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rtodd
July 27th, 2008, 05:58 PM
Does anyone have this problem?

I need to make a super effort to get a foot on the pad. I'm usually under it. If I adjust to touch it, I am not pushing off at the right angle. I just have a deeper turn than most.

I guess I need to try and fix this because getting splits is important.

Any thoughts?

pwolf66
July 27th, 2008, 06:04 PM
Does anyone have this problem?

I need to make a super effort to get a foot on the pad. I'm usually under it. If I adjust to touch it, I am not pushing off at the right angle. I just have a deeper turn than most.

I guess I need to try and fix this because getting splits is important.

Any thoughts?


Is this happening in all your events or just with Freestyle?

rtodd
July 27th, 2008, 06:40 PM
Only freestyle.

pwolf66
July 27th, 2008, 07:00 PM
Only freestyle.

Sounds like you might not be getting your heels over fast enough and as a result you sink down as you turn. Try to work on throwing your heels over faster. Work on this in the middle of the pool. Think - heels over knees over hips over shoulders

Charge
July 27th, 2008, 08:09 PM
I've always taught swimmers that a flip turn is 2 separate but fluidly connected actions. The first is like a strong, upside-down crunch, so that your stomach ends up against your thighs, you legs still pointing back to where you just came from. You can help initiate this with your last stroke by reaching far in front of you as possible and using the catch to launch your body down into that position. The second action is to "undo" that crunch by throwing you legs to the wall, extending them as they go. If you've done the first part correctly your legs should hit the wall in line with you body in the correct position.

rtodd
July 27th, 2008, 08:16 PM
to me it seems like to hit the touchpad you need to be too shallow.

Are all pads the same depth?

pwolf66
July 27th, 2008, 08:47 PM
to me it seems like to hit the touchpad you need to be too shallow.

Are all pads the same depth?

Touchpads should extend to a depth of 24 inches. I believe that FINA mandates 36 inches but I'm not 100% certain. That should be plenty deep enough to allow you to get your feet on the pad.

I had issues with the touchpads at SCY Nats this year where I was hitting the bottom of the pad with half my foot on and half off the pad and it was hurting like heck. I think those might have only been 24 inch depth ones. So I shallowed up my turn a little and that took care of it.

Again, it sounds like you have a slow flip and with a slow flip is a tendency to sink lower in the water as you flip. Any chance you could get someone to video your turns? And if you are going so deep, where do you breakout off your turns?

david.margrave
July 28th, 2008, 12:29 AM
The same thing has happened to me a few times. My turns on distance events aren't that great. On sprints I get turned around in a hurry though. There is the size of the touch pad too. Some are taller than others. I am sloppy and also twist while turning.

ande
July 28th, 2008, 05:37 AM
you're wasting a lot of effort
you're crashing your feet way into the water before hitting the wall
it's WAY SLOWER TO DO IT THAT WAY
learn to turn shallower
concentrate on hitting the wall correctly on every turn


Does anyone have this problem?

I need to make a super effort to get a foot on the pad. I'm usually under it. If I adjust to touch it, I am not pushing off at the right angle. I just have a deeper turn than most.

I guess I need to try and fix this because getting splits is important.

Any thoughts?

Blackbeard's Peg
July 28th, 2008, 11:16 AM
if you watch the pros, there is no wasting time after the feet have come all the way around in the tumble - feet go on the first part of wall they can find, which is usually pretty close to the surface. They push off downwards, SDK, and come up.

hofffam
July 28th, 2008, 12:59 PM
The American way to solve this is to sue the pad manufacturers.

Surely there has been heartbreak and suffering as a result of missing the splits! :rant3:

knelson
July 28th, 2008, 01:01 PM
When you flip your body's on the surface, so if done correctly there's no way your feet should hit the pad more than 24" below the surface. I would guess most people's feet hits the pads somewhere around a foot or so underwater. Paul may be correct, your turn technique might be causing your body to sink as you flip. Are your legs totally out of the water when they do the somersault, or are they partially submerged? They should be out of the water. As someone else said, when you push off, you should aim slightly downward, otherwise you'll be a little shallow.

Here's a video of Ian Thorpe's turn. You can see his feet hit pretty much right in the center of the pad: http://youtube.com/watch?v=dWVTnPGIm9Y

rtodd
July 28th, 2008, 08:34 PM
I guess I am not tucking enough. I will work on it. It is a real problem for me. I am ignoring it in practice and then at meets I screw it all up.

I guess I don't mind a deeper turn in practice because I can push off and get under the incoming wave. Maybe this is costing me some time.

My LCM 50 is 30.26 and my SCM 50 is 29.78. Does this reaveal a crummy turn?

ande
July 29th, 2008, 10:45 AM
there's your problem
I am ignoring it in practice
perfect it in practice
you've got a sloppy habit that's costing you

you go deeper by controlling the depth of your upper body on turns
watch what michael phelps does in the Olympic Trials unde water footage
he slightly under rotates his upper body which allows him a deeper trajectory for his push off
so he pushes off into still water instead of water moving the opposite direction he's headed

Does this reaveal a crummy turn?
YES




I guess I am not tucking enough. I will work on it. It is a real problem for me. I am ignoring it in practice and then at meets I screw it all up.

I guess I don't mind a deeper turn in practice because I can push off and get under the incoming wave. Maybe this is costing me some time.

My LCM 50 is 30.26 and my SCM 50 is 29.78. Does this reaveal a crummy turn?

pwolf66
July 29th, 2008, 11:41 AM
I guess I am not tucking enough. I will work on it. It is a real problem for me. I am ignoring it in practice and then at meets I screw it all up.

Remember, practice is to set good habits and to make them automatic. By setting a bad habit in practice, the only way to overcome that in a race is to be really concentrating on not doing it, which is a less than desirable outcome. A perfect race is one where your mind is just along for the ride. If you have to concentrate on too many things (hand position, breathing, kicking, turning, etc), you will not be relaxed and able to do your best.

My best 50yd free ever was leading off a relay. This has stuck out in my mind ever since. Immediately following my swim, all I remember is the starter's gun and then touching the wall, I remembered absolutely nothing else about the swim. My coach asked me what I did differently, was I kicking more, how was my rotation, how many strokes, etc. and I just said 'I don't recall anything'

My mind was completely along for the ride and the body did what it was trained to do in practice. That is where I am trying to get back to. and that is why it is critical to set good habits in practice so that you don't have to think about what you need to do, you can just do it.

Ian Smith
July 29th, 2008, 03:05 PM
My LCM 50 is 30.26 and my SCM 50 is 29.78. Does this reaveal a crummy turn?

I have always counted on an average spread of about 0.65 sec. between LCM & SCM with speeds of about 27 high for LCM and 27 low for SCM. (Does speed make a difference?)

I like to think my turns are OK; maybe not great but not crummy. Rob's spread of 0.48 does seem on the slow side - I cannot imagine not hitting the touchpad, however.

What spreads do others have? Just curious.

rtodd
July 29th, 2008, 08:34 PM
Ian,

According to your differential, my turn could probably be a bit better, but I think in the longer distances I am getting sloppy and lazy.

Ande, Pwolf,

You are right. Racing must be instinctual and second nature. It must be worked on in practice.

Besides my time goals for this year, My goal is to record all splits.

Ian Smith
July 30th, 2008, 04:47 PM
Out of curiosity I checked the SwimAZ.com converter to see what they used as the spread between SCM & LCM - presumedly due to the turn.

http://www.swimaz.com/tools/timeconverter/

How much the turn is worth is split Male/Female

LCM 50 Time----Female SCM Faster by:----Male SCM Faster by:

25-----------------0.70-------------------1.00
26-----------------0.73-------------------1.04
27-----------------0.76-------------------1.08
28-----------------0.79-------------------1.12
29-----------------0.82-------------------1.16
30-----------------0.84-------------------1.21

Speed counts. I guess if you are a slower swimmer, they figure the turn is a bigger benefit.

If you check their 100 conversion and divide the difference by 2 (two extra turns in SCM), the turns are not as fast. (not sure of my logic here).

Anyway, as a male, I now downgrade my turn to 'crummy'. Ande was right. (age must count; old=slow).

Ian.

pwolf66
July 30th, 2008, 04:52 PM
Not sure about the math they use on that site:

When I put in 27.07 LCM it converted to 23.82 SCY but when I put in 23.63 SCY it converted to 27.47 LCM. Weird.

knelson
July 30th, 2008, 05:24 PM
Speed counts. I guess if you are a slower swimmer, they figure the turn is a bigger benefit.

I guess this sort of makes sense. Faster swimmers will also have faster turns, but there's also an inherent benefit in the flip turn because it effectively shrinks the pool a little. Faster swimmers derive slightly less time benefit from this shrinking because they could cover that distance in less time than slower swimmers. Women on average are shorter than men, so they aren't shrinking the pool as much on turns as men, thus the substantial difference between men and women on the conversion.

That site doesn't convert 50s of other strokes, but I would suspect the difference between men and women would be slightly less in events where open turns are used (fly and breast) because height is no longer a factor in turns.

mctrusty
July 30th, 2008, 06:03 PM
I guess this sort of makes sense. Faster swimmers will also have faster turns, but there's also an inherent benefit in the flip turn because it effectively shrinks the pool a little. Faster swimmers derive slightly less time benefit from this shrinking because they could cover that distance in less time than slower swimmers. Women on average are shorter than men, so they aren't shrinking the pool as much on turns as men, thus the substantial difference between men and women on the conversion.

That site doesn't convert 50s of other strokes, but I would suspect the difference between men and women would be slightly less in events where open turns are used (fly and breast) because height is no longer a factor in turns.

If you use the converter to do 100s, it goes:

(Based on 1:00)
Male Female Diff
Free 57.78 58.50 0.72
Back 55.92 57.12 1.20
Breast 57.30 58.26 0.96
Fly 58.14 58.74 0.60

The converter just multiplies a factor by the time entered, so the differences are going to be larger when the time gets larger.

Ian Smith
July 30th, 2008, 09:29 PM
When comparing converting 50 vs 100 they do seem to take into account that there is one dive per 50 in a 50 but still only one dive on the 100 & up - i.e. there is more actual swimming as a proportion of the total distance (less diving benefit).