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Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 12:02 PM
Well, I just joined here to get some input about my training régime this summer.. This is the same post I've been putting on a few different sites.


Well, as far as background info about me goes, I'm 16 and I'm a swimmer. Always have been and always will be. This summer I'm basically training for next year as well as training to DESTROY my coach in the mile swim in Ocean City, NJ in a month. He's also training so that I don't beat him. Some healthy competition here and there. ;D
My friends are telling me that I'm 'overexerting myself' because I practice so much. It's only like 6 hours a day though. It can't be -that- bad, can it? Well, here's my main schedule. Oh yeah, weekdays are my more intense practices with Plyometrics on Mondays and Thursdays. Yoga and stretching are for the weekends as recovery days. I mean hardcore Yoga and stretching. About an hour and a half each day.

Here's an example of one of the 'Soul Crushing' sets that I make up myself.



Normal Weekday:
6:00 AM-9:00 AM: Swimming [10,000 yards-ish]
9:00 AM-10:00 AM: Weight Lifting [Different muscles each day. One day might be legs
and biceps. Another might be just all abs. Another would be Back and Triceps.
10:00 AM-10:30 AM: Running
10:30 AM-12:00 AM: Swimming [Not much. 5,500 yards or so]
5:00 PM-6:00 PM: Mondays and Thursdays: Plyometrics

As for food, I have this protein drink during practices. It's actually pretty decent
as far as protein shakes go. Usually some sort of sandwich and some fruit for lunch.
Chicken or whatever for dinner. Small snacks of fruits between each meal bringing my
total to like 2,000 to 2,500 calories a day. I'm never starving, so I guess that's a good
thing.

Example of 10,000 yard set.

500 Warm Up
8 x 75 on the 1:05
100
200
300
400 Twice on the 1:20; 1 minute in between.
300
200
100
12 x 75 Alternate IM on the 1:10 / 1:15
5 x 100 Second stroke on the 1:40
3 x 100 Four Times on the 1:10 / 1:15; 1 minute in between
400 Recovery
100
200
300 Twice on the 1:20
200
100
4 x 200 Pull w/ Buoys, Kick w/ Fins & Board, Build, Warm down



Example of ~5,500 yard set.


4 x 200 Pull, Kick, Drill, Swim
100
200 Five times on the 1:20. 1 minute in between.
300
200 Recovery
4 x 100 three times on the 1:15
2 x 300 Warm down


I don't really see how this is overexerting myself. Like, I'm sore after practice, but you should be, right? That means you've worked your muscles and they are ready to repair themselves bigger and badder than before.
What do you guys think?

So yeah, what do you guys think?

scyfreestyler
June 30th, 2008, 12:04 PM
You swim 400's on the 1:20?

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 12:06 PM
You swim 400's on the 1:20?

100s on the 1:20 pace.

100s: 1:20
200s: 2:40
300s: 4:00
400s: 5:20

That's just how I write it out. As long as I understand it, it's fine for me. Haha.

Shaman
June 30th, 2008, 02:14 PM
What exactly are you training for for "next year."

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 02:17 PM
What exactly are you training for for "next year."

200 and the 500.

-cant sprint for my life-

Shaman
June 30th, 2008, 02:19 PM
The 200 is a sprint.

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 02:21 PM
The 200 is a sprint.

It's more of a controlled sprint for me. Anything that needs a decent pace isn't a sprint to me.

Shaman
June 30th, 2008, 02:24 PM
What are all the Ladder sets on 1:20 base for? What kind of repeats are you swimming?

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 02:28 PM
What are all the Ladder sets on 1:20 base for? What kind of repeats are you swimming?

Don't quite get what you mean..

My pyramids / ladders are all on the base 1:20 because I try to make them on the 1:15, giving me some rest in between.

Shaman
June 30th, 2008, 02:31 PM
I'm asking what purpose those swims are for, what are you accomplishing by doing them.

It sounds to me like you're not training to race fast. You need to swim fast in practice to swim fast in a meet. It's not all about yardage.

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 02:32 PM
I'm asking what purpose those swims are for, what are you accomplishing by doing them.

It sounds to me like you're not training to race fast. You need to swim fast in practice to swim fast in a meet. It's not all about yardage.

For endurance, mainly.

I also do ocean swims, which I am also training for.

ehoch
June 30th, 2008, 02:33 PM
Hoshi -

What is your best 1500 time --- how much yardage are you doing at that pace every week.

What is your target 500 pace ? How much are you doing at that pace every week ?

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 02:36 PM
Hoshi -

What is your best 1500 time --- how much yardage are you doing at that pace every week.

What is your target 500 pace ? How much are you doing at that pace every week ?

Hmm.. Well, I've never swum a 1500 straight before, but my best 500 is a 5:15. I wanna get my 500 down to a 5:00 by the end of the 2009 season.

amyro1234
June 30th, 2008, 02:43 PM
Why so much volume? Are you training for the Olympics?
If you are, you are doing a very good job. I think that 10,000 yard set would make Micheal Phelps cringe!

P.S. You need to increase your calories. 2,000-2,500 calories for 6 hours of trainiing is not enough food. You should probably be eating at least 3,000. You may feel energetic now, but after a couple months of high training and not eating enough, you will start feeling a lot more tired.

Good luck in your training!

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 03:43 PM
Why so much volume? Are you training for the Olympics?
If you are, you are doing a very good job. I think that 10,000 yard set would make Micheal Phelps cringe!

Well, it's really not that bad. It's mostly to bulk up my endurance so that it'll be impossible for me to get tired. Haha.

---Then maybe eventually lessen the yardage and increase the times little by little.

---On another forum I posted this thread on, they said that I should allow myself more rest than I do right now, which is just the weekends. I can't really see myself changing my routine because it's already become old hat for me now. I automatically wake up at 5:45 now and get ready to hit the water.. It's odd.

aztimm
June 30th, 2008, 03:52 PM
Since you are a bit younger than the typical masters swimmer, I think you may receive better tips from a forum more geared to high school swimmers.

There are several people on these boards who use the, "less is more," philosophy. For someone your age, I really have no idea what is best, since I only really started swimming in my late 20s. But when I last posted my workout routine (about 6 months ago), I was told some of the same things, that I'd burnout, etc....and haven't yet. My goals are different than yours though, I'm looking more for overall health and fitness benefit, and not to be breaking any records.

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 03:55 PM
Since you are a bit younger than the typical masters swimmer, I think you may receive better tips from a forum more geared to high school swimmers.

There are several people on these boards who use the, "less is more," philosophy. For someone your age, I really have no idea what is best, since I only really started swimming in my late 20s. But when I last posted my workout routine (about 6 months ago), I was told some of the same things, that I'd burnout, etc....and haven't yet. My goals are different than yours though, I'm looking more for overall health and fitness benefit, and not to be breaking any records.

I had assumed that, but I have yet to find such a forum. :\

hofffam
June 30th, 2008, 04:33 PM
Hoshi - I think you should buy the book Swimming Fastest by Ernest Maglischo. It is perhaps the best swimming techinique and training book available. It includes sections specifically oriented for each stroke and distance of race. It also has a lot of science on how your body uses energy.

Based on my amateur knowledge on this and my two high school age sons - your training is not sensible. My biggest problem is that you do two-a-days with workouts just a few hours apart. You are not giving your body enough time to recover after the early morning workout.

Other items to reconsider:

- a protein shake during exercise probably does very little for you. I suggest you take protein after exercise because research shows your body is more receptive to it in the first hour after exercise
- if you are training for 500s and open water swims it seems you should be doing sets of 200s, 500s, and longer more so than 100s. There is a time for 100s and 50s, even for distance swimmers but I think distance swimmers generally focus on...well....distance.

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 04:51 PM
Hoshi - I think you should buy the book Swimming Fastest by Ernest Maglischo. It is perhaps the best swimming techinique and training book available. It includes sections specifically oriented for each stroke and distance of race. It also has a lot of science on how your body uses energy.

Based on my amateur knowledge on this and my two high school age sons - your training is not sensible. My biggest problem is that you do two-a-days with workouts just a few hours apart. You are not giving your body enough time to recover after the early morning workout.

Other items to reconsider:

- a protein shake during exercise probably does very little for you. I suggest you take protein after exercise because research shows your body is more receptive to it in the first hour after exercise
- if you are training for 500s and open water swims it seems you should be doing sets of 200s, 500s, and longer more so than 100s. There is a time for 100s and 50s, even for distance swimmers but I think distance swimmers generally focus on...well....distance.

I understand the protein drink part, which I also take after I finish everything. The drink really gives me the energy to endure everything and push forward for some reason. As for the 100s and 50s, they are essential for the beginning and the end of ocean swims. You wanna sprint out ahead of the pack so it is less crowded, and you want to sprint into the finish.

Shaman
June 30th, 2008, 05:16 PM
What times are you going on those hundreds? I don't see anything in your workout designed for sprinting speed. So you're doing 15,000 yards a day?

I don't understand how you'll go faster without pushing you're limits in practice.

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 05:32 PM
What times are you going on those hundreds? I don't see anything in your workout designed for sprinting speed. So you're doing 15,000 yards a day?

I don't understand how you'll go faster without pushing you're limits in practice.

How am I not pushing my limits in practice? I'm making the hundreds usually on the 1:15, giving me 5 seconds or so of rest before the next.


Example of 10,000 yard set.
6/23 10,000 Yards
500 Warm Up
8 x 75 on the 1:05
100
200
300
400 Twice on the 1:20; 1 minute in between.
300
200
100
12 x 75 Alternate IM on the 1:10 / 1:15
5 x 100 Second stroke on the 1:40
3 x 100 Four Times on the 1:10 / 1:15; 1 minute in between
400 Recovery
100
200
300 Twice on the 1:20
200
100
4 x 200 Pull w/ Buoys, Kick w/ Fins & Board, Build, Warm down

Example of ~5,500 yard set.

7/3 5,800 yards
4 x 200 Pull, Kick, Drill, Swim
100
200 Five times on the 1:20. 1 minute in between.
300
200 Recovery
4 x 100 three times on the 1:10 / 1:15
2 x 300 Warm down

Shaman
June 30th, 2008, 05:35 PM
How am I not pushing my limits in practice? I'm making the hundreds usually on the 1:15, giving me 5 seconds or so of rest before the next.

What's your fastest 100 Free time?

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 05:38 PM
What's your fastest 100 Free time?

I havn't swum the 100 Free in years. I only do distance events. I'd guess a :57 or :58.

Shaman
June 30th, 2008, 05:49 PM
The closer you can swim to your race pace in practice the faster your race pace will become. That usually means more quality with less yardage. Each swim in practice should be for a purpose. It seems to me that you're just swimming indiscriminate yardage at much slower than race pace.

hofffam
June 30th, 2008, 06:12 PM
I understand the protein drink part, which I also take after I finish everything. The drink really gives me the energy to endure everything and push forward for some reason. As for the 100s and 50s, they are essential for the beginning and the end of ocean swims. You wanna sprint out ahead of the pack so it is less crowded, and you want to sprint into the finish.

Doing 100s and 50s doesn't necessarily mean you are improving your sprinting speed.

As an example a 20x50 set is probably an aerobit set and will not improve sprinting speed at all. Sprinters would do 10 x 50 on 2:00 or even 3:00 - swum at maximum speed.

I understand the need to get out in front of a crowd for an open water race. But I suggest that what matters the most is what happens in the middle 95% of the race. That suggests a focus on endurance and aerobic training.

mulveling
June 30th, 2008, 07:06 PM
I have a hard time believing this...15,000+ yards/day with dry-lands is a comical amount of overkill at 16 unless you're a super-elite age-grouper, and even then it's practically begging for injury, malnourishment, and/or early burn-out.

Six hours exercise must be burning a minimum of 3000 calories, add in 1500-2000 calories for your base metabolic rate, and with an intake of merely 2000-2500 you'd be losing at least a few pounds of body weight a week. It's a questionable strategy in the short-run, and a disastrous one in the long-run.

Also, 16 is a great time to experience LIFE, make mistakes (preferably the kind that doesn't cause burn-out or bodily harm), and learn from them - the earlier you do that, the better. I recommend you cut the training at least in half, focus on technique & quality, and plan to stay the fitness course for life.

anita
June 30th, 2008, 07:16 PM
Also, 16 is a great time to experience LIFE, make mistakes (preferably the kind that doesn't cause burn-out or bodily harm), and learn from them - the earlier you do that, the better. I recommend you cut the training at least in half, focus on technique & quality, and plan to stay the fitness course for life.

I have to agree with this. At 15 I was doing the 6 hour/day workouts in the summer. To say I was burned out by 18 is a huge understatement. I look back and while I'm thankful for the experiences that I did have, I was in no way a balanced teeenager. My entire life revolved around the pool. It's fine if, as mulveling said, you're an elite swimmer and Nationals or Olympics are your goal. But if it is only to beat your coach and swim OW, it's overkill.

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 07:59 PM
Thanks for your advice. I have shown a significant drop in weight. Almost 15 pounds in two months. (Which is a good thing, because I am considered 'overweight', and I look it, too. :\) My energy level hasn't really dropped over these two months, but it may later on in the summer. Who knows. And no, my goals are to perform at a higher level than what I am in right now. In my mind, I believe I can go all the way, but my body, at it's current state, won't be able to handle it, so I need to lose weight. I had thought with this much cardio each day I'd be able to burn fat faster.

I may cut down on some things, like just doing total body in the weight room Mondays and Thursday or something, so I have more recovery. I will probably keep the running, because I still need to lose weight. Plyos can probably still be twice a week. Cutting down on swimming.. Then the second swimming session is probably gone leaving me a good 10,000 yards a day.

From the advice I've taken in, this is probably my best bet for my 2,500 cal/day diet. I don't really want to eat more, because then it feels like going back to the old ways that I'm desperately trying to get out of.. :\



Monday: Swimming (10,000 yds), Lifting (Full Body), Running (30 min.)
Tuesday: Swimming (10,000 yds), Plyometrics (~60 min.)

Wednesday: Swimming (10,000 yds), Running (30 min.)
Thursday: Swimming (10,000 yds), Lifting (Full Body)
Friday: Swimming (10,000 yds), Plyometrics (~45 min.), Running (~15 min.)
Saturday: Recovery / Yoga
Sunday: Recovery / Stretching


I may split the swimming into 7,000 / 3,000 so I get some more recovery after running / lifting / plyos.

Shaman
June 30th, 2008, 08:33 PM
Which is still overkill, talk to Ande or JMiller for effective ways to go fast. Take a look at Ande's Swim Faster Faster and JMiller Fun and Fast workouts.

Hoshi
June 30th, 2008, 08:51 PM
Which is still overkill, talk to Ande or JMiller for effective ways to go fast. Take a look at Ande's Swim Faster Faster and JMiller Fun and Fast workouts.

Taken directly from JMiller:


This type of training is only for improving
sprinting speed... so if your event is over
100, than you may want to consider the
traditional work-outs.

My events are the 200 and the 500.

500 > 200 > 100

LindsayNB
June 30th, 2008, 09:20 PM
Do you ever do race pace sets at your goal 500 pace?
Say 5x100 at your goal pace of 1:00/100m with whatever interval allows you to finish?

Shaman
June 30th, 2008, 09:27 PM
I think JMiller's gone 1:50. in the SCM 200, which converts to a 1:38 or a 1:39 in SCY for the 200. You need speed to swim 200's and 500's. And doing a million repeats on 1:20 at 1:15 pace won't get you there.

aztimm
July 1st, 2008, 12:48 AM
You seem a bit focused on your weight. How overweight are you? Maybe let us know your height and current weight, and others can make comparisons. For some reason, I don't think it is as bad as you think.

Hoshi
July 1st, 2008, 09:46 AM
6'1" - 190

aztimm
July 1st, 2008, 11:49 AM
6'1" - 190

I didn't play any sports in high school, other than a very brief stint on the track team. I was one of those skinny guys, almost no matter what I ate I didn't gain weight, until I graduated and did Army Basic Training. So I hope that others who did do sports in high school will chime in.

That said, I've found that if I want to lose weight, running helps me the most. I have a thread over in the NSR (Non Swimming Related) forums with more info on how I lost some weight recently (I need to add in some updates):
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=10821

Hoshi
July 1st, 2008, 01:31 PM
I used to do football when I was younger as a defensive lineman since I was always the bigger guy. I got into swimming in 6th grade and loved it ever since. Ever since I quit football, I've been trying to lose those pounds that I stacked on during football. :\

ehoch
July 1st, 2008, 01:35 PM
Hoshi -you can get advice on swim training on a discussion baord, but you can not design your training around it. GET A COACH - it's that simple

Hoshi
July 1st, 2008, 01:51 PM
Hoshi -you can get advice on swim training on a discussion baord, but you can not design your training around it. GET A COACH - it's that simple

My coach is on vacation 'till July 20th.

imspoiled
July 1st, 2008, 04:05 PM
Hoshi-

Where in PA are you? I live in the Philadephia area and there are several EXCELLENT age-group & USAS programs in the area. Maybe there's another coach/ program near you you could drop-in on?

I agree with other recommendations here. If you want your 500 to get faster, you need to swim broken swims at/close to your goal time. You are looking to drop 15 seconds in your 500, but you are training at a pace that is getting your body acclimated to swimming slower. Holding 1:15 repeats in practice will not get you to your goal. You need to hold 1:05 comfortably to get your body used to moving at a faster pace.

I'll be at the Ocean City swim on July 26. Hope to see you there!

Hoshi
July 1st, 2008, 10:17 PM
I live in the Collegeville area. Near Eagleville and sorta close to Norristown.

Alright. -adds 50, 100, 200, 100, 50 sets-

I guess I'll need to work my way down to making a :30s on the 50s, 1:05s on the 100s and maybe 2:15s on the 200s. Phew. That may take a while. I can make 50s on the :37 comfortably, so I've got a long ways to go.

And I'll see ya there on the 26th. Bring your A game. ;o

Haha. And I've been trying to convice my mom to put me as Age:21 on my sign up so I can really race my coach, but to no avail.

NotVeryFast
July 2nd, 2008, 10:24 AM
I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but I honestly cannot believe you are doing all that training to swim so slowly. I'm sure you would do better if you reduced the quantity of training, and focused more on some really high quality intense sets.

100 yard reps at 1:15 pace on 1:20 is very slow indeed. I train with a 45 year old guy who reps 1:11 on 1:20 in a 25m pool. His training sessions are approx 30 mins long, 5 or 6 times a week. He gets in, does 400m-600m warm up, then a main set such as 15 x 100m on 1:20 or 8 x 200m on 3:00, then 200m swim down and gets out. He recently raced 17:58 for 1500 LCM, but trains less in a week than you do in one morning.

I used to train a lot more myself and generally just wore myself out, making it hard to judge a taper for a meet. I recently had a shoulder problem that forced me to take some time off swimming, and when I came back I had to be very careful to not do too much hard swimming. At first I was just doing 400m of hard swimming 3 times a week, e.g. 4 x 100 on 2, or 8 x 50 on 60. I had a meet coming up so after 3 weeks of that, I upped it to 6 sessions a week, but still only did 600m of hard swimming each session. I actually got good improvement from this approach, though; instead of getting tired, I got faster every session because I was doing an amount of swimming I could recover from in 24 hours. At the meet I did 2:11 for SCM 200 free, which is less than 2 seconds slower than my best. I'm now training for 400m and 800m free in a few weeks, so I've upped it to 800m of hard swimming each session, and I still feel I'm getting good improvement this way without getting fatigued. I should add that I do 2-3km total swimming each session, the remainder is warm up, drills for technique, and recovery then swim down after the hard set.

imspoiled
July 2nd, 2008, 11:04 AM
I live in the Collegeville area. Near Eagleville and sorta close to Norristown.

Alright. -adds 50, 100, 200, 100, 50 sets-

I guess I'll need to work my way down to making a :30s on the 50s, 1:05s on the 100s and maybe 2:15s on the 200s. Phew. That may take a while. I can make 50s on the :37 comfortably, so I've got a long ways to go.

And I'll see ya there on the 26th. Bring your A game. ;o

Haha. And I've been trying to convice my mom to put me as Age:21 on my sign up so I can really race my coach, but to no avail.

They print the results as an overall ranking by time, so you will be able to see how you rank compared to your coach. Good Luck!

If you're in the General Norristown area, check out Germantown Academy http://www.germantownacademy.net/Library/InfoManage/Guide.asp?FolderID=692 they're in their summer session now, training at several outdoor pools (50M & 25M) throughout the area. My daughter is swimming with them this year and loving it. Workouts are hard--lots of yardage, and they won't let you loaf the interval.

Hoshi
July 2nd, 2008, 03:08 PM
They print the results as an overall ranking by time, so you will be able to see how you rank compared to your coach. Good Luck!

If you're in the General Norristown area, check out Germantown Academy http://www.germantownacademy.net/Library/InfoManage/Guide.asp?FolderID=692 they're in their summer session now, training at several outdoor pools (50M & 25M) throughout the area. My daughter is swimming with them this year and loving it. Workouts are hard--lots of yardage, and they won't let you loaf the interval.

I would if I could, but I wouldn't be able to get a ride there. My parents both work, and since there are only two cars, I can't drive myself to swimming. It's only about a 15 minute bike ride to the nearest pool, which is the high school.

Slid
July 4th, 2008, 03:22 PM
Hi Kevin

I am training currently for an "event" that involves attempting to swim 1 mile in each of 24 consecutive hours. I did one of your workouts this morning and am sure it was excellent preparation - for my intended event.

Please pay the greatest attention to the <NotYeryFast> post above. He is a mentor of mine from a similar UK site. Also, you should take heed of what the other posters are saying about why you think you are training for.

As someone who has fallen into the trap of training to write big numbers in a book, my advice is to try and decide what your objectives are and train accordingly.

(Do a google on David Bedford to see what happens to people who train to train.)