being promoted by psychiatry rather than the result of a scientifically legitimate analysis of the childhood patients.

Here's another of your experts promoting this - Jenny McCarthy, the former Playboy Playmate. You left her out. She's not a medical professional either, like you. Knowing your love of the Google, turn off safe search and see her credentials to speak on the topic.

scyfreestyler
June 25th, 2008, 05:12 PM
I've got a call into Dr. Phil. We should have all the answers shortly.

Dolphin 2
June 25th, 2008, 05:14 PM
Here's another of your experts promoting this - Jenny McCarthy, the former Playboy Playmate. You left her out. She's not a medical professional either, like you. Knowing your love of the Google, turn off safe search and see her credentials to speak on the topic.

Hey Aquageek
McCarthy would look great (in a bikini) -especially on a USMS team, however I'm not sure what her position really is on the subject of autism and vaccines. :dunno:

Sounds like it caused her (and her husband) a lot of grief. :violin:

Dolphin 2

SwimsWithAFist
June 25th, 2008, 05:15 PM
Gull
On the subject of disabled children -especially those purportedly afflicted with “autism”, here’s an article that tends to disprove the "crisis" (that we're always hearing about in the media) between the MMR vaccine and autism:

...
The vaccine/autism causation seems to be another label being promoted by psychiatry rather than the result of a scientifically legitimate analysis of the childhood patients.

Did you happen to read the references you provided? The third one starts out with:


Researchers from the Yokohama Rehabilitation Center in Japan and the Institute of Psychiatry in London evaluated children in Japan during a period when the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine was offered and when it was no longer used to assess any link between the vaccine and cases of autism. The research, published in Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, showed that on a population level there is no link.

So your claim that Psychiatrists are promoting this theory is wrong according to the references you provided, since they show that a study done by Psychiatrists showed that there is no link. I don't know why we bother. Your posts are more and more "out there" every day.

gull
June 25th, 2008, 05:24 PM
The MMR vaccine protects children against dangerous, even deadly, diseases.

Because signs of autism may appear at around the same time children receive the MMR vaccine, some parents may worry that the vaccine causes autism.

Carefully performed scientific studies have found no relationship between MMR vaccine and autism.

CDC continues to recommend two doses of MMR vaccine for all children.

FYI the CDC is part of the very same medical profession that, according to you, is in a "sorry state."

aquageek
June 25th, 2008, 05:26 PM
Hey Aquageek
McCarthy would look great (in a bikini) -especially on a USMS team, however I'm not sure what her position really is on the subject of autism and vaccines.

Same as yours.

scyfreestyler
June 25th, 2008, 05:38 PM
McCarthy and her MMR/Autism comments have been the subject of Dr. Dean Edell's criticism for some time now. I won't go into all of his reasoning, although there is plenty of sound research on his side. Suffice to say, Jenny knows not what she is talking about.

Dolphin 2
June 25th, 2008, 05:41 PM
When it comes to accepting any physician's diagnosis (especially one involving the claim of mental illnesses such as autism in children), people need to understand the facts and not rely on just what they read in the tabloid media. :doh:

Unfortunately, the U.S. adult population is not scientifically literate and they are predisposed to swallow very piece of junk science hook, line, and sinker.

As an example, here’s a little True or False quiz about the simple issues about energy and the environment:

[1] The U.S. should not build any more nuclear power plants because there’s no way to dispose of the radioactive waste.

[2] Plug-in electric cars will eliminate the need for petroleum based fuels.

[3] The U.S. can eliminate its dependence on fossil fuels by running cars and trucks on ethanol.

[4] Carbon dioxide is the largest contributor to greenhouse gases in the earth’s atmosphere.

[5] Electro magnetic fields from power lines can cause childhood leukemia.

(Try to answer these questions without looking up the answers on the internet.)

Although not explicitly related to medical/health issues, your score on this simple quiz may indicate your level of vulnerability to being the victim of an incompetent doctor's opinion.

Dolphin 2

aquageek
June 25th, 2008, 05:54 PM
...people need to understand the facts and not rely on just what they read in the tabloid media.

Although not explicitly related to medical/health issues, your score on this simple quiz may indicate your level of vulnerability to being the victim of an incompetent doctor's opinion.


Alternatively, it could indicated your predisposition to having the same beliefs on this topic as a Playboy Playmate.

I see we are turning to energy now, since you have been roundly discredited on the medical aspect. Let's just get it out of the way, you have no knowledge, background or experience in the energy related fields. That will save us time up front.

poolraat
June 25th, 2008, 06:55 PM
When it comes to accepting any physician's diagnosis (especially one involving the claim of mental illnesses such as autism in children), people need to understand the facts and not rely on just what they read in the tabloid media. :doh:



Aside from reading about autism, what do you really know about it. Have you experienced living with an autistic child? Until you have, IMO you should keep your opinions to yourself.

mctrusty
June 25th, 2008, 07:14 PM
Another NSR thread jack by Galen. :doh:

One in which he frequently punctuates his paragraphs with emoticons to show how serious he is. :shakeshead:

tjburk
June 25th, 2008, 07:51 PM
Dolphin 2.......as Bugs Bunny would say...."What a maroon! What an ignoranimous!"

Autism is a physical condition linked to abnormal biology and chemistry in the brain. The exact causes of these abnormalities remain unknown, but this is a very active area of research. There are probably a combination of factors that lead to autism.

tjburk
June 25th, 2008, 08:02 PM
By the way Dolphin 2......

You're incredible lack of knowledge on any of these subjects just shows your youth, inexperience and total lack of intelligence by believing the very things that you tell people not to believe. You need to man up and admit that you are in over your head in this Forum!!!!

Since when does testifying as a "Expert Witness" make you an expert? Where are the credentials? You put yourself out there......now back up what you say.

Dolphin 2
June 26th, 2008, 11:31 AM
Alternatively, it could indicated your predisposition to having the same beliefs on this topic as a Playboy Playmate.

I see we are turning to energy now, since you have been roundly discredited on the medical aspect. Let's just get it out of the way, you have no knowledge, background or experience in the energy related fields. That will save us time up front.

Hey Aquageek
Now that you’ve made the comment that "I have no knowledge, background or experience in the energy related fields”, here are three analysis of mine on the subject of energy that were deemed worthy of publishing.

In Power Electronics Magazine on alternative energy:

http://powerelectronics.com/mag/power_energy_challenges_present/index.html

One on waste to energy plants:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/23/BUGSVNBC6.DTL

And one on the minimal environmental effects of wind turbines in “The Industrial Physicist” Magazine - October/November 2002:

http://www.aip.org/tip/1002.html

To view the item, on the page from this link just below the “Departments” heading click on the “Letters” and there’s an analysis by you-know-who.

Doggonnit Aquageek, it looks like I won another round of “Gotcha”!!! :joker:

Dolphin 2

aquageek
June 26th, 2008, 11:52 AM
Doggonnit Aquageek, it looks like I won another round of “Gotcha”!!!

Refresh my memory, what were the previous rounds where you got anyone? Was it when you tried on a buddy's tech suit on land but never swam in it yet are the expert on swimming competition with them? What kind of ding-dong lets someone else try on their $300 tech suit that only lasts a few wears anyway?

Let's keep it real also. Two of your expert opinions are LETTERS TO THE EDITOR. C'mon man, seriously, do you really think we are that dumb?

You have never answered if you are even a USMS member. I don't see you on the member directory.

Dolphin 2
June 26th, 2008, 12:38 PM
Refresh my memory, what were the previous rounds where you got anyone?

Let's keep it real also. Two of your expert opinions are LETTERS TO THE EDITOR. C'mon man, seriously, do you really think we are that dumb?

You have never answered if you are even a USMS member. I don't see you on the member directory.

hey Aquageek
Although two of these publications (waste to energy and the effect of wind turbines) are letters to the editor, they were screened as to fact worthiness the editors did contact me about I obtained the support for my propositions and their general technical merit. There's nothing "dumb" about the readers on this board accepting that.

And the positions that I have taken on these issues are in fact the most acceptable and practical analysis. Do you personally have anything to contradict my reasoning? :dunno:

By the way Mr. Aquageek, since you seem to be so intent on personally putting me down with your sacastic & mudslinging comments, could you kindly state YOUR qualifications to speak on the technical subjects that I have discussed in these three publications? :dunno:

Dolphin 2

aquageek
June 26th, 2008, 12:48 PM
By the way Mr. Aquageek, since you seem to be so intent on personally putting me down with your sacastic & mudslinging comments, could you kindly state YOUR qualifications to speak on the technical subjects that I have discussed in these three publications?

I have absolutely no qualifications on these topics, zero, zippo. I don't know if what you say is right, wrong, or otherwise. I do know you have a history of making assertions, often very technical or requiring significant education, that ultimately are either wrong or totally unsupported.

Also, that you bring up toilets, energy issues, autism, mental health on a swim forum is ridiculous. At least when you show your behinny on swim suits you are sticking to swimming.

Dolphin 2
June 26th, 2008, 01:11 PM
I have absolutely no qualifications on these topics, zero, zippo. I don't know if what you say is right, wrong, or otherwise. I do know you have a history of making assertions, often very technical or requiring significant education, that ultimately are either wrong or totally unsupported.

Also, that you bring up toilets, energy issues, autism, mental health on a swim forum is ridiculous. At least when you show your behinny on swim suits you are sticking to swimming.

Hey Aquageek
Pardon me for making this observation about your latest reply, but the portion of your quotation that I have highlighted in red is a blatant example of a self contradictory statement. :shakeshead:

It reminds me of the saying "The emperor has no clothes". :bolt:

This thread is getting as worn out as an LZR that's been through 20 swims and it's a sure bet that the USMS webmaster is thinking "ENOUGH OF THIS C_ _ _ ALREADY!!!". :rant3:

So this will be my last comment (on this particular subject at least) and I wish everyone happy swimming. :whiteflag: :whiteflag: :whiteflag:

Dolphin 2

Glider
June 26th, 2008, 02:52 PM
Red herring alert. This is sooooo far off topic. Geek, man let him go.


Hey Aquageek
Now that you’ve made the comment that "I have no knowledge, background or experience in the energy related fields”, here are three analysis of mine on the subject of energy that were deemed worthy of publishing.

In Power Electronics Magazine on alternative energy:

http://powerelectronics.com/mag/power_energy_challenges_present/index.html

One on waste to energy plants:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/03/23/BUGSVNBC6.DTL

And one on the minimal environmental effects of wind turbines in “The Industrial Physicist” Magazine - October/November 2002:

http://www.aip.org/tip/1002.html

To view the item, on the page from this link just below the “Departments” heading click on the “Letters” and there’s an analysis by you-know-who.

Doggonnit Aquageek, it looks like I won another round of “Gotcha”!!! :joker:

Dolphin 2

tjburk
June 26th, 2008, 03:51 PM
Hey Aquageek
Pardon me for making this observation about your latest reply, but the portion of your quotation that I have highlighted in red is a blatant example of a self contradictory statement. :shakeshead:

It reminds me of the saying "The emperor has no clothes". :bolt:

This thread is getting as worn out as an LZR that's been through 20 swims and it's a sure bet that the USMS webmaster is thinking "ENOUGH OF THIS C_ _ _ ALREADY!!!". :rant3:

So this will be my last comment (on this particular subject at least) and I wish everyone happy swimming. :whiteflag: :whiteflag: :whiteflag:

Dolphin 2

We can only hope this is true!!!!!!!

craiglll@yahoo.com
June 26th, 2008, 08:32 PM
I used to work with developmentally disabled teenagers while i was in college. Many of those labeled as cerebal palsy were almost to a one not able to swim. Even those who had very minor cases. Now we have expanded the diagnostic filed for Autism, why are we surprised that more children are now labeled as autistic?

Our psychologists said that if the kid can walk his IQ was 4. If he turned his head when some one said his name it was 5. diagnosing developmental diabibilities is still a long way from being exact. But getting better.

Ripple
June 26th, 2008, 11:50 PM
There was a program down at the velodrome here a few years back where teens with cerebral palsy - the less severely affected - were put on track bikes and taught to ride for paralympics. I believe some of them are still doing it, and entering the odd road time trial as well. Someone told me one night why a track bike (fixed gear, no free wheeling) is good for c.p., but his explanation went over my head.

Allen Stark
June 27th, 2008, 12:41 AM
Wow,gone a couple of days and things get even weirder.
First I am a Board Certified Psychiatrist with 31 years of clinical experience.I have been an "expert witness."This young man obviously has exceptional disabilities and exceptional talents when in the water.
Sure I have seen people referred to me where the Primary care Doc thought the problem was primarily Psychiatric when it wasn't.Sure I have seen people with bad side effects from medications,anything strong enough to be helpful is strong enough to be harmful.
Blanket indictments of any group are just stupid.

Iwannafly
June 27th, 2008, 08:51 AM
The bottom line is that this is a wonderful story about a kid who is able to compete at a high level despite some serious problems. There is a lot of serious debate as to any correlation between vaccinations and a perceived increase in the number of autism diagnoses. For that matter, there is a lot of debate over whether the increase in the diagnoses of autism is a result of changing standards or not. I am certainly not qualified to state unequivocally that one side is right or wrong. And, to add to what Allen said, having never met this young man, how can any of us begin to diagnose his problems.
Tell me again what waste-to-energy plants or alternative energy have to do with the discussion about a disabled person competing as a swimmer at the Paralympics!

scyfreestyler
June 27th, 2008, 10:25 AM
There is a lot of serious debate as to any correlation between vaccinations and a perceived increase in the number of autism diagnoses.

I think such a debate would be akin to arguing that the world is flat.

Iwannafly
June 27th, 2008, 10:37 AM
I think such a debate would be akin to arguing that the world is flat.

You may be right. Perhaps I should have chosen my words with a little more thought. I should have said, "There are some who claim a link between thiomersal containing vaccines and autism." How's that? And do you really expect me to believe that the world is some shape other than flat. If I look from my desk out the window, it looks flat to me!;-)