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Paul Smith
July 6th, 2008, 11:59 AM
There are so many side discussions going on that I wanted to throw a thread up and see if it could be a place to discuss this in more detail...and have a place to refer back to.

With all the debate about Dara how does anyone here feel about Bernard Lagat becoming a US citizen and now running for us in Beijing after testing positive for EPO in 2003 and being banned from the World Championships in Paris (see below)?

How does anyone feel about Amy Van Dyken being inducted into the USOC Hall of Fame ahead of Mary T...but no one has seen the sealed testimony from her in the Balco investigation?

Danish study questions validity of testing for performance-enhancer EPO
http://www.newser.com/article/D91HSFKG0.html

Study Shows Problems With Olympic-Style Tests
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/26/sports/olympics/26doping.html?hp=&pagewanted=all

Here is a fascinating article from Outside magazine in 2003:
http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html

Drug Test
Great Moments (in Cheater History)
By Ki Bassett
"1904 Trainers give exhausted American runner Thomas Hicks a mixture of brandy and strychnine to keep him going during the 24-mile Olympic road race. He wins, but subsequently collapses just past the finish line.

1952 At the Winter Olympics in Oslo, Norway, several speed skaters become ill from amphetamines.

1960 After taking amphetamines, Danish cyclist Knut Jensen crashes during a Rome Olympics road race, fractures his skull, and dies.

1967 British cyclist Tommy Simpson dies near the summit of Mont Ventoux, on Stage 13 of the Tour de France. He had allegedly taken amphetamines and chased the stimulants with brandy.

1968 The International Olympic Committee establishes mandatory drug testing at the Mexico City Olympic Games.

1972 Dr. Bjorn Ekblöm of Stockholm's Institute of Gymnastics and Sports invents "blood packing," which involves removing blood, increasing the concentration of red blood cells in a centrifuge, and restoring it through transfusion.

1976 East German swimmers are deceived into taking anabolic steroids by their coaches and trainers. They win 11 out of 13 swim events at the Montreal Summer Olympics that year.

1983 Seventeen athletes, including two from the United States, test positive for anabolic steroids at the Pan American Games in Caracas, Venezuela, and are disqualified. Eleven others leave the games in protest.

1987 EPO emerges as a doping agent, and over the next three years, 17 Dutch and Belgian professional cyclists die after injecting it.

1988 After winning the 100 meters at the Seoul Olympics, Canadian sprinter Ben Johnson is stripped of his gold medal after testing positive for the steroid Stanozolol.

1996 Irish swimmer Michelle Smith medals four times in Atlanta. Two years later, FINA, the governing body of international swimming, finds her guilty of manipulating a urine sample for an out-of-competition test. Smith is banned from competition for four years and misses the 2000 Sydney Olympics.

1998 Four days before the Tour de France, Willy Voet, a masseur for the Festina cycling team, is caught with 400 vials of performance-enhancing drugs. The team is asked to leave the Tour.

1998 In August, shortly before breaking Roger Maris's record of 61 home runs in a season, St. Louis Cardinals slugger Mark McGwire acknowledges that he has been using androstenedione, an androgenic steroid, for more than a year.

1998 U.S. runner Florence Griffith-Joyner, a three-time gold medalist, dies in her sleep from a heart seizure at 38. It is widely suspected that she used human growth hormone to increase her strength.

2003 Bernard Lagat of Kenya, a bronze medalist at the Sydney Summer Games, tests positive for EPO and is banned from the World Track and Field Championships in Paris. He had planned to run the 1,500 meters."

From Outside Magazine

swimr4life
July 6th, 2008, 02:12 PM
Mary T needs to be inducted into the swimming Hall of Fame WAAAY before Amy Van Dyken. I lost respect for her when she spat in her competitor's lane before a race during the 2000 Olympics and later called her a "man"! Very poor sportsmanship. Mary T. on the other hand was always a lady.

ehoch
July 6th, 2008, 02:53 PM
Paul - here is somebody that swam with you in Masters -how do you feel about that ?

LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) -- An international arbitration panel on Thursday upheld the two-year bans imposed on three Russian swimmers who tested positive for banned steroids.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) rejected the appeals of Vladimir Pyshnenko, Natalia Meshcheryakova and Olga Kochetkova.

The three were handed two-year suspensions by world swimming's governing body FINA after testing positive for the anabolic steroid metandienone on October 18, 1997, at a training camp in Cprus.

The swimmers lodged an appeal in December 1997. The case was heard by three CAS arbitrators in Lausanne on Wednesday.

”After deliberation, the arbitration panel decided to dismiss the appeal by the swimmers and to confirm the decision issued by the FINA doping panel,” CAS said in a statement.

The suspensions remain in effect until October 18, 1999.

Pychnenko swam on the relay team which won the gold medal and set a world record in the 4x200 freestyle at the Barcelona Olympics.

Its a slow show
July 6th, 2008, 03:06 PM
I haven't checked but there is no way that MaryT is not already in the Hall of Fame.

Its a slow show
July 6th, 2008, 03:10 PM
Mary T Meagher is a member of the International Swimming Hall of Fame

Warren
July 6th, 2008, 05:04 PM
I didn't know about that track and feild guy...wow, why would USA track and feild let him run in the Olympics? I don't understand all of the second chances crap. This is really bad becasue not only is he a cheater, but he is going to be representing our country.

Paul Smith
July 6th, 2008, 05:40 PM
Paul - here is somebody that swam with you in Masters -how do you feel about that ?

LAUSANNE, Switzerland (AP) -- An international arbitration panel on Thursday upheld the two-year bans imposed on three Russian swimmers who tested positive for banned steroids.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS) rejected the appeals of Vladimir Pyshnenko, Natalia Meshcheryakova and Olga Kochetkova.

The three were handed two-year suspensions by world swimming's governing body FINA after testing positive for the anabolic steroid metandienone on October 18, 1997, at a training camp in Cprus.

The swimmers lodged an appeal in December 1997. The case was heard by three CAS arbitrators in Lausanne on Wednesday.

”After deliberation, the arbitration panel decided to dismiss the appeal by the swimmers and to confirm the decision issued by the FINA doping panel,” CAS said in a statement.

The suspensions remain in effect until October 18, 1999.

Pychnenko swam on the relay team which won the gold medal and set a world record in the 4x200 freestyle at the Barcelona Olympics.

Hoch, sad stuff eh? two part answer;

1) I've gotten to know Vlad over the last couple of years and can say he's a very likable, sarcastic guy...we stay in touch and he recently emailed me how happy he was that his US citizenship had been approved and that he was ecstatic about being able to swim in our US Trials...he had a rough 200 free (1:57).

2) As for the drug use he addressed that on this forum back in 2006. I think it validates my point that the use of PED's is more pervasive and growing than many want to believe. His story brings up an interesting thing to reflect on, would you trust you coach(es)? Do you think any of Quick's swimmers using the "patch" back in 2004 asked for written proof that it was not a banned substance?

Thrashing Slug
July 6th, 2008, 05:44 PM
I was surprised too to see Lagat in the list of dopers at the beginning of this thread. However, I think it's important to note that his positive test was thrown out and he was reinstated into competition after a month, because the samples did not match.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17118-2004Aug19.html
http://www.rediff.com/sports/2003/nov/27lagat.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lagat

Paul, you should have fact-checked your list of dopers before posting it here. I was interested in Lagat because I have been watching him at the trials in Eugene. I didn't research any of the others. I wonder if any of them were cleared?

Paul Smith
July 6th, 2008, 06:10 PM
I was surprised too to see Lagat in the list of dopers at the beginning of this thread. However, I think it's important to note that his positive test was thrown out and he was reinstated into competition after a month, because the samples did not match.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17118-2004Aug19.html
http://www.rediff.com/sports/2003/nov/27lagat.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lagat

Paul, you should have fact-checked your list of dopers before posting it here. I was interested in Lagat because I have been watching him at the trials in Eugene. I didn't research any of the others. I wonder if any of them were cleared?


Chris, its not my list its part of the article I provided the link to. i edited the post and put in quotation marks and addtional note to clarify. However you are correct that I did not go further into the articles findings to make sure that everything was up to date....sorry.

Paul Smith
July 6th, 2008, 06:49 PM
Mary T Meagher is a member of the International Swimming Hall of Fame

Correct, however I was refering to the USOC HOF...I have edited my post to clarify.

hofffam
July 6th, 2008, 07:49 PM
I am not an AVD defender...but it is easy to see why the USOC would induct her in their hall of fame over Mary T. Meagher. AVD has 6 golds over two Olympics vs. 3 golds/1 bronze for MTM over two Olympics. Since AVD has not been judged officially a PED user I suppose the USOC feels they can't deny her awards based only on suspicions.

There is no question Meagher was a better and more impactful swimmer. Her performances and records have stood far longer and she is respected by everyone.

Paul Smith
July 6th, 2008, 10:40 PM
I am not an AVD defender...but it is easy to see why the USOC would induct her in their hall of fame over Mary T. Meagher.

It's voted on by "us" go to the site and check it out.

SwimStud
July 6th, 2008, 10:58 PM
I dunno about the rest of you but the guy who won the 100m hurdles...take one look at them delts...hmmmm, I say...hmmmm

LindsayNB
July 8th, 2008, 12:06 PM
I am curious what effect, if any, the time drops at US Trials have had on people's feelings about the time drops earlier in the year in Europe and Australia. Do people think that doping started there and has spread here? Or does this indicate the suits may be more important than they were given credit for back then? Or was it just Olympic year effect that didn't get to the states until Trials?

I believe Jason Lezak made a comment that a few months ago he didn't believe he could go under 48 but he did it at trials, along with a few others.

geochuck
July 8th, 2008, 12:09 PM
I know one thing that Paul Smth's new swim hi tech suit should have him equal some world records.

Sam Perry
July 8th, 2008, 12:12 PM
I know one thing that Paul Smth's new swim hi tech suit should have him equal some world records.

They are pretty much his records anyway, so all he would be doing is going his best times.

Chris Stevenson
July 8th, 2008, 02:03 PM
I am curious what effect, if any, the time drops at US Trials have had on people's feelings about the time drops earlier in the year in Europe and Australia.

Time drops? If anything, I was slightly disappointed by the times of (most of) the event winners in Omaha. Good swims certainly, but I was not blown away like some of the results in the sprint freestyles earlier this year.

Heck, we have a 41-year-old as the best woman sprinter in the US.

LindsayNB
July 8th, 2008, 03:14 PM
Well, the highest profile drops earlier were the men's 50 and 100 free, and Jason Lezak dropped from 48.55 at Worlds to 47.68 at Trials, with two others joining him below 48 for the first time. Two swimmers went under Popov's old record and another was within 0.01.

geochuck
July 8th, 2008, 03:23 PM
Lindsay is that a major drop, I don't think so. A dive, a turn, a little bit better streamline. A better breakout from the turn and dive. Better foot position when diving. A small change in technique. All of these things add up to faster times. Much faster times and if there is any truth in better swim wear supposedly 2 percent less drag.

And all without drugs.

pdjang
July 8th, 2008, 04:08 PM
Interesting story in the NY Times about Dara Torres and an amino acid recovery product:

http://olympics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/06/us-swimming-trials-torres-credits-amino-acids-for-comeback/

I wonder what combination (and amount) of amino acids are in Warnecke's product.

Would it work for other geezers?

LindsayNB
July 8th, 2008, 04:11 PM
I'm not saying that anyone is doping. I'm saying that as more and more people duplicate the drops it gets harder and harder to support the argument that the first person who had the drop had to be doping because no one else has ever had a drop like that.

As more and more people go 47 in the hundred one either has to believe that they are all doping or admit that whoever dropped first maybe just happened to be the first one and that there is a first time for everything.