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hofffam
July 17th, 2008, 10:54 PM
Everyone has heard by now that another TDF rider tested positive today. He was two-stage winner this year and dominant in the Pyrenees. He tested positive for a new EPO-type of drug - so new that it has only been available at the beginning of the year.

The doping labs said they are working with pharma companies to get an early look at drugs that might be used by athletes. This drug, Micera, is a more convenient form of EPO. The labs said they had the molecule some time ago to develop a test.

I bet some riders are nervous now thinking they could get away with this drug.

This is good news.....

elise526
July 17th, 2008, 11:20 PM
It's all so sad. Despite my love for cycling, I can't watch the Tour anymore because of things like this. In 2006, my son, seven at the time, and I watched the Tour. It was so hard to explain to him what happened to his hero, Floyd Landis. In 2007, it was Team Astana that broke our hearts. We adopted our son from Kazakhstan in 2000, so he was thrilled to see a team from his home country in the Tour. Once again, I had to break some hard news to him and it was not fun. I didn't want to have to do it again, so I haven't been following it this year.

Who has the yellow jersey now?

hofffam
July 18th, 2008, 09:50 AM
It's all so sad. Despite my love for cycling, I can't watch the Tour anymore because of things like this. In 2006, my son, seven at the time, and I watched the Tour. It was so hard to explain to him what happened to his hero, Floyd Landis. In 2007, it was Team Astana that broke our hearts. We adopted our son from Kazakhstan in 2000, so he was thrilled to see a team from his home country in the Tour. Once again, I had to break some hard news to him and it was not fun. I didn't want to have to do it again, so I haven't been following it this year.

Who has the yellow jersey now?

Cadel Evans (Australian) has the yellow now. Cadel finished 2nd last year behind Alberto Contador. An American, Christian Vande Velde, is in 3rd. VandeVelde rides for the Garmin-Chipotle team, which on its own has taken a very public no-drugs stance. Garmin-Chipotle does its own drug testing above and beyond what the official bodies do. George Hincapie's team, Columbia, has taken a similar position.

I was NOT following the TDF this year until the Ricco test. Now I want to track how the Garmin-Chipotle boys do.

elise526
July 18th, 2008, 10:03 AM
I guess as the drugs become more sophisticated, the cost of coming up with tests to detect these drugs will be out the roof. Where is the money going to come from to support the research for these tests?

hofffam
July 18th, 2008, 11:24 AM
I guess as the drugs become more sophisticated, the cost of coming up with tests to detect these drugs will be out the roof. Where is the money going to come from to support the research for these tests?

I suppose the WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency) and other groups collect fees from the different sports that use their technology. WADA is a non-profit group. Yes it will cost a fair amount of money - but if the drug companies assist perhaps it won't be crazy expensive. The integrity of these sports is at risk so I'd say the investment is justified completely.

thewookiee
July 18th, 2008, 11:37 AM
No matter how much they improve drug testing, people will find away to improve the drugs.

As long as there is some sort of possible reward for athletic performance, cheaters will find away to get better drugs.

I don't think wada,ioc, or any other group can come up with an ulimate penalty to detour cheaters, because someone will always be willing to take the risk for the reward.

elise526
July 18th, 2008, 11:38 AM
All of this is such a tragedy. It will become a vicious cycle. Hopefully the tests will not become costly.

To get to the elite level one will now have to be able to afford expensive equipment (Like the new suit!) and these fees that you mention will ultimately fall on the athlete. People who are not independently wealthy will have to get sponsors or find some other way to get the money. How does one go about getting sponsors or more money? Usually by winning big. The desire to win big may drive folks to get the upper edge and thus seek out PEDs.

Instead of a simple competition between naturally gifted athletes it may simply become a competition between folks with the most means and "shady connections"!

Maybe the penalties for getting caught need to be more severe. I'm not sure that would curb it though.

hofffam
July 18th, 2008, 11:53 AM
It already is a vicious cycle. It has been going on in sports for decades. But the good news is that the investment in testing is strong and growing.

I think there will always be cheaters in sports. I happen to believe it will always be a small minority of people - because if it became too common the testers would know and detection would be easier. I think it is also difficult to keep some things secret for long periods of time.

The test that caught Ricco is interesting because they had a test already for a drug that has only been available this year. I have to believe there are other cyclists out there who are sleeping badly right now because they thought "no way they have test for this new EPO already" and they were wrong....

Ricco's team sponsor has already said they are likely to abandon cycling. When sponsors leave - the sport is at risk.

thewookiee
July 18th, 2008, 11:56 AM
As drug testing equipment becomes better, maybe they will go back to test armstrong's samples to see what he used all those years.

swimshark
July 18th, 2008, 03:46 PM
Dan, here's one for you...

Martin on my left, Tyler on my right. The argyle guys are my team.

Iwannafly
July 18th, 2008, 04:23 PM
As drug testing equipment becomes better, maybe they will go back to test armstrong's samples to see what he used all those years.

What if he didn't use ANYTHING for all those years?

Iwannafly
July 18th, 2008, 04:24 PM
Dan, here's one for you...

Martin on my left, Tyler on my right. The argyle guys are my team.
I'm envious Alison. I saw your picture on Facebook and thought it was awfully cool that you got to meet some Slipstream guys. I have been promised an argyle jersey for Christmas!

hofffam
July 18th, 2008, 04:51 PM
Cool. From the team's website:


Every rider is tested every 14 days. That’s over 600 annual reminders to the world that Slipstream stands behind its mission of clean sport.

The Agency for Cycling Ethics (ACE) independently administers the program. ACE tests Slipstream riders 20 times more often than is required by the Union Cycliste International (UCI), pro cycling’s governing body. True to its dedication to total transparency, Slipstream provides access to the riders testing results to approved 3rd parties.

The ground-breaking testing program breaks away from trying to play catch up with the latest drug. By testing attributes unique to each rider-blood composition and hormone levels-the program establishes baseline biological markers for each rider. Once established, any variance from this baseline can be immediately identified without needing to detect a specific banned substance.



They "publish" the results on the webpage to people with press credentials. Very impressive.

KeithM
July 18th, 2008, 05:39 PM
What if he didn't use ANYTHING for all those years?
He used. He could not be competitive during those years without doing so.

Former teammates have confessed that U.S. Postal doped. His former teammates have tested positive. All of his major rivals, have either tested positive or have strong links to doping. His coaches and team leaders over the years were also linked to rampant drug use. There is a mountain of substantial and compelling evidence that Lance was on the PED's. Just like everyone else. Surprise.

Iwannafly
July 18th, 2008, 05:44 PM
He used. He could not be competitive during those years without doing so.

Former teammates have confessed that U.S. Postal doped. His former teammates have tested positive. All of his major rivals, have either tested positive or have strong links to doping. His coaches and team leaders over the years were also linked to rampant drug use. There is a mountain of substantial and compelling evidence that Lance was on the PED's. Just like everyone else. Surprise.

I have not seen any confessions by former Postal teammates that there was systematic doping on that team. Just because some of his former teammates have been caught does not make the man guilty. The whole thread about whether or not Dara Torres was cheating was based on supposed questioning. My complaint with most of the 'questioners' was that they were no longer questioning, but they were instead accusing. And I would strongly disagree that there is a mountain of evidence against Armstrong.

tjburk
July 18th, 2008, 05:56 PM
He used. He could not be competitive during those years without doing so.

Former teammates have confessed that U.S. Postal doped. His former teammates have tested positive. All of his major rivals, have either tested positive or have strong links to doping. His coaches and team leaders over the years were also linked to rampant drug use. There is a mountain of substantial and compelling evidence that Lance was on the PED's. Just like everyone else. Surprise.

Show us some of these stories...

elise526
July 18th, 2008, 05:56 PM
I have not seen any confessions by former Postal teammates that there was systematic doping on that team. Just because some of his former teammates have been caught does not make the man guilty. The whole thread about whether or not Dara Torres was cheating was based on supposed questioning. My complaint with most of the 'questioners' was that they were no longer questioning, but they were instead accusing. And I would strongly disagree that there is a mountain of evidence against Armstrong.


Agreed! Watch out Keith or else you will get another Dara-type thread going!

KeithM
July 18th, 2008, 07:02 PM
Show us some of these stories...

His personal coach Chris Carmichael has been linked to PEDs, former riders in the early 90s have alleged he doped them.

Lance's involvement with Mr. Ferrari, the EPO kingpin of Cycling.

Frankie Andreu and another (unnamed) teammate at U.S. Postal admitted using EPO with U.S. Postal when Lance became champion.

Witnessed testified that Armstrong admitted to taking EPO and HgH during his hospital stay while being treated for cancer. A former friend, Michael Anderson testified to finding steroids in Lance's home.

Stephen Swart, a former teammate of Lance's with Motorola testified that he, Lance, and the rest of the team took EPO and that it was systematic use on the team.

Tyler Hamilton, Roberto Heras, Manuel Beltran, and Floyd Landis have been busted for doping. All former teammates of Lance.

Various Links:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5508863

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/alexander_wolff/news/2001/07/19/wolff_viewpoint/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2001/jul/30/cycling.cycling1

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10365749

tjburk
July 18th, 2008, 08:07 PM
His personal coach Chris Carmichael has been linked to PEDs, former riders in the early 90s have alleged he doped them.

Lance's involvement with Mr. Ferrari, the EPO kingpin of Cycling.

Frankie Andreu and another (unnamed) teammate at U.S. Postal admitted using EPO with U.S. Postal when Lance became champion.

Witnessed testified that Armstrong admitted to taking EPO and HgH during his hospital stay while being treated for cancer. A former friend, Michael Anderson testified to finding steroids in Lance's home.

Stephen Swart, a former teammate of Lance's with Motorola testified that he, Lance, and the rest of the team took EPO and that it was systematic use on the team.

Tyler Hamilton, Roberto Heras, Manuel Beltran, and Floyd Landis have been busted for doping. All former teammates of Lance.

Various Links:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5508863

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/alexander_wolff/news/2001/07/19/wolff_viewpoint/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2001/jul/30/cycling.cycling1

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10365749

One of the things I find puzzling is how Greg Lemonde says he was taping all of his phone calls at the time....but mysteriously this conversation with the Oakley person was not.......most everything else sounds like hearsay....yes it does shed some shady light on the whole thing......

But you're telling me that the 7 time Tour winner is just being given a pass? I find that hard to believe....that would be a journalists wet dream to put all of this together and prove it to be true.....a lot of this sounds like sour grapes from a lot of those people.

Paul Smith
July 18th, 2008, 08:23 PM
Jim posted the link below in another thread which was almost lost (by the way Jim, sorry for the big ass comment on the other thread):

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/710243.html

With the testers having come up with something to detect this mutant form of EPO I'm hoping a few people get a clue...so do you think the rest of Ricco's team pulled out onlly to show support or for fear of further test failures?

About Lance...uuuggghhh...I watched almost all of his last 3 tours...stunned at the power/grace and beauty of this guys riding...and as has been my problem since the East Germans...wondering. We'll never know and just as with Dara innocent until proven guilty.

The Fortress
July 18th, 2008, 08:45 PM
His personal coach Chris Carmichael has been linked to PEDs, former riders in the early 90s have alleged he doped them.

Lance's involvement with Mr. Ferrari, the EPO kingpin of Cycling.

Frankie Andreu and another (unnamed) teammate at U.S. Postal admitted using EPO with U.S. Postal when Lance became champion.

Witnessed testified that Armstrong admitted to taking EPO and HgH during his hospital stay while being treated for cancer. A former friend, Michael Anderson testified to finding steroids in Lance's home.

Stephen Swart, a former teammate of Lance's with Motorola testified that he, Lance, and the rest of the team took EPO and that it was systematic use on the team.

Tyler Hamilton, Roberto Heras, Manuel Beltran, and Floyd Landis have been busted for doping. All former teammates of Lance.

Various Links:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis/instantmessage.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5508863

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/alexander_wolff/news/2001/07/19/wolff_viewpoint/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2001/jul/30/cycling.cycling1

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10365749

Uuugggghhhh from me too. That's just nasty. Somehow I don't think Lance is going to get a free pass ... But why does a control freak announce his drug use in public?

As for the Israeli swimmer, I really hated this dimwit quote: "If you test positive for something, many people aren’t interested in your truth. They’re only interested in the positive drug test.” I'm actually not very interested in his "truth."

tjburk
July 18th, 2008, 08:46 PM
Jim posted the link below in another thread which was almost lost (by the way Jim, sorry for the big ass comment on the other thread):

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/710243.html

With the testers having come up with something to detect this mutant form of EPO I'm hoping a few people get a clue...so do you think the rest of Ricco's team pulled out onlly to show support or for fear of further test failures?

About Lance...uuuggghhh...I watched almost all of his last 3 tours...stunned at the power/grace and beauty of this guys riding...and as has been my problem since the East Germans...wondering. We'll never know and just as with Dara innocent until proven guilty.

I think they pulled out in fear........

Yeah, Lance always made me wonder......but I think a lot of his newness did come from his cancer treatments.....nothing like being able to use all of the stuff you aren't supposed to.....still....would never want to go through that myself........

swimshark
July 19th, 2008, 06:54 AM
I think Rico's team pulled out so that they could be invited back again next year. Look what happened to Astana this year. New team, new manager but because of last year's dopers, they weren't invited this year. That sucks for Levi, who is instead doing a Tour around Oregon (which I was there to watch).

Aa for Lance, yes, he took some drugs. But... some are legal for cancer recovery. As one who has been through a lot of surgeries myself (none cancer but one was a cancer scare) I have been on drugs that many might consider doping. But they were all for medical reasons, just like some if not all of Lance's.

Dana, meeting those Slipstream guys was... well.. I was speechless. My dad volunteers for the Tour of Cali and the Tour de Georgia so he's met a lot of these guys but I was a newbie. Tyler Farrar, after the Georgia Tour went to the hospital room of a kid who has cancer and presented him the jersey from the Tour. How cool is that. The kid is a cycling fan and his dad is big into tris and Tyler heard about this kid and made a trip to see him. My dad knows the kid which is how I know about the visit. I love the Garmin guys and I think with Columbia, they can help put cycling back where it belongs - drug free.

Dana, as being one of the fan's of the month for Garmin, I got argyle socks, baseball type cards with their stats and pictures and.... best of all.... new, not available to the public yet, Garmin/Chipotle hat. I love that hat and can't wait to get them the sign it next June when they come here for the race. Did you go to any of the Tour of Penn to see them?

The Fortress
July 19th, 2008, 09:22 PM
Yeah, Lance always made me wonder......but I think a lot of his newness did come from his cancer treatments.....nothing like being able to use all of the stuff you aren't supposed to.....still....would never want to go through that myself........

After reflecting on this, I've decided I don't really care if Lance was doping. Pro cyclists seem to universally dope. So the playing field was level and he still won the tour seven times. So of all the cyclist-dopers, he was still the best cyclist.

He must have lost his medical exemption to use the drugs once his cancer treatment was done?

elise526
July 19th, 2008, 09:51 PM
[quote=The Fortress;142034]After reflecting on this, I've decided I don't really care if Lance was doping. Pro cyclists seem to universally dope. So the playing field was level and he still won the tour seven times. So of all the cyclist-dopers, he was still the best cyclist.


I'm with you on this one. In case anybody has not read it yet, read Lance's autobiography, It's Not About the Bike: My Journey Back to Life. I gave this book to a swimming friend who was diagnosed with breast cancer two years ago. She said it was the most inspirational book she has ever read and it has motivated her to train in swimming and compete in masters meets, even while she is battling cancer. The book has given many hope!

Iwannafly
July 20th, 2008, 08:29 PM
I'm with you on this one. In case anybody has not read it yet, read Lance's autobiography, It's Not About the Bike: My Journey Back to Life. I gave this book to a swimming friend who was diagnosed with breast cancer two years ago. She said it was the most inspirational book she has ever read and it has motivated her to train in swimming and compete in masters meets, even while she is battling cancer. The book has given many hope!

I have been fortunate to not suffer any sort of major illnesses or injuries in my life and I still found this book very inspirational. He does say at one point in the book that after surviving cancer, the thought of putting any sort of performance enhancing drug in his body was revolting. I want desperately to believe him and have chosen to ignore the underwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary. Although the evidence against Lance is more than what exists to say that Dara is cheating.