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JMiller
July 7th, 2008, 12:03 PM
All amateur swimmers 18 and over should be required to swim at least one masters meet per year. This would help with the transition into adult life, and really show the younger generation the value of masters swimming. Adults who continue to love the sport, that's a great networking tool and a positive way to stay involved with people of similar interests.

SwimStud
July 7th, 2008, 12:04 PM
All amateur swimmers 18 and over should be required to swim at least one masters meet per year. This would help with the transition into adult life, and really show the younger generation the value of masters swimming. Adults who continue to love the sport, that's a great networking tool and a positive way to stay involved with people of similar interests.

I thnk that's a great idea. A home state or Zone meet would be a good venue for that.

thewookiee
July 7th, 2008, 12:06 PM
How would it help with the transition? A lot of people love master's swimming because they have a group to swim with, which keeps them motivated to stay fit but they don't have the desire to compete anymore.

I think if USMS required a competition it would actually drive people away from joining a team.

JMiller
July 7th, 2008, 12:15 PM
How would it help with the transition?

Too many young adults quit the sport, because they didn't make the "big" show. If they had an alternative experience, perhaps a swim-for-fitness community, they would keep swimming.

Not only that, but speaking from personal experience, most of my role-models quit, never to swim again. In Masters it's different, you all inspire me on a regular basis, and that really helps.

thewookiee
July 7th, 2008, 12:27 PM
Master's is looked upon as a swim-for-fitness community. I don't see why competition should be required.

One aspect of master's swimming that I enjoy and a lot of people that I know enjoy is the fact that we can swim together w/o any requirements put upon us, other than to pay our dues, be respectful to others at practice and have fun. Also, not being told that I must compete is a big draw for myself and others. I wouldn't like the idea of belong to a group if I was required "to compete"

Not everyone wants to get up and race. To those that do, awesome but for those that don't and just want to swim with a group, then awesome for them as well.

aztimm
July 7th, 2008, 12:36 PM
From the way I interpret the original post, it sounds like they want high caliber swimmers (such as those who would qualify for an Olympic team) to do a masters meet once per year.

However, on that same note, you'd also require current masters swimmers to do a meet once a year. My team has a very low rate of swimmers who compete at all (maybe 10%), and doing this would probably reduce the number of swimmers on the team. We've hashed through on various other threads why swimmers don't compete, but making it a requirement would just reduce the ranks of masters swimming.

SwimStud
July 7th, 2008, 12:40 PM
From the way I interpret the original post, it sounds like they want high caliber swimmers (such as those who would qualify for an Olympic team) to do a masters meet once per year.

However, on that same note, you'd also require current masters swimmers to do a meet once a year. My team has a very low rate of swimmers who compete at all (maybe 10%), and doing this would probably reduce the number of swimmers on the team. We've hashed through on various other threads why swimmers don't compete, but making it a requirement would just reduce the ranks of masters swimming.

I think having Olmpians do a few exhibition USMS Meets etc might help promote the masters scene...forcing anyone to do anything isn't good though.

ViveBene
July 7th, 2008, 12:55 PM
I'm sorry, there really isn't a connection here. Further, people 18 and over are already making the transition into adult life in a number of ways, some quite challenging: figuring out how to pay for their college education, quite possibly dealing with newly divorced parents and general family breakup, moving away from hometown to place they may never have seen, learning to drive, learning to say no to many things, figuring out their trajectory in life, and so forth.


All amateur swimmers 18 and over should be required to swim at least one masters meet per year. This would help with the transition into adult life ....

"All amateur musicians 18 and over should be required to do at least one audition per year. This would help the transition into adult life..."

stillwater
July 7th, 2008, 01:33 PM
I would quit my masters team.

I have raced enough. My times are embarrasingly slower (to me) than in the past, yet I have no desire to train as hard as I did in college. Swimming fast is nice, but I don't have the gumption or time to do it.

I am quite content with my competition just to make it to practice. Spending what little free time I have at a swimming meet will not happen in the forseeable future.

I salute those who do compete.

Blackbeard's Peg
July 7th, 2008, 01:56 PM
Thanks but no thanks.
There are already enough "ringers" at the 18-24 and 25-29 levels. While some do make it to things like Trials, at least most of these guys swim USMS as their primary means of training and competition (aka Doak, Liscinski, etc.).

Less than 20% of USMS' membership does a meet in a year. Most folks that join my team are just looking for an awesome way to get some exercise and have no interest in competing. If a former college swimmer has joined, a common reason for not competing is because they will inevitably compare their times from college and be pissed off when they're so far off.

It would be nice to get more folks at meets, but a requirement at the national level sounds facist. It is up to the membership, facilities and individual clubs to find new and innovative ways of a) recruiting new members and b) encouraging their membership to participate in events.

anita
July 7th, 2008, 02:00 PM
My goal is to keep coming back--that is, to the pool. To swim for fitness. I have joined USMS, but for the challenges, not the competition. Been there, done that, don't need to do it again.

Jazz Hands
July 7th, 2008, 02:00 PM
Really stupid idea. It does sound fascist.

Redbird Alum
July 7th, 2008, 02:06 PM
The idea may seem silly, but look at the great discussion it has drawn out. Sometimes we need a good post to keep us thinking about why we do what we do.

Iwannafly
July 7th, 2008, 02:09 PM
Really stupid idea.

Wow, perhaps a little more subtle on the delivery next time?!?!

thewookiee
July 7th, 2008, 02:11 PM
Thanks but no thanks.
Liscinski
.


Are you talking about Mark?? We were teammates at American. He was a freshman and I was a senior. You are right...he is super fast and really nice guy.

The Fortress
July 7th, 2008, 02:13 PM
Really stupid idea. It does sound fascist.

I agree, fascist. Adding yet another requirement to adulthood?! Takes all the fun out of it if you HAVE to do it. Meanwhile, I'm swimming at a USA meet this weekend with my kid for fun! :oldman: No one made me do it; it's the lure of Muppet's pool.

thewookiee
July 7th, 2008, 02:14 PM
Wow, perhaps a little more subtle on the delivery next time?!?!

No point in being subtle...that's his opinion... let him express it. I do agree with people that we should promote that people can compete in meets, if they want too but it should also be promoted that it is a great way to stay healthy without being forced to race.

One day, maybe I will race again, but if I am forced too..no way.(..did enough of that in hs/age group/college)...then it would be a stupid idea.

chowmi
July 7th, 2008, 03:27 PM
On average, less than 2k attend SCY nationals each year, even less for LCM. Surely the other 41k of the 43k registered masters swimmers are finding meaningful experiences with their membership.

I agree 100% with our thread poster on a personal level, but I disagree with the requirement of competition for the masses. Perhaps instead of "required", it be replaced with "recommended", and instead of a "meet", to include any USMS sanctioned event, whether it be the check off challenge, a meet, a fun-relay meet, a clinic, open water, a social....or getting involved at the administrative level. For those of you who have never attended convention, IT IS A BLAST!! And you will gain such an appreciation of what it takes to run usms.

For those joining masters at an early point in their careers, this is even better experience. You can put it on your resume. Start with your LMSC, and get an officer position. It's a starter board position! Do the registrar function and then you set the bar at only taking PAID board positions in the future!!

I wish that I knew more about this when I first got out of college. It's fun, and it's great experience. My dream is to one day get on the board of a F500 company and actually get paid for it. Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to justify why they want a BANKRUTPCY trustee on their board - may send the wrong message!

JMiller
July 7th, 2008, 03:28 PM
Whoa people... All swimmers in the amateur circuit are required to race, that is the cost of participation as an age-grouper. That's why they should experience the masters concept. What is one more meet? A meet that shows these young athletes another option?

LindsayNB
July 7th, 2008, 03:36 PM
Perhaps you could recast that to "Masters should allow 18+yo age group swimmers to compete in one Masters meet each year"?

thewookiee
July 7th, 2008, 04:06 PM
Whoa people... All swimmers in the amateur circuit are required to race, that is the cost of participation as an age-grouper. That's why they should experience the masters concept. What is one more meet? A meet that shows these young athletes another option?


Maybe they get to the point of being tired of competing and want to do other things with their lives? How many of us stepped away from swimming at somepoint to do other things? I would bet a lot of us did, then we came back to it after a break.

The idea to "require" competition in master's is stupid. The idea to "recommed" is much better. It gives the person the idea that he or she is finally getting to decide if they want to go to a competition. If it is recommended, I would venture some people will give it a try because they want to see what a master's meet is all about...some will become hooked and some will want to do other things.

It may sound like just "one more meet" but if age groupers swim and compete as much as teams around here do, then the kid's need a break too. Besides, they have enough things they are required to do and going to a swim meet "to experience masters" won't be something they are thrilled about anyway.

pwolf66
July 7th, 2008, 04:44 PM
Whoa people... All swimmers in the amateur circuit are required to race, that is the cost of participation as an age-grouper.

Um, since when? Required to race? Nope, definately not REQUIRED. Encouraged? Yes. Required? Not in our area.

ensignada
July 7th, 2008, 05:12 PM
That's a great way to attract more people to masters swimming - put performance pressure on them!

You just don't get it, JM - some swimmers don't want to compete, see it as daunting, see it as nothing other than a waste of a Sunday morning. Some people use swimming to workout and don't care what the clock says. Just because it means something to you, doesn't mean it needs to be important for everyone.

JMiller
July 7th, 2008, 05:18 PM
Really? I didn't know coaches train amateur athletes without the racing component. Either way, this seems to be taken out of context, I'm just saying it would be good if more swimmers thought of masters as a viable option. Not just for the competitive element.


Um, since when? Required to race? Nope, definately not REQUIRED. Encouraged? Yes. Required? Not in our area.

SLOmmafan
July 7th, 2008, 06:24 PM
As I am relatively young (24), and somewhat new to Master's swimming (1 year), most of my swim competition dates back to high school swimming and/or USA swimming age group competitions. One thing I don't understand is why there is not greater cooperation between the two organizations (USA Swim and USMS). Being in an area where the average time to get to an actual USMS/SPMA swim meet is two hours away, I only get to compete once or twice a year at best. There are at least 10 age group meets that take place within 30-45 minutes per year.

In general, my observation is that unless you are super fast (Olympic or Senior National Q) - you just look out of place trying to swim at a USA swimming age group meet over the age of 18.

Ripple
July 7th, 2008, 09:26 PM
Maybe they get to the point of being tired of competing and want to do other things with their lives?...

If you really want to get more masters at meets, find some way to ease in people who were never swim racers as youngsters. Speaking as a late starter, I find the idea of a swim meet in a pool intimidating. Open water swims seem a lot less daunting - no flip turns or diving. More like the 10k road races I did years ago and much less like a track and field 10000 meter run.

LindsayNB
July 7th, 2008, 09:54 PM
If you really want to get more masters at meets, find some way to ease in people who were never swim racers as youngsters. Speaking as a late starter, I find the idea of a swim meet in a pool intimidating. Open water swims seem a lot less daunting - no flip turns or diving. More like the 10k road races I did years ago and much less like a track and field 10000 meter run.

Part of the Masters Swimming Canada one year plan is to promote clubs holding time trials during practices, both informal timings and formal/official time trials. Hopefully the opportunity to participate within your club, during regular workout times, with the emphasis on getting a time versus "competing" will be at least a little less intimidating than regular competition. In Atlantic Canada at least the meets are generally small and very friendly and unintimidating once you are there. I do think that in small meets, where size and efficiency is not an issue, meets could be even less formal and more welcoming, more of a learning experience than a formal test. I am hoping that club time trials could be run more like that without compromising the validity of the times at all. Just as an example, I see no problem with someone having a second go at a race if they get DQed.

I use the road race/fun run versus track events analogy a lot, in board discussions and planning sessions, it's nice to see someone else make the same point.

JMiller
July 7th, 2008, 10:34 PM
What are you talking about? Masters meets are more enjoyable, no pressure at all... Just like Lindsay says, master swim meets are more inclusive, and that's the point I was previously trying to make.


That's a great way to attract more people to masters swimming - put performance pressure on them!

The Fortress
July 7th, 2008, 10:42 PM
As I am relatively young (24), and somewhat new to Master's swimming (1 year), most of my swim competition dates back to high school swimming and/or USA swimming age group competitions. One thing I don't understand is why there is not greater cooperation between the two organizations (USA Swim and USMS). Being in an area where the average time to get to an actual USMS/SPMA swim meet is two hours away, I only get to compete once or twice a year at best. There are at least 10 age group meets that take place within 30-45 minutes per year.

In general, my observation is that unless you are super fast (Olympic or Senior National Q) - you just look out of place trying to swim at a USA swimming age group meet over the age of 18.

Not entirely accurate, unless you will only swim at meets with QTs and prelim/finals formats. True, not many masters show up at USA meets. But last time I did, I had fun, didn't get clobbered and I'm way older than you. The meet I'm swimming in this weekend is masters sanctioned. Personally, I vastly prefer masters meets for the social aspect, but there aren't nearly as many masters meets. If just depends on how much you want to race and how important convenience is to you. For me, convenience and timing are everything or very nearly.

Jonathan:

It's easy for you to say there's no pressure at a masters meet. But for those who didn't swim competitively as youths, it can still be stressful. Masters meets are inclusive and there's a lot of support, but still, many hold little interest for fitness swimmers or busy people with other priorities. And, for newbies and relative newbies, just getting up on a block and worrying about your goggles and turns can cause some anxiety. I had goggles issues for a year, and am still start impaired. It's not as easy as you imply. :P

SwimStud
July 7th, 2008, 10:53 PM
It's easy for you to say there's no pressure at a masters meet. But for those who didn't swim competitively as youths, it can still be stressful. Masters meets are inclusive and there's a lot of support, but still, many hold little interest for fitness swimmers or busy people with other priorities. And, for newbies and relative newbies, just getting up on a block and worrying about your goggles can cause some anxiety.

I agree. However, Diving in at a huge meet like the NEM LMSC SCY. for 200 BR and having your goggles fill with water really cures your fears.:lmao:

Sometimes having something go wrong early in your masters career is a good thing.

That's the best thing about this forum;the encouragement to compete but without pressure. I know there are a few folks that wouldn't have bothered to compete without the urging from the folks here.

The Fortress
July 7th, 2008, 11:00 PM
I agree. However, diving in at a huge meet like the NEM LMSC SCY. for 200 BR and having your goggles fill with water really cures your fears.:lmao:

At least you didn't DQ when your goggles landed at the neck and you had no spare contacts. At that point, it was either humiliation or driving home. I opted to drive home. Haven't swum the 200 IM since!

That Guy
July 7th, 2008, 11:31 PM
I agree. However, Diving in at a huge meet like the NEM LMSC SCY. for 200 BR and having your goggles fill with water really cures your fears.:lmao:


Senior year of college, conference championships, 1650 free, championship final, my goggles filled with water on the dive. I couldn't see much so I just swam my own race. It turned out ok.

SwimStud
July 7th, 2008, 11:39 PM
Senior year of college, conference championships, 1650 free, championship final, my goggles filled with water on the dive. I couldn't see much so I just swam my own race. It turned out ok.

hehe I thought 8 lengths was a long way with no vision !

ensignada
July 7th, 2008, 11:46 PM
What are you talking about? Masters meets are more enjoyable, no pressure at all... Just like Lindsay says, master swim meets are more inclusive, and that's the point I was previously trying to make.

Fortress put it well - for those who've discovered the sport later in life or those with no meet experience, meets can be intimidating. I gradually warmed to the idea enough to give it a try, and I had fun - even the time I lost track of where I was and swam right into the wall. I just think things of this nature are better left to individual discretion and comfort level.

:frustrated: <----- me

JMiller
July 8th, 2008, 12:54 AM
It's much easier compared to racing heats and finals in the 50, 100, 200, 400 free, 100, 200 back, 100 fly, 200 IM and all the relays, 20+ times a year, (not to mention the training) just so the club I paid could score more points on the National charts. This was required, just to be on the team.

So many young swimmers quit, and they equate "swimming" with that kind of program, they lose interest quickly... Masters is better, but how would they know if they've never been part of this environment.


Jonathan:

It's easy for you to say there's no pressure at a masters meet.

dorothyrde
July 8th, 2008, 07:23 AM
It's much easier compared to racing heats and finals in the 50, 100, 200, 400 free, 100, 200 back, 100 fly, 200 IM and all the relays, 20+ times a year, (not to mention the training) just so the club I paid could score more points on the National charts. This was required, just to be on the team.

So many young swimmers quit, and they equate "swimming" with that kind of program, they lose interest quickly... Masters is better, but how would they know if they've never been part of this environment.


My 20 year old got so burned out, that he left the pool at 17, and has not shown interest in getting back to it yet. If I tried to push him, it would make it worse. Lately, he has been doing a lot of running and biking, and I noticed his swim equipment was taken to his room, so he is thinking about something. I may see if he wants to jump in and swim some 50's this winter at Nadine's meet, he might be ready by January. But, if I push him to do it, he would go the other way. He needs to find it by himself, not be forced.

My daughter is completely laid back and non-competive in nature. She is only 15, but I think she will love masters, and can be pushed to try it at 18.

I think people need to find these things on their own time, and it depends on their personality. If they were the intense type that pushed themselves hard, they just may need a break.

SwimStud
July 8th, 2008, 08:19 AM
Lately, he has been doing a lot of running and biking, and I noticed his swim equipment was taken to his room, so he is thinking about something.

Dortothy, seek immediate help.. he may be thinking about a Triathlon!

Seriuously though if he does tri's that awesome;he'll get back to the water in his own time.

thewookiee
July 8th, 2008, 10:00 AM
So many young swimmers quit, and they equate "swimming" with that kind of program, they lose interest quickly... Masters is better, but how would they know if they've never been part of this environment.


Then ENCOURAGE them to come to a master's practice..not require a meet. Give them the chance to see what a master's practice is about w/o them being forced to have to go to another meet.

I don't think you get it either...some of the people quit swimming simply because they don't want to do it anymore. It has nothing to do with making "the big show". Rather, it has to do with them wanting to do other things with their lives. Some find their way to masters swimming when they are ready but it has to be up to them.

ensignada
July 8th, 2008, 10:07 AM
It's much easier compared to racing heats and finals in the 50, 100, 200, 400 free, 100, 200 back, 100 fly, 200 IM and all the relays, 20+ times a year, (not to mention the training) just so the club I paid could score more points on the National charts. This was required, just to be on the team.

:applaud: :notworthy: :mooning:

The Fortress
July 8th, 2008, 10:15 AM
It's much easier compared to racing heats and finals in the 50, 100, 200, 400 free, 100, 200 back, 100 fly, 200 IM and all the relays, 20+ times a year, (not to mention the training) just so the club I paid could score more points on the National charts. This was required, just to be on the team.

All right, so it's easier for you. What about the other 99.9% of USMS swimming? Plus, as John notes, people that competed when young often need a nice long break before they can even stomach getting back in the pool for a meet.

JMiller
July 8th, 2008, 10:54 AM
That's just it though, they need a break because of how intense age-group swimming can be. I'm not talking about forcing non-swimmers to race, or telling swimmers who already quit to race masters. I'm talking about adding an element to the swimmers who are already doing the program. This would hopefully help them to see another option as they age.

I quit for 4 years from 1998-2002, and was confused. I loved swimming, but I hated the cost, emotionally and financially. If only I knew about masters, in terms of the positive outlook on swimming as an adult, but that wasn't my experience, because no-one was promoting this within the club system.

Even the high-performance coaches may see an added benefit for this, because if an athlete does feel burnt-out, perhaps a few years in a relaxed atmposphere may be the solution. All I know is when I was 18 I could have really used a few positive role-models that showed me an alternative.



My 20 year old got so burned out, that he left the pool at 17, and has not shown interest in getting back to it yet. If I tried to push him, it would make it worse. Lately, he has been doing a lot of running and biking, and I noticed his swim equipment was taken to his room, so he is thinking about something. I may see if he wants to jump in and swim some 50's this winter at Nadine's meet, he might be ready by January. But, if I push him to do it, he would go the other way. He needs to find it by himself, not be forced.

My daughter is completely laid back and non-competive in nature. She is only 15, but I think she will love masters, and can be pushed to try it at 18.

I think people need to find these things on their own time, and it depends on their personality. If they were the intense type that pushed themselves hard, they just may need a break.

Ripple
July 8th, 2008, 11:17 AM
[quote=LindsayNB;140064]Part of the Masters Swimming Canada one year plan is to promote clubs holding time trials during practices, both informal timings and formal/official time trials. Hopefully the opportunity to participate within your club, during regular workout times, with the emphasis on getting a time versus "competing" will be at least a little less intimidating than regular competition...quote]

Unfortunately, like everything else in Calgary, the clubs are over-subscribed. The only ones that don't have long waiting lists are the ones that meet at odd times, such as 10:00 a.m.. (Strangely enough, my employer wants me to be at my desk working at that time.) I tend to satisfy my competitive urges by surreptitiously "racing" other lap swimmers in the city pool. Hopefully I can find a class this fall where flip turns and diving are taught.

abc
July 8th, 2008, 11:42 AM
There are a lot of Canadians on this board and you're all weird :canada:. As a U.S. citizen, I don't understand any of your socialized or fascist ideas. Keep your socialized medicine, Celine Dions, and Avril Lavignes to yourselves. Also, the girl swimmers for the U.S. could beat the guy swimmers from the Canadian Trials. Also note, I am married to a Canadian, so spare me your bashing or flaming comments. Also, a note on the note above, I am being sarcastic, so once again, your angry comments will be ignored. Note to the aforementioned note, I hope the Americans on this board know what I'm saying because I don't.

JMiller
July 8th, 2008, 01:19 PM
We had 8 men go :49 or faster this year in the 100 free LCM
That's pretty good considering our population is 1/10th the size, and we all live in igloo's, we actually have to melt the ice, just to swim. We learn how to swim from watching our national bird, the penguin.

Joking aside, our coaches are starting to realize a better way to train.


The girl swimmers for the U.S. could beat the guy swimmers from the Canadian Trials.

LindsayNB
July 8th, 2008, 01:32 PM
I'm sure if we had of had LZR suits for our trials they would have gone 47s like everyone else... ;)

dorothyrde
July 8th, 2008, 02:04 PM
That's just it though, they need a break because of how intense age-group swimming can be. I'm not talking about forcing non-swimmers to race, or telling swimmers who already quit to race masters. I'm talking about adding an element to the swimmers who are already doing the program. This would hopefully help them to see another option as they age.

I quit for 4 years from 1998-2002, and was confused. I loved swimming, but I hated the cost, emotionally and financially. If only I knew about masters, in terms of the positive outlook on swimming as an adult, but that wasn't my experience, because no-one was promoting this within the club system.

Even the high-performance coaches may see an added benefit for this, because if an athlete does feel burnt-out, perhaps a few years in a relaxed atmposphere may be the solution. All I know is when I was 18 I could have really used a few positive role-models that showed me an alternative.

What you might be forgetting from that time.....how you don't want adults, particularily your parents telling you what to do. There certainly is confusion, but there is also a strong desire to figure that confusion out all by themselves. I think since my son is such a strong athlete, having him jump into a 50 fly for fun, at a small little meet would be better than going to practice with a bunch of "old" people, which would include his Mom. He told me he loved the meets, it was getting into town for all the practices, and missing out being with his friends(no swimming at our HS, so no swimming friends within the HS), got to be a grunge.

SwimStud
July 8th, 2008, 02:15 PM
What you might be forgetting from that time.....how you don't want adults, particularily your parents telling you what to do. There certainly is confusion, but there is also a strong desire to figure that confusion out all by themselves. I think since my son is such a strong athlete, having him jump into a 50 fly for fun, at a small little meet would be better than going to practice with a bunch of "old" people, which would include his Mom. He told me he loved the meets, it was getting into town for all the practices, and missing out being with his friends(no swimming at our HS, so no swimming friends within the HS), got to be a grunge.
Dorothy, from what you describe I am sure he'll be back at some point to USMS, if not before then definitely when the lbs build up a little and injuries start to reduce the amount of intesity of other sports. He doesn't have to swim with you. He can train alone on his schedule and get decent results.

3strokes
July 8th, 2008, 02:18 PM
There are a lot of Canadians on this board and you're all weird :canada:.


As a matter of fact, we're all weird (you and us).


snip ..............

Keep your socialized medicine, Celine Dions


You've got her in Vegas; YOU keep her.



Also, the girl swimmers for the U.S. could beat the guy swimmers from the Canadian Trials.


Numbers and names, please. (and I'm not saying you might not be right.)



Also note, I am married to a Canadian,


That might explain your negative feelings...............:)



I am being sarcastic,


Me too

Cheers

JMiller
July 9th, 2008, 01:23 AM
Actually, I listened to my parents, or rather my mother. She was of the opinion that if I didn't make money it wasn't worth doing. There was no way they were going to put another penny into my swimming. How could I argue, the year before they spent over $30,000 just so I could compete at an international level.

So at 18 I was a wreck.

The thing is, the year before at 17 I was the fastest in all history for the 100 free in my province for 15-17, #1 in Canada that year, and 9th in the World for 17 and under. Yet, I couldn't pay rent. So now I'm of the opinion that there should be age-group carding, and I'll spend the rest of my life working towards making that a reality. If you're top 8 in the country in 11-12,13-14, or 15-17 you should have financial support.


What you might be forgetting from that time.....how you don't want adults, particularily your parents telling you what to do.

geochuck
July 9th, 2008, 02:05 AM
I am not even going to comment on this thread except our mosquitoes are bigger.

dorothyrde
July 9th, 2008, 06:19 AM
Actually, I listened to my parents, or rather my mother. She was of the opinion that if I didn't make money it wasn't worth doing. There was no way they were going to put another penny into my swimming. How could I argue, the year before they spent over $30,000 just so I could compete at an international level.

So at 18 I was a wreck.

The thing is, the year before at 17 I was the fastest in all history for the 100 free in my province for 15-17, #1 in Canada that year, and 9th in the World for 17 and under. Yet, I couldn't pay rent. So now I'm of the opinion that there should be age-group carding, and I'll spend the rest of my life working towards making that a reality. If you're top 8 in the country in 11-12,13-14, or 15-17 you should have financial support.

Interesting thought. We spent no where near that amount, but it is quite expensive to have a child or two or three in swimming, not just money, but time as well. How do you pay for that financial support? By raising everyone's membership fees? Also, I wonder if this might make it worse for the "pushed" 12 year old. I saw too many of those in my day.

Incidently, my son asked where the pool schedule for open swims was yesterday. Does not mean he will go, but does look like he might be interested. I think we need a pool that is open all night though, he is very much a night owl!

thewookiee
July 9th, 2008, 07:49 AM
The thing is, the year before at 17 I was the fastest in all history for the 100 free in my province for 15-17, #1 in Canada that year, and 9th in the World for 17 and under. Yet, I couldn't pay rent. So now I'm of the opinion that there should be age-group carding, and I'll spend the rest of my life working towards making that a reality. If you're top 8 in the country in 11-12,13-14, or 15-17 you should have financial support.


I thought the first idea was dumb...I was wrong. This idea is even worse. You talk about wanting swimming to be fun,enjoyable, how great a sport is for people. You talk about how you are tired of seeing young people quit the sport for various reasons.
Well, this idea will have them fleeing in masses at the age group level. There are parents that put a lot of undo pressure on kids at any sport. If age groupers(not pro's) were to start getting money for it, even if it were for travel, training, there would be tons more put on kids than there is now.
If one kid was good enough to get money at 11-12 and then aged up, that kid would start getting even more pressure to continue to get the money, esp. if their times were a bit behind at the next level.
Besides, what happens if a kid gets injured or sick(like mono) where they miss a big part of the season, then they lose money and get more crap from their parents to rush back into training too soon, just because they will feel the need not to let parents down.
This idea is so stupid it's not even funny

geochuck
July 9th, 2008, 09:03 AM
$30,000 where did you swim? WOW $2,500 a month. Our club charged $15.00 a year. Did you swim at the Winter Club in TO? You must have been involved in swimming in Alberta when they were using a has been Australian Coach.

Lots of parents sent their kinds to chase a dream coaches. When their kids could probably receive better coaching at the local club. That is when kids all over the country went to swim at a club 1500 or 2000 miles away. That is costly.

There were no Universities in Canada offering scholarships. But the good local coaches managed to get them scholarships in USA schools. My brother had a few swimmers go to U of Maryland.

LindsayNB
July 9th, 2008, 09:10 AM
If you're top 8 in the country in 11-12,13-14, or 15-17 you should have financial support.

Can you elaborate on why an 11 or 12 year old should be paid to swim?

dorothyrde
July 9th, 2008, 09:37 AM
Our club dues at the highest level is 125.00 per month. Then the cost of meets, usually a 3 day meet will cost you around 50.00 in fees, cost of staying in a hotel, cost of equipment, gas to get to practice and meets. For us, it was around 2K for the more competive kid, 1k for the less competive kid(she simply did not want to compete that much and was in a lower training level, so not as much monthly fees). Pool time these days is quite expensive, upwards to 60 per hour. Clubs have to pass that on to the swimmer, so it gets expensive.

JMiller
July 9th, 2008, 11:46 AM
The money goes to the parents, obviously. At least this way there would be positive support to continue swimming, it's not like it would even be enough to cover the "total" cost.

People talk about pressure, and somehow having financial support would cause more pressure. That is ridiculous when you compare to the reality... Mom and Dad are broke, little jonny made the national cut, so dad has to work triple over-time to pay for his son's swimming. Mom and Dad fight constantly, some parents get divorced. You want to talk about pressure?


Can you elaborate on why an 11 or 12 year old should be paid to swim?

JMiller
July 9th, 2008, 11:55 AM
The pool/club fees were about $350 per month, plus we were "required" to go to 3 Nationals per year if we hoped to make the National team. There was 4 traveling training camps that year, one was on another continent, and about 15 inter-provincial competitions. If you add up the flights, hotels, food, and double pool-time costs, 30k was done cheaply.

The thing is, I could have trained just as hard for $35/month, which is what I do now, as a master.


$30,000 where did you swim? WOW $2,500 a month. Our club charged $15.00 a year.

geochuck
July 9th, 2008, 11:58 AM
J

I tried to get help for up and coming swimmers in 1958. It always fell on deaf ears.

My proposal was that we have paid coaches and paid for pool times so the cost for parents would be minimal.

I later made it possible for the government to pay a traveling swim adviser. The swim adviser was working with several clubs. This swim adviser himself ended the programme, he was caught in a raid where a Marijuana distributor was weighing out his sales stash and he was fired.

JMiller
July 9th, 2008, 12:12 PM
The money doesn't have to come from the government. A business approach with shares invested in brand recognition. I wonder what the odds of Dara Torres winning the Olympic trials were? 100 to 1? That sounds like a good return on an investment.


Jonathan

I tried to get help for up and coming swimmers in 1958. It always fell on deaf ears.
My proposal was that we have paid coaches and paid for pool times so the cost for parents would be minimal.
I later made it possible for the government to pay a traveling swim adviser.

anita
July 9th, 2008, 12:19 PM
When I burned out at 18, you could not have paid me to enter the water again. My body and mind needed time to get as far away from the smell of chlorine as possible. I also needed to try some other physical activities--anything other than swimming. I lifted weights, did aerobics, walked, ran, whatever.

I've come back to the pool at 41 and know only 2 people from my large team who continued to swim after college. When you are pushed as hard as we were to attain Nationals or whatever the goal is, you cannot be pushed. You have to wait until you're mentally ready.


What you might be forgetting from that time.....how you don't want adults, particularily your parents telling you what to do. There certainly is confusion, but there is also a strong desire to figure that confusion out all by themselves. I think since my son is such a strong athlete, having him jump into a 50 fly for fun, at a small little meet would be better than going to practice with a bunch of "old" people, which would include his Mom. He told me he loved the meets, it was getting into town for all the practices, and missing out being with his friends(no swimming at our HS, so no swimming friends within the HS), got to be a grunge.

geochuck
July 9th, 2008, 12:28 PM
J

For one thing we live in the most reserved country in the world, Canada. Very few corporate sponsors here. If they were to sponsor anything the return would have to be worth investing and have a massive return.

JMiller
July 9th, 2008, 12:30 PM
Also, the training program you were told to do was probably ridiculous.
If you trained properly back then, you might not have burnt-out at all.
http://forums.usms.org/showpost.php?p=137374&postcount=194


When I burned out at 18, you could not have paid me to enter the water again. My body and mind needed time to get as far away from the smell of chlorine as possible. I also needed to try some other physical activities--anything other than swimming. I lifted weights, did aerobics, walked, ran, whatever.

I've come back to the pool at 41 and know only 2 people from my large team who continued to swim after college. When you are pushed as hard as we were to attain Nationals or whatever the goal is, you cannot be pushed. You have to wait until you're mentally ready.

JMiller
July 9th, 2008, 12:39 PM
I'm not talking about sponsorship. Anyone can purchase a share of a public company geared towards brand recognition.


Jonathan
For one thing we live in the most reserved country in the world, Canada. Very few corporate sponsors here.

LindsayNB
July 9th, 2008, 12:44 PM
The pool/club fees were about $350 per month, plus we were "required" to go to 3 Nationals per year if we hoped to make the National team. There was 4 traveling training camps that year, one was on another continent, and about 15 inter-provincial competitions. If you add up the flights, hotels, food, and double pool-time costs, 30k was done cheaply.

The thing is, I could have trained just as hard for $35/month, which is what I do now, as a master.

It seems like there ought to be a middle ground between $420 and $30,000.

LindsayNB
July 9th, 2008, 12:51 PM
I'm not talking about sponsorship. Anyone can purchase a share of a public company geared towards brand recognition.

You have brought this up a few times, you should really elaborate on this idea so that people can either get on board or explain to you why it won't work. The whole vague/mystery approach doesn't work. Brands are generally only as valuable as their ability to generate revenue. Despite the .com boom people who invest money want a return on investment.

JMiller
July 9th, 2008, 01:08 PM
Okay, here's a good example.

Dara Torres. We have a public trading company established, where you can purchase a share of the Torres brand. It might have cost you $1 back in 1978. You watch her career, you invest more as time goes on. The company produces accesory products, the value goes up.
Now at age 41, she is thought to have no chance at all, yet she defies the odds, you win.

A Phelps-Lochte-Beard ticket might be really expensive right now, say $200 per share, but what will they do at the Olympics? Or, how many accessory products can the brand sell? It may have been better to invest $1-2 when the ticket was cheaper 10 years ago, either way, as a joe-public sport enthusiast you can decide where to spend your money, and share the dream.


You have brought this up a few times, you should really elaborate on this idea so that people can either get on board or explain to you why it won't work. The whole vague/mystery approach doesn't work. Brands are generally only as valuable as their ability to generate revenue. Despite the .com boom people who invest money want a return on investment.

anita
July 9th, 2008, 02:16 PM
In total agreement--it was ridiculous. But still...when you burn out, you burn out, regardless.
When my son eventually stops playing hockey I'm not going to push him to play adult hockey. He knows it's available as he watches his dad play, but it's up to him, not me.


Also, the training program you were told to do was probably ridiculous.
If you trained properly back then, you might not have burnt-out at all.
http://forums.usms.org/showpost.php?p=137374&postcount=194

geochuck
July 9th, 2008, 03:22 PM
We would have 70,000 swimmers in Canada with corporate web sites saying please donate and help me achieve my goals.

LindsayNB
July 9th, 2008, 04:11 PM
I can't see how it would be feasible to have a web site let alone a publicly traded company per swimmer. The market for accessories just wouldn't support it.

My first thought was some sort of organized betting system would be more feasible and frankly in the same spirit as you are suggesting. I'm sure swim meets would be more entertaining if they were more like the horse races, but gambling has its own set of issues.

Perhaps they could set up a "American Swimmer" show where people vote swimmers onto and off of the Olympic team, with each vote putting a small charge on your phone bill or whatever. That would be much more democratic than this fastest two swimmers go stuff! :D

JMiller
July 10th, 2008, 01:02 AM
One company that handles the exchange between the athletes and the general public. Whatever you want to call it, what is needed is a mechanism for investment and product development, a share that can be purchased by the average consumer.


I can't see how it would be feasible to have a web site let alone a publicly traded company per swimmer.

LindsayNB
July 10th, 2008, 10:57 AM
One company that handles the exchange between the athletes and the general public. Whatever you want to call it, what is needed is a mechanism for investment and product development, a share that can be purchased by the average consumer.

Ok, so now clarify what it is that investors expect to get back from their investment? Are they making a donation in hopes of helping the swimmer or in hopes of getting a financial payback?

I think the basic fact you may be missing is that swimming in general is not a profitable activity. For the most part swimming is a mechanism for transferring money from parents and governments to swim wear companies, coaches, and governing bodies. In the process the swimmers receive numerous benefits from participation, but for the most part those benefits are not financial.

The most basic issue with swimming is that it is a great participant sport but a not very good spectator sport. The reasons that swimming is not a good spectator sport are pretty fundamental, the most important being that a swim race is very short and very simple, which is a bad recipe for interesting. And adding "personality" to a basically flawed product will only improve things to a very limited extent, there are lots of better venues for showcasing personality. For the most part grafting on nationalism is the only way to get your average Joe to care which of eight swimmers touched the wall 0.04 seconds earlier than the others.

Take almost any swim race, slow down the clock a little so the clock says the swimmers are at world record pace and everyone will be excited, speed the clock up so the times are considered slow and everyone will be disappointed. How many people can tell the difference between a world record swim and a mere international level swim without reference to a clock?

That said I admit that I enjoy watching swimming.

JMiller
July 10th, 2008, 12:43 PM
When you buy a share, there is the chance you'll increase equity, depending on market values. That's precisely how the average consumer will become more interested.


Ok, so now clarify what it is that investors expect to get back from their investment?

The only way to get your average Joe to care which of eight swimmers touched the wall 0.04 seconds earlier than the others.

LindsayNB
July 10th, 2008, 01:38 PM
When you buy a share, there is the chance you'll increase equity, depending on market values. That's precisely how the average consumer will become more interested.

Market value generally only increases if revenue increases, scams and bubbles excepted.

If your concept is that people will become interested in swimming because they have money "invested" in them I think you are headed more in the direction of gambling than in investment. An investment increases in value when its ability to generate revenue increases. An investment that relies purely on future investors investing more money is generally called a scam and is usually illegal.

In sports money comes either from corporations (generally) that want to improve their brand, and hence their ability to generate revenue, by association with an athlete or team or event, OR it comes from selling entertainment to spectators, or often a mix of the two.

If you have a sport that isn't as interesting to watch as the other sports competing for attention you can only hope to capture a relatively small niche market. If all you've got to sell is branded tshirts you've got another pretty limited market.

I may be wrong and you may be right but if you can't do a better job of articulating your value proposition you aren't going to get people to invest.

During the Olympics they often have campaigns to send a fan message to the athletes, maybe they could have a program to send $1 or $5 to an athlete that just won a medal for your country or otherwise impressed you. It would be interesting to see how many people would do so if you made it extremely easy to do so.

JMiller
July 10th, 2008, 02:09 PM
Lindsay,

I'm not trying to prove one particular view is right or wrong. I'm trying to show an alternative option moving forward, a viable way of generating more interest in the sport.

You look to the past and say, "this is the way it always was, so that's why it will always be that way." Except this is the way it was because the rules at the time were counter-productive to anything different. Things have changed now, which makes this an opportunity for investment.

What is $5-10 worth, or even $100-200 for a sports enthusiast? Although right now that enthusiasm is worth-less because there isn't a direct mechanism for them to be connected to the sporting event. Purchasing shares gives the public a vested interest, a direct way of being part of the sport.




I may be wrong and you may be right but if you can't do a better job of articulating your value proposition you aren't going to get people to invest.

LindsayNB
July 10th, 2008, 03:20 PM
I'm not trying to prove anything either, I'm trying to determine for myself whether I think you have a viable idea I want to support or not.

What has changed and how will you take advantage of that change? Be specific.

All I am saying about investment is that if you want people to give you money you had better be able to answer the question of what will they get in return?
Should they expect to get their money back with interest if the swimmer succeeds?
Are they making a donation purely in the hope that good things will result and no expectation of monetary return?
Are they paying for an outlet for their enthusiasm?

Right now you are sending all sorts of mixed messages, and investors hate that. Investors want clarity.

Is your target investor someone who is enthusiastic about swimming and wants a way to be part of the swimming scene or someone with money that you think will be interested in swimming if they have money on the line?

To make it real simple, say we're in an elevator, I've got a nice crisp $100 bill, and you have 60 seconds to make me want to give it to you. What do I get out of it if I give you the $100? Sell me. And be specific.



Lindsay,

I'm not trying to prove one particular view is right or wrong. I'm trying to show an alternative option moving forward, a viable way of generating more interest in the sport.

You look to the past and say, "this is the way it always was, so that's why it will always be that way." Except this is the way it was because the rules at the time were counter-productive to anything different. Things have changed now, which makes this an opportunity for investment.

What is $5-10 worth, or even $100-200 for a sports enthusiast? Although right now that enthusiasm is worth-less because there isn't a direct mechanism for them to be connected to the sporting event. Purchasing shares gives the public a vested interest, a direct way of being part of the sport.

JMiller
July 10th, 2008, 03:56 PM
I would never try to sell you something in an elevator. Relationship sales are worth way more in the long run. I might ask for your card, and e-mail you a few investment idea's over the next few years.

Although let's say we did happen to meet in an elevator. Instead I give you $100 on one condition, you have to tell me who your favorite athlete is. If you answer Dara Torres, I'll let you keep the cash.

As far as trying to convince anyone of this idea, whether it is viable or not, that's not my motivation. In fact, if the idea does "fly" that would be enough reward in itself.


I'm not trying to prove anything either, I'm trying to determine for myself whether I think you have a viable idea I want to support or not.

To make it real simple, say we're in an elevator, I've got a nice crisp $100 bill, and you have 60 seconds to make me want to give it to you. What do I get out of it if I give you the $100? Sell me. And be specific.

Howard
July 10th, 2008, 04:06 PM
I would never try to sell you something in an elevator. Relationship sales are worth way more in the long run. I might ask for your card, and e-mail you a few investment idea's over the next few years.

Although let's say we did happen to meet in an elevator. Instead I give you $100 on one condition, you have to tell me who you're favorite athlete is. If you answer Dara Torres, I'll let you keep the cash.

As far as trying to convince anyone of this idea, whether it is viable or not, that's not my motivation. In fact, if the idea does "fly" that would be enough reward in itself.

I've read all the posts and am really trying to understand your proposal but at this point just don't get it. I love swimming and might invest but invest to me implies there will be a return of some sort. Is the return monetary? if not then what is it? This has nothing to do with how things were done in the past. I just don't get what you are asking people to do.

abc
July 10th, 2008, 04:36 PM
This is an awesome thread. If it were me, I would not buy shares of Dara Torres, sure, it’s a great pharmaceutical company, but it could suffer from litigation and lawsuits in the very foreseeable future. Instead, I would invest in a much safer blue chip company during theses tough economic times. That’s why I advise all investors to take a look at abc stock (abc is my name on this forum). It has a proven track record, great management team, and currently trades at an earnings multiple of 1 (a great buy)! After reading this thread, we will also accept purchases in dollars and loons (Canadian money)! To make your investment, just PM me and I will gladly cash your check or money order. In return, you can expect to receive a half page newsletter from me quarterly in which I outline my domination in the sport of swimming. Also, I am planning a hostile takeover in Beijing, where I will look to purchase Michael Phelps, dissolve him into several smaller companies, and sell these individual units for a total that is much greater than the current whole.

Please note, I respect everybody's opinion on this thread but think it has gotten a little out of control. I just wanted to make sure that I was part of the confusion.

Kurt Dickson
July 10th, 2008, 05:25 PM
This is an awesome thread. If it were me, I would not buy shares of Dara Torres, sure, itís a great pharmaceutical company, but it could suffer from litigation and lawsuits in the very foreseeable future. Instead, I would invest in a much safer blue chip company during theses tough economic times. Thatís why I advise all investors to take a look at abc stock (abc is my name on this forum). It has a proven track record, great management team, and currently trades at an earnings multiple of 1 (a great buy)! After reading this thread, we will also accept purchases in dollars and loons (Canadian money)! To make your investment, just PM me and I will gladly cash your check or money order. In return, you can expect to receive a half page newsletter from me quarterly in which I outline my domination in the sport of swimming. Also, I am planning a hostile takeover in Beijing, where I will look to purchase Michael Phelps, dissolve him into several smaller companies, and sell these individual units for a total that is much greater than the current whole.

Please note, I respect everybody's opinion on this thread but think it has gotten a little out of control. I just wanted to make sure that I was part of the confusion.
I concur. I was going to jump in on this thread a few days ago stating that my daughter is now eligible to swim masters and I was going to be able to compete with her at nationals this summer, then we started talking about buying shares of elite athletes. Shares do imply a return on investment--I think you would get more "return" on a crack ho.:blah:

SwimStud
July 10th, 2008, 05:42 PM
Please remember before investing in any type of share, bond, exchange traded futures, options on futures, foreign exchange, CDO, CDS, mutual fund, or fund of any kind:

"Past performance is not indicative of or a guarantee of future results."
There, you've been disclaimed!

chowmi
July 10th, 2008, 05:51 PM
I have a paperclip that I twisted in the shape of a swimmer. Anyone want to trade?

geochuck
July 10th, 2008, 06:42 PM
Please invest in me. I have to pay big bucks to swim in Gresham Oregon. The entry fees, the meals, the hotel room. I need a new car, I also had to pay for the Parties.

I will have to set up a corporate site with a paypal button on it. Donations accepted for $100.00 or you can slip it to me on the elevator at the Best Western in Gresham.

JMiller
July 10th, 2008, 11:40 PM
Lindsay,

These are good questions... I'll need more than 60 seconds. I'll work on it and come back to this dicussion.



I'm not trying to prove anything either, I'm trying to determine for myself whether I think you have a viable idea I want to support or not.

What has changed and how will you take advantage of that change? Be specific.

All I am saying about investment is that if you want people to give you money you had better be able to answer the question of what will they get in return?
Should they expect to get their money back with interest if the swimmer succeeds?
Are they making a donation purely in the hope that good things will result and no expectation of monetary return?
Are they paying for an outlet for their enthusiasm?

Right now you are sending all sorts of mixed messages, and investors hate that. Investors want clarity.

Is your target investor someone who is enthusiastic about swimming and wants a way to be part of the swimming scene or someone with money that you think will be interested in swimming if they have money on the line?

To make it real simple, say we're in an elevator, I've got a nice crisp $100 bill, and you have 60 seconds to make me want to give it to you. What do I get out of it if I give you the $100? Sell me. And be specific.

geochuck
July 11th, 2008, 09:06 AM
Jonathan

Please hurry with your answer, I need the money in a hurry. It is only one month and 3 days til the Master Swimming LC Nationals in Oregon.

Please invest in me. I have to pay big bucks to swim in Gresham Oregon. The entry fees, the meals, the hotel room. I need a new car, I also had to pay for the Parties.

I will have to set up a corporate site with a paypal button on it. Donations accepted for $100.00 or you can slip it to me on the elevator at the Best Western in Gresham.

JMiller
July 11th, 2008, 12:14 PM
I'm not trying to prove anything either, I'm trying to determine for myself whether I think you have a viable idea I want to support or not.

What has changed and how will you take advantage of that change? Be specific.

The Olympics allow professionals into the competition. Hockey/Basketball/Phelps...
The general public is now aware that in order to compete at an international level amateurism doesn't make the cut.
The rules have changed, CASA is now Swim Canada, that opens the door for investment.
To be completely fair going forward, all sports should be equal under the law. (even more changes would be beneficial)




All I am saying about investment is that if you want people to give you money you had better be able to answer the question of what will they get in return?
Should they expect to get their money back with interest if the swimmer succeeds?

Buying a share means you can sell it whenever you choose. So yes, remuneration is a likely possibility.


Are they making a donation purely in the hope that good things will result and no expectation of monetary return?
Are they paying for an outlet for their enthusiasm?

No, a donation won't motivate the masses the same way as seeing a personal benefit from an investment. That's just basic human nature, and working within those parameters would ensure a larger market potential.
Having a tangible outlet for enthusiasm in terms of dollars and cents is absolutely necessary to maximize consumer involvement. Currently this mechanism doesn't exist in swimming, which makes that an opportunity for future share-holders.

geochuck
July 12th, 2008, 12:17 PM
Jonathon I thought you may find this story in the South Delta Leader interesting. The story is about a cyclist and goes on to tell about team sponsorship.
http://www.bclocalnews.com/richmond_southdelta/southdeltaleader/news/24343714.html