Strength of top swimmers

[jordangregory]

Does anyone know how strong the top swimmers are? Guys like M. Phelps or B. Hansen, how much can they lift with their legs, bench, lat pull, curl, tri ex, etc. I am making weight training a big part of my workouts, but I understand, at a certain point, adding more muscle or strength is not going to be of much benefit.

[Jazz Hands]

Most of the lifting numbers come from skills with a particular lift. So, for example, the guys who do a lot of pullovers will have good pullover numbers, and the guys who do a lot of chin-ups will have good chin-up numbers. But the strength in the water wouldn't necessarily be different.

Also, just because elite swimmers aren't large and muscular doesn't necessarily mean it won't be beneficial for you to get stronger. A lot of Masters swimmers are pretty big, and fast because of it. Personally, I'm a lot faster at 190 pounds than I was at 160.

My advice is to just go for it, see how much stronger you can get without comparing to other people, and see if that makes a difference in your swimming speed.

[jordangregory]

I understand that getting stronger will benefit me. I am just trying to find out how strong the elite swimmers are so I can have a goal. Once I get to that strength level, I know I can spend less time concentrating on strength, and more on swimming

[Jazz Hands]

I understand that getting stronger will benefit me. I am just trying to find out how strong the elite swimmers are so I can have a goal. Once I get to that strength level, I know I can spend less time concentrating on strength, and more on swimming

Well, like I said, you can't really know how strong someone is just by looking at their lifting numbers. Some guys are just good at lifting weights, or at doing particular lifts. I've heard that Alain Bernard can bench press a pretty big amount, but I'm not going to chase that number just because a fast swimmer did it. There are other great swimmers who can't bench a broomstick, but still have strength in other ways.

[tjrpatt]

I almost got my Junior National Cut when I wasn't doing that much lifting. In my senior year of high school, I thought that I would get my cut if I stepped up the lifting. I did and swam worse that year. Of course, I had very little guidance on my lifting regiment.



I plan to get serious with my lifting in the fall with the focus on range of motion/sets than how much I lift. Also, I really need to find a good dryland program for a 200fly400IMdistancefreestyler.

[jordangregory]

If you are swimming the 400 IM, you definately don't need to be lifting a lot of weight. You need to have a great aerobic capacity. If you were lifting a lot for the 400 IM and sacrificed swimming time, I would expect your time to get worse.
I am training for the 50 and 100 breaststroke, so I am not too worried about my aerobic capacity right now. I really want to hear what some of the sprinters can lift, say in the bench press, squat, leg extention, tricep extention, lat pull, overhead pull downs (straight arm lat pull)
Anyone know where I can find workouts be Brendan Hansen

[psal137]

remember that strength training like weight training or dryland usually correlates with loss of flexibility. Not only do phelps, lochte, natalie, dara have a ridiculous strength to weight ration, but they are also unbelievably flexible. Natalie can stand up, bend over, and touch her elbows to the ground.. and just search a video of dara stretching on youtube or something and u will see what i mean.. Phelps and lochte have tremendous underwaters, and kicks due to their back, leg, and ankle flexibility. Dont think that getting stronger will help you if it is gonna make u stiff as a board

[funkyfish]

It's very possible to become stronger, even gain muscle mass, and still retain flexibility. Many professional bodybuilders can do the splits (boys and girls). Also, getting stronger does not necessarily mean that you "bulk up" or loose flexibility. Many Olympic weightlifters have to be flexible in order to perform their lifts accurately.
:weightlifter:

[rtodd]

I love guessing with absolutely no knowledge......I would guess top sprinters have around a 300lb bench plu/minus 50 and can probably do about 25-30 pull ups. This would be a guess for upper body.

Maybe lower body would be a 350lb squat.

What top swimmers can do is apply large forces for extended duration and cope with lactic acid. Weight room will not help as much here as actually swimming.

I say yes to lifting, but it cannot substitute or interfere with the pool time.

[Nathan]

I love guessing with absolutely no knowledge......I would guess top sprinters have around a 300lb bench plu/minus 50 and can probably do about 25-30 pull ups. This would be a guess for upper body.

Maybe lower body would be a 350lb squat.

What top swimmers can do is apply large forces for extended duration and cope with lactic acid. Weight room will not help as much here as actually swimming.

I say yes to lifting, but it cannot substitute or interfere with the pool time.

I don't know any professional swimmer who can push those numbers. In the pool it's all about functional strength anyway; given a particular athletes technique, things like bench press and squat aren't very useful. I think most people would be very surprised to see how little weight Olympic swimmers push on the standard lifts, but would be pretty impressed at some specialized, functional lifts.

[Jazz Hands]

I don't know any professional swimmer who can push those numbers. In the pool it's all about functional strength anyway; given a particular athletes technique, things like bench press and squat aren't very useful. I think most people would be very surprised to see how little weight Olympic swimmers push on the standard lifts, but would be pretty impressed at some specialized, functional lifts.

Nathan, I agree. Bench press and squat take a lot of skill and specific training. I think less technical lifts, like a lat pullover machine, would better show the true strength of swimmers.

[rtodd]

don't know any professional swimmer who can push those numbers. In the pool it's all about functional strength anyway; given a particular athletes technique, things like bench press and squat aren't very useful. I think most people would be very surprised to see how little weight Olympic swimmers push on the standard lifts, but would be pretty impressed at some specialized, functional lifts.

Is 300 lbs alot? Tiger Woods benches that much. Shaun Crawford benches over 350. Do you need that to run the 200? I don't think it is a reach for the fast swimmers to have impressive lifts. I bet Gary Hall Jr could bench 300 in his sleep. You may not see alot of sprinters doing it because it is not paramount to fast swimming, but that doesn't mean they can't do it. Somebody asked how much sprinters could lift, that's all.

I think less technical lifts, like a lat pullover machine, would better show the true strength of swimmers.

That's why I mentioned pull ups for reps. It's more of an indication of swimming specific strength.

[Jazz Hands]

Is 300 lbs alot? Tiger Woods benches that much. Shaun Crawford benches over 350. Do you need that to run the 200? I don't think it is a reach for the fast swimmers to have impressive lifts. I bet Gary Hall Jr could bench 300 in his sleep. You may not see alot of sprinters doing it because it is not paramount to fast swimming, but that doesn't mean they can't do it. Somebody asked how much sprinters could lift, that's all.

You can bench a lot if you are built for it and you specifically train for it. It's a technical lift. Top swimmers tend to have long arms and loose shoulders, which makes for weak bench pressing. Alain Bernard, who has to be one of the strongest elite swimmers in the world, can reportedly bench 130 kg (source (http://www.swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?id=5942)). That's under 300 pounds, but it's a good number for the swimmer body type.

Also, I think that swimmers still haven't really exploited the potential for improvement from strength training. Track sprinters are big, strong guys these days because strength is important to them. Tiger Woods also made an effort to bulk up. When you're doing the high yardage that a lot of swimmers do, strength is always going to be secondary.

[ande]

lezak looks very strong

I remember eddie telling me
as a freshman, brendan could do 40 reps on bench press with his body weight
recently I've done 5 or 6 reps with mine

the key thing for swimming is
strength vs body weight vs body shape vs swimming technique
Kirsty Coventry is very fast but not she's pretty thin and doesn't look real strong

[Nathan]

Is 300 lbs alot? Tiger Woods benches that much. Shaun Crawford benches over 350. Do you need that to run the 200? I don't think it is a reach for the fast swimmers to have impressive lifts. I bet Gary Hall Jr could bench 300 in his sleep. You may not see alot of sprinters doing it because it is not paramount to fast swimming, but that doesn't mean they can't do it. Somebody asked how much sprinters could lift, that's all.



That's why I mentioned pull ups for reps. It's more of an indication of swimming specific strength.

Yes, 300 pounds is a lot. Most people in America can't bench their own bodyweight; so 300 is a nice lift. Are there any videos of Tiger Woods benching 300? I know his trainer has said that he could do it, but I also know trainers of professional bodybuilders who claim big numbers. I find it amusing because I'm friends with a couple of such bodybuilders who even laugh at the claims because they don't push anywhere near that :)

I have also had the chance to train in the weight room with many Olympic swimmers, some which I've trained some I've just lifted with, and none have put up those kinds of big numbers. I'm just saying from my own experiences with knowing many of these athletes personally, they don't go for the amount of weight so they never build those kinds of lifts. Could they? Sure, and lots of people could. I'm just saying I haven't seen it and have had some first hand experience. All that said, I certainly haven't even trained with a majority of top level swimmers, so I'm sure there are the exceptions.

[jordangregory]

After reading all the replies to my original question, it seems that no one really knows what the top sprint swimmers are doing in the weight room. In light of current research in the field of exercise science, I would imagine that sprinters have a variety of different phases to their weight training. A general conditioning time, a time for building muscle, a time for building strength, and a time to do more sport specific stuff at high velocities. I really would like to know what numbers these sprint swimmers put up during their strength building phase, just so I can have a goal to shoot for.
I understand that at a point, adding strength is not beneficial for swimming, since lifting speeds at high weights tends to be a slow velocity movement (not very sport specific), but I am just not sure what that point is. Without the reasearch being their specifically on swimmers, the best invesigation I can do is finding out what the best are doing right now.

[thewookiee]

[QUOTE=jordangregory;141725] I really would like to know what numbers these sprint swimmers put up during their strength building phase, just so I can have a goal to shoot for.
QUOTE]


I think you have missed what the people who know weight lifting are saying. Each top level sprinter is different in the amount and types of lifting they are doing.

Alain Bernard looks huge. He maybe able to lift a lot of weight. Eamon Sullivan, on the other hand looks like a stick figure. He may not be able to lift the same amount or types of weight. Yet, both of them swim within 1 tenth of a second of each other in the 50 and 100 frees.

Decide the lifts that you want to do and do them the best you can do, without worrying about what someone else can do.

[abc]

I used to train with top-level swimmers around a decade ago. I don’t know any of the elite swimmers these days, but I do have some old school perspective. I could definitely bench 300 while in college and swimming (I did it fairly easily at a weight of 185 my senior year). My strength also greatly declined when the swimming yardage went up, so when I was broken down, my lifting numbers also decreased. Hitting good numbers in the weight room for a lift like the bench press is fairly irrelevant for most swimmers. Swimmer aren’t football players. Some of the fastest guys I knew would rep around 185 to 200. When I quit swimming, there was a period when I focused on lifting and all of my numbers dramatically increased. I was stronger for those lifts, but that doesn’t mean that I was a faster swimmer, it just means I could bench/squat/deadlift more. It’s funny because most swimmers (sprinters) have physiques more closely resembling basketball players (who rely on quickness), and yet no one is that concerned about Michael Jordan’s bench press. For the sprints, it’s about quickness and power, but not the kind of power that you need for a deadlift. In the end, swimmers are fairly weak compared to other athletes that utilize movements that more closely mimic their sport. I absolutely believe that lifting is critical to going fast in swimming; however, I don’t believe a swimmer will ever push big weights relative to other power sports. Look at Ben Wildman-Tobriner. He tore things while bench pressing, probably with an amount of weight suitable for a girl, and yet he made the team in the 50 free. As for guys like Tiger Woods, benching 300 is very believable to me (and really not that impressive), especially since his sport doesn’t involve tearing down his body. As a matter of fact, I would be very surprised if he couldn’t do it. It’s funny to me that he suffered a knee injury though. Maybe golf is a contact sport after all. In the end, I don't know much but it's my two cents.

[jordangregory]

thewookiee,
I know a little bit about weight lifting, and I am sure I am not missing what everyone is saying. Regardless of whether I agree with them or not on their philosophy of weight lifting, strength and swimming speed, I still want to know how much these guys can lift. I am pretty sure I won't find out here.:thhbbb:

[thewookiee]

Then you need to pick a specific guy...cause everyone lifts a different amount and probably does a different routine.

[LindsayNB]

Well, you got at least one specific number from Ande, Brendan doing 40 reps of his body weight.

[thewookiee]

True...wonder what he does now...several years after his freshman year

[jordangregory]

In my original post I asked about Brendan Hansen and Phelps.

[rtodd]

Maybe sites like timed finals will have an answer for you. Maybe you can get flowswimming to actually ask them.

[Chris Stevenson]

Does anyone know how strong the top swimmers are? Guys like M. Phelps or B. Hansen, how much can they lift with their legs, bench, lat pull, curl, tri ex, etc. I am making weight training a big part of my workouts, but I understand, at a certain point, adding more muscle or strength is not going to be of much benefit.

I think absolute strength in the weight room is very weakly correlated (if at all) with swimming prowess. If I look on the blocks next to me and see someone who is obviously a strong man, I certainly do not faint in fear. I've known many very strong men who were marginal swimmers, and many very fast swimmers who were less than impressive in the weight room.

I am NOT saying that lifting is bad for swimming, but I think that the "strength," in the sense that you originally asked, of the top swimmers is all over the map.

Use strength training to improve your explosive power, sprint speed, and muscular endurance. I think it is a bad idea to compare yourself to anyone else's strength and think you're doing fine (or not).

[rtodd]

Chris, totally on board with you. I think the guy is just curious and I hope he does not put too much stock in lifting weights as we have been pointing out. Actually, I am curious as well For the 50m guys I think it is MUCHO.

[jordangregory]

I have to say, after reading all the answers, I am not finding things that match up with reality. It seems that you all, as a whole, don't think weight lifting is that important. There are guys that are strong and swim fast, and their are guys that are not strong and they also swim fast. Seems like it really doesn't matter.
That mentality flies in the face of a few things. First, men are stronger than women. Men swim faster based on that fact.
Second, Dara Tores has severely tweaked her training. Old school days she was doing little in the weight room and 40K per week. Now she is at 20K per week and lifting her butt off. She is now faster, even with age related changes that should make her slower.

[CaliSwimmer]

I have to say, after reading all the answers, I am not finding things that match up with reality. It seems that you all, as a whole, don't think weight lifting is that important. There are guys that are strong and swim fast, and their are guys that are not strong and they also swim fast. Seems like it really doesn't matter.
That mentality flies in the face of a few things. First, men are stronger than women. Men swim faster based on that fact.
Second, Dara Tores has severely tweaked her training. Old school days she was doing little in the weight room and 40K per week. Now she is at 20K per week and lifting her butt off. She is now faster, even with age related changes that should make her slower.

My hunch is that quality, targeted strength-training for women produces relatively better results in swimming than it does for men because women have to work much harder to build muscle (thanks to all the estrogen, I guess), whereas men can be naturally more muscular without really working at it and they might easily cross a certain tipping point where they get too much muscle and it actually hurts their swim times. So a woman who adds muscle can probably improve her times (relatively) more than a full-grown guy (teens don't count).

In the same way, perhaps flexibility- and balance-training like pilates and yoga would benefit male swimmers more than females. (Not as a replacement for weights and time in the water, obviously, but as an addition).

[thewookiee]

Actually, if you read interviews with her, she has pointed out several times that she is lifting a lot lighter nowadays. She said that 8 years ago, it was about heavy weights and few reps. Now, it is about lifting lighter weights with movements that are more swim specific.

The people aren't saying that a good weight training isn't important. What is being said that trying to judge what YOU do versus what SOMEONE else does isn't a good way to tell if you are doing what is best for you or will even help you be a better swimmer.

[Jazz Hands]

I have to say, after reading all the answers, I am not finding things that match up with reality. It seems that you all, as a whole, don't think weight lifting is that important. There are guys that are strong and swim fast, and their are guys that are not strong and they also swim fast. Seems like it really doesn't matter.
That mentality flies in the face of a few things. First, men are stronger than women. Men swim faster based on that fact.
Second, Dara Tores has severely tweaked her training. Old school days she was doing little in the weight room and 40K per week. Now she is at 20K per week and lifting her butt off. She is now faster, even with age related changes that should make her slower.

I think strength is very important. The men versus women argument is one I've made many times before.

In fact, I'm so convinced of the importance of strength training that I'm telling you that it absolutely doesn't matter what any other swimmer can do in the weight room. What you need to do is get in there, get stronger, and keep getting stronger until it stops making you swim faster.

[Chris Stevenson]

First, men are stronger than women. Men swim faster based on that fact.

I don't have to look very far to find some 15-year-old girls with sticks for arms who can swam faster than 99.99% of all USMS males.

[rtodd]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jasonlezak1.htm

Lezak lays out a routine but gives no numbers.

[Chris Stevenson]

It seems that you all, as a whole, don't think weight lifting is that important.

I don't believe anyone is saying that. I do weights 2-3 times a week and it is an important part of my training.

I just do not spend any time worrying even the tinest little bit how my numbers compare to anyone else's, just how they compare to my previous numbers.

The only numbers that matter are the ones that appear on the scoreboard after the race.

[ande]

very true
kirsty is not a big strong girl
swimming speed is a function of
body shape + technique + conditioning
remember build a better boat

I don't have to look very far to find some 15-year-old girls with sticks for arms who can swam faster than 99.99% of all USMS males.

[jordangregory]

I don't have to look very far to find some 15-year-old girls with sticks for arms who can swam faster than 99.99% of all USMS males.

I agree in a distance event, even a 200 that it is easy to find a young girl who can out swim USMS males. I currently swim with a girl who has All American times in the 400 free and destroys me in practice when we do aerobic stuff, but I can outswim her in the 50 free and any breaststroke event.

[3strokes]

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jasonlezak1.htm

Lezak lays out a routine but gives no numbers.

I haven't seen any "abs" work there .................

[Chris Stevenson]

I agree in a distance event, even a 200 that it is easy to find a young girl who can out swim USMS males. I currently swim with a girl who has All American times in the 400 free and destroys me in practice when we do aerobic stuff, but I can outswim her in the 50 free and any breaststroke event.

Sorry, when you said "strength of top swimmers," I didn't realize you only meant sprinters.

The 400 free is not an aerobic event in the true sense of the word, you are well above lactate threshold for the entire race. That is true of the vast majority of pool events.

[jordangregory]

Sorry, when you said "strength of top swimmers," I didn't realize you only meant sprinters.

The 400 free is not an aerobic event in the true sense of the word, you are well above lactate threshold for the entire race. That is true of the vast majority of pool events.

Nothing is 100% aerobic, but a 400 is better than 50% aerobic

[Chris Stevenson]

Greg, bottom line, my opinion, take it or leave it.

In your original post, you asked for lifting numbers with the idea that you wanted to get some idea of a "ceiling" that you can feel good about once you approach it; otherwise you feared would get too bulky. At least, that was how I interpreted your question.

I ABSOLUTELY think an intense strength-training program (in its broadest sense, usually taken to mean weight lifting) is a big help in swimming faster. However, I disagree with you on two key points:

-- I disagree with the notion of a ceiling. You can get stronger without adding bulk (at least, to the extent that it makes you slower).

-- I disagree with the idea of comparing numbers with other swimmers. You should look at your own numbers, try to improve them, and shake things around when you plateau.

When I look at posts by Ande or Paul W or Paul S or Jazz or anyone else about their strength training routines, I completely ignore their weights and instead look at the exercises they do, how many sets, how many reps. If it looks interesting to me then (after getting the form down, of course) I would adjust my weights to match # of reps/sets and try to increase the weight with time, in order to build strength/power in the water. I periodize by switching around exercises, or trying new ones, and changing reps and rest between sets (sometimes focus on muscular endurance, sometimes focus on power).

Good luck.

[jordangregory]

I appretiate all of your input. I am just the type that likes to discuss the points from all angles to make sure we are coming up with the correct conclusions.
Just a point of clarification, I was not worried about bulking up when I was talking about a weight lifting ceiling, I was more worried about wasting my time adding strength when it would not lead to moving my arms at a faster velocity when swimming. I know that up to a point, adding absolute strength can lead to my arms and legs moving at faster veleocitys while swimming, but at some point, the strength gains are negligable and my best bet would be sport specific stuff while maintaining strength.
When looking at the numbers of some of the top sprinting swimmers, I figured that I could get an ball park number on the potential ceiling.
From seeing all the posts here, it seems that many swimmers can sprint very fast times without much absolute strength (reley more on aerobic capacity, high anaerobic threshold) while others can also swim just as fast with more absolulte strength (reley more on great alactic capacity as well as ability to make huge amounts of lactic acid quickly). Perhaps their is more than one way to skin a cat. I would like to see someone do research that would find the optimal balance of strength and "swimming ability"
When we look at these guys with little strength, I wonder what would happen if we added a little stregth to their bodies. Something would have to give. Perhaps they would not be able to swim as many yards and they would lose someting in "swimming ability". I don't know if it would cause them to slow down, speed up, or if it would be a wash. I am assuming, that for a 50 free, it may speed up the swimmer, perhaps for a 100, it would be a wash, and anything higher it would slow them down.

[Jazz Hands]

Strength training doesn't exactly take a lot of time. You might be surprised by how much stronger you can get on a routine of two 40-minute workouts per week.

[mattson]

You also asked for a maximum lift weight. I would guess that most swimmers train for power (moderate weight over an extended time) rather than a single repetition. (Even the shortest race takes over 20 seconds.)

[ehoch]

here is one

Competitive swimmers (22 females, 18 males) were tested for arm power using an isokinetic swim bench at varying velocities that covered the range required for swimming. Subjects also performed a series of 25-yard freestyle sprints. The mean power of one maximal pull on the bench at a velocity of 2.66 meters per second was measured while the average swimming time was 1.81. The correlation coefficient between the two was .90.

An added study used four untrained subjects. Power improvements of 19% and sprint swimming improvements of 4% were demonstrated. This suggests that sprint swimmers could improve performance by increasing arm power.

It should be noted that this study focused on 25 yards of swimming, an event that is not in the competitive schedule. Other studies by these same authors show that the relationship of strength to swimming diminishes rapidly as the distance increases.

[ehoch]

Next one -

Swimming is one sport where the majority of competitors practice some form of resistance training. Although most competitive swimming distances might not be considered true endurance events, elite swimmers perform huge volumes of over-distance training. To determine whether adding resistance training to pool training might improve sprint-swim performance, Tanaka, et al. (1993) studied 24 experienced swimmers during 14 weeks of their competitive season. The swimmers were divided into two groups of 12 swimmers and matched for stroke specialities and performance. The two groups performed all swim training sessions together for the duration of the season, but in addition to the pool training, one group performed resistance training three days a week, on alternate days for eight weeks. The resistance training program was intended to simulate the muscles employed in front crawl swimming and utilized weight lifting machines as well as free weights. Swimmers performed three sets of 8-12 repetitions of the following exercises: lat pull downs, elbow extensions, bent arm flys, dips and chin ups. In order to maximize the resistance training effect, weights were progressively increased over the duration of the training period. Then both groups tapered for approximately two weeks prior to their major competition. The most important finding: resistance training did not improve sprint swim performance, despite the fact that those swimmers who combined resistance and swim training increased their strength by 25-35%. The extra strength gained from the resistance training program did not result in improved stroke mechanics. Their conclusion: "the lack of positive transfer between dry-land strength gains and swimming propulsive force may be due to the specificity of training."

[ehoch]

Interesting link -

http://www.gsv1.de/freq_speed.htm

[ehoch]

Last one :

Relationships between muscular strength and dry land power, muscular strength and swimming power, and muscular strength and competitive swimming performance were investigated in collegiate swimmers (M = 37; F = 28). Strength measures included 1 RM of the bench press, latissimus pull down, and triceps press. Dry land power was assessed using a seated chest putt and a two-arm supine overhead throw for distance using a 6-lb medicine ball. Swimming power was assessed by performing a 30-s maximal effort tethered crawl stroke swim. Competitive times for 50 and 100-m crawl strokes were used as measures of swimming performance.

For the whole group, all relationships were significant. For women, the three strength measures were related to dry land and swimming power. Only the 1 RM latissimus pull down was related to performance. For the men, muscular strength was related to dry land and swimming power but not to performance.

Contrary to the authors' interpretation of these results as being indications of an important role of strength in maximal swim velocity, when only one strength exercise in the females was related to performance and none were in the men, a contrary interpretation is warranted. These results support the contention that muscular strength is not related to sprint-swimming performance (velocity) in male or female swimmers.

[Syd]

Interesting how strength was related to swimming power and not performance. I would have thought that if power increased so would performance.

Does this necessarily, conclusively, prove there is no link between increased strength and performance? Could it, perhaps, just mean that this particular group were not able to use this increased strength to their advantage?

[Chris Stevenson]

Interesting link -

http://www.gsv1.de/freq_speed.htm

I found this to be the most interesting study of the three (though maybe it was because it was the only one I could examine in detail). The only real relationship to strength is the fact that dryland training was not included in the experimental group, so the influence of strength training on performance was not directly addressed.

Certainly the concept of getting faster while increasing both stroke rate and distance-per-stroke over the course of an entire race is simple enough, and ultimately all training programs try to do this one way or another. Just not quite so explicitly. For example:

"It has previously been reported that elite swimmers have stroke frequency-velocity curves that are shifted up and to the right, greater distances per stroke, and higher stroke rates and velocities compared to less competitive swimmers. The stroke frequency-velocity relationship, when shifted up and to the right, has been shown to be associated with a reduced energy cost of swimming. High performance is related to higher stroke rates, greater distance per stroke and the ability to sustain these throughout the race. ... improving performance would necessitate a shift in the curve up and to the right. The data from the present study demonstrate that it is possible to shift the stroke frequency-velocity curve by as much as 10% per year, or 40% over four years. ... A significant shift in the stroke frequency-velocity curve for competitive velocities would not be expected in swimmers trained with long-distance. This later hypothesis needs to be tested on a population of swimmers engaged in a contemporary over-distance-based program."

The truth (or not) of that last statement seems kind of important to verify. It seems to me that the top swimmers that come out of over-distance training are able to achieve exactly this kind of shift with such training, that's why they become good. Maybe training that is more explicitly focused on stroke frequency/velocity would achieve the same or better improvement more easily. But it might require more technically-proficient coaches to achieve.

I do wish they had chosen faster swimmers for their study, the final sentence is a little weak:

"Because we have no evidence to suggest otherwise, it is likely that this novel, unconventional training may be equally suited to elite swimmers as well as the more average athlete."

I suppose they would have trouble getting top college swimmers to agree to be guinea pigs for 4 years. Still, it is a fairly old study (2000), why couldn't they interest some better swimmers based on the results of this work?

Then again, top swimmers have presumably enjoyed much success with their high school training programs (or they wouldn't be elites!) and it might be difficult to sell them on something radical.

The training had a lot of 25s in it...I hate 25s, though I understand their necessity. And the training/taper cycle is practically imprinted into my bones since I've been doing it for much of my life, it would be hard to think of doing something so different (though the study group did have a training cycle).

Here is more about Budd Termin:

http://www.teamtermin.com/coachtermin.shtml

[ehoch]

There are a lot of holes in all these studies. For example, they will usually have one group lift and the control group will not lift. But then they have both groups the exact same swim workouts. That may make for a better research study - but is probably not the right way to account for swimmers being tired.

Also as Syd mentions - lifting will do very little if you don't transfer the strength into the water.

[Jazz Hands]

Also as Syd mentions - lifting will do very little if you don't transfer the strength into the water.

I hear this a lot, and I have no idea what it means. If you get stronger by increasing the size of muscles relevant to swimming, you will automatically have more power in the water. You don't have to do anything special to make your strength "transfer." Strength is the ability to produce force. In swimming, you produce useful force in the water through a specialized technique. This is called swimming-specific strength. If you apply the technique you already know with stronger muscles, your swimming-specific strength improves.

[ehoch]

I have no idea what it means. If you get stronger by increasing the size of muscles relevant to swimming, you will automatically have more power in the water.

If it was that easy, more swimmers would have better results with strength training. Strength training is VERY specific. Just because you get 20% stronger in lat pulldowns, does not mean you are going to drop 2/10 in your 50 time as many studies have shown.

Transferring it into the water usually means some sort of resistance work in the water. I use a parachute and it seems to work for me.

[Jazz Hands]

If it was that easy, more swimmers would have better results with strength training. Strength training is VERY specific. Just because you get 20% stronger in lat pulldowns, does not mean you are going to drop 2/10 in your 50 time as many studies have shown.

Transferring it into the water usually means some sort of resistance work in the water. I use a parachute and it seems to work for me.

Yeah, getting 20% stronger in lat pulldowns when you start out is very easy to do, and almost all of it is accounted for by better coordination and lift-specific strength. It takes much longer than that to build a significant amount of muscle, which is how the automatic transfer of strength happens. It also takes a lot of extra food and a high-protein diet, which is why not everybody has amazing success from lifting.

[jordangregory]

here is one

Competitive swimmers (22 females, 18 males) were tested for arm power using an isokinetic swim bench at varying velocities that covered the range required for swimming. Subjects also performed a series of 25-yard freestyle sprints. The mean power of one maximal pull on the bench at a velocity of 2.66 meters per second was measured while the average swimming time was 1.81. The correlation coefficient between the two was .90.

An added study used four untrained subjects. Power improvements of 19% and sprint swimming improvements of 4% were demonstrated. This suggests that sprint swimmers could improve performance by increasing arm power.

It should be noted that this study focused on 25 yards of swimming, an event that is not in the competitive schedule. Other studies by these same authors show that the relationship of strength to swimming diminishes rapidly as the distance increases.

Do you have a reference for that. i would love to look it up

[jordangregory]

Wow, I am really enjoying this post. Lots of good stuff. Just a few comments about the research studies presented (by the way, thank you so much for all of those ehoch)
One article talked about 14 weeks of lifting with reps from 8-12 for three sets, 3x/wk during the competitive season. That is a lot of training, perhaps overtraining. Also, doing the same lifts for 14 weeks really makes someone stale. I know when I was swimming a lot of yards during the competitive season, I did not get stronger.
A good strength training program would start with lifting 8-12 reps for the first 4-6 weeks followed by 4-6 weeks of 4-6 reps followed by 4-6 weeks of dynamic stuff (plyometrics, medicine ball stuff, resistance in the water) at high velocities to take the extra muscle and strength and make it functional

[The Fortress]

If it was that easy, more swimmers would have better results with strength training. Strength training is VERY specific. Just because you get 20% stronger in lat pulldowns, does not mean you are going to drop 2/10 in your 50 time as many studies have shown.

Transferring it into the water usually means some sort of resistance work in the water. I use a parachute and it seems to work for me.

I dunno. Lifting seems to make me somewhat faster. :dunno:

What kind of "resistance" work can you do in the water aside from parachutes? Are you speaking of paddles, etc.?

There is a lot of conflicting evidence, opinions on heavy (Smith, Jazz) vs. light lifting (Dara), lifting for overall strength vs. swim specific lifting ...

That's an interesting 12 week plan, Greg.

[Jazz Hands]

Fort, there is a lot of conflicting evidence. I like to think of weight training as a form of cheating, and that guides how I do it. Anabolic steroids improve swimming performance by increasing muscle mass, most of us would agree. There's a great knowledge base about building muscle mass, with or without drugs, in bodybuilding. So at that point I ignore whatever swimmers think about strength training (it must be explosive, it must mimic swimming motions, it can't be too heavy, etc.) and pay attention to what the muscle experts think.

I'm faster than I would be if I thought of my weight training as just another thing that swimmers must do. It's outside the regular program. It's doping.

[ehoch]

Anabolic steroids improve swimming performance by increasing muscle mass, most of us would agree.

Jazz -- that is not quite the case. There are steroids for muscle growth, but for swimmers that is not the key -- I know the East Germans used steroids to speed up recovery. They were able to pound away almost each and every day. The guys were no bigger than anybody else and later on, even the women were not that much different than the other countries. Recovery not muscle mass.

[TeamTermin]

USA Swimmings 2000 Olympic Trials Project

Link to the study http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=233&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en-US

Under Implications – Performance implications vs. time spent doing dryland for distance swimmers and sprinters are described. Numbers 2, 3, and 4



We took a multidisciplinary approach to identifying characteristics and skills of Olympic Trials qualifiers by assessing psychological, biomechanical, training, and anthropometric characteristics. While the variables we measured do not provide a complete picture of successful swimmers, it is a step towards understanding characteristics related to success. The specific characteristics we assessed included:
Background information: gender, age, experience in swimming, performance history, training history
Psychology: sport motivation; goal orientation; social support, mental preparation
Anthropometrics: limb lengths and girths, height and sitting height, weight, and vertical jump
Race Analysis: swimming velocity, stroke rate, distance per stroke. Let’s look at the process we took in assessing our Olympic Trials Qualifiers:
In mid-April, 500 athletes were randomly selected from the USA Swimming database of athletes who had qualified for Olympic Trials.
The 500 selected athletes were sent a letter soliciting their participation and a packet of forms to complete. The personal coach of each athlete was also sent a letter explaining the project and asking him/her to remind the athlete to complete the forms.
Follow-up postcards were sent to the athletes approximately three weeks after the initial mailing.
Because some athletes were unable to take anthropometric measures, the USA Swimming sport science staff set up a testing site at the Olympic Trials in Indianapolis. Athletes who fell into this category were sent letters reminding them to stop by the testing room to complete the measures.
All data was entered into an Excel database for statistical analyses.Of the 500 randomly selected athletes, one hundred and forty-four agreed to participate in the project by returning the packet of forms (representing a 29% return rate).

Implications

Based on background information there are following conclusions of relevance for coaches and athletes.
The average age started swimming is 6.5 year for females and males. There are non-significant differences between swim strokes for females as well for males. The average age started swimming round year has small differences between events. Male distance swimmers have a statistically lower starting age when compared to sprinters. It shows that sprinters can begin their long-term training later than distance swimmers.
Sprinters and distance swimmers have similar average weekly dryland hours and number of workouts per week. But distance swimmers have significantly higher weekly swimming workload volume and number of hours spent swimming than sprinters. It means that distance swimmers swim higher workload volume in workouts than sprinters, as expected. Females and males Olympic Trial qualifiers have similar swimming and dryland workload volume. There are no significant differences in workload parameters between females and males. But male freestyle sprinters have significantly higher dryland workload volume than female freestyle sprinters.
Female sprinters as well as male sprinters and distance swimmers have tendency to increase dryland workload volume with age. But it doesn’t seem to have an influence on performance progression since there is a negative relationship between improvement and dryland hours per week for sprinters as well as distance swimmers. Therefore athletes should increase dryland workload carefully with age, especially distance swimmers. Coaches and athletes should make a decision about increase of dryland workload based on evaluation of relation between dryland workload and performance progression. In some cases, higher strength on dryland can lead to the reduction of performance because of higher drag in water. Thus, this data suggests that sprinters should work not only on dryland but also on transition from dryland to the water (swimming with resistance, surgical tubing, paddles etc.), which is especially important for the older swimmers.
As data show the later swimmers started long-term training (age started swimming and age started swimming year round) the more they tend to work on dryland. However, it seems that dryland workload volume isn’t related to performance improvement for distance swimmers as well as for sprinters. Therefore, swimmers should pay more attention to the swimming workload instead of dryland workload.
There was a significant relationship between improvement and the age the athlete started swimming year round. This data suggests that the later swimmer begins long-term training the greater we find the rate in performance progression to be.
Last year improvement has no relation with average of weekly swimming yardage for sprinters. It suggests that sprinters should pay more attention to quality of work instead of quantity. For distance swimmers, especially females, last year improvement has positive relation with average of weekly swimming yardage. Therefore, based on the distance swimmers’ data from this study, the greater workload volume the higher improvement in performance.
The age started swimming and round year swimming has negative relationship with weekly yardage in sprinters, while these parameters have positive relationship in distance swimmers. Hence, if sprinters started to swim earlier they tend to adapt to the higher workload volume and need to swim more for higher performance. If distance swimmers started to swim earlier they tend to swim lower workload volume.Respectfully submitted - Budd

[LindsayNB]

That's an interesting study and interesting results!

The first question that this study raises in my mind is whether all dryland is the same? Can lifting weights and running all be lumped together under dryland when correlating dryland and performance?

[jordangregory]

That is a very good point about dryland. I would love to see a study that looked at the optimum about of "dryland", specifically weight lifting.

[jordangregory]

Jazz -- that is not quite the case. There are steroids for muscle growth, but for swimmers that is not the key -- I know the East Germans used steroids to speed up recovery. They were able to pound away almost each and every day. The guys were no bigger than anybody else and later on, even the women were not that much different than the other countries. Recovery not muscle mass.

I totally agree that steroids help athletes recover faster, but that is due to their ability to maintain muscle mass in the face of huge amounts of training. Those taking steroids are in an anabolic state more of the time than your average Joe. Therefore, steroids allow swimmers to retain more of the muscle they gain in the offseason while swimming a ridiculous amount of yards during the in season part of training.

[jordangregory]

http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=291&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en