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psal137
July 23rd, 2008, 05:03 PM
From what i have heard, from several credible sources, someone on the us women's team tested positive. As of now only the persons family, roommate, and usa swimming know, but im sure it will begin to leak out. Nothing matters though until we get results of the B test.. which could be a few days or even weeks. Not sure when the test was taken, but probably trials. I will try to post more information when I get it, but if anyone could confirm or post what they know, im sure it would be appreciated

FlyQueen
July 23rd, 2008, 06:25 PM
I'd have to imagine they'd expedite the results with the B test since the Olympics are just over 2 weeks away. They certainly don't want whomever it is to dq a relay after the fact or take away from the team ... I am in total and utter shock ... it's supposedly a woman? $20 says I know who most people are thinking it is ...

ehoch
July 23rd, 2008, 06:42 PM
A couple of thoughts -

Why do they wait for the B-sample ? Seems like they usually first announce + throw under the bus and then check the b-sample - see Max Jaben.

If I am not mistaken, the deadline to name the participants in each event is today (think I read that from the German breaststroker) -- if somebody tested positive, will they sacrifice a spot ?

This would be very very very bad news for the US swim team - one is all it takes to tarnish everybody.

The Fortress
July 23rd, 2008, 06:45 PM
I'd have to imagine they'd expedite the results with the B test since the Olympics are just over 2 weeks away. They certainly don't want whomever it is to dq a relay after the fact or take away from the team ... I am in total and utter shock ... it's supposedly a woman? $20 says I know who most people are thinking it is ...

I don't think it's going to be her that tests positive ...

This is bad news, as Hoch notes. :(

CreamPuff
July 23rd, 2008, 07:10 PM
Maybe our tests to catch drug cheats aren't so bad. . .

elise526
July 23rd, 2008, 07:12 PM
If it all turns out to be true, I hope it is an innocent mistake, i.e., somebody forgot to get an exemption or didn't realize the substance was banned. If somebody was taking something like ADHD meds and didn't realize they were banned, that it one thing. It is a whole different story if it is something obvious like HGH or streroids. The latter will cast a dark shadow over the entire team.

quicksilver
July 23rd, 2008, 07:21 PM
$20 says I know who most people are thinking it is ...

Just because Amanda posed for some risque pictures...she still has standards. ;)

But whoever it is...it's sure to be a big story when it comes out.
And if it's the team's elder, forget about it.

Paul Smith
July 23rd, 2008, 07:31 PM
it's a gal

unconfirmed wethere it is a PED or recreational drug.

the17thman
July 23rd, 2008, 08:17 PM
Does anyone have confirmation? Any news leaks yet? How do we know it is a PED?

the17thman
July 23rd, 2008, 08:26 PM
PHOENIX, Arizona, July 23. A coach with knowledge of the situation, but not on the Olympic staff, has confirmed to Swimming World that Jessica Hardy has tested positive for a banned substance. In addition, Swimming World has spoken with athletes on the Olympic team at the training camp who told us that Hardy is no longer at the camp.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/18617.asp?q=Jessica%20Hardy's%20A%20Sample%20Tests %20Positive%20for%20Drugs

Rain Man
July 23rd, 2008, 08:27 PM
According to Swimming World Magazine, it is Jessica Hardy. I won't bother re-hashing the details. Here's the link...

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/18617.asp?q=Jessica%20Hardy's%20A%20Sample%20Tests %20Positive%20for%20Drugs

If this is true, US swimmers will have an undeniable cloud of suspicion over their heads at the Games.

The Fortress
July 23rd, 2008, 08:27 PM
Oh crap, now every break through will be greeted with suspicion ... She had had a great year.

I read that Tara Kirk retired right after the Trials.

FlyQueen
July 23rd, 2008, 08:29 PM
My guess is Soni is swimming the 100 breast and Kara Lynn Joyce gets the 50 - they are the next fastest from trials that are at camp.

aquageek
July 23rd, 2008, 08:38 PM
Very dissapointing that the first USA Olympic athlete dismissed is a swimmer. Maybe she's not the first, I'm not totally sure, but bad nonetheless. We can only hope she is an anomaly.

peeterdeeter
July 23rd, 2008, 08:38 PM
I think it would only be fair for Kirk and Jackson to be given spots on the team. If they haven't trained then we go in with at least one prepared swimmer in each event(Jendrick and Torres), and Kirk and Jackson will do the best they can. If it isn't great, its ok, its not their fault. But they deserve a shot.

gobears
July 23rd, 2008, 08:47 PM
I'm glad she's not still at Cal if this turns out to be PED's. But, you have to wonder if she's been clean in the past and just started this stuff or if she's been doing it all along. And, if so, who else has been? Yikes.

FlyQueen
July 23rd, 2008, 08:52 PM
I'd be surprised if she was kicked out of camp without knowing what happened with the B sample unless she admitted to it ... what would be considered a PED that she could have taken by accident?

aquageek
July 23rd, 2008, 08:53 PM
... what would be considered a PED that she could have taken by accident?

She's having Floyd's playbook of excuses Fed Ex'd to her tonight, stay tuned.

hofffam
July 23rd, 2008, 08:54 PM
I think it would only be fair for Kirk and Jackson to be given spots on the team. If they haven't trained then we go in with at least one prepared swimmer in each event(Jendrick and Torres), and Kirk and Jackson will do the best they can. If it isn't great, its ok, its not their fault. But they deserve a shot.

I have a slightly different view. The USA team deserves the best swimmers available. If Kirk and Jackson are not deemed ready, regardless of their finish at trials, the next best swimmers should swim.

But they have very precise rules for team selection, no matter what I think!

The Fortress
July 23rd, 2008, 08:56 PM
She's having Floyd's playbook of excuses Fed Ex'd to her tonight, stay tuned.

I'm dreading them, after that last "twins in utero" exuse. As I said regarding the Israeli swimmer, I'm skeptical of "their truth."

I don't see how they could keep someone in camp that had tested positive on the A sample. No way. It's gotta be "no tolerance" there, not "innocent until proven guilty."

What's in Advocare?

peeterdeeter
July 23rd, 2008, 08:56 PM
She takes a ton of supplements(Advocare, etc). Could it be an accident? (remember another Trojan...Kicker) Does it matter? She'll still be banned if the 'B' sample is dirty.

Regardless, what a black eye for swimming and the US.

This will likely make the sports page in any number of papers. Not good at all.

KeithM
July 23rd, 2008, 08:58 PM
Now that the swimmer has been made public it'd be nice to know the substance.

gobears
July 23rd, 2008, 09:02 PM
It will be interesting to see how this affects Dara. Will people be more inclined to think she's clean since she's tested all the time and we've now seen someone caught? Or, will people assume many swimmers dope and some are just better than others (a la the Tour de France)?

FlyQueen
July 23rd, 2008, 09:46 PM
I just read both the A & B samples were positive.

Paul Smith
July 23rd, 2008, 09:50 PM
It will be interesting to see how this affects Dara. Will people be more inclined to think she's clean since she's tested all the time and we've now seen someone caught? Or, will people assume many swimmers dope and some are just better than others (a la the Tour de France)?

More importantly watch how the international press deals with this..the US has "called out" other countries for years about drug use...no questions come about our programs.

I'd like to know if any athlete in any sport has visited China in the last 2 years (see the post about gene dopping/stem cell injections).

psal137
July 23rd, 2008, 09:50 PM
article on nbc olympics says a and b sample were positive

http://www.nbcolympics.com/swimming/news/newsid=154936.html#hardy+tests+positive

The Fortress
July 23rd, 2008, 09:54 PM
A comment on the swimming world article said it was clenbuterol: stimulant, increased aerobic capacity, enhanced oxygen transport, weight loss, muscle relaxant, etc. Used by bodybuilders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clenbuterol

pwolf66
July 23rd, 2008, 09:57 PM
This is truely a sad day for US Swimming. What is it about needing to be number 1 that makes people take such chances? They have to KNOW that they have a much better than 50/50 shot of getting caught and if they get caught, they are DONE.

SwimStud
July 23rd, 2008, 09:59 PM
This is truely a sad day for US Swimming. What is it about needing to be number 1 that makes people take such chances? They have to KNOW that they have a much better than 50/50 shot of getting caught and if they get caught, they are DONE.

It's just sad that at 21 a bad decision like this is going to haunt her forever...

pwolf66
July 23rd, 2008, 10:04 PM
That's kinda my point. It is near-impossible for an elite athlete today to not be aware of the consequences. Ben Johnson, Marion Jones, etc absolute pariah's now and completely off the map as far as athletics go, much less regular society. Or serving jail time. I don't get it. I truely do not.

Paul Smith
July 23rd, 2008, 10:04 PM
It's just sad that at 21 a bad decision like this is going to haunt her forever...

IF she cheated screw her...it should ruin her life. A bad decison is turning left when you meant to turn right...not taking drugs to win in sport.

FlyQueen
July 23rd, 2008, 10:04 PM
This is truely a sad day for US Swimming. What is it about needing to be number 1 that makes people take such chances? They have to KNOW that they have a much better than 50/50 shot of getting caught and if they get caught, they are DONE.

I was thinking that too ... she will have this stigma attached to her for the rest of her life. Such a bummer ...

SwimStud
July 23rd, 2008, 10:09 PM
IF she cheated screw her...it should ruin her life. A bad decison is turning left when you meant to turn right...not taking drugs to win in sport.

I know you feel strongly about it Paul I just think it's sad thing for a life to be ruined at 21..it's not like she murdered someone. People make bad decisions in their careers at young ages. Sure she should be done for swimming but you know I would like to see the people that put this stuff into her head that it was OK to be rounded up and prosecuted too.

I made stupid dedcisions too, some of which I got away with. She's going to pay for it, she doesn't need my condemnation to make it a fitting punishment.

pwolf66
July 23rd, 2008, 10:09 PM
Sorry, I have to echo Paul here. Too freaking bad. I have less than 0% pity for anyone who CHOOSES to take banned substances.

The Fortress
July 23rd, 2008, 10:13 PM
IF she cheated screw her...it should ruin her life. A bad decison is turning left when you meant to turn right...not taking drugs to win in sport.

She does have only herself to blame.

But her "life" doesn't have to be over at 21.

SwimStud
July 23rd, 2008, 10:13 PM
Sorry, I have to echo Paul here. Too freaking bad. I have less than 0% pity for anyone who CHOOSES to take banned substances.

I'm not pitying her, I just find it sad that at 21 someone ruins their life.

Paul Smith
July 23rd, 2008, 10:14 PM
I know you feel strongly about it Paul I just think it's sad thing for a life to be ruined at 21..it's not like she murdered someone. People make bad decisions in their careers at young ages. Sure she should be done for swimming but you know I would like to see the people that put this stuff into her head that it was OK to be rounded up and prosecuted too.


IF she is found guilty:

Drag her ass and whomever helped her in this crime off to jail in chains and publish the photo's in every paper and at every swim club in the country. Shame on her and anyone who defends this BS....she's 21, she's an adult and she wanted to win at all costs. She basically said screw you to all of her teammates and everyone in sport who plays by the rules...there goes any chance the 400 medley relay had against the Aussies.

peeterdeeter
July 23rd, 2008, 10:14 PM
Let's not jump on her yet. Wait until we get the whole story. I happen to know a guy who uses clenbuterol legally. He is a bodybuilder, who likes to run without getting too aerobic and building up glycogen. Who knows if it was in a supplement without her knowledge?

SwimStud
July 23rd, 2008, 10:15 PM
She has only herself to blame.

And her "life" doesn't have to be over at 21.

It will be to a point, what will she do now? She could spend he rest of her days in philanthropy, do more good than she would have with a gong around her neck but it will never erase it. John Profumo is a great example of how the public and media never forget.

It's pitchfork and torches time in the USA tonight.

pwolf66
July 23rd, 2008, 10:20 PM
Let's not jump on her yet. Wait until we get the whole story. I happen to know a guy who uses clenbuterol legally. He is a bodybuilder, who likes to run without getting too aerobic and building up glycogen. Who knows if it was in a supplement without her knowledge?

Um, so IF she is taking it, then she should have made that knowledge BEFORE swimming at trials. So regardless of WHY she took it (if she took it of her own free will) she is in violation of USA-S regulations IF she did not disclose that she was taking it. So IF it is determined that she took a banned substance without approval, she is done.

Yeah, sure, we haven't heard the 'it's not my fault' defense in a while. Hey, it MIGHT even be true. I don't have all the facts so all I have is conjecture but right now it doesn't look good. But that is why there are processes in place in USA-S to deal with these issues.

The Fortress
July 23rd, 2008, 10:20 PM
It will be to a point, what will she do now? She could spend he rest of her days in philanthropy, do more good than she would have with a gong around her neck but it will never erase it. John Profumo is a great example of how the public and media never forget.

She could get a job and live her life. Did she even finish college?

Sure, she'll be "haunted" and she has to start over and her swimming is finished. But she KNEW she would be facing if she got caught. She apparently took drugs to gain an advantage, tested positive, and now she's the villain. Calculated risk. She lost, and now she has to pay the price. No sense in excessive hand wringing if she was deliberately cheating.

Clenbuterol, from what I read, can't be legally prescribed in the US?

FlyQueen
July 23rd, 2008, 10:20 PM
I agree and don't ... I really do think it sucks that at 21 she pretty much ruined her life, yet she did do it to herself. It's just always sad when someone makes one bad decision and it haunts them for the rest of their lives.

SwimStud
July 23rd, 2008, 10:21 PM
Um, so IF she is taking it, then she should have made that knowledge BEFORE swimming at trials. So regardless of WHY she took it (if she took it of her own free will) she is in violation of USA-S regulations IF she did not disclose that she was taking it. So IF it is determined that she took a banned substance without approval, she is done.

Yeah, sure, we haven't heard the 'it's not my fault' defense in a while. Hey, it MIGHT even be true. I don't have all the facts so all I have is conjecture but right now it doesn't look good. But that is why there are processes in place in USA-S to deal with these issues.

She's done. Unless she has irrefutable proof of someone doping her unwittingly...even then people don't like the stink...it's over for her.

FlyQueen
July 23rd, 2008, 10:23 PM
I also feel REALLY bad for Kirk, Jackson, and Weir right now ...

pwolf66
July 23rd, 2008, 10:25 PM
Heather, I can agree to a point. But where the heck was her sense of reality IF she did choose to go this route? Um hello? She has been in the sport of swimming for HOW many years? Not to mention in athletics in general? How many examples does there need to be?


Yes, her life isn't completely over. She can still have a long and meaningful life, no question about it but IF she did make that choice, she just effective threw 12+ YEARS of her life in the crapper. We're all swimmers here, we know how much time, effort and sacrifice goes into swimming. And now it's teetering on the edge of <POOF>.

SwimStud
July 23rd, 2008, 10:25 PM
She could get a job and live her life. Did she even finish college? Sure, she'll be haunted. She has to start over. Not unheard of, and it's what she knew she would be facing if she got caught.

Clenbuterol, from what I read, can't be legally prescribed in the US?

She can do all those things but she'll be dealing with the stigma all the way. It will ruin her life no matter what else she manages to achieve.

pwolf66
July 23rd, 2008, 10:27 PM
Clenbuterol, from what I read, can't be legally prescribed in the US?


Not relevant. If a swimmer is on a prescription for any substance on the banned list, they must disclose that prior to competition. WELL prior. It sure looks like, if she was, she sure didn't.

FlyQueen
July 23rd, 2008, 10:27 PM
Heather, I can agree to a point. But where the heck was her sense of reality IF she did choose to go this route? Um hello? She has been in the sport of swimming for HOW many years? Not to mention in athletics in general? How many examples does there need to be?


Yes, her life isn't completely over. She can still have a long and meaningful life, no question about it but IF she did make that choice, she just effective threw 12+ YEARS of her life in the crapper. We're all swimmers here, we know how much time, effort and sacrifice goes into swimming. And now it's teetering on the edge of <POOF>.



I hope she does, but any employer is going to think twice about hiring her, I'm sure Speedo is going to terminate her contract, she hasn't finished school either. I really hope she is able to find happiness and success. It's going to be an uphill battle though.

Glider
July 23rd, 2008, 10:32 PM
This is sad indeed. I just don't want to believe it. Call me naive (lemme have it Smith boys), but I want to hear more details before I can form a solid opinion...


It's just sad that at 21 a bad decision like this is going to haunt her forever...

The Fortress
July 23rd, 2008, 10:38 PM
I hope she does, but any employer is going to think twice about hiring her, I'm sure Speedo is going to terminate her contract, she hasn't finished school either. I really hope she is able to find happiness and success. It's going to be an uphill battle though.

How can she whine about the consequences if she intentionally cheated though? Maybe would be drug cheaters should preemptively see psychologists who tell them over and over that their life will be ruined irrevocably if they go down that path, although often deterrence is of little use (which is why people break the law). She has no recourse but to do an "Andy Petite" and throw herself on the mercy of the court, admit she was wrong and beg for forgiveness.

I find it a lot more sad when something out of the blue or unexpected "ruins" the life of a good and honest person or their family.

USMSarah
July 23rd, 2008, 10:42 PM
This makes me ill to hear this... so many people are affected when athletes cheat... if she knowingly cheated - what the heck was she thinking? If Marion Jones wasn't a STRONG enough example of why you shouldn't cheat... what a waste of talent... but it makes me wonder how long she's been "taking" this stuff. She would have been tested at Cal after winning events at NCAA's... I'm interested to hear more details as they come out this week... but after reading some of the above posts... it doesn't sound good.


:shakeshead:

ROOSTER67
July 23rd, 2008, 10:44 PM
Tragedy for USA Swimming. Horrible distraction for the ladies traveling abroad. Media will have a picnic with this one.

FlyQueen
July 23rd, 2008, 10:46 PM
How can she whine about the consequences if she intentionally cheated though? Maybe would be drug cheaters should preemptively see psychologists who tell them over and over that their life will be ruined irrevocably if they go down that path, although often deterrence is of little use (which is why people break the law). She has no recourse but to do an "Andy Petite" and throw herself on the mercy of the court, admit she was wrong and beg for forgiveness.

I find it a lot more sad when something out of the blue or unexpected "ruins" the life of a good and honest person or their family.

Well first we have to see what all shakes out of this and what the consequences are ... but I still think it's sad that one bad decision can screw up all of your life. She made a bad decision and yes she has to live with that but it still sucks for her. Absolutely she have known better.

I agree that it's worse if something crappy happens to an honest person ...

Paul Smith
July 23rd, 2008, 10:55 PM
Not relevant. If a swimmer is on a prescription for any substance on the banned list, they must disclose that prior to competition. WELL prior. It sure looks like, if she was, she sure didn't.

Wake up call to forum! if you are an "elite" swimmer and you make a choice (at times stupid) to take ANY substance in your body banned or not you are making a CHOICE to risk your career.

Listen up...we are not talking about 10 year olds at soccer practice (another conversation)....we are talking about elite athletes that are well aware of the risks. give me a break...no sympathy.

hofffam
July 23rd, 2008, 11:03 PM
IF she is found guilty:

Drag her ass and whomever helped her in this crime off to jail in chains and publish the photo's in every paper and at every swim club in the country. Shame on her and anyone who defends this BS....she's 21, she's an adult and she wanted to win at all costs. She basically said screw you to all of her teammates and everyone in sport who plays by the rules...there goes any chance the 400 medley relay had against the Aussies.

Two thumbs up to this.

Also - her LIFE is not ruined. Her swimming career is ruined. She can go back to school, get a degree, and continue with a more normal adult life. She just won't be a 2008 Olympic swimmer nor medalist.

99% of the possible employers she might interview with a few years from now won't know who she is. No one in a non-athletic industry will ask "did you ever test positive for a performance enhancing drug."

elise526
July 23rd, 2008, 11:03 PM
I feel the worst for her coach. What a betrayal to him this all is! Her parents must be having a hard time as well. She has hurt many people besides herself in doing this.

Kurt Dickson
July 23rd, 2008, 11:06 PM
I feel the worst for her coach. What a betrayal to him this all is! Her parents must be having a hard time as well. She has hurt many people besides herself in doing this.

???.....she probably got if from her coach.

Paul Smith
July 23rd, 2008, 11:09 PM
I feel the worst for her coach. What a betrayal to him this all is! Her parents must be having a hard time as well. She has hurt many people besides herself in doing this.

Elise....I find it almost impossible to beleive that a coach would not be aware that something was going on here. if you oversee the training of an elite athlete on a dialy basis its hard to miss anything...again we don't know the whole story but for me i find a coach in this type of situation guilty until proven innocent. The only people I feel sorry for are the innocent temmates, coaching staff for the "O" team and family who didn't know she was a cheater.

FlyQueen
July 23rd, 2008, 11:10 PM
Two thumbs up to this.

Also - her LIFE is not ruined. Her swimming career is ruined. She can go back to school, get a degree, and continue with a more normal adult life. She just won't be a 2008 Olympic swimmer nor medalist.

99% of the possible employers she might interview with a few years from now won't know who she is. No one in a non-athletic industry will ask "did you ever test positive for a performance enhancing drug."

They'll goggle her ...

I doubt she got the drugs from Salo ...

SwimStud
July 23rd, 2008, 11:11 PM
99% of the possible employers she might interview with a few years from now won't know who she is. No one in a non-athletic industry will ask "did you ever test positive for a performance enhancing drug."

Tomorrow morning they'll know her name. By the end of the games and the constant "XXX who replaced the banned Jessica Hardy" comments every time they swim they'll know. Everyone knows who Ben Johnson, and Marion Jones are...if the person in the interview doesn't someone will along the chain. That's by the by anyhow...her loss. It's just a tragedy.

Like FQ said There's also likely to be a background check, where this will likely pop up. If nobodys lose jobs because of photos on my space you can bet your bikini she'll be fighting this every step.

Michelina
July 23rd, 2008, 11:14 PM
I dont know that I would start attacking Dave at this point... I swam for him years ago, and didnt seem the type. But he has moved on and up since NOVA... but still... each person on this earth has the ability to say NO!!!!

knelson
July 23rd, 2008, 11:17 PM
I can't wait to hear her excuse. You know it's coming. Cheats that actually fess up to their cheating are rare indeed.

The Fortress
July 23rd, 2008, 11:21 PM
I can't wait to hear her excuse. You know it's coming. Cheats that actually fess up to their cheating are rare indeed.

But the Floyd Landis "defense" doesn't work. Better to say she was a dumb and cocky 21 year old with no judgment and write a book. Hey, come to think of it, that "yeah, I'm really stupid" approach worked for Michael Phelps when he was caught driving drunk.

SwimStud
July 23rd, 2008, 11:26 PM
Bring back corporal punsihment and the draft...that will straighten all this out!

ALM
July 23rd, 2008, 11:29 PM
From swimnews.com:

Jessica Hardy Tests Positive-But Who Leaked The Story?
http://www.swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?id=6227

SwimStud
July 23rd, 2008, 11:31 PM
From swimnews.com:

Jessica Hardy Tests Positive-But Who Leaked The Story?
http://www.swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?id=6227

Oh Dara leaked it for sure...bit of a smokescreen and diversion...:rolleyes:

TheGoodSmith
July 23rd, 2008, 11:34 PM
If she took Clen, she may have taken it in conjunction with something else.


Illicit Uses:

Clenbuterol is abused for its ability to alter body composition by reducing body fat and increasing skeletal muscle mass. It is typically abused by athletes and bodybuilders at a dose of 60-120 m g per day. It is often used in combination with other performance enhancing drugs, such as anabolic steroids and growth hormone.

Sam Perry
July 23rd, 2008, 11:35 PM
The only people I feel sorry for are the innocent temmates, coaching staff for the "O" team and family who didn't know she was a cheater.

Not to mention Tara Kirk, and the rest of the people who lost to her if she cheated.

As I said on the Jaben thread and Fort alluded to, she needs to admit she cheated if she did. Come clean, say you did it and move on. It will bring credibility to the system of testing and hopefully remove the cloud somewhat over USA Swimming. If she comes clean and says she did it on her own, better for everyone.

If she tries the Landis, Jones, Clemens defense there will be a much darker cloud of suspicion over the US Olympic team in Beijing that will be such a distraction as the press will continue to ask about it.

Allen Stark
July 23rd, 2008, 11:47 PM
I should have suspected something when she came out of nowhere as a freestyle sprinter.These swimmers have it drummed into their heads about PEDs and testing.They should know not to take anything without an OK.Also this is not something found in legitament supplements to my knowledge.She cheated!

Sam Perry
July 23rd, 2008, 11:52 PM
I should have suspected something when she came out of nowhere as a freestyle sprinter.These swimmers have it drummed into their heads about PEDs and testing.They should know not to take anything without an OK.Also this is not something found in legitament supplements to my knowledge.She cheated!

My question is how many people get away with it? The risks are obvious as we all know. If the tests are not effective (i.e. only very few get caught due to the incompetency of testing) then the risk is not nearly as great. I hate being so skeptical but how can you blame me? Why would anyone in their right mind cheat if the chance of getting caught was great? If the chance is minimized by masking agents, cycling, etc. then the risk is much lower.

ALM
July 23rd, 2008, 11:55 PM
Clenbuterol, from what I read, can't be legally prescribed in the US?

From the DEA's web site:
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/clenbuterol.htm



Introduction:

Clenbuterol is a potent, long-lasting bronchodilator that is prescribed for human use outside of the U.S. It is abused generally by bodybuilders and athletes for its ability to increase lean muscle mass and reduce body fat (i.e., repartitioning effects). However, clenbuterol is also associated with significant adverse cardiovascular and neurological effects.

Licit Uses:

In the U.S., clenbuterol is not approved for human use; the only approved use is for horses. In 1998, the FDA approved the clenbuterol-based Ventipulmin Syrup, manufactured by Boehringer Ingelheim Vetmedica, Inc., as a prescription-only drug for the treatment of airway obstruction in horses (0.8-3.2 m g/kg twice daily). This product is not intended for human use or for use in food-producing animals.

Outside the U.S., clenbuterol is available by prescription for the treatment of bronchial asthma in humans. It is available in tablets (0.01 or 0.02 mg per tablet) and liquid preparations. The recommended dosage is 0.02-0.03 mg twice daily.

Chemistry and Pharmacology:

Clenbuterol is a beta2-adrenergic agonist. Stimulation of the beta2-adrenergic receptors on bronchial smooth muscle produces bronchodilation. However, clenbuterol also stimulates beta2-adrenergic receptors in other tissues, as well as beta1-adrenergic receptors, producing adverse cardiovascular and neurological effects, such as heart palpitations, muscle tremors, and nervousness. Activation of beta-adrenergic receptors also accounts for clenbuterol’s ability to increase lean muscle mass and reduce body fat, although the downstream mechanisms by which it does so have yet to be clearly defined.

After ingestion, clenbuterol is readily absorbed (70-80%) and remains in the body for awhile (25-39 hours). As a result of its long half life, the adverse effects of clenbuterol are often prolonged.

Illicit Uses:

Clenbuterol is abused for its ability to alter body composition by reducing body fat and increasing skeletal muscle mass. It is typically abused by athletes and bodybuilders at a dose of 60-120 m g per day. It is often used in combination with other performance enhancing drugs, such as anabolic steroids and growth hormone.

It is also illicitly administered to livestock for its repartitioning effects. This has resulted in several outbreaks of acute illness in Spain, France, Italy, China, and Portugal 0.5-3 hours after individuals ingested liver and meat containing clenbuterol residues. The symptoms, which included increased heart rate, nervousness, headache, muscular tremor, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, fever, and chills, typically resolved within 2 to 6 days. Consequently, the U.S. and Europe actively monitor urine and tissue samples from livestock for the presence of clenbuterol.

There have also been reports of clenbuterol-tainted heroin and cocaine. Although no deaths were attributed to the clenbuterol exposures, the individuals were hospitalized for up to several days due to clenbuterol intoxication.

User Population:

Clenbuterol is typically abused by athletes. It is thought to be more popular among female athletes as the repartitioning effects are not associated with the typical androgenic side effects (i.e., facial hair, deepening of the voice, and thickening of the skin) of anabolic steroids. Professional athletes in several different sports have recently tested positive for clenbuterol. Clenbuterol is also marketed and abused for weight-loss purposes.

Illicit Distribution:

Clenbuterol is readily available on the Internet as tablets, syrup, and an injectable formulation. The drug is purportedly obtained by illegal importation from other countries where it is approved for human use.

According to the System to Retrieve Information on Drug Evidence (STRIDE) data, since 2000 DEA forensic laboratories analyzed 109 clenbuterol drug items from 77 different law enforcement cases. The analyzed drug exhibits comprised of 39,643 tablets, 17,704.11 grams of powder and 1,828.7 ml liquid. Since 2000, according to National Forensic Laboratory Information System (NFLIS), state and local forensic laboratories analyzed 68 clebuterol drug items from 53 different law enforcement cases. These relatively small numbers are likely a reflection of the non-controlled status of clenbuterol in the U.S. Clenbuterol is often seized in cases that also involve anabolic steroids and other performance enhancing drugs (i.e. human growth hormone.)

Control status:

Clenbuterol is currently not controlled under the Controlled Substances Act (CSA). However, clenbuterol is listed by the World Anti-Doping Agency and the International Olympic Committee as a performance enhancing drug and therefore athletes are barred from its use. At present, no states have placed clenbuterol under control.

SwimStud
July 23rd, 2008, 11:58 PM
Jayhawk, so who in their right mind woud opt to take this crap?..that's the part that still baffles me.

"Here's your medal, your liver is deissicated and waiting for you in the bathroom where you dropped it...."

The Fortress
July 24th, 2008, 12:03 AM
Why would anyone in their right mind cheat if the chance of getting caught was great?

I guess the more immediate desire to win trumps the possibility, more remote in time, that they may get caught and pitchforked. It appears they somehow seem to suppress or deny the consequences of getting caught -- as if it existed in some alternate fantasy world. Odd to me, but not that different than other things, e.g., cheating in school, drinking and driving, etc. Maybe the desire to win/garner fame simply exceeds the desire to do what is right in the moral (not competitive sports) universe? Or perhaps there are just too many bailouts or rationalizations for bad behavior?

Liver failure is just not all that immediate and pressing to 21 year olds, Stud ... They live in the present and suspend reality.

Sam Perry
July 24th, 2008, 12:03 AM
Jayhawk, so who in their right mind woud opt to take this crap?..that's the part that still baffles me.

"Here's your medal, your liver is deissicated and waiting for you in the bathroom where you dropped it...."

Someone should have asked my friend that question 20 years ago. He died this year of a heart attack at 46 years old. He played college and pro football. I think the PEDs he took killed him. For that matter, someone should have asked Lyle Alzado and Flo Jo.

Peter Cruise
July 24th, 2008, 12:05 AM
I am sad for her parents. I met them at the PanPacs and had long conversation with her father. They were immensely proud of her, but no way high pressure pushy parents and I was very impressed by their love for the sport itself. No excuse for her, but I cannot see them knowing about it.

SwimStud
July 24th, 2008, 12:08 AM
Someone should have asked my fried that question 20 years ago. He died this year of a heart attack at 46 years old. He played college and pro football. I think the PEDs he took killed him. For that matter, someone should have asked Lyle Alzado and Flo Jo.

Sam with all due respect to them. I was just a mug lifting weights in a local gym, I knew of the dangers, some of them. Shrunken testes, enlarged breasts oozing brown gunk from the nipple...etc. I'd never have taken any of it.

Not saying your friend or the others did know but the info was out, using this stuff baffles me, even more so when you're just an average guy looking to beef up for the beach etc. At least with the pro's they have top medcal teams monitoring and such, and even that isn't a guarantee as you sadly illustrated. It's just tragic all the way around.

Sam Perry
July 24th, 2008, 12:16 AM
It's just tragic all the way around.

Amen, Brother Barry. Sadly enough it is here and here to stay. I don't think sports will/can ever be clean. People want to win and some will win at all costs.

elise526
July 24th, 2008, 12:36 AM
Elise....I find it almost impossible to beleive that a coach would not be aware that something was going on here. if you oversee the training of an elite athlete on a dialy basis its hard to miss anything...again we don't know the whole story but for me i find a coach in this type of situation guilty until proven innocent. The only people I feel sorry for are the innocent temmates, coaching staff for the "O" team and family who didn't know she was a cheater.

I really hope Dave Salo has no connection because he also coached Rebecca Soni. If folks are suspicious of him, I can't help but think they will also wonder if Rebecca is being fueled. Rebecca has already overcome some health problems to make the team, so this is the last thing that she needs.

ande
July 24th, 2008, 01:03 AM
the leak happened because a secet is something
you tell one person at a time

aquageek
July 24th, 2008, 06:59 AM
I agree and don't ... I really do think it sucks that at 21 she pretty much ruined her life, yet she did do it to herself. It's just always sad when someone makes one bad decision and it haunts them for the rest of their lives.

It is completely ridiculous to state this is ONE or A bad decision. It represents a series of bad decisions, possibly including breaking the law. Further, it sets up a series of other significant bad decision down the line. There's no way to gloss this over or explain it away. It's not sad, how can it be sad? This was a calculated move intended to benefit only herself to the peril of both herself and others around her. It could also be a crime, who knows. Sad is when your dog dies not when you break the rules/laws knowingly.

I do concur that while her swimming career is ruined her life isn't over. It will certainly be much different but there's no reason for it to be over. She should definitely suffer all the consequences, which will be significant hopefully.

No one answered Smith's question about any athletes who have gone to China in the past two years. Anyone know?

USMSarah
July 24th, 2008, 07:35 AM
That NBC article keeps changing and now it says that Jessica's lawyer said that she was tested 3 times throughout Trials. The first, she was negative... the second (both A and B samples) were positive... and the third was negative.

ViveBene
July 24th, 2008, 07:36 AM
On AOL Sports this morning:

http://sports.aol.com/story/_a/bbdp/source-swimmer-jessica-hardy-tests/98156?cid=12

aquageek
July 24th, 2008, 07:45 AM
That NBC article keeps changing and now it says that Jessica's lawyer said that she was tested 3 times throughout Trials. The first, she was negative... the second (both A and B samples) were positive... and the third was negative.

Are the French or BALCO in charge of testing?

USMSarah
July 24th, 2008, 08:10 AM
According to the swimnetwork article...

http://www.swimnetwork.com/blogs/blog/20080723/jessica_hardy_fails_drug_test-1044.html;jsessionid=31A89E18647B6D3DA87E1EB3B1323 2DF

The rules state that if Hardy is banned... Soni would take the 100 BR spot and Joyce would be in the 50... You cannot add onto the roster after a certain time. Kirk and Jackson got hosed.

Iwannafly
July 24th, 2008, 08:20 AM
It's not sad, how can it be sad? This was a calculated move intended to benefit only herself to the peril of both herself and others around her. It could also be a crime, who knows. Sad is when your dog dies not when you break the rules/laws knowingly.



Absolutely this is sad. I AM NOT SAYING THAT SHE IS AN ADDICT, but when a drug addict throws their life away for the momentary high, that's sad. It's still a series of bad decisions every time they use, but it's still sad. The high you get from winning on the world's biggest stage can be almost as great as the euphoric high you get when you shoot up heroin. I can easily see how the desire to feel the high of winning Olympic gold might overcome any rational or logical thought, just like the desire to feel the high of shooting up might overcome the rational thought that it may kill you. Most addicts have the unique ability to rationalize most any abnormal behavior. At a certain point, an addict no longer chooses to use, they just have to. It could be that Ms. Hardy had reached that point.
That being said, she certainly doesn't deserve any second chances or special treatment if in fact she was cheating.

aquageek
July 24th, 2008, 08:24 AM
I didn't realize she was an addict. She is possibly a cheater and a liar but I haven't read where she has a PED addiction. This thread is comical - bad decisions, sad, now allegations of addiction. Wouldn't it just be easier to say she is a fraud and a cheater?

Iwannafly
July 24th, 2008, 08:26 AM
I didn't realize she was an addict. She is possibly a cheater and a liar but I haven't read where she has a PED addiction. This thread is comical - bad decisions, sad, now allegations of addiction. Wouldn't it just be easier to say she is a fraud and a cheater?

I didn't say she was an addict, but I did compare the high of winning on a stage like the Olympics to a drug high. I appreciate your witty banter for the most part, but did you really even read my post or did you just gloss over it so you could offer up some patented Geek wisdom?

aquageek
July 24th, 2008, 08:27 AM
OK, that's fne, sorry. I saw the word addict three times in your post and I jumped the shark.

Iwannafly
July 24th, 2008, 08:28 AM
OK, that's fne, sorry. I saw the word addict three times in your post and I jumped the shark.
Easy there, no shark jumping. This thread has staying power, no need to throw in a 'jump the shark' episode!

Blackbeard's Peg
July 24th, 2008, 08:30 AM
For all those speculating on who will take her place, the answer is no one.
Hardy's name was submitted on the list of athletes in the US delegation; the deadline to make any changes was July 21... this past Monday. (another article) (http://msn.foxsports.com/olympics/story/8373888/Reports:-U.S.-swimmer-Hardy-fails-drug-test?CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=235)
We'll have only one entry in the 50 free and 100 breast
:dedhorse:

swimmieAvsFan
July 24th, 2008, 08:36 AM
deleted...

Iwannafly
July 24th, 2008, 08:39 AM
Deleted

The Fortress
July 24th, 2008, 08:45 AM
I didn't realize she was an addict. She is possibly a cheater and a liar but I haven't read where she has a PED addiction. This thread is comical - bad decisions, sad, now allegations of addiction. Wouldn't it just be easier to say she is a fraud and a cheater?

I don't buy "addict" either. That label seems to fall into the trying to excuse her behavior category. She looks like an angel, but she is more likely a fraud and a cheater. Ugly words, but still applicable. Maybe there's a shrink who will explain why that's a new legal defense.

That sucks for Kirk and Jackson, who apparently trained their brains out legally for their shot.

Saw this on FB, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJutZWn9SVM

phdude
July 24th, 2008, 08:45 AM
What an enormous letdown for tara kirk...she placed 3rd (2nd actually) by only one one-hundredth of a second. and she won't be going, thanks to hardy, as well as a technicality on selection rules. something needs to be done about the selection process. either speed up the announcing of positive tests, or move back the deadline. with a test for hgh on the horizon, i'm sure this won't be the last time a swimmer loses their ticket to the olympics because of a cheat, unless they figure out a way to address the situation better for 3rdplace swimmers.

Iwannafly
July 24th, 2008, 09:07 AM
I don't buy "addict" either. That label seems to fall into the trying to excuse her behavior category. She looks like an angel, but she is more likely a fraud and a cheater. Ugly words, but still applicable. Maybe there's a shrink who will explain why that's a new legal defense.

Again, I did not call her an addict and I did not attempt to excuse her behavior. I simply said that the thrill of winning an Olympic gold medal could easily cause somebody to lose touch with the reality that what they are doing is cheating and compared that thrill with getting high.

thewookiee
July 24th, 2008, 09:10 AM
Ok, somebody with information of the body and chemicals explain how apparently she was tested 3 times during the trials and the results were negative-positive-negative

gull
July 24th, 2008, 09:12 AM
Ok, somebody with information of the body and chemicals explain how apparently she was tested 3 times during the trials and the results were negative-positive-negative


Sure--maybe she used during the trials, just as Landis did in the Tour. It all depends on how quickly the substance is eliminated from the body.

USMSarah
July 24th, 2008, 09:28 AM
Saw this on FB, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJutZWn9SVM

That was kind of hard to watch and listen to (love Mel Stewart), giving a brief history of past swimmers who were affected by doping. Is it just me or did Mel look like he got a little emotional right at the end?

The Fortress
July 24th, 2008, 09:34 AM
Again, I did not call her an addict and I did not attempt to excuse her behavior. I simply said that the thrill of winning an Olympic gold medal could easily cause somebody to lose touch with the reality that what they are doing is cheating.

I know you were just using the analogy. Still, how can you be in denial when you're ingesting drugs you know are banned? Drug use takes some planning, procurement and execution -- unless she was literally being force fed unnamed vitamins. I can see cheaters being in denial of the consequences, since so many go uncaught. And I can sorta see how they attempt to rationalize their drug use -- perhaps by thinking so many others do it. But how can they not realize they're taking banned substances?! Nope, can't see that. These are elite athletes that know what they're doing and know what they shouldn't do.

Iwannafly
July 24th, 2008, 09:41 AM
I know you were just using the analogy. Still, how can you be in denial when you're ingesting drugs? Drug use takes some planning, procurement and execution -- unless she was literally being force fed unnamed vitamins. I can see cheaters can be in denial of the consequences, since so many go uncaught. And I can see how they attempt to rationalize their drug use -- so many do it. But how can they not realize they're taking banned substances? Nope, can't see that.

I agree with you about not realizing. If she was taking this drug to get stronger, then absolutely, she was knowingly cheating. I should have been more clear when I said that I could see how she rationalized it. I shouldn't have said she might not think she was cheating, but perhaps the thought of that feeling of winning an Olympic gold triggered something in her mind to convince herself that cheating was worth the risk. At a certain point, there ceases to be any conscious thought of whether or not what you're doing is right.
Someone made the comment that it was sad and Geek said it wasn't. I was simply saying that her situation might be similar to a drug addiction. I can think of a number of extremely talented people who throw careers away because of drug addiction and it's sad. They don't deserve sympathy...they deserve every consequence of their actions. But it's still sad.

tjburk
July 24th, 2008, 09:52 AM
This is really conflicting........on one hand I am with Paul Smith....if found guilty....hang her out to dry and lynch anybody that helped her or knew about it. On the other hand I am like George.....too many discrepancies in the information coming out of this.....I'll wait and see what the final verdict is.

FlyQueen
July 24th, 2008, 09:56 AM
Muppet, are you sure they cannot replace her with members of the team? I know for gymnastics (different sport, but I'd imagine the same rules) they had to name their team and alternates by the 21st but can sub in an alternate up to 24 hours in advance. I would think that nearly 3 weeks out would be a bit early to assume no one would get injured or sick and not allow for a substitution. They don't name the relay teams until the last minute.

ande
July 24th, 2008, 10:05 AM
What if she was sabotaged?

what if someone slipped a little something in her water bottle?

TheGoodSmith
July 24th, 2008, 10:06 AM
What if she merely didn't use her masking agent correctly?

ande
July 24th, 2008, 10:09 AM
I wonder when the the coaches first knew about this?

Why did it take so long to get the results?

phdude
July 24th, 2008, 10:10 AM
yeah, what if.

chowmi
July 24th, 2008, 10:15 AM
Apologies in advance if this has already been posted.

This is becoming a big story, lots of outlets picking it up.
German TV report warns of gene doping in China[/font]
11 hours ago[/font]
FRANKFURT, Germany — A German television report on the availability of gene doping in China has stunned anti-doping experts shortly before the Beijing Olympics.[/font]
In a documentary by ARD television, a Chinese doctor offers stem-cell therapy to a reporter posing as an American swimming coach.[/font]
The report, filmed with a concealed camera, shows the doctor with his face blurred speaking in Chinese and offering the treatment in return for US$24,000, according to a translation provided by the ARD television.[/font]
The documentary broadcast Monday did not offer evidence that the hospital had provided gene doping to other athletes, but anti-doping officials were appalled that the treatment was so readily available.[/font]
"I could not have imagined it in such a provable form," Mario Thevis, chief of the German centre of preventive doping research in Cologne.[/font]
Another Cologne expert on gene doping, Patrick Diel, said he was "stunned to see it."[/font]
"It goes beyond my worst expectations," Diel said.[/font]
In the documentary, the reporter posing as an American swimming coach meets with the head of the gene therapy department of a Chinese hospital. It did not name the doctor, or the hospital.[/font]
The fictitious coach says he is seeking stem-cell treatment for one of his swimmers.[/font]
"Yes. We have no experience with athletes here, but the treatment is safe and we can help you," the doctor replies. "It strengthens lung function and stem cells go into the bloodstream and reach the organs. It takes two weeks. I recommend four intravenous injections ... 40 million stem cells or double that, the more the better. We also use human growth hormones, but you have to be careful because they are on the doping list."[/font]
The program also showed how pharmaceutical companies in China were ready to sell steroids and the blood-booster EPO. [/font]

Blackbeard's Peg
July 24th, 2008, 10:27 AM
Muppet, are you sure they cannot replace her with members of the team? I know for gymnastics (different sport, but I'd imagine the same rules) they had to name their team and alternates by the 21st but can sub in an alternate up to 24 hours in advance. I would think that nearly 3 weeks out would be a bit early to assume no one would get injured or sick and not allow for a substitution. They don't name the relay teams until the last minute.

It has been brought to my attention that perhaps my statement needs a qualification - that yes, they cannot substitute someone NEW for her spots on the team roster. As for taking someone else already on the roster and filling spots, I have no idea.

ViveBene
July 24th, 2008, 10:28 AM
Chinese swimmer Ouyang was also found to have failed a drug test, clenbuterol, in out-of-competition testing in May/June. He was headed for Olympics. He and his coach received lifetime bans.

An older BBC News article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympics/swimming/7477072.stm

hofffam
July 24th, 2008, 10:43 AM
Tomorrow morning they'll know her name. By the end of the games and the constant "XXX who replaced the banned Jessica Hardy" comments every time they swim they'll know. Everyone knows who Ben Johnson, and Marion Jones are...if the person in the interview doesn't someone will along the chain. That's by the by anyhow...her loss. It's just a tragedy.

Like FQ said There's also likely to be a background check, where this will likely pop up. If nobodys lose jobs because of photos on my space you can bet your bikini she'll be fighting this every step.

Positive drug tests are not kept in a national repository searched during background checks. Unless she broke a law, and is convicted, no athletic black mark will appear on a background check.

Please be realistic. Yes everyone knows Ben Johnson and Marion Jones. Marion Jones is in prison. She has to answer the "have you ever been convicted" question with a yes. Both were stripped of Olympic medals. Their fame was far greater than Jessica Hardy. If she gets a marketing degree and looks for a job in two years - this will not affect her hiring.

scyfreestyler
July 24th, 2008, 10:44 AM
http://wcsnblogs.com/swimming/tarakirk

This part of the story is sad.

lefty
July 24th, 2008, 10:51 AM
Wier and Kirk would be heading to Peking if the results had been confirmed last week. So WHY does the US schedule trials without enough time to do the drug testing? That is really POOR planning. Of course there are so many heads in the sand over in Colorado I am sure the idea that you would need to consider this in the timing of the trials is news.

knelson
July 24th, 2008, 10:58 AM
Wier and Kirk would be heading to Peking if the results had been confirmed last week. So WHY does the US schedule trials without enough time to do the drug testing? That is really POOR planning. Of course there are so many heads in the sand over in Colorado I am sure the idea that you would need to consider this in the timing of the trials is news.

Don't forget about Lara Jackson in the 50.

I don't know, do you really think we need to start scheduling Trials around drug testing? I really don't like that idea.

blainesapprentice
July 24th, 2008, 11:06 AM
IF she cheated screw her...it should ruin her life. A bad decison is turning left when you meant to turn right...not taking drugs to win in sport.

100% Agreed.

quicksilver
July 24th, 2008, 11:15 AM
http://wcsnblogs.com/swimming/tarakirk

This part of the story is sad.

It really is sad, but also profoundly moving.
Her grace throughout the disappointment speaks volumes about true character.

Thanks for posting that.

Mswimming
July 24th, 2008, 11:46 AM
I was a timer at the Swim meet of champions in Mission Viejo earlier this year and saw Jessica swim several times. I'm not sure if this is a symptom, but she had terrible acne and her face looked kind of puffy.

scyfreestyler
July 24th, 2008, 11:50 AM
It really is sad, but also profoundly moving.
Her grace throughout the disappointment speaks volumes about true character.

Thanks for posting that.

Very well stated.

Mswimming
July 24th, 2008, 11:54 AM
I just did a quick googls on Clenbuterol half life and it came back with 36-39 hours. I assume that is the window in which you can test positive. Can someone verify? That would explain the negative,positive then negative tests.

Daaaave
July 24th, 2008, 11:57 AM
I was a timer at the Swim meet of champions in Mission Viejo earlier this year and saw Jessica swim several times. I'm not sure if this is a symptom, but she had terrible acne and her face looked kind of puffy.

Pretty much every girl/young woman in her teens and 20s goes through periods where they're zitty and puffy. Also a symptom of the pill. Except with the rare egregious examples (Gusamo), physical appearance is just not a reliable way to gauge PED use in this day and age. More likely to be coincidental in Hardy's case regardless of how this thing shakes out.

Stillhere
July 24th, 2008, 11:59 AM
I am 100% with the Smith on this one! Lock the cheater up and give her a few months in JAIL! :mad:
NEXT!

knelson
July 24th, 2008, 12:05 PM
I just did a quick googls on Clenbuterol half life and it came back with 36-39 hours. I assume that is the window in which you can test positive. Can someone verify? That would explain the negative,positive then negative tests.

Half-life is the time it takes for something to decay to half its original level. So, no, not exactly. It would depend on the initial dose taken and the dectection threshold of the drug.

Rob Copeland
July 24th, 2008, 12:05 PM
What if she was sabotaged?

what if someone slipped a little something in her water bottle?

Interesting questions…

It could explain why her 4 other tests this year all came back negative (or a least they were not reported as positive).

Sam Perry
July 24th, 2008, 12:08 PM
Interesting questions…

It could explain why her 4 other tests this year all came back negative (or a least they were not reported as positive).

Is the really serious? Give me a break, if she is found to have been positive no one tampered with her sample. That is just plain conspiracy crazy talk. If that was ever to happen, trust me there would be a TON of positive tests. If someone wanted to take her out, hire Tonya Harding's brother in law.

Paul Smith
July 24th, 2008, 12:13 PM
Interesting questions…

It could explain why her 4 other tests this year all came back negative (or a least they were not reported as positive).

Rob...do you think the testing being done is good enough to catch the majority of cheaters?

Personally I fear there is far more cheating going on than people want to accept and that for the most part the cheaters are way ahead of our testing programs.

smontanaro
July 24th, 2008, 12:18 PM
something needs to be done about the selection process. either speed up the announcing of positive tests, or move back the deadline.

Hold the trials a bit earlier, perhaps?

Skip

Rain Man
July 24th, 2008, 12:25 PM
You know what's really sad- I read something someone on a cycling forum wrote after Floyd's test from the TdF came back positive, and I thought "whatever this guy's a whack-job". But now I can see where he was coming from. He wrote "They're all cheaters folks. Just some of them don't get caught."

Now of course he may have been talking strictly cycling, but you seriously have to wonder. Even if it was unintentional, all of these athletes take all kinds of supplements and dietary aids to assist their training. They are already ingesting various chemical compounds to enhance their performance, true? Whether or not the substance shows up on the "banned" list, are they not "performance-enhancing drugs"?

Whatever happened to eating a chicken sandwich, drinking a glass of V8, wolfing down a scoop of ice cream, and calling it a night? Go hard on workout days, rest on the off days. Let your body tell you what you need to do, don't chemically trick it into believing it's ready to workout for the 200th day in a row.

It's pathetic- everyone are at fault. The swimmers, the coaches, USA Swimming, the doctors, the dieticians, Speedo, TYR, etc. They all share some blame in this. If you care about the sports being clean, get the money out of swimming, out of track, and out of cycling. If you don't care, then get rid of drug testing and the banned substance list and have at it. Enough is enough.

aquageek
July 24th, 2008, 12:27 PM
What if she was sabotaged?

what if someone slipped a little something in her water bottle?

You can't be serious. This excuse was old even in the early 90s, maybe it's making a comeback. Even you boy Floyd didn't try that one on for size.

If you know anyone who is subject to testing, you know that it is really easy to stay clean using common sense. A - you don't do drugs. B - you only accept items from people you know or trust or don't accept anything.

There's only one person ultimately responsible, the athlete. Everything else, the excuses, is just noise.

knelson
July 24th, 2008, 12:31 PM
They are already ingesting various chemical compounds to enhance their performance, true?

No. Some do, some don't. Anyone taking supplements these days ought to be damn sure what they're taking.

LindsayNB
July 24th, 2008, 12:37 PM
I think one of the most interesting aspects is that she tested positive on the 4th and negative on the 6th. That implies that it is very possible to use these types of drugs without having any positive test results, random out of competition testing being the only obstacle.

FlyQueen
July 24th, 2008, 12:39 PM
I doubt that even if the tests came back a few days earlier they would have added Jackson, Kirk, and Weir. The biggest issue would be that they probably haven't trained at all since trials - and I'd much rather put in someone like Joyce and Soni who have been at camp and maybe didn't hit their taper rather than someone who has been out of the water for two or three weeks.

It also makes me wonder if this has anything to do with adding Joyce ... the first test came back negative, positive, negative so they waited to see what happened with the b sample but figured their bases were covered if they added Joyce ... conspiracy theory???

tjburk
July 24th, 2008, 12:47 PM
I doubt that even if the tests came back a few days earlier they would have added Jackson, Kirk, and Weir. The biggest issue would be that they probably haven't trained at all since trials - and I'd much rather put in someone like Joyce and Soni who have been at camp and maybe didn't hit their taper rather than someone who has been out of the water for two or three weeks.

It also makes me wonder if this has anything to do with adding Joyce ... the first test came back negative, positive, negative so they waited to see what happened with the b sample but figured their bases were covered if they added Joyce ... conspiracy theory???

That's it Heather.....stir it up!!!!!!!:lmao::lmao:

knelson
July 24th, 2008, 12:47 PM
It also makes me wonder if this has anything to do with adding Joyce

I don't think so. They followed the letter of the rules to add Joyce. Torres dropped out of the 100 free and Joyce was next in line. The same thing happened in 2004 when Bryce Hunt was added to the team in the 200 back after Phelps dropped the event.

aquageek
July 24th, 2008, 12:56 PM
I think one of the most interesting aspects is that she tested positive on the 4th and negative on the 6th. That implies that it is very possible to use these types of drugs without having any positive test results, random out of competition testing being the only obstacle.

I hadn't looked at it that way, good point!

The Fortress
July 24th, 2008, 01:05 PM
You can't be serious.

He can't. Really ...

scyfreestyler
July 24th, 2008, 01:08 PM
He can't. Really ...

If the two of you can't stop agreeing with each other, I'm going to get real angry! :mad:

Paul Smith
July 24th, 2008, 01:10 PM
I think one of the most interesting aspects is that she tested positive on the 4th and negative on the 6th. That implies that it is very possible to use these types of drugs without having any positive test results, random out of competition testing being the only obstacle.

Remember...Marion never tested positive. Out of competition testing only works when you know what your testing for and the athlete is not using any masking agents.

So with China now having a new gene doping/stem cell regime & WADA saying its their worst fears come true...is it time to check into past travel schedules of athletes....and is there any possiblity of ever detecting cheating at this level?

SwimStud
July 24th, 2008, 01:17 PM
TBH I really am not going to lose any sleep over this matter either way. It has no impact on my life so I don't ultimately care.

Daaaave
July 24th, 2008, 01:23 PM
Whatever happened to eating a chicken sandwich, drinking a glass of V8, wolfing down a scoop of ice cream, and calling it a night?



As long as that wasn't factory-farmed, extra-lean chicken! From the wikipedia entry on clenbuterol:

"In September 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_2006) over 330 people in Shanghai (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shanghai) were reported to have been poisoned (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_poisoning) by eating pork (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork) contaminated by Clenbuterol that had been fed to the animals to keep their meat lean. There are also other informal reports on localized food contamination cases by Clenbuterol in the U.S. which led to setting rules that limit comsumption of this medicine only to horses.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clenbuterol#cite_note-1)"

LindsayNB
July 24th, 2008, 01:28 PM
I have to admit to being a little confused on the gene doping/stem cell issue. What is the relationship if any between gene doping and stem cell treatments?

elise526
July 24th, 2008, 01:49 PM
About her future? If the final conclusion is that she did in fact cheat, then she will be an example to swimmers of what not to do. If her getting caught makes a few swimmers think twice then this will be a good thing. It would be great if she eventually becomes a spokesperson for anti-doping because she will have a pretty convincing story as to why it is not worth it to take PEDs.

The Fortress
July 24th, 2008, 01:59 PM
TBH I really am not going to lose any sleep over this matter either way. It has no impact on my life so I don't ultimately care.

It does on mine. Jessica was my kid's hero. She was under the impression that Jessica had swum well this year because of hard work and proper sprint training.

Besides, positive tests give swimming a bad name. That won't give me insomnia, but, as swimming is a major part of my family's life, I don't like it one bit.

aquageek
July 24th, 2008, 02:03 PM
I have to side with Fort on this one. Swimming sort of dictates the pace of life in our family (except for August!!!). Hard to explain this one to your kid other than "she needs a whoopin."

scyfreestyler
July 24th, 2008, 02:05 PM
As swimming becomes more mainstream and money continues to be offered to those swimming professionally, expect to see more and more PED's being used by people trying to reach those few valuable spots.

hofffam
July 24th, 2008, 02:07 PM
Remember...Marion never tested positive. Out of competition testing only works when you know what your testing for and the athlete is not using any masking agents.

So with China now having a new gene doping/stem cell regime & WADA saying its their worst fears come true...is it time to check into past travel schedules of athletes....and is there any possiblity of ever detecting cheating at this level?

Paul you are mistaken. Marion did fail a test for EPO in 2006. See link below:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/trackandfield/news/story?id=2554220

She did not fail a test for "the cream" ala Balco.

Out of competition testing can work - and I don't understand what you meant about not knowing what to test for. The drug testers of course should know what to test for - EVERYTHING.

Out of competition testing should be unannounced and athletes should be required to comply at all times.

None of us knows how prevalent PEDs are. I believe it is very common in certain sports (like cycling) with a long history of expert practitioners. They have been doing it for years and they have doctors (?) who work very hard to develop cheating aids. Track may be similar. We know many of the field athletes (shot put, etc.) have abused steroids. I just haven't seen evidence that PEDs in swimming are as common. I just don't think swimmers are as good at it as cyclists. I don't think the underground exists like it does for other sports.

But who knows.....I certainly have just an opinion and no first hand knowledge.

jordangregory
July 24th, 2008, 02:09 PM
You know what's really sad- I read something someone on a cycling forum wrote after Floyd's test from the TdF came back positive, and I thought "whatever this guy's a whack-job". But now I can see where he was coming from. He wrote "They're all cheaters folks. Just some of them don't get caught."

Now of course he may have been talking strictly cycling, but you seriously have to wonder. Even if it was unintentional, all of these athletes take all kinds of supplements and dietary aids to assist their training. They are already ingesting various chemical compounds to enhance their performance, true? Whether or not the substance shows up on the "banned" list, are they not "performance-enhancing drugs"?


Rain man is spot on with his assessment of the situation. Most top level athletes are "cheating". So called smart athletes have realized they can take "natural" products or stuff that is naturally found in the body. It is difficult to test for substances that are already in the human body.
Those doing drug tests don’t have a whole lot of options. For the most part, testers have threshold levels of specific “drugs” they look for. These threshold levels are actually higher than any drug free athletes would have in their blood stream, but they give a cushion so that no innocent athletes are found guilty. This is valued over some innocent athletes being wrongly blamed while catching almost all so called cheaters.
And has anyone heard about Dara Torres and her drug testing schedule. She does voluntary drug tests. Heck, I would too if I was taking drugs to cheat. The key to successful cheating is to take just enough drug to stay under the threshold set for a positive test. In order to do that, you have to be testing yourself frequently. Why not take a public test right after your "secret" test. It is a hell of a lot better than being randomly tested.
Has anyone here on this message board who does not take performance enhancing drugs ever though of being drug tested?
As for the issue on supplements, it has been shown that many of them have illegal substances in them. That is why bodybuilders take them!!! Protein shakes just aren't going to do it.
I was recently at a strength and conditioning symposium where a gentleman from England was presenting results from his testing of commercial supplements. He owned a company that tested supplements for the manufactures to make sure there were not illegal substances in them. Many manufacturers want to be able to assure the athletes taking them that they will not have positive test results when being drug tested.
Not surprisingly well over 3/4th of the supplements he tested had illegal substances in them.
His claim was that manufacturing takes place in factories that deal with a number of pharmaceuticals, which tend to get mixed in together. So, it is a very real possibility that if an athlete only tests positive once in their whole life, it may be due to taking a tainted batch of creatine or protein powder. It is also very likely they just did not monitor their blood levels closely enough while trying to cheat. Kidney function changes, liver function changes. Hydration levels change. Constant testing must be done if an athlete wants to cheat successfully. Or, do what Barry Bonds and many others have done.
Growth hormone is naturally found in the body, and it has a very short half life. He never tested positive for it because it just gets out of the system too fast.

Paul Smith
July 24th, 2008, 02:15 PM
Paul you are mistaken. Marion did fail a test for EPO in 2006. See link below:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/trackandfield/news/story?id=2554220

She did not fail a test for "the cream" ala Balco.

Out of competition testing can work - and I don't understand what you meant about not knowing what to test for. The drug testers of course should know what to test for - EVERYTHING.

Out of competition testing should be unannounced and athletes should be required to comply at all times.

None of us knows how prevalent PEDs are. I believe it is very common in certain sports (like cycling) with a long history of expert practitioners. They have been doing it for years and they have doctors (?) who work very hard to develop cheating aids. Track may be similar. We know many of the field athletes (shot put, etc.) have abused steroids. I just haven't seen evidence that PEDs in swimming are as common. I just don't think swimmers are as good at it as cyclists. I don't think the underground exists like it does for other sports.

But who knows.....I certainly have just an opinion and no first hand knowledge.

She was cleared, I made the same mistake however in talking about Bernad Lagat failing the initial test but the "B" sample coming back clean:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5780567

As for testing for EVERYTHING...you missed the point entirely...there was not a test for the clear and the cream because it was "created" and the only reason they found it was an at the time anonymous person sent a syringe with a sample of it. I 100% guarantee that there are drugs being used out there right now that no test can detect...that is why baseline testing year around ala the Garmin-Chiplote team is using is the only answer at the moment.

Lindsay...go back in the thread and click on the link about the recent under cover investigation by a German reporter posing as an American swim coach in China getting offered these treatments for $24k.

cantwait4bike
July 24th, 2008, 02:24 PM
A very sad day for swimming. Lucky triathletes don't have this problem.

aquageek
July 24th, 2008, 02:28 PM
A very sad day for swimming. Lucky triathletes don't have this problem.

Yeah, that sport doesn't have an obsession with supplements.

hofffam
July 24th, 2008, 02:29 PM
She was cleared, I made the same mistake however in talking about Bernad Lagat failing the initial test but the "B" sample coming back clean:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5780567

As for testing for EVERYTHING...you missed the point entirely...there was not a test for the clear and the cream because it was "created" and the only reason they found it was an at the time anonymous person sent a syringe with a sample of it. I 100% guarantee that there are drugs being used out there right now that no test can detect...that is why baseline testing year around ala the Garmin-Chiplote team is using is the only answer at the moment.

Lindsay...go back in the thread and click on the link about the recent under cover investigation by a German reporter posing as an American swim coach in China getting offered these treatments for $24k.

My mistake - Marion's B sample was negative.

If you are 100% sure - why don't you anonymously notify the appropriate agencies who and what?

One change in cycling's practice now is that they are allowed to target suspected users. Ricco was a targeted user - and he was of course caught with a brand new EPO variant.

Daaaave
July 24th, 2008, 02:32 PM
Most top level athletes are "cheating".
Any of the top-level athletes and/or their coaches, friends, etc. on this board care to take this one?



Has anyone here on this message board who does not take performance enhancing drugs ever though of being drug tested?

So if you don't volunteer to be tested you're clean, but if you do volunteer, you're dirty? Not sure I follow the logic here.

thewookiee
July 24th, 2008, 02:37 PM
A very sad day for swimming. Lucky triathletes don't have this problem.

Yea, triathletes are clean, esp. the german that won hawaii ironman...oh dang...guess that means it's not a clean sport either.

Jazz Hands
July 24th, 2008, 02:37 PM
Now of course he may have been talking strictly cycling, but you seriously have to wonder. Even if it was unintentional, all of these athletes take all kinds of supplements and dietary aids to assist their training. They are already ingesting various chemical compounds to enhance their performance, true? Whether or not the substance shows up on the "banned" list, are they not "performance-enhancing drugs"?

Whatever happened to eating a chicken sandwich, drinking a glass of V8, wolfing down a scoop of ice cream, and calling it a night? Go hard on workout days, rest on the off days. Let your body tell you what you need to do, don't chemically trick it into believing it's ready to workout for the 200th day in a row.

The following chemical substances enhance athletic performance and recovery:

Water
Carbohydrate
Fat
Protein
Vitamins

Let's ban them!

gull
July 24th, 2008, 02:40 PM
I have to side with Fort on this one.


Enough already. Why don't you two get a room?

scyfreestyler
July 24th, 2008, 02:45 PM
Official USA Swimming Statement regarding this issue. Not the Geek/Fort issue, the Jessica Hardy issue.


http://www.swimnetwork.com/blogs/blog/20080724/usa_swimming_statement_regarding_ongoing_anti_dopi ng_proceedings-1046.html;jsessionid=AF51859632F28ACE799041F06ECE5 3E4

aquageek
July 24th, 2008, 02:50 PM
Enough already. Why don't you two get a room?

We are writing poems to each other in the NSR area.

elise526
July 24th, 2008, 03:07 PM
A very sad day for swimming. Lucky triathletes don't have this problem.

Wish I could say this is the case but it would be far from the truth. Google up Nina Kraft who was the winner of the 2004 Hawaii Ironman. She was banned for two years due to a positive result for a banned substance. The good thing is that she has talked about the harm, the remorse, the shame, and why it is not worth it to take PEDs. Especially for the kids, let's hope Jessica does the same thing.

quicksilver
July 24th, 2008, 03:09 PM
Her Wikipedia page has already been revised.
Not that it matters. Most anyone can change the entries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jessica_Hardy

tjrpatt
July 24th, 2008, 04:30 PM
Wow! This is becoming a big story if Perez Hilton is blogging about it.

http://www.perezhilton.com

Paul Smith
July 24th, 2008, 04:39 PM
And another bites the dust:

Rebeca Gusmao Hit With Another Two-Year Doping Suspension -- July 24, 2008
SAO PAULO, Brazil, July 24. THE hits just keep coming. On top of the positive doping tests for Max Jaben and Jessica Hardy, Rebeca Gusmao has now received another two-year doping suspension from a positive test for testosterone in 2006 according to the Canadian Press.

According to the report, "the ban comes just months after Gusmao was suspended for testing positive for the same substance before the 2007 Pan American Games in Rio de Janeiro. Gusmao, who is appealing the first suspension, could be banned from the sport if the current rulings stand."

Gusmao is also battling allegations stemming from the Pan American Games. Advertisement

George...you may want to give her a cll and let her know that at least one person out there doesn't think she's a cheater.

KeithM
July 24th, 2008, 05:04 PM
I think one of the most interesting aspects is that she tested positive on the 4th and negative on the 6th. That implies that it is very possible to use these types of drugs without having any positive test results, random out of competition testing being the only obstacle.
A Negative test doesn't necessarily mean that no traces of the substance were found. It's possible that in the other two tests the amount was just below the "allowable" threshold and the positive was just above. Hopefully more specifics about the tests from the labs will be released.

Paul Smith
July 24th, 2008, 05:10 PM
So will this fall on the shoulders of Shubert?

Interesting post on SCAQ's Blog:
http://scaq.blogspot.com/2008/07/jessica-hardy-tested-positive-on-july_24.html

The Fortress
July 24th, 2008, 06:08 PM
The conduct of USA swimming is as inscrutable as Geek's poetry.

aquageek
July 24th, 2008, 06:14 PM
The conduct of USA swimming is as inscrutable as Geek's poetry.

That's very unkind. I don't like you anymore.

The Fortress
July 24th, 2008, 06:18 PM
I don't like you anymore.

That's very unkind. I don't like Jessica Hardy anymore.

ande
July 24th, 2008, 08:15 PM
kirk's comments
http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=8805

gull
July 24th, 2008, 08:30 PM
Stanford women's coach Lea Maurer, who coaches Kirk, said her standout breaststroker could petition the U.S. Olympic Committee and the International Olympic Committee, but said the possibility of being added to the U.S. team "is most unlikely."


Another drawback is that Kirk is in Western Ireland. She and her boyfriend are vacationing on Achill Island in a house "that has no address, just a few distant neighbors and their 12 cats" Kirk wrote in a blog dated July 21. "As the days pass, I fee the burden of my disappointment less and less," she wrote. "It is by no means lighter. Instead, it's as if the exercise of carrying it and not collapsing under its weight has made me stronger . . . I hoped that Ireland could heal me and I left California shortly after I ran away from Trials . . . Missing making the Team this summer has crushed parts of me."

Now that is sad.

Thrashing Slug
July 24th, 2008, 08:31 PM
"USA Swimming now can only add swimmers to the events vacated by Hardy from the available pool of talent already on the squad."

Who sets that rule? Seems like a stupid rule. It seems more logical and more fair to automatically bump up the next highest finisher.

hofffam
July 24th, 2008, 08:45 PM
kirk's comments
http://www.paloaltoonline.com/news/show_story.php?id=8805

Kirk's comments are not related to Jessica Hardy. Tara's comments are from her blog - which express her OT disappointment during her trip in Ireland.

Thrashing Slug
July 24th, 2008, 08:45 PM
So will this fall on the shoulders of Shubert?

Interesting post on SCAQ's Blog:
http://scaq.blogspot.com/2008/07/jessica-hardy-tested-positive-on-july_24.html


Son of a :censor:!! They had plenty of warning, and chose to do nothing about it. Meanwhile two qualified swimmers who put everything they had into Trials will be denied entry to the games. All because the bureaucrats were too cowardly to face the truth. :mad:

SwimStud
July 24th, 2008, 08:49 PM
Fort, I'm sorry you have to deal with an idol's fall. It just seems that too often heroes ultimately let you down. It's why I try to take them with a grain of salt.

I'm not saying you or Geek are wrong to centre around swimming; you know how I feel beyond how I swim or my friends swim; I'm not particularly vested in anyone else's swimming--and very likely nobody is particulalry vested in mine least of all Olympic athletes. I'll give genuine kudos when the opportunities arise but it's impossible to track everyone and I'm not a big hero-worshipper anyhow.

scyfreestyler
July 24th, 2008, 09:31 PM
Stanford women's coach Lea Maurer, who coaches Kirk, said her standout breaststroker could petition the U.S. Olympic Committee and the International Olympic Committee, but said the possibility of being added to the U.S. team "is most unlikely."


Another drawback is that Kirk is in Western Ireland. She and her boyfriend are vacationing on Achill Island in a house "that has no address, just a few distant neighbors and their 12 cats" Kirk wrote in a blog dated July 21. "As the days pass, I fee the burden of my disappointment less and less," she wrote. "It is by no means lighter. Instead, it's as if the exercise of carrying it and not collapsing under its weight has made me stronger . . . I hoped that Ireland could heal me and I left California shortly after I ran away from Trials . . . Missing making the Team this summer has crushed parts of me."

Now that is sad.


It sure is. In fact, I posted a link to the same material and made the same remark earlier today in this very thread. Perhaps my perspective is skewed but it seems to me that this could be the worst part of the whole Hardy doping incident. Read that blog and then put yourself in Tara's shoes...knowing that you actually qualified for the team but will not be given a chance to swim.

Sam Perry
July 24th, 2008, 10:11 PM
It sure is. In fact, I posted a link to the same material and made the same remark earlier today in this very thread. Perhaps my perspective is skewed but it seems to me that this could be the worst part of the whole Hardy doping incident. Read that blog and then put yourself in Tara's shoes...knowing that you actually qualified for the team but will not be given a chance to swim.

Ask anyone on the 1980 Olympic Team how it feels, I am sure they could tell you.

scyfreestyler
July 24th, 2008, 10:35 PM
Ask anyone on the 1980 Olympic Team how it feels, I am sure they could tell you.

I don't know any of them, but you are probably right.

Paul Smith
July 25th, 2008, 09:28 AM
Question of the day....others who have tested positive for this substance received two year bans and their coaches received one year bans...is Salo sidelined for a year?

aquageek
July 25th, 2008, 09:34 AM
I woke up this morning to an NPR story on Hardy. It's haunting my every waking moment, literally now.

Leonard Jansen
July 25th, 2008, 10:08 AM
Question of the day....others who have tested positive for this substance received two year bans and their coaches received one year bans...is Salo sidelined for a year?

For the coaches that were banned, was it because of supplying, knowingly ignoring the athlete's usage (but not supplying), or merely association with the banned athlete?

-LBJ

quicksilver
July 25th, 2008, 10:14 AM
She was interviewed on the news this morning. Didn't seem at all emotional or outraged by the fact that her test came in negative...and she insists she's innocent.

She made a very lame statement on how she couldn't spell what they found in her system...and how she called her lawyer right after speaking with her parents.

psal137
July 25th, 2008, 10:36 AM
where was the interview??

Daaaave
July 25th, 2008, 10:47 AM
She was interviewed on the news this morning. Didn't seem at all emotional or outraged by the fact that her test came in negative...and she insists she's innocent.

She made a very lame statement on how she couldn't spell what they found in her system...and how she called her lawyer right after speaking with her parents.

So you've used your psychological profiling skills to determine malicious intent. Nicely done! Case closed. Move on, everyone, nothing more to see here.

Professing innocence obviously means she's hiding something. And only guilty people use lawyers for pete's sake.

I, for one, knew this bubbly blonde was going to stop at nothing to achieve her evil plan from the moment she burst onto the scene as a wide-eyed teenager. It's about time someone shone a light into the dark abyss of her 21-year old soul.

</sarcasm>

Yes, she tested positive and will have to abide by whatever outcome the process dictates from here. But that is separate from whether this was a horrible plan or horrible mistake.

Rain Man
July 25th, 2008, 10:50 AM
The following chemical substances enhance athletic performance and recovery:

Water
Carbohydrate
Fat
Protein
Vitamins

Let's ban them!

OK. This is why I stopped posting on this board years ago - because of people who have to make comments like this. Read my post and respond to the substance in it. I talked about the over-the-counter supplements that the athletes take, which are in effect "performance-enhancing". I tried to impress upon the readers that it would be most sensible to returning to a diet that consists of - gasp - food!

Quote from David Salo: "I believe this was an inadvertent consumption of a banned substance and I have urged Jessica to have any supplement, vitamin, etc. that she has consumed to be tested for purity... Having said that, in 30 years of coaching I have never encouraged and have generally discouraged my athletes of taking supplements of any kind."

The most sensible thing I've heard out of a coach about supplements to date. They aren't regulated well, and an athlete should be able to eat a well-balanced butritious diet without resorting to manufactured compounds. If this was indeed an accidental intake of a banned stimulant due to poor manufacturing oversight, it's a shame, but the responsibility rests on the swimmer and anyone who encouraged her decision to turn to supplements.

ViveBene
July 25th, 2008, 10:54 AM
Try this:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92905054&ft=1&f=1055

(Haven't listened myself, but it is supposed to be the NPR interview.)
(Edit: Now I've listened: she is not interviewed; her lawyer makes some remarks.)

where was the interview??

quicksilver
July 25th, 2008, 11:20 AM
So you've used your psychological profiling skills to determine malicious intent. Nicely done! Case closed. Move on, everyone, nothing more to see here.

Professing innocence obviously means she's hiding something. And only guilty people use lawyers for pete's sake.

I, for one, knew this bubbly blonde was going to stop at nothing to achieve her evil plan from the moment she burst onto the scene as a wide-eyed teenager. It's about time someone shone a light into the dark abyss of her 21-year old soul.

</sarcasm>

Yes, she tested positive and will have to abide by whatever outcome the process dictates from here. But that is separate from whether this was a horrible plan or horrible mistake.

Good point. Blond hair blue eyed people are incapable of devising sinister plots to shine in Olympic glory. Insert sarcasm.
When they air the interview on YouTube...you can also be the judge.

No tears, no protests, nothing.
Calling the lawyer? Not a sign of guilt, but the first plan of defense.

Apparently the test results are very sketchy, and Tonya Harding was behind all of this.

scyfreestyler
July 25th, 2008, 11:37 AM
Good point. Blond hair blue eyed people are incapable of devising sinister plots to shine in Olympic glory. Insert sarcasm.
When they air the interview on YouTube...you can also be the judge.

No tears, no protests, nothing.
Calling the lawyer? Not a sign of guilt, but the first plan of defense.

Apparently the test results are very sketchy, and Tonya Harding was behind all of this.

I think calling a lawyer in a case like this just makes good sense...guilty or innocent.

SwimStud
July 25th, 2008, 11:42 AM
Yes, she tested positive and will have to abide by whatever outcome the process dictates from here. But that is separate from whether this was a horrible plan or horrible mistake.

/sarcasm on
Daaaave this is the wrong crowd for that kind of reason and detracted emotion. Here "horrible mistakes" are merely signalling incorrectly in traffiic, or not calling your Mother on Mother's day etc Doping and the like is justification for being grouped with murderers and rapists.

Be assured, this is an absolute planned heresy by Jessica to bring down the USA swim program. Don't be surprised if it comes out that she's a sleeper for Al Qaeda or something to boot.
/sarcasm off

I see it a bit like you, that she messed up and has to pay the price, but the "Pitchfork n Blazing Torch Ustashe" trip is a bit much.

I am not sad that she got caught--it's a good thing. I am not feeling sad for her because she's been booted (unless something shows this is not her doing). I think it is sad that people choose to do this type of thing, because the don't see the bigger picture of their health and other peoples situation, and yes I feel very sad for others that miss out because of it.

Self centeredness is at the heart of most offices and work places in the race for promotion and gain, some is malicious and nasty, and some just "rational self interest," why is Sports supposed to be any different? That's the American/Capitalist way--you can't expect everyone to worry about those in their destructive wake. That's the deal, but you have the same chance to do it yourself. The "screw you" attitude is especially rampant in the NE, and that's just driving to the train or office, or a blooming yard sale.

I respect and like most of the outraged posters here, I feel for them if they've been a victim of this sort of thing, or just dislike it on principal. I just can't quite reconcile some of the stances with the situation. She'll be punished and rightly so, but put it in perspective. Increase the financial penalty on her; have Tara Kirk sue her, fine; ban dopers for good, that's appropriate.

As for sitting in judgement, think back to college years, you ever do something really stupid but not get caught? Ever get behind the wheel just a tiny bit over the limit or that sort of thing. If it wasn't you I bet you know a friend that did, ready to have them suffer the severe penalties? Young people do reckless and short sighted things, some don't it's the same old story.

If it was any of your kids; I'd take the same stance; they have to face the music but it's not for me to dictate what the punishment is.

She's only 21, the same 21 as some guys and girls get killed in Iraq/Afghanistan. I shake my head and think they're just kids. Not "they're grown adults, they knew the risks, it's their lookout."

chowmi
July 25th, 2008, 11:48 AM
How far back does the damage go? Not just Tara & Lara, but what about the girls that got 17th in prelims, 9th in semi's? There's always that chance for the outside smoker.

I am happy for Dara. I'm going to wear my TORRES cap. I hope her coach is doing ok. Sounds really scary.

aquageek
July 25th, 2008, 11:52 AM
Stud - where you've gone off the tracks with your assertions is saying she's a dumb, naive 21 year old. In order for her to obtain the level that she's currently at she has probably been at the elite level since at least age 13 and probably in the pool since many years before that. She also went to school on a swimming scholarship, no small feat there. She has known for at least a half decade not to do drugs and yet with all that knowledge she has decided to do so.

The point is she is not dumb nor naive. If all this plays out that she is a doper she has done a very calculated, educated thing strictly for her advantage. The fact that she only tested positive once leads me to believe her program was well run (almost) and designed for both performance and non-detection.

mctrusty
July 25th, 2008, 11:55 AM
As for sitting in judgement, think back to college years, you ever do something really stupid but not get caught? Ever get behind the wheel just a tiny bit over the limit or that sort of thing. If it wasn't you I bet you know a friend that did, ready to have them suffer the severe penalties? Young people do reckless and short sighted things, some don't it's the same old story.


I never did anything really stupid back during the invincible years, ages 16-23.

At least, not according to the public record.

scyfreestyler
July 25th, 2008, 12:00 PM
/sarcasm on
Daaaave this is the wrong crowd for that kind of reason and detracted emotion. Here "horrible mistakes" are merely signalling incorrectly in traffiic, or not calling your Mother on Mother's day etc Doping and the like is justification for being grouped with murderers and rapists.

Be assured, this is an absolute planned heresy by Jessica to bring down the USA swim program. Don't be surprised if it comes out that she's a sleeper for Al Qaeda or something to boot.
/sarcasm off

I see it a bit like you, that she messed up and has to pay the price, but the "Pitchfork n Blazing Torch Ustashe" trip is a bit much.

I am not sad that she got caught--it's a good thing. I am not feeling sad for her because she's been booted (unless something shows this is not her doing). I think it is sad that people choose to do this type of thing, because the don't see the bigger picture of their health and other peoples situation, and yes I feel very sad for others that miss out because of it.

Self centeredness is at the heart of most offices and work places in the race for promotion and gain, some is malicious and nasty, and some just "rational self interest," why is Sports supposed to be any different? That's the American/Capitalist way--you can't expect everyone to worry about those in their destructive wake. That's the deal, but you have the same chance to do it yourself. The "screw you" attitude is especially rampant in the NE, and that's just driving to the train or office, or a blooming yard sale.

I respect and like most of the outraged posters here, I feel for them if they've been a victim of this sort of thing, or just dislike it on principal. I just can't quite reconcile some of the stances with the situation. She'll be punished and rightly so, but put it in perspective. Increase the financial penalty on her; have Tara Kirk sue her, fine; ban dopers for good, that's appropriate.

As for sitting in judgement, think back to college years, you ever do something really stupid but not get caught? Ever get behind the wheel just a tiny bit over the limit or that sort of thing. If it wasn't you I bet you know a friend that did, ready to have them suffer the severe penalties? Young people do reckless and short sighted things, some don't it's the same old story.

If it was any of your kids; I'd take the same stance; they have to face the music but it's not for me to dictate what the punishment is.

She's only 21, the same 21 as some guys and girls get killed in Iraq/Afghanistan. I shake my head and think they're just kids. Not "they're grown adults, they knew the risks, it's their lookout."

I hear you Stud.

If PED use equates to "Screw you! Your life should be ruined forever!", then what would a DUI equate to? Death sentence? Drawn and quartered?
:dunno:

The Fortress
July 25th, 2008, 12:02 PM
Is a drug like clenbuterol manufactured in the same plant as supplements?

Stud, my life is centered around swimming (and running) because those are the sports of choice in the Fort house. Its not hero worship; its practices and meets -- they're rather time consuming.

The forum would be dull without posts like Gull's.

SwimStud
July 25th, 2008, 12:03 PM
Stud - where you've gone off the tracks with your assertions is saying she's a dumb, naive 21 year old. In order for her to obtain the level that she's currently at she has probably been at the elite level since at least age 13 and probably in the pool since many years before that. She also went to school on a swimming scholarship, no small feat there. She has known for at least a half decade not to do drugs and yet with all that knowledge she has decided to do so.

The point is she is not dumb nor naive. If all this plays out that she is a doper she has done a very calculated, educated thing strictly for her advantage. The fact that she only tested positive once leads me to believe her program was well run (almost) and designed for both performance and non-detection.

Geek I'm not saying she's dumb or naive that she missed the message, just that she's dumb, naive, arrogant, cocky about life like many 21 year olds. I know guys with academic creds out the wazzoo but they are dumb as god knows what when it comes to common sense and social behaviour.

I am in no way defending what she did or condoning it. If it reads that way I can't stress enough that's not what I mean. I don't feel sorry for her, she's been told enough as you point out, but kids still do stupid things, and wake up after. Sure a bit of sincere contrition here by her might be a good thing--at least some apology to Tara Kirk. I'm not playing devil's advocate; it looks bad, but there could be a mitigating circumstance, we'll see. I won't be saying "See I told you so" if something clears her name.

By example do you think Phelps never knew not to drink and drive? He actually put lives at risk. I just think the punishment should fit the crime, let's lock up the real criminals and keep athletes to bans and loss of earnings, civil prosectuton etc. On that, yeah I'd be more comfortable seeing MP imprisoned for what he did, over a doper being locked up, but I don't wish it--he was a kid. Hopefully he learned from it.

SwimStud
July 25th, 2008, 12:07 PM
Is a drug like clenbuterol manufactured in the same plant as supplements?

Stud, my life is centered around swimming (and running) because those are the sports of choice in the Fort house. Its not hero worship; its practices and meets -- they're rather time consuming.

The forum would be dull without posts like Gull's.

Fort, I apologised for how that appeared it was not worded to offend those who centre around swimming, you can beat me on the toes with your MF at Zones in retribution. You said hero first though, I know you're not praying to the altar with candles but yeah kids do look up to them, but I don't. I sympathise with your explaining it, but then it's a great lesson for why it's not worth it. It will catch up with you.

ScarletSwimmer
July 25th, 2008, 12:14 PM
Stud - where you've gone off the tracks with your assertions is saying she's a dumb, naive 21 year old. In order for her to obtain the level that she's currently at she has probably been at the elite level since at least age 13 and probably in the pool since many years before that. She also went to school on a swimming scholarship, no small feat there. She has known for at least a half decade not to do drugs and yet with all that knowledge she has decided to do so.

The point is she is not dumb nor naive. If all this plays out that she is a doper she has done a very calculated, educated thing strictly for her advantage. The fact that she only tested positive once leads me to believe her program was well run (almost) and designed for both performance and non-detection.

She can't be dumb or naive but I don't think adults her age are necessarily known for their judgment either. I see and hear of many college age adults using phenomenally bad judgment with respect to cheating.

I'm not excusing her or feeling sorry for her; I am glad she got caught and hope she is penalized to the fullest because of the grief she's caused in a myriad of arenas - but I'm not ready to vilify her either.

The Fortress
July 25th, 2008, 12:14 PM
Any decision to take drugs is calculated.

blondes can be evil, of course. I wish she hadn't feigned lack of an ability to do basic phonetic spelling.

SwimStud
July 25th, 2008, 12:19 PM
Any decision to take drugs is calculated.



In her decision regarding PED's it would be. Thoguh it could be calculated as "nobody is going to find out" that's where the dumb, cocky, naivete comes in.
Blondes are evil, FACT.
Brunettes are vindictive, FACT.
Redheds are fiery, FACT.


Hatemail to: SwimStud, c/o USMS forums....

;) I'm joking ladies...just figure thread could use a little levity. Now you can villify me....

LindsayNB
July 25th, 2008, 12:22 PM
In the "Why do they do it?" vein I recall seeing several news articles about the high rate of cheating in academics, so a lack of rational evaluation of consequences doesn't seem to be confined to athletes.

aquageek
July 25th, 2008, 12:25 PM
By example do you think Phelps never knew not to drink and drive?

My views on that topic got me in trouble b/c I didn't give him any slack on that either.

Also, if your only thought about whether to do something is whether you will or won't get caught, you are sorely lacking a moral compass. I recently used that thought process while running red lights on the way to the pool at 5 am and Johnny Law had a different opinion of my behavior.

elise526
July 25th, 2008, 12:30 PM
In her decision regarding PED's it would be. Thoguh it could be calculated as "nobody is going to find out" that's where the dumb, cocky, naivete comes in.
Blondes are evil, FACT.
Brunettes are vindictive, FACT.
Redheds are fiery, FACT.


Hatemail to: SwimStud, c/o USMS forums....

;) I'm joking ladies...just figure thread could use a little levity. Now you can villify me....

The nice thing is we can change our hair color anytime depending on the mood that we are in. Wonder if I could use the excuse of the hair dye kit if I tested positive for a banned substance?

SwimStud
July 25th, 2008, 12:35 PM
The nice thing is we can change our hair color anytime depending on the mood that we are in. Wonder if I could use the excuse of the hair dye kit if I tested positive for a banned substance?

Who's performance are you trying to enhance! They've got a pill for that!
i'm sure you're lovely how you are ;)

Besides an old man once advised his.grandson: "Johnny, Marry a Redhead; they don't change the colour of their hair! Never trust a woman who changes the colour of her hair!"

Geek, I know you did, at least that's consistent.

The Fortress
July 25th, 2008, 12:39 PM
In the "Why do they do it?" vein I recall seeing several news articles about the high rate of cheating in academics, so a lack of rational evaluation of consequences doesn't seem to be confined to athletes.

I think its more than just lack of rationality about the consequences. Its the act itself. There is an attempt to rationalize what is a calculated decision by convincing themselves that it isn't really "wrong" because others are doing it.

pwolf66
July 25th, 2008, 12:41 PM
then what would a DUI equate to? Death sentence? Drawn and quartered?
:dunno:

Um, yes. :rolleyes:

Or at least a 5 year stay in a nice prison. I have ZERO tollerance for that specific behavoir.

scyfreestyler
July 25th, 2008, 12:45 PM
Um, yes. Or at least a 5 year stay in a nice prison. I have ZERO tollerance for that specific behavoir.

Most of us probably know somebody convicted of DUI. Do we tell them screw you and I hope your life is ruined forever?

Last time I knew one, I just told him he was stupid. He agreed.

elise526
July 25th, 2008, 01:04 PM
Who's performance are you trying to enhance! They've got a pill for that!
i'm sure you're lovely how you are ;)

Besides an old man once advised his.grandson: "Johnny, Marry a Redhead; they don't change the colour of their hair! Never trust a woman who changes the colour of her hair!"

Geek, I know you did, at least that's consistent.

It's better to keep 'em guessing! Ha! We change our hair color because we CAN (Does that word sound familiar?). I've never been good enough to worry about being tested for PEDs in competition so I should have used "a swimmer" instead of "I," but didn't want to be accused of accusing anybody.

Still, look for chemicals in hair dye to be added to the excuse notebook.

scyfreestyler
July 25th, 2008, 01:33 PM
From Tara Kirk...
http://wcsnblogs.com/swimming/tarakirk/tarakirk/2008/07/25/news/

pwolf66
July 25th, 2008, 01:43 PM
Most of us probably know somebody convicted of DUI. Do we tell them screw you and I hope your life is ruined forever?

Last time I knew one, I just told him he was stupid. He agreed.

Yes, because they are taking choice out of the hands of others. Do you or I have any choice in being on the same roads as someone who is driving under the influence? Do we voluntarily give someone else the ability to kill us?

Your response is one that is typical. Oh, it wasn't that bad, they were just being 'stupid'.

You ever peeled a family of 5 out of a mangled wreck while the person who was driving the other vehicle AT 40 MPH over the speed limit ON THE WRONG SIDE of the road has some minor cuts and bruises and is drunk as a skunk? Until you have, don't feed me the 'stupid' line. Stupid is drinking that much in the first place, putting yourself in a position to be drinking and able to get behind the wheel of a MOPED much less a car is criminal.

Oh yeah, the other driver who was drunk (.27 BAC) and killed 4 of 5 family members (leaving a 4yo without parents or siblings) got 6 months probation.

scyfreestyler
July 25th, 2008, 01:54 PM
Yes, because they are taking choice out of the hands of others. Do you or I have any choice in being on the same roads as someone who is driving under the influence? Do we voluntarily give someone else the ability to kill us?

Your response is one that is typical. Oh, it wasn't that bad, they were just being 'stupid'.

You ever peeled a family of 5 out of a mangled wreck while the person who was driving the other vehicle AT 40 MPH over the speed limit ON THE WRONG SIDE of the road has some minor cuts and bruises and is drunk as a skunk? Until you have, don't feed me the 'stupid' line. Stupid is drinking that much in the first place, putting yourself in a position to be drinking and able to get behind the wheel of a MOPED much less a car is criminal.

Oh yeah, the other driver who was drunk (.27 BAC) got 6 months probation.


Dude, is it AF time or what?

I am not condoning DUI. Where did I say it was not that bad? Should I no longer be friends with people who have been convicted of DUI? All I am saying is that the system takes care of these offenders and that I am not going to be telling them that I hope their lives are ruined forever. If you can't deal with that, then so be it. I happen to have some friends who were injured by DUI drivers. One of them can't walk well to this day...20 years later. I understand the implications of driving under the influence so your preaching is completely wasted on me.

I guess you think Phelps should be executed then. Should anybody in your family ever be convicted of DUI, are you going to suggest to the judge that the death penalty seems fair?

pwolf66
July 25th, 2008, 02:07 PM
Dude, is it AF time or what?

I am not condoning DUI. Where did I say it was not that bad? Should I no longer be friends with people who have been convicted of DUI? All I am saying is that the system takes care of these offenders and that I am not going to be telling them that I hope their lives are ruined forever. If you can't deal with that, then so be it. I happen to have some friends who were injured by DUI drivers. One of them can't walk well to this day...20 years later. I understand the implications of driving under the influence so your preaching is completely wasted on me.

I guess you think Phelps should be executed then. Should anybody in your family ever be convicted of DUI, are you going to suggest to the judge that the death penalty seems fair?

Implications? What is this, deciding on plastic or paper at the checkout stand?

I guess you missed the tongue in cheek response to your earlier post. But just to make sure you get it (I also added a Smilie to help):

No, I am not in favor of the death penalty for DUI (unless a fatality was involved, then fire up Mr Sparky) but I do think that prison time is called for.

But I was responding to your ending statement about it being 'stupid', your words, not mine. Obviously you and I treat DUI completely different.

Nice Ad Hominem attack with the AF comment. How about you ditch them and actually respond to the words?

scyfreestyler
July 25th, 2008, 02:19 PM
So DUI is not stupid. What is it then, exactly? I happen to think that word describes DUI quite well.

Perhaps implications was a poor word choice. How about this, I understand the potential consequences of DUI.

As for replying to your words, here goes.

Do you or I have any choice in being on the same roads as someone who is driving under the influence? Do we voluntarily give someone else the ability to kill us?

Every time you get in your car on a public road you are taking a chance that you might be killed by a drunk driver, or a sleeping driver, or a distracted driver, etc.. So in essence, we do voluntarily give others the ability to kill us while on the road. Sad, but true.

Iwannafly
July 25th, 2008, 02:24 PM
Any decision to take drugs is calculated.



I would disagree with that, just based on personal experience.

SwimStud
July 25th, 2008, 02:26 PM
I would disagree with that, just based on personal experience.

STONER!!!:joker:

aquageek
July 25th, 2008, 02:30 PM
I would disagree with that, just based on personal experience.

Now that is funny! On the other hand, is miscalculating still calculating?

pwolf66
July 25th, 2008, 02:35 PM
Perhaps implications was a poor word choice. How about this, I understand the potential consequences of DUI.

As for replying to your words, here goes.

Do you or I have any choice in being on the same roads as someone who is driving under the influence? Do we voluntarily give someone else the ability to kill us?

Every time you get in your car on a public road you are taking a chance that you might be killed by a drunk driver, or a sleeping driver, or a distracted driver, etc.. So in essence, we do voluntarily give others the ability to kill us while on the road. Sad, but true.

Yes, there is an assumption of risk anytime we leave our house. But having someone increase that level of risk for everyone else thru thier criminal actions is unacceptable.

Paul Smith
July 25th, 2008, 02:36 PM
More on Salo's situation, note only did he coach Hardy but also Kicker Vencil & Ous Mellouli who both tested positive and received bans.

His response:
"I have urged Jessica to have any supplement, vitamin, etc. that she has consumed to be tested for purity," Salo said in an e-mail to the Register from Japan, where he is working with the Tunisia Olympic team.

"Having said that, in 30 years of coaching I have never encouraged and have generally discouraged my athletes of taking supplements of any kind"
http://www.newsobserver.com/1577/story/1153999-p2.html

I take that as pretty much throwing Hardy under the bus...but i guess if the 3rd swimmer you've coached has tested positive and gotten banned you might start trying to cover your own ass a little eh?

Iwannafly
July 25th, 2008, 02:44 PM
Now that is funny! On the other hand, is miscalculating still calculating?

I get fat-fingered on the calculator from time to time while I'm trying to calculate! So, I'd have to say yes, miscalculating is still calculating!

tjburk
July 25th, 2008, 03:00 PM
More on Salo's situation, note only did he coach Hardy but also Kicker Vencil & Ous Mellouli who both tested positive and received bans.

His response:
"I have urged Jessica to have any supplement, vitamin, etc. that she has consumed to be tested for purity," Salo said in an e-mail to the Register from Japan, where he is working with the Tunisia Olympic team.

"Having said that, in 30 years of coaching I have never encouraged and have generally discouraged my athletes of taking supplements of any kind"
http://www.newsobserver.com/1577/story/1153999-p2.html

I take that as pretty much throwing Hardy under the bus...but i guess if the 3rd swimmer you've coached has tested positive and gotten banned you might start trying to cover your own ass a little eh?


Definitely makes you wonder doesn't it....quite a lot of coincidence there....

ROOSTER67
July 25th, 2008, 03:17 PM
It's better to keep 'em guessing! Ha! We change our hair color because we CAN (Does that word sound familiar?). I've never been good enough to worry about being tested for PEDs in competition so I should have used "a swimmer" instead of "I," but didn't want to be accused of accusing anybody.

Still, look for chemicals in hair dye to be added to the excuse notebook.

Don't let her fool you. I've never seen red hair on her and when she did change to another color for six months, we all stopped talking to her.

Nailed!

elise526
July 26th, 2008, 10:31 AM
Has anyone heard anything about Lara Jackson's reaction to the matter involving Jessica? Is she going to petition for a place on the team?

Sam Perry
July 26th, 2008, 02:50 PM
Has anyone heard anything about Lara Jackson's reaction to the matter involving Jessica? Is she going to petition for a place on the team?

SwimmingWorld online has an interview with her on the Mornings Swim Show from Friday. Doesn't sound like she is going to do anything.

ALM
July 26th, 2008, 07:23 PM
From the New York Daily News:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/07/26/2008-07-26_swimmer_jessica_hardy_claims_doping_inno.html?p age=1

Excerpt:


...Laboratories accredited by the World Anti-Doping Agency, like the UCLA Olympic lab where Hardy's samples were apparently tested, have black-and-white criteria for positive and negative tests.

Even abnormal samples must meet the strict criteria for a "positive" reading. Technicians are trained to think like lawyers when they read the tests, because they may just end up facing Jacobs down the line.

On the other hand, samples that pass as clean but raise the suspicions of the scientists can trigger more targeted testing. The laboratories, which only see a number on the test tube, can suggest that sport authorities collect out-of-competition tests from the donor. And if they see something weird on one specific aspect of the test, they can go back to stored samples and take a closer look: In other words, "low positive" means positive because there are wide margins of error built into most testing protocols. That is the case for two of the most commonly discussed blood profiles in anti-doping science, hematocrit percentages (which often reflect endurance) and testosterone/epitestosterone ratios (which indicate steroid use).

Just last week, an expose by the BBC explored how WADA-accredited laboratories had cleared a startling number of Olympic-sport athletes for competition even though their samples had suspicious scores on the test for erythropoietin, or EPO - a notorious banned endurance-booster.

Reviewing lab documents for the BBC, prominent Danish doping expert Rasmus Damsgaard demonstrated that many athletes were probably using small doses of EPO - microdosing - gaining athletic benefit while technically beating the EPO test.

Hardy told CBS on Friday that she was in "complete shock" when anti-doping officials called her with the results of her July 4 test. "In my heart I know I'm 100 percent clean," she said, claiming to have never heard of Clenbuterol.

That may be true, but the WADA Code, now 10 years old, was built on a "strict liability" philosophy, wherein athletes are responsible for every molecule in their system, even if they have never heard ot it.

Last year, the Code was tweaked to allow a tiny measure of flexibility in enforcement when an athlete can prove he or she took something inadvertently. WADA seemed to want to offer a little lenience in cases where second-hand marijuana and innocent cough medications put careers at risk (and cost WADA huge legal fees).

But the new language hasn't been tested in a trial setting, and history indictates that WADA's definition of lenience is closer to reducing ban from two years to 18 months, rather than green-lighting a trip to the Olympics....

Stillhere
July 26th, 2008, 10:05 PM
The rules are the rules--and the testing is for ALL----you fail----you are dirty---I know people who know her well--and they say no way---YET, she tested + which makes her a doper! We have set very serious standards and when these standards are exceeded then the person tested is OUT!
Frankly, I think her coach is involved and has a very poor history with people under his guidance that testied +. That adds creditable certainty to this test. I believe she did PED and knew she did it--and like the cycle guys---now claims, "Oh no, I am clean, I had no knowledge of this!" I say BS and nonsense! Guilty as charged---
Next!

TheGoodSmith
July 27th, 2008, 12:25 AM
Stillhere,

Dead on target. Couldn't agree more.


John Smith

swimdoping
July 27th, 2008, 01:58 AM
For all the talk that clenbuterol is useless for swimming, blabh, blah, blah, so Jessica must have taken by accident. Well, read this article...


http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/



Clenbuterol is a bronchodilator, not approved for use in the US. Abusers of the drug claim that it can reduce fat, as well as enhance muscle. As reported in Swim New (http://www.swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?id=6234)s, other swimmers tested positive for the drug:

Xiong Guomin (CHN), tested positive for clenbuterol (a Beta-2 agonist) in an out-of-competition test on March 8, 1999, and was banned for two years in 1999. The Chinese Swimming Associated imposed a ban of one year on his coach, Xu Huiqin, who featured in the news broken by SwimNews this week (http://www.swimnews.com/News/displayStory.jhtml?action=get&id=6224).
Wei Wang (CHN) tested positive for clenbuterol (Beta-2 agonist) in an out-of-competition test on the same day as Xiong Guomin and was banned for two years. The Chinese Swimming Associated imposed a ban of one year on his coach, Cheng Zhi and extended the swimmer's ban to three years.
Ying Shan (CHN) tested positive for clenbuterol in a Chinese Swimming Assoication doping control on January 31, 2002.

quicksilver
July 27th, 2008, 09:48 AM
No Olympics For U.S. Swimmer

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4597894270135730914&q=jessica+hardy+the+early+show&ei=YnyMSKqjF5DuqwKnv5G2CA&hl=en

FlyQueen
July 27th, 2008, 04:20 PM
I'm still giving her the benefit of doubt. The negative-positive-negative results are strange ...

Chris Stevenson
July 27th, 2008, 05:20 PM
I'm still giving her the benefit of doubt. The negative-positive-negative results are strange ...

It probably means that she was near the threshold to trigger a positive result. They set the threshold fairly high enough to guard against too many false positives and to be able to make a good court case (beyond a reasonable doubt, and all that). This is also the reason they also need a positive result from the B sample.

A negative result does not mean the absence of all traces of PEDs in the sample. Think about testing blood alcohol levels: just because one isn't above the legal intoxication limit doesn't mean the person didn't have any drinks.

I assume all the proper analytical protocols were followed (if they weren't, I don't think we would have gotten to this point), so there is no question in my mind that she had the PED in her system.

How it got there -- accidental, intentional, with the coach's blessing, whatever -- is another story and maybe isn't relevant anyway.

Jazz Hands
July 27th, 2008, 05:51 PM
It probably means that she was near the threshold to trigger a positive result.

Exactly. She was taking clen at full dose before the meet, and miscaculated when she had to stop taking it.

pwolf66
July 27th, 2008, 06:13 PM
Exactly. She was taking clen at full dose before the meet, and miscaculated when she had to stop taking it.

Well, if that WAS the case, then I would think the first test, from a sample collected around the 1st of July would have been positive, not the 2nd sample collected around the 4th of July. The negative-positive-negative aspect of this is a little disturbing. Not impossible nor even improbable but just disturbing.

pdjang
July 28th, 2008, 02:32 PM
The NYTimes reports that Gymnast Hamm withdraws from the Olympic Team.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/29/sports/olympics/29hamm.html?ref=sports

What amazes me is that is that the US Gymnastics Organization 1) will replace him (!) with one of three (!) alternates.

"One of the three alternates – Alexander Artemev, Raj Bhavsar and David Durante – will now become an Olympic team member, pending decision by the men’s gymnastics selection committee. "

While the circumstances are different, why doesn't US Swimming name alternates?

Clearly the selection procedures for the US Olympic Swimming Team need to be reformed!

There has been a lot of traffic on the Hardy/Kirk/Jackson issue, but can we translate this energy into a positive action that will impact future Olympic swimming teams?

Philipp

knelson
July 28th, 2008, 02:40 PM
While the circumstances are different, why doesn't US Swimming name alternates?

I would say the primary reason is they don't really have to. If someone withdraws or is forced to withdraw there are enough people already on the team to fill the spots vacated by the withdrawing athlete. The gymnastics team only has six athletes and I believe the team event requires all six to compete.

ALM
July 28th, 2008, 11:42 PM
There is a TON of information on the USA Swimming web site about "dietary supplements". This is one good publication:

Dietary Supplements
A Comprehensive Guide for Swim Coaches
http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/_Rainbow/Science%20&%20Technology%20Research%20Grants/6f5579bc-6f6c-45d5-b59c-11e495c152fe/Dietary%20Supplements%20Guide%2005%20Dec%2015.pdf

Check out the "Yellow-Orange-Red" chart on Page 9. And the inteview with Kicker Vencill on Page 10.


USA Swimming also has a Supplements database:
http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=847&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en

(or www.usaswimming.org >> Coaches >> Nutrition >> Dietary Supplements)


They also make this statement:


http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabId=532&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en
Take at Your Own Risk
Substances that fall under the category of "Take at Your Own Risk" include supplements and herbal products. Because these substances are not regulated by the FDA and may contain substances not identified on the list of ingredients, they are considered to be "Take at Your Own Risk". If an athlete tests positive for a prohibited substance consumed in a supplement, the athlete will be subject to sanctions. Athletes are responsible for what they choose to consume, and must be aware that the consumption of any substance that is included in this category places them at risk of a positive drug test.

Please call the USADA Drug Reference Line at 1.800.233.0393 prior to purchasing any product.


And the USADA has an online drug reference database where you can put in a drug name and it will tell you whether it is banned for athletes:

http://www.usantidoping.org/dro/

(Just for the Smiths, I did a search on their drug of choice. Results here:)
http://www.usantidoping.org/dro/search/status.aspx?BrandId=2323&UserTypeId=1&SportId=38&DisciplineId=-1

ALM
July 28th, 2008, 11:50 PM
This is also from the USA Swimming publication I mentioned in the previous post:



Why should we be concerned about taking supplements or recommending them to our swimmers?

Despite the efforts of the FDA to regulate the supplement industry, there have been far too many cases of product contamination, many of which are affecting our sport and our athletes’ ability to feel comfortable with their decisions. Below are just a handful of examples.

--Nearly 20% of over-the-counter food supplements found to contain Nandrolone (a prohibited substance); No label warnings. The Times, September 20, 2001

--Ginseng products from a local health food store contain marker compounds in amounts different from label; Significant product-to-product variability. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 73:1101-1106, 2001

--Unusual or unidentifiable ingredients in supplements advertised in bodybuilding and health magazines. Sports Medicine

--Two “mental enhancers” contain caffeine and ephedrine; neither is clearly declared on the labelor declared at all. International Journal of Sport Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism 11:258-263, 2001

--Researchers detect testosterone and various forms of androstenedione and 19-norandrostenedion/diol in Chrysin, Tribulus Terrestris and Guarana. Deutsche Zeitschrift fur Sportmedezin 51:378-382, 2000

--Norwegian weightlifter tests positive for Nandrolone 2 weeks before the Sydney Olympics and suspended for 6 months; Tests showed the supplement contained substances not listed on the label. USA Today - June 18, 2001

--French sprinter tests positive at World Championships; Told French media his food supplement did not indicate it contained the banned substance nandrolone. "Naturally, nandrolone wasn't mentioned on the wrapper," he said. "I realized I might be lacking in magnesium and iron. I was
trying to make up for this shortage." CNN SI.com - August 29, 2001

LindsayNB
July 29th, 2008, 08:17 AM
Perhaps someone familiar with the various asthma meds can check what the database has to say about them?

aquageek
July 29th, 2008, 08:28 AM
(Just for the Smiths, I did a search on their drug of choice. Results here:)
http://www.usantidoping.org/dro/search/status.aspx?BrandId=2323&UserTypeId=1&SportId=38&DisciplineId=-1

Now that's funny, even in Costa Rica.

blainesapprentice
July 29th, 2008, 08:40 AM
The NYTimes reports that Gymnast Hamm withdraws from the Olympic Team.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/29/sports/olympics/29hamm.html?ref=sports

What amazes me is that is that the US Gymnastics Organization 1) will replace him (!) with one of three (!) alternates.

"One of the three alternates – Alexander Artemev, Raj Bhavsar and David Durante – will now become an Olympic team member, pending decision by the men’s gymnastics selection committee. "

While the circumstances are different, why doesn't US Swimming name alternates?

Clearly the selection procedures for the US Olympic Swimming Team need to be reformed!

There has been a lot of traffic on the Hardy/Kirk/Jackson issue, but can we translate this energy into a positive action that will impact future Olympic swimming teams?

Philipp

Well even Morgan Hamm (Paul's twin brother) is under scrutiny for these upcoming olympics because he tested positive for a substance. This substance however, i forget at the moment is like cortisone and is not illegal if he is receiving therapy for whatever joint he is having the injection for...but he was not. I think he's gonna clear and be able to compete because it really seems like it was an oversight between his doctors and him but, still...that would be such a blow to the Us gymnast teams...losing Paul and Morgan right before the Olympics.

NotVeryFast
August 6th, 2008, 11:15 AM
Well, if that WAS the case, then I would think the first test, from a sample collected around the 1st of July would have been positive, not the 2nd sample collected around the 4th of July. The negative-positive-negative aspect of this is a little disturbing. Not impossible nor even improbable but just disturbing.
There is nothing strange at all about the sequence of -ve, +ve, -ve tests. The detection window for Clenbuterol is approx 4 days. There were more than 4 days between tests 1 and 3. It is absolutely possible that she took a dose after test 1, and it had cleared in time for test 3, but not in time for test 2.