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Paul Smith
July 1st, 2008, 12:38 PM
Glen Mills just forwarded this one:

Olympic nightmare: A red tide in the Yellow Sea

BEIJING: With less than six weeks before it plays host to the Olympic sailing regatta, the city of Qingdao has mobilized thousands of people and an armada of small boats to clean up an algae bloom that is choking large stretches of the coastline and threatening to impede the Olympic competition.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/30/asia/china.php

Then there was this:

Olympics clean-up Chinese style: Inside Beijings shocking death camp for cats

Thousands of pet cats in Beijing are being abandoned by their owners and sent to die in secretive government pounds as China mounts an aggressive drive to clean up the capital in preparation for the Olympic Games.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-528694/Olympics-clean-Chinese-style-Inside-Beijings-shocking-death-camp-cats.html

This was early on, but it sounds like they will have as much as half the amount of cars on the road by banning all government workers from driving:

Olympians air a gripe about Beijing
March 12, 2008

Matt Reed was 1,500 meters into the last segment of the triathlon when he found himself gasping for oxygen. His legs were still pounding away at the pavement, his body pumped up after cruising through the swimming and cycling contests, but his lungs were shutting down.

The 32-year-old triathlete from Boulder, Colo., blames air pollution for triggering his asthma attack during the September track meet.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/12/world/fg-olyair12

knelson
July 1st, 2008, 12:52 PM
Thousands of pet cats in Beijing are being abandoned by their owners and sent to die in secretive government pounds as China mounts an aggressive drive to clean up the capital in preparation for the Olympic Games.

Why did I have to read this? That is terrible.

scyfreestyler
July 1st, 2008, 12:57 PM
What a lovely place.

Warren
July 1st, 2008, 01:20 PM
Why did they pick beijing...?

Kurt Dickson
July 1st, 2008, 08:04 PM
Why did they pick beijing...?

Agree. From a political, human rights, and environmental standpoint--a giant dump (in which you can still see undigested pieces of corn, smells of a stagnant pond, and clogs your toilet).:dunno:

scyfreestyler
July 1st, 2008, 10:55 PM
Agree. From a political, human rights, and environmental standpoint--a giant dump (in which you can still see undigested pieces of corn, smells of a stagnant pond, and clogs your toilet).:dunno:

That's actually a good reason to have it there. What better way to draw international attention to the the issues you mentioned.

geochuck
July 1st, 2008, 11:25 PM
Slime and algea for the sailing venue http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h0FGqOZCvG98M6I87MaopQwCx9jQD91HQ4400

smontanaro
July 2nd, 2008, 12:06 PM
That's actually a good reason to have it there. What better way to draw international attention to the the issues you mentioned.

And, in fact, lots of attention has been drawn to various issues, some of it bad, some of it good.

Skip

TheGoodSmith
July 2nd, 2008, 01:09 PM
The pool is indoors. The meet will go on.

Could be worse...... how about a bomb blowing up at the Olympic village.

scyfreestyler
July 2nd, 2008, 01:13 PM
The pool is indoors. The meet will go on.

Could be worse...... how about a bomb blowing up at the Olympic village.

Or hostages taken. Yes, it could be far worse. Hopefully some good will come of the spotlight being aimed upon China's shortcomings.

quicksilver
July 2nd, 2008, 09:55 PM
That's actually a good reason to have it there. What better way to draw international attention to the the issues you mentioned.

Precisely.

fanstone
July 2nd, 2008, 10:18 PM
I don't get it. Aside from cultural preferences, or personal affinities, what is the deal with the cats being killed? Heck, what is the number of cattle and chickens and pigs or whatever slaughtered each year all over the world? Not to mention stray dogs and cats...As for pollution, just now in 2008 China caught up with the U.S. in the pollution statistics...whatever

scyfreestyler
July 2nd, 2008, 11:27 PM
Did you read the article about the cats? Last I checked, the US does not do things like this to our pets.

Regarding the pollution, I think you might be referring to greenhouse gases only. The NYTimes ran a series of articles about this very subject.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/world/asia/26china.html

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2007/12/29/world/asia/choking_on_growth_10.html

Public health is reeling. Pollution has made cancer China’s leading cause of death, the Ministry of Health says. Ambient air pollution alone is blamed for hundreds of thousands of deaths each year. Nearly 500 million people lack access to safe drinking water.

Chinese cities often seem wrapped in a toxic gray shroud. Only 1 percent of the country’s 560 million city dwellers breathe air considered safe by the European Union. Beijing is frantically searching for a magic formula, a meteorological deus ex machina, to clear its skies for the 2008 Olympics.

Environmental woes that might be considered catastrophic in some countries can seem commonplace in China: industrial cities where people rarely see the sun; children killed or sickened by lead poisoning or other types of local pollution; a coastline so swamped by algal red tides that large sections of the ocean no longer sustain marine life.

Chris Stevenson
July 2nd, 2008, 11:57 PM
As for pollution, just now in 2008 China caught up with the U.S. in the pollution statistics

Are you kidding? China's air and water are far dirtier than in the US.

Daaaave
July 3rd, 2008, 12:41 AM
Are you kidding? China's air and water are far dirtier than in the US.


Probably referring to some other metric reported recently. Like carbon emissions per capita...basically if you cut several "pollution" metrics (as broad as that is) per capita, the US is still up there because we have 1/4 the people as China but not 1/4 the production in each metric (necessarily). On absolute terms, I think the broad "pollution" aka "bad stuff" output is probably more for China in several categories. I'm sure it varies, and anyone wanting to make a point for/against US/China environmental practices can find examples in any direction.

scyfreestyler
July 3rd, 2008, 12:56 AM
We certainly don't have this problem...

Nearly 500 million people lack access to safe drinking water. Although, one might think otherwise based upon the consumption of bottled water in this country.

fanstone
July 3rd, 2008, 08:46 AM
You missed my point: the slaughter of "pets" is a question of cultural or personal issue. The U.S. doesn't slaughter cats, and India doesn't slaughter cattle. For the slaughtered animal, be it cat or cow the question is of life or death, it is all slaughter. Is a cat a "higher" and more deserving animal that cannot be slaughtered in comparison with a cow? Or a cute chicken? As for pollution, I wasn't referring to the pollution in each individual city or of the air over China, but to its contribution to global pollution, which is what affects us or me. As for drinking water and such, I don't get the connection between that and the Olympic games.

Iwannafly
July 3rd, 2008, 09:42 AM
China is not the only country in the world with pet overpopulation problems. The US probably euthanizes more pets than China at the moment. The following statistics are from the American Humane Society's website (http://www.americanhumane.org/site/PageServer?pagename=nr_fact_sheets_animal_euthanas ia):



Using the National Council's numbers from 1997 and estimating the number of operating shelters in the United States to be 3,500 (the exact number of animal shelters operating in the United States does not exist), here are the statistics:

Of the 1,000 shelters that replied to the National Council's survey, 4.3 million animals were handled.
In 1997 roughly 64% of the total number of animals that entered shelters were euthanized -- approximately 2.7 million animals in just these 1,000 shelters.

I just took a snippet from the statistics page, but the link above points to the same page that I quoted from.

aquageek
July 3rd, 2008, 09:56 AM
China also isn't the only country in the world to have red tide issues. Is there some parade of cats at opening ceremonies? Why are we talking about cats? Cats are strange animals.

Sam Perry
July 3rd, 2008, 09:58 AM
This thread is getting way too political for me. In fact being a member of the Anti Feline Slaughter Party (AFS) for short, I find it very offensive that the other side gets any discussion.

swimcat
July 3rd, 2008, 10:14 AM
This thread is getting way too political for me. In fact being a member of the Anti Feline Slaughter Party (AFS) for short, I find it very offensive that the other side gets any discussion.

athens had the same issues, they rounded up the stray dogs and cats who roam because the owners didn't fix them(they claim it is a cultural issue), and killed them. iwannafly, as far as euthanization in the US, don't get me on my soapbox about animal rights... it is a tragedy that people don't spay and neuter. noone here to my knowledge is culling or eatingcats. :rant3: i work as a translator /interpreter for olympic games and international sporting events, and did not work greece and would not step foot in china because of the animal and human rights issues:rant3::mad::soapbox::soapbox:

Chris Stevenson
July 3rd, 2008, 10:25 AM
Is there some parade of cats at opening ceremonies?

:rofl:

THAT would be a sight to see. Ours is a classic marriage of a dog person (me) and a cat person (my wife). Although I have come to appreciate their quirkiness and admire their unabashed self-centeredness, any cat worth its salt wouldn't bother to hide its disdain for such herd-like behavior.

Although China's pollution problems are pretty staggering, and for the most part worse than we face in the US, we do have our own problems with red tides off the US coasts. Not to mention the occasional outbreak of Pfiesteria ("the cell from hell")...

geochuck
July 3rd, 2008, 10:31 AM
With all this cat talk I would like to enlighten you about some real cat problems caught here on video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASkDLn13jEc

scyfreestyler
July 3rd, 2008, 10:32 AM
What happens if a Chinese person carries a flag through Tiananmen Square reading something along the lines of 'remember the Unknown Rebel'?

knelson
July 3rd, 2008, 10:36 AM
noone here to my knowledge is culling or eatingcats.

Not since the TV show "Alf" went off the air, anyway. :)

geochuck
July 3rd, 2008, 10:37 AM
What happens if a Chinese person carries a flag through Tiananmen Square reading something along the lines of 'remember the Unknown Rebel'?
He would fast become A Rebel Without A Cause

Chris Stevenson
July 3rd, 2008, 12:05 PM
He would fast become A Rebel Without A Cause

Would his indoor cat become a Rebel Without Claws?

SwimStud
July 3rd, 2008, 12:17 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3a6ZZPLsio&feature=related

C'mon there isn't really any hope for this evil beast...no matter how much you like cats.



I don't see the problem with stray cats in Beijing... we could include them in the games in some new events.

"Cat Put" Sounds cruel but cats always land on their feet.

"1 man and 1 cat kayaking!" See how fast the kayaker paddles while the Cat goes nutso trying to get out of the hull via the easiest route.

"50m cat-on-back sprint" All out swim with the cat "surfing" So the Moggy will get soggy. If its really that dirty in Beijing the cat could use a bath anyhow.

"Cat-Lift" Weight lifters could hold an open tin of cat food in each hand above their heads and then a bunch of stray cats are let into the room...the winner would be scored by net weight of the cats multiplied by time holding arms aloft (not for the squeamish).




Relax, I'm just kidding.

quicksilver
July 3rd, 2008, 12:50 PM
Everyone should own a cat...or three.
The world would be a nicer place.

swimcat
July 3rd, 2008, 01:46 PM
Everyone should own a cat...or three.
The world would be a nicer place.
:agree:

btw, is that your cat on the avatar?

aquageek
July 3rd, 2008, 01:48 PM
Everyone should own a cat...or three.
The world would be a nicer place.

This is why cat people scare me. You have to collect them. One dog is all you need.

swimcat
July 3rd, 2008, 01:54 PM
This is why cat people scare me. You have to collect them. One dog is all you need.

wish that were true. my sister has 5 dogs.
btw, i have a dog too, the infamous pug

The Fortress
July 3rd, 2008, 02:05 PM
This is why cat people scare me. You have to collect them. One dog is all you need.

One cat is all I need, thanks.

When I was in Belize, I didn't eat any meat -- a cab driver told us a story of the use of cat meat in lieu of beef in some of the divier spots. Blech.

aquageek
July 3rd, 2008, 02:08 PM
Oh, and here's another bothersome thing about the cat folks. They all have at least one cat named Daisy or Snowball or Socks. And, the really odd ones will name their cat Mr. So and So or Mrs. So and So.

I have to admit, our next door neighbor's cat was pretty cool, he just died, kind of sad.

swimcat
July 3rd, 2008, 02:32 PM
Oh, and here's another bothersome thing about the cat folks. They all have at least one cat named Daisy or Snowball or Socks. And, the really odd ones will name their cat Mr. So and So or Mrs. So and So.

I have to admit, our next door neighbor's cat was pretty cool, he just died, kind of sad.

i have a cat named crabby cat(came with the name) and biki, orangina(like the soft drink) and my parents cat is named chicco(italian name, not for the baby toy company)

my dog unfortunately has an unoriginal name pugsley

SwimStud
July 3rd, 2008, 03:03 PM
It's no wonder cats are generally malevolent beings if they get such silly names.
Mr Furball
Cottonfeet
Sooty
GAH!

Rex
Rover
Ben
Buddy.
Much better names and suited to dogs, and at least they love you.

quicksilver
July 3rd, 2008, 03:29 PM
One dog is all you need.

We have one too, and he thinks he's a cat. But you're right, cat people can and do act strangely.
I am very guilty of talking baby talk to our cats. They're very friendly and purr all the time.


Every so often you see the random cat lady in the news...who's been housing like 100 or more.
That's not only weird...but stinky.

Iwannafly
July 3rd, 2008, 03:34 PM
It's no wonder cats are generally malevolent beings if they get such silly names.
Mr Furball
Cottonfeet
Sooty
GAH!

Rex
Rover
Ben
Buddy.
Much better names and suited to dogs, and at least they love you.

Other than the dogs I had as kids, which my mom named, I've had good dogs with good names. My avatar is Jackson, we also had a Guinness (a shepherd/retriever mix-105 pounds and all black) and now we have a Yellow Lab puppy named Radar! Dogs are good and I'm allergic to cats. My parrot can say, "Here kitty kitty kitty!"

knelson
July 3rd, 2008, 04:08 PM
Here's my cat, Seuss.

Despite how she looks in the photo I assure you she only has the standard number of legs!

aquageek
July 3rd, 2008, 04:09 PM
This is beginning to border on the Valentine's Day poem orgy that erupted and I only have myself to blame this time.

dorothyrde
July 3rd, 2008, 04:25 PM
Oh, and here's another bothersome thing about the cat folks. They all have at least one cat named Daisy or Snowball or Socks. And, the really odd ones will name their cat Mr. So and So or Mrs. So and So.

I have to admit, our next door neighbor's cat was pretty cool, he just died, kind of sad.


My cat(may he rest in peace) was named Charlie, thankyouverymuch. So now I have a dog named Rosie. Charlie, Rosie, what movie, chime in everyone.

Iwannafly
July 4th, 2008, 06:40 AM
My cat(may he rest in peace) was named Charlie, thankyouverymuch. So now I have a dog named Rosie. Charlie, Rosie, what movie, chime in everyone.
So I Married an Axe Murderer

dorothyrde
July 4th, 2008, 08:23 AM
So I Married an Axe Murderer

um..........nooooooo

SwimStud
July 4th, 2008, 09:50 AM
So I Married an Axe Murderer

"Heed get doon! Would you look at the size of that boy's cranium!"

SwimStud
July 4th, 2008, 09:51 AM
My cat(may he rest in peace) was named Charlie, thankyouverymuch. So now I have a dog named Rosie. Charlie, Rosie, what movie, chime in everyone.

When Harry met Sally?

onefish
July 4th, 2008, 10:13 AM
Kinky Friedman has a few quotes about cats that might be applicable to this discussion, some of which even border on politics, but at least put them in the rightful humorous perspective:

Now I have a cat. Well, that's not quite accurate. A cat and I have each other.
Friedman, Kinky (1993), When the cat's away. New York (Wings Books), 421


I rarely meddled in the cat's personal affairs and she rarely meddled in mine. Neither of us was foolish enough to attribute human emotions to our pets.
Friedman, Kinky (1993), Greenwich Killing Time. New York (Wings Books), 12

When you have a cat, you assume certain responsibilities that, in a spiritual sense, may transcend those of a marital or a business relationship.
Friedman, Kinky (1993), Greenwich Killing Time. New York (Wings Books), 88


Cats, as a rule, don't like lawyers. They have great insight into human character.
Friedman, Kinky (1993), Greenwich Killing Time. New York (Wings Books), 48

dv

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 4th, 2008, 09:15 PM
they said yes to China because they have been saying no for so long. It is truly ne of the worse governments in the world. what is truly upsettign is that we will only see the "Beautiful China' I'm sure NBC is going to kiss the toes of the Chinese leaders and sho nohting truly happening in The Peoples Republic of China. If NBC leaves the olympics we will see beautiful little children, the Great Wall, the buried Army and maybe pandas. Nothing about the polution in northeastern China where daily people die from efects of pulotion, no world about the coditions in china's prisons (the worst in the world), no story about the flood of young going into the cities leaving the countryside full of elderly who can't take care of themselves nor provide the agricultural needs of the cities.

Many poeple have said tha there will never be another Olympics in the southern USA because of the fanatic Christians and the bomb. I bet on one will ever see the Olympics in China again. I hope there is a huge protest conducted by Chinesse citizens. Probably can't happen because so few people o f the country can get tickets or even near where there will be any competition.

fanstone
July 4th, 2008, 09:36 PM
Interestingly I did not know that McVeigh was from the South, neither Kaczynski. I guess the Atlanta members of this forum will be happy with your comparisons...your prejudice is not only towards China and the Chinese people but it overflows into the Southern USA and sprinkles slightly on Christians....

swimr4life
July 5th, 2008, 01:50 PM
Many poeple have said tha there will never be another Olympics in the southern USA because of the fanatic Christians and the bomb.

WHAT THE CRAP are you talking about?? :shakeshead:Can you make a more politically incorrect, stereotypical statement? I am sick and tired of the snide, rude remarks about southerners. YES, I take them personally!::rant3::censor: I also happen to be a Christian.....My first day back on the forum in a while and this is what I see.......I'm walking AWAY from the computer.....

Slowswim
July 11th, 2008, 02:46 PM
"Heed get doon! Would you look at the size of that boy's cranium!"

The piper is doon, the piper is DOON!

BTW: When did a bomb go off in the Olympic Village? Not that I know about and I was the Night Logistcs Manager for the 1996 Olympic Village.

geochuck
July 11th, 2008, 03:03 PM
Slow here is the BBC report with a video http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/27/newsid_3920000/3920865.stm

They falsely accused a security guard.

Slowswim
July 11th, 2008, 03:45 PM
Slow here is the BBC report with a video http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/27/newsid_3920000/3920865.stm

They falsely accused a security guard.

Yes a bomb went off in Centenial Park, but Centential Park was a couple of miles from the Village and was controlled by Atlanta not ACOG. A bomb has never gone off in the Village as was said here earlier.

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 12th, 2008, 07:13 PM
I did not say this was my belief about Atlanta. I said that I have heard. I don't really care. I do know that several Christian groups were handing out flyers just about every where I went in Atlanta during the Olympics.

The People Republic of China can produce so much propaganda it is overwhelming. I am sure we will hear nothing about the people displaced from their homes so that stadiums could be built. We will hear nothing about the hundreds of people who were left homeless with promises of apartments that still haven't been made. Or the people sent to the countryside because there is no place of them. Or the country left with nothing but elders who don't have there daily needs met because all of the young people have gone into the cities to escape poverty. We won't hear about the plunging decrease of farm goods produced or the lowering of the age of death after about 35 years of it increasing in The Peoples republic of china.

geochuck
July 12th, 2008, 07:22 PM
Canadian model murdered in China in a safe area of the city http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080711/ap_on_re_as/china_model_death

chowmi
July 12th, 2008, 11:51 PM
So...she was murdered several hours before 5:30am when her body was found. Coming back from where? A corporate party? "Waitressing"?

How does this compare with the murder rate in New York? Los Angeles?

If you are not out in the middle of the night/early morning, and avoiding certain lifestyles or occupations, that probably increases your chances of survival quite a bit.

Iwannafly
July 13th, 2008, 05:31 PM
um..........nooooooo

It was Rose in "So I Married an Axe Murderer!"


Rose Michaels (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001625/): Let me make you some breakfast.
Charlie Mackenzie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): Oh, gee, you know, I'd love to. But you know, I'm really running late, but thanks!
Rose Michaels (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001625/): What would you say to silver-dollar pancakes, fresh-squeezed orange juice, bacon, and Kona coffee?
Charlie Mackenzie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): Well, that sounds great!
[Cut to Rose pouring cereal in Charlie's bowl]
Rose Michaels (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001625/): Sorry. I didn't have those other things.
Charlie Mackenzie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): No, no, that's fine. That other stuff will probably kill you... whereas "Froot Loops" are light, and reasonably high in fiber. I care for "Apple Jacks" a great deal.

And just for you Stud:


Stuart Mackenzie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): Look at the size of that boy's heed.
Tony Giardino (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001439/): Shhh!
Stuart Mackenzie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): I'm not kidding, it's like an orange on a toothpick.
Tony Giardino (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001439/): Shhh, you're going to give the boy a complex.
Stuart Mackenzie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): Well, that's a huge noggin. That's a virtual planetoid.
Tony Giardino (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001439/): Shh!
Stuart Mackenzie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): Has it's own weather system.
Tony Giardino (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001439/): Sh, sh, shh.
Stuart Mackenzie (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000196/): HEAD! MOVE!

dorothyrde
July 13th, 2008, 06:59 PM
Geeez, African Queen, Bogart and Hepburn

SwimStud
July 13th, 2008, 07:03 PM
Geeez, African Queen, Bogart and Hepburn

"Leeches...I hate leeches!"

dorothyrde
July 13th, 2008, 10:18 PM
"Leeches...I hate leeches!"

Yep! But GREAT movie!

Tree
July 17th, 2008, 03:47 AM
[quote=craiglll@yahoo.com;139512]they said yes to China because they have been saying no for so long. It is truly ne of the worse governments in the world. what is truly upsettign is that we will only see the "Beautiful China' I'm sure NBC is going to kiss the toes of the Chinese leaders and sho nohting truly happening in The Peoples Republic of China. If NBC leaves the olympics we will see beautiful little children, the Great Wall, the buried Army and maybe pandas. Nothing about the polution in northeastern China where daily people die from efects of pulotion, no world about the coditions in china's prisons (the worst in the world), no story about the flood of young going into the cities leaving the countryside full of elderly who can't take care of themselves nor provide the agricultural needs of the cities.
quote]

Craig, I have seen you expressed your resentments against Chinese government in several of your posts concerning China. Nothing wrong with that. And most information I have read in your posts is true, especially the statement you made that the government is one of the worst.

one thing you kept repeating is that you constantly imply the absolute linkage between the government and the "ugly" side of China (this is not a proper word. It is just used as opposed to the Beautiful you mentioned). And there is no doubt that the government, in one way or another, has caused the misery or escalated the situation.

BUT it is wrong to assign all the responsibilities of those misery to the government. Most of the misery, if not all of them, have existed and continued in CHina for centuries. The current government, in its essence, has nothing different from the previous government or dynasties. What it did was following the footsteps of its predecessors, either leave those problems alone or solve them, or try to solve them but failed to do so and escalated them.

Thrashing Slug
July 17th, 2008, 12:03 PM
Li, thank you for your post. We are fortunate to have someone like you on this board who can speak about these issues from a local's perspective. I also appreciate your honesty. For what it's worth, I am glad the Olympics are being held in China. I think it will be good for China, and good for China's relationship with the larger international community.

-Chris

tjburk
July 17th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Tree, where actually are you posting your info from? The reason I ask is I am wondering how you get away with posting things against the government when if we believe all the evils we here about your government, you wouldn't be allowed to say things so openly......

Tree
July 17th, 2008, 11:39 PM
Li, thank you for your post. We are fortunate to have someone like you on this board who can speak about these issues from a local's perspective. I also appreciate your honesty. For what it's worth, I am glad the Olympics are being held in China. I think it will be good for China, and good for China's relationship with the larger international community.

-Chris

Thanks for your understanding. I agree that the government has done a great deal of harm to China and its citizens. But I do not think that isolation China from the international community is going to do any good to the ordinary people here. Take Iraq for example, before the war the international community put sanctions on Iraq. the result was very obvious: the ordinary people suffered more and Sadamm enjoyed more. Right untill the war. The same thing would happen in China as well if China were isolated. The only difference would be that the government, or the interest-gained/powerful group replace Sadamm because in China it is now a group dictatorship pollitical system rather than a one-person dictatorship.

Another thing why I oppose an isolation approach to China is that China needs new ideas, new ideology from other cultures/countries to change its own way of thinking. An Isolation approach would block the spread of those new ideas into China, which would escalate the situation here.

Many Chinese people, significantly influenced by the traditional Chinese culture, have no idea or very little idea on what another culture is like or what another political system works. As a result, when they think the government is wrong they still turn to the Chinese culture/political theories trying to find a "new" way to reslove the problems, which, in my opinion, is not new at all. The same recipe with different ingredients.

If we look into the nearly three thousand of years of Chinese history we would find a continuous replacement of a new dynasty to the old one, then the new one was replaced by the next new one. What kept change was who controlled the country. What remained unchanged was the controlling mechanism each dynasty used. In terms of political/philosophy theory behind the political mechanism, confucianism, the dominated theory, was upheld by generations of CHina for neary two thousand years. Individualism, individual's Freedom, democracy, the respect of private ownership of property, etc. all those important ideas never gained a position in Chinese history.

The communist party we have today is no different. They may call themselves communist party but in nature they are still more or less a traditional Chinese ideology dominated political party. As Chairman Mao put it: the ideology adopted by the chinese communist party is a combination of the Maxism with the real Chinese situation. or probably more correctly, the localization of Maxism. Mao emphasized the REAL CHINESE SITUATION again and again in his works. In his early political life Mao was critised by classical Maxists as being a not real maxist and was suppressed until he led the chinese communist party to survive the Long March. Coincidence or not Mao actually never set his foot on a foreign land except Russia. All the leaders after Mao, no matter how they disagree with him, still carries Mao's perception into the new ideas from another culture. For example, all the important policies made by the government must emphasize the unique characteristics of the chinse society when introducing new ideas, new approaches, etc. In theory, it is correct that every new idea must consider the real situation of each case before those new ideas get implemented. But in real world, many parties distort the new ideas to gain their own interest under the name of considering the unique characteristics of our sociey.

All I want to say is that CHina must look outside of both its geographic boders and its culture/political sphere to take new blood to guide its sustainable development. Only more communication with outside world can contribute to that. An isolation approach would only make things worse. Why we need the new ideas from outside? because the continuous three thousand year of history makes it very very difficult to change by only resorting to the things of our own.

Finally I want to point out that the above said is only my personal opinions. Many many of my fellow countryman would not agree with me. Those who read them should be aware that if they want to explore more about China.

Li

Tree
July 18th, 2008, 12:03 AM
Tree, where actually are you posting your info from? The reason I ask is I am wondering how you get away with posting things against the government when if we believe all the evils we here about your government, you wouldn't be allowed to say things so openly......

I am typing all those words right from my desk in my company in Beijing. believe it or not, we can complain about the government in internet (but probably better not in newspaper. I do not mean that you would be arrested in you complain in newspaper. It indeed happened in the past but only in very extreme situations. Most of those who complain in newspaper are not living a great life any more, but OK. they are not in the prison), in private, or in semi-public. For instance, I can critisize the government in my office. No problem at all.

I think the reason that you ask this question is that you are influenced by the media who sometimes publish very very extreme cases, sometimes publish fake stories, sometimes publish true stories but deliberately led the analysis into those stories to their direction, or sometimes the journalists report the true situation but only focus on the evil side of communist party while ignoring the whole picture, in particular, I think those journalists ignore the linkage between the government and its numorous predecessors, the fact that it is group-dictatorship political system, also they probably never ask why democracy or capitalism never happened in China.

It is very easy to blame all the faults to the communist party. But based on chinese history that would not change things completely. I remember one saying: if a child does something very very badly we probably need to re-examine the whole society. the same with china. if we get these problems occuring again and again in our history then we need to re looke ourselves as a nation.

Li

Tim Garton
July 18th, 2008, 12:40 AM
Hey Paul,
Read with interest your comments re the new suits -- but with even more interest your jealousy for the young and the fast, I always felt that way about you!

Tim Garton

Paul Smith
July 18th, 2008, 10:10 AM
Hey Paul,
Read with interest your comments re the new suits -- but with even more interest your jealousy for the young and the fast, I always felt that way about you!

Tim Garton

Hey stranger...where have you been hiding???!!! Talking with Al how its far past time for you to get back to the big time and really make some people jealous!!

mctrusty
July 18th, 2008, 11:52 AM
I think the reason that you ask this question is that you are influenced by the media who sometimes publish very very extreme cases, sometimes publish fake stories, sometimes publish true stories but deliberately led the analysis into those stories to their direction, or sometimes the journalists report the true situation but only focus on the evil side of communist party while ignoring the whole picture, in particular, I think those journalists ignore the linkage between the government and its numorous predecessors, the fact that it is group-dictatorship political system, also they probably never ask why democracy or capitalism never happened in China.


*Gasp* The media does this?! But I thought they were fair and balanced.:)

tjburk
July 18th, 2008, 12:20 PM
*Gasp* The media does this?! But I thought they were fair and balanced.:)

Fox is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bolt: