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TRYM_Swimmer
July 22nd, 2008, 01:06 PM
Chew on this one, boys and girls!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/22/sports/olympics/22asthma.html?ref=sports

kazekirei
July 22nd, 2008, 02:40 PM
Wow, I think that's a little ridiculous. I mean, wouldn't it fit that because some athletes have asthma, they are actually at a disadvantage, and the medications would just even it out? :shakeshead:

EllenT
July 22nd, 2008, 10:59 PM
OK, I have to comment here because I have asthma and have encountered difficulty breathing when swimming in the past.

I agree that there could be no kind of benefit from using an inhaler for those that do not have asthma. Asthma is an inflamation in the brochial tubes. If you don't have asthma, and thus no inflamation, using the inhaler would not help at all.

I find that when I use my rescue inhaler, it actually causes me to cough more for a while, to clear out all that gunk in my lungs, and increases my heart rate for about 30 minutes (not to mention it makes me shakey).

Don't all of those things make it harder to swim and not easier??? :dunno:

TRYM_Swimmer
July 23rd, 2008, 08:49 AM
Haven't there been discussions here about age group swimmers being "diagnosed" with asthma and using inhalers to try and get a perceived advantage? I thought there was controversy about that before.

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 24th, 2008, 03:19 AM
This is no knew news. This has been rather well accepted for at least 20 years in the medical world. I have moderate/severe asthma. I have huge lungs that don't always work so well. There are also studies that show that nonasthmatics receive no extra benefits from taking most drugs asthmatics use.

A few years ago there was a great study published in one of the English medical magazines that details about a study that showed that asthmatic swimmers had specific changes to their lung structure that asthmatics who did not swim didn't have. Nonasthmatics who swim don't have nor do nonashtmatics who swim have these special structures. If i remember correctly it discussed how the shape of the cells of the smallest airways change their shape and th eair bags in the lung change also. This then causes the lung shape to change, especially the right lung and the lowest lobe.

LindsayNB
July 24th, 2008, 12:06 PM
Perhaps people have confused asthma drugs like clenbuterol with the drugs in inhalers?

Or perhaps some inhalers/asthma medications contain stimulants or other drugs that have effects beyond dilation while others do not? Are all inhalers the same?

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 25th, 2008, 12:42 PM
Perhaps people have confused asthma drugs like clenbuterol with the drugs in inhalers?

Or perhaps some inhalers/asthma medications contain stimulants or other drugs that have effects beyond dilation while others do not? Are all inhalers the same?

Clenbuterol is almost impossible to get in the USA. Dilators can't effect lungs that are normal. There is nothing in the drug that will help other period. Really think that it is jealousy of nonasthmatics who think we asthmatics get something special. Overall I have had many people tell me that it isn't fair that i get to take drugs for my lungs/. I always tell them that I don't think it is fair that they don't get to be rushed to an Er and almost die 2 to 3 times a year and spend tons of money on some of the most expensive drugs. Oddly it is only swimmers who say anything to me. Runners don't, rowers don't, soccer players don't.

TheGoodSmith
July 25th, 2008, 01:10 PM
Lindsay hit the nail on the head. The stimulant effect is what I feel after I take my inhaler.

Personally, I think it is a slight advantage to use an inhaler prior to a race.


John Smith

Paul Smith
July 25th, 2008, 02:49 PM
Percentage of general population diagnosed with breathing disorders that require the us of an inhaler; 2-3%

Percentage of Olympic athletes diagnosed with same ailment and given the Ok to use an otherwise banned substance; 60%

aquageek
July 25th, 2008, 03:42 PM
Percentage of Olympic athletes diagnosed with same ailment and given the Ok to use an otherwise banned substance; 60%

Percentage of people named Smith who pull stats from their arses - 100%.

Paul Smith
July 25th, 2008, 05:50 PM
Percentage of people named Smith who pull stats from their arses - 100%.

You must be thinking of one of the other two Smiths on this forum....

I've seen at least 3 articles with slight variations on those stats, here's just one:

http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/asthma.html

I also just saw another in either USA Today or the Arizona Republic after the Harding fiasco.

Face it, there are people who genuinely need this medication...and I'll assume that possibly a larger percentage of the population who are athletes suffer from it...and I'll even go so far as to say that at the highest elite level of sport those athletes suffer an even higher percentage per capita then either of the other groups listed....but I will also say the medication is a well known PED and that if there is a way to use it legally by getting an exemption than there are a fair amount who are "cheating" as well.

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 26th, 2008, 02:51 AM
You must be thinking of one of the other two Smiths on this forum....

I've seen at least 3 articles with slight variations on those stats, here's just one:

http://www.pullbuoy.co.uk/asthma.html

I also just saw another in either USA Today or the Arizona Republic after the Harding fiasco.

Face it, there are people who genuinely need this medication...and I'll assume that possibly a larger percentage of the population who are athletes suffer from it...and I'll even go so far as to say that at the highest elite level of sport those athletes suffer an even higher percentage per capita then either of the other groups listed....but I will also say the medication is a well known PED and that if there is a way to use it legally by getting an exemption than there are a fair amount who are "cheating" as well.

One reason why so many asthmatics swim is because we are told it is good for our lungs. It might be. Inhalers are designed to calm tightened lung airways. If the airway isn't tight the inhaler isn't going to do much. There are far more over the counter products being used that change once the structure once they enter the body to help develop muscles that are far more abused. The little effect a nonasthmatic is going to get from a few puffs from an inhaler is nothing compared to the the benefits received with muscle growth using many over the counter product. This argument is really off of the wall. You are helping to promote a myth that at its base is hateful. The hatefulness is so nicely hidden because people argue that there just might be. the argument must not be listened to because it is on very silly ground.

I get so mad listening to so many blah blah blah about the only way to really promote improvement is through practice, practice, practice. Then to hear people Blah blah blah about asthma drugs helping people. Stop this absolute silliness. If you are feeling any 'buzz" after you take a puff of an inhaler, you are feeling your heart beat irregularly. How is that to help your swimming? In reality, your heart is no longer pumping blood effectively nor efficiently.

Paul Smith
July 26th, 2008, 09:25 AM
One reason why so many asthmatics swim is because we are told it is good for our lungs. It might be. Inhalers are designed to calm tightened lung airways. If the airway isn't tight the inhaler isn't going to do much. There are far more over the counter products being used that change once the structure once they enter the body to help develop muscles that are far more abused. The little effect a nonasthmatic is going to get from a few puffs from an inhaler is nothing compared to the the benefits received with muscle growth using many over the counter product. This argument is really off of the wall. You are helping to promote a myth that at its base is hateful. The hatefulness is so nicely hidden because people argue that there just might be. the argument must not be listened to because it is on very silly ground.

I get so mad listening to so many blah blah blah about the only way to really promote improvement is through practice, practice, practice. Then to hear people Blah blah blah about asthma drugs helping people. Stop this absolute silliness. If you are feeling any 'buzz" after you take a puff of an inhaler, you are feeling your heart beat irregularly. How is that to help your swimming? In reality, your heart is no longer pumping blood effectively nor efficiently.

Damn! I thought I was being subtle enough to not get "called out" but Craig caught it. So let me be perfectly clear.

I HATE ALL WIMPY, WHINY, WEAK, CHEATING, LOSER ASTHMATICS because they can legally use banned substances and beat me in the 50 free at a masters meet.

Your a bright guy Craig...thanks for spotting this and holding me accountable for being so HATEFUL.

swimcat
July 26th, 2008, 09:32 AM
granted, i am no where near your level of swimming. i was on prednisone, advair, albuterol, singulair (gee, anything else) oh yeah, i got a cortisone shot after my 400 im at Y nats. point being, it didn't make me fly through the water, with all those meds.
maybe because i have a legit condition. i also swam the meet with a slap tear and a tear in the superspinatus. (didn't know about the tears yet).
so add in nsaids too.

Paul Smith
July 26th, 2008, 10:52 AM
granted, i am no where near your level of swimming. i was on prednisone, advair, albuterol, singulair (gee, anything else) oh yeah, i got a cortisone shot after my 400 im at Y nats. point being, it didn't make me fly through the water, with all those meds.
maybe because i have a legit condition. i also swam the meet with a slap tear and a tear in the superspinatus. (didn't know about the tears yet).
so add in nsaids too.

Cat...just be glad your not a race horse, with all those ailments they'd take you behind the barn and shoot you!! :)

Oh wait...I'm sending a hidden/veiled message of hate in that post so let me be clear:

YOUR A WEAK/BROKEN DOWN DRUGGIE AND I WANT TO SHOOT YOU AND ANYONE ELSE LIKE YOU...ESPECIALLY JOHN SMITH!

swimcat
July 26th, 2008, 06:05 PM
[quote=Paul Smith;143303]Cat...just be glad your not a race horse, with all those ailments they'd take you behind the barn and shoot you!! :)

Oh wait...I'm sending a hidden/veiled message of hate in that post so let me be clear:

YOUR A WEAK/BROKEN DOWN DRUGGIE AND I WANT TO SHOOT YOU AND ANONE ELSE LIKE YOU...ESPECIALLY JOHN SMITH![/

hisssssssssssss. first, at the moment, i am just on singulair, albuterol and advair. for the record,.. when i snow ski, i rarely use an inhaler. depends on the altitude. when i ocean swim also it is different. in my case, it is a case of the chlorination/mold factor and indoor pools. i swam in outdoor pools until i moved to ga. ok.
you may be faster than me in the pool but anytime you want to take me on the slopes in a slalom. yea come on.
ps. to further incense you , i have my own entourage like dara. my own masseuse and personal strength trainer.
:D

Paul Smith
July 26th, 2008, 06:25 PM
[quote=Paul Smith;143303]Cat...just be glad your not a race horse, with all those ailments they'd take you behind the barn and shoot you!! :)

Oh wait...I'm sending a hidden/veiled message of hate in that post so let me be clear:

YOUR A WEAK/BROKEN DOWN DRUGGIE AND I WANT TO SHOOT YOU AND ANONE ELSE LIKE YOU...ESPECIALLY JOHN SMITH![/

hisssssssssssss. first, at the moment, i am just on singulair, albuterol and advair. for the record,.. when i snow ski, i rarely use an inhaler. depends on the altitude. when i ocean swim also it is different. in my case, it is a case of the chlorination/mold factor and indoor pools. i swam in outdoor pools until i moved to ga. ok.
you may be faster than me in the pool but anytime you want to take me on the slopes in a slalom. yea come on.
ps. to further incense you , i have my own entourage like dara. my own masseuse and personal strength trainer.
:D

Can I come live with you and share your masseuse, trainer and drugs?

Careful what you ask for on that skiing bet...lived 22 years in Vail before I got back to my roots in the swimming gig!

Paul Smith
July 26th, 2008, 10:09 PM
More on the abuse of inhalers:

http://www.newsobserver.com/1577/story/1153999.html

from the article"
"Clenbuterol is a bronchodilator that creates an increase in aerobic capacity, oxygen transporation, blood pressure and Central Nervous System stimulation. It is frequently used on racehorses.

Clenbuterol is also commonly prescribed as a decongestant and bronchodilator for people with with breathing disorders like asthma.

Athletes with asthma can use approved decongestants and bronchodilators after receiving therapeutic use exemptions or TUEs from USADA. In recent years it has become common for Olympic-caliber athletes to receive TUEs and has prompted criticism from longtime observers of the anti-doping movement."

Haters!

craiglll@yahoo.com
July 27th, 2008, 10:53 AM
First Clenbuterol is not commonly prescribed. It does a lot of bad things to the airbags if used for any time to be effective. That's why other drugs have been created. Generally people who use Clenbuterol are knowingly trying to cheat. It is neither a good asthma drug nor a good decongestant. There are several drugs more efficient and less damaging.

Second At least 30 % of asthmatics are allergic to Singulair. It is hell to be allergic to the best drug created for the treatment of allergies and asthma. I get this really intense red rash all over my body. There have been deaths but not enough to get it off of the market. Once you know you are allergic, stop taking it. There is supposed to be a whole new group of luekotrines(sp) coming out that don't have one of the components of Singulair that are less likely to cause a reaction. They are designed fro asthmatics who naturally have very high eosinophile(sp) counts.

While some will always try to cheat, there are several studies that show the overall ineffectiveness of using asthma bronciodialators(sp) if you are not asthmatic. I wish the weird and, as I have said before, silly comments would stop. If you had to rush to an ER at least once a month at 3:00am unable to breath, bright red with a rash, your blood pressure either 67/47 or 289/225 an unable to hear because you just blew out your eardrum, you wouldn't dare be so persistent. Cheaters must be stooped but just because some one uses asthma drugs, they are not cheating.

CreamPuff
July 27th, 2008, 11:23 AM
I get so mad listening to so many blah blah blah about the only way to really promote improvement is through practice, practice, practice.

You've come to the right board. Many people here subscribe to "practice as little as possible."

I'm glad I don't have asthma. I feel bad for those who really have it. My brother does and it was awful for him especially when he was young. It was life threatening for him on numerous occasions.

Paul Smith
July 27th, 2008, 11:07 PM
This thread/discussion in my mind never had anything to do with asthmatics...this is a discussion about people who are abusing a banned substance. How many are doing it is debatable...but the fact is we just lost the #1 female breaststroker/#2 spring freestyler on our Olympic team because she was using clen....and the stats about 60% of Olympic athletes getting waivers to use inhalers when the comparable population of non-athletes is far less is disturbing as well.

Betsy
July 29th, 2008, 11:48 PM
I don't see how using drugs for asthma can help if you don't suffer from asthma. I am asthmatic, but it is controlled by oral medication. I no longer use albuterol when I exercise. Every year I have a pulmonary function test to see how my lungs are working. In the test, you see how long you can blow into a tube. My doctor has a computer screen with candles and you try to blow them all out. I get very competitive. I do the test twice, then use albuterol and wait 10 or 15 minutes and repeat the test. I have no improvement after using the inhaler because my asthma is under control. That makes me wonder how someone without asthma would benefit from using albuterol.

Blackbeard's Peg
July 30th, 2008, 10:27 AM
Percentage of general population diagnosed with breathing disorders that require the us of an inhaler; 2-3%
Percentage of Olympic athletes diagnosed with same ailment and given the Ok to use an otherwise banned substance; 60%

While a telling statistic, I think it is skewed a bit to the detriment of anyone labeled an Olympic, or Olympic-caliber athlete. Someone at that level is probably going to have, at some point in their training, all kinds of medical and performance-related tests run on them. It would be easy, say, during a VO2max test, to look at the results and think, "hmm, oxygen intake low. breathing hard. breathing out weak. lets test for asthma," and then "hmm, he/she has *some* symptoms. let's diagnose with mild asthma and get an inhaler."

Would that person have been put on the inhaler if they weren't at a high level to start with? I'd argue they would not. I'd also argue that some athletes (and/or coaches) do stretch the symptoms and search out this diagnosis.

scyfreestyler
July 30th, 2008, 10:35 AM
While a telling statistic, I think it is skewed a bit to the detriment of anyone labeled an Olympic, or Olympic-caliber athlete. Someone at that level is probably going to have, at some point in their training, all kinds of medical and performance-related tests run on them. It would be easy, say, during a VO2max test, to look at the results and think, "hmm, oxygen intake low. breathing hard. breathing out weak. lets test for asthma," and then "hmm, he/she has *some* symptoms. let's diagnose with mild asthma and get an inhaler."

Would that person have been put on the inhaler if they weren't at a high level to start with? I'd argue they would not. I'd also argue that some athletes (and/or coaches) do stretch the symptoms and search out this diagnosis.

That was my spin on it while talking it over with a friend just recently. I don't think it's quite as sinister as it looks.

craiglll@yahoo.com
August 3rd, 2008, 09:34 PM
This is for those of us lucky enough to have asthma. If you have an underbite, you are at a high risk of having sleep apnea(SP). I had an ER adventure last week. So I went to my faithful pulmonologist(SP). he told me about the sleep apnea and set up some tests. He asked me if I had a sleep partner who complained about my snoring. I told him I have no sleep partner. Just then his phone rang and it was his wife. They are Indian. I thought that was really weird. It was almost like she was listening and had a suggestion for me. I have this image in my mind of her sitting with a list of sleep partners waiting to match them up when her husband asks his patients.

I also got another IgE blood test. I know one friend who had something actually indicated from this test. Has anyone else every had allergies indicated from this test. Also has anyone gone to the allergist, Dr. Morris, in La Cross, WI. The ER nurses all tell me to go to him. They drive up with their kids in a huge van every so often because he is supposedly so good. I have had all kinds of allergy tests and all are negative. Yet I produce huge numbers of eosinophils(sp).