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TheGoodSmith
July 30th, 2008, 05:16 PM
Co-Ed championship meets ......... No thanks.

Keep the NCAA championships separate. It's part of what makes the NCAAs exciting.


http://collegeswimming.com/news/2008/jul/28/ncaa-makes-waves-new-changes/

Co-Ed ChampionshipsThe prospect of co-ed meets took two steps forward – one large, and one small. The small step was made in Division I where the committee endorsed the concept of a co-ed swimming and diving championship. The committee stopped short of fully sponsoring a proposal until such time as a suitable facility could come online. There have been discussions that the NCAA, the Indiana Sports Commission, and Indiana University-Purdue University at Indianapolis (IUPUI) could work together towards renovations to the storied IUPUI facility.


The big step forward came in Division III where a combined meet will be held in 2009. A shortage of bids for two consecutive weekends, combined with the availability of the University of Minnesota for a combined meet, led the committee to the decision.

scyfreestyler
July 30th, 2008, 05:22 PM
Serious question here, how does keeping them separate make them more exciting?

aquageek
July 30th, 2008, 05:35 PM
Do you have nothing better to do than make up stupid topics? Who really cares? If you are this bored, grow a mustache like Giambi, right on.

hofffam
July 30th, 2008, 05:37 PM
I would be more likely to travel to a NCAA championship if it were co-ed. I like watching both genders race.

So I like the direction....

TheGoodSmith
July 30th, 2008, 05:45 PM
Why make it the same format at US Nationals?

It's long enough as it is.


Actually ... I am starting a beard.

knelson
July 30th, 2008, 05:48 PM
Serious question here, how does keeping them separate make them more exciting?

Because it's such a bang-bang affair the way it is now. Finials are quick and to the point. You don't have time to get bored! Doubling the total number of events would make the meet lose that element.

elise526
July 30th, 2008, 05:54 PM
I can see what he means by exciting. The focus on one team/school being the winner at a time is better. The focus is not there if you have two teams jumping in the pool at the same time after their victory. If it is coed it is kind of like having two football games being played on the same t.v. channel at the same time - a half-screen of each game going. It would have the effect of diminishing the excitement of each game.


And besides, we women all know that you guys don't want to give up your chance to be with "just the guys."

Rob Copeland
July 30th, 2008, 06:01 PM
Anyone who attended the USA Olympic Trials (which by the way was co-ed) would likely agree that this was the most exciting/entertaining swim meet of the year.

And did anyone notice the proposed qualifying times? 42.26 in the 100 Free and 1:33.61 in the 200, just to name two. I was hoping to see Noah make an A cut, now were just hoping for B times.

TheGoodSmith
July 30th, 2008, 06:03 PM
Geek,

If you get off your lazy butt and come with me to College Station for this years NCAA championships, I will show you why it is THE most exciting meeting in the world.

I may even buy a 'round if Texas is on top.


John Smith

aquageek
July 30th, 2008, 06:07 PM
I may even buy a 'round if Texas is on top.

Do you get to sit in the VIP section if your show your tattoo or, alternatively, do you have to sit with other old dudes with gold chains and pinky rings, another sign of mis-placed old man coolness.

Word on the beard, bin Smith.

I will gladly drink free beer, even if it requires me to be nice to you.

USMSarah
July 30th, 2008, 08:00 PM
Is nothing sacred anymore?

Besides, that is a really long meet - having both squads there would just crazy! I volunteered at a mens NCAA's in the late 90's - there is a lot of tradition involved... just keep it the way it is...

Its a slow show
July 30th, 2008, 08:00 PM
Anytime you can combine the men and the woman its OK with me. Come on guys stand up for what's really important "beautiful women swimmin"!!!!! get it??EOM

SwimStud
July 30th, 2008, 09:45 PM
Anyone who attended the USA Olympic Trials (which by the way was co-ed) would likely agree that this was the most exciting/entertaining swim meet of the year.

And did anyone notice the proposed qualifying times? 42.26 in the 100 Free and 1:33.61 in the 200, just to name two. I was hoping to see Noah make an A cut, now were just hoping for B times.

Good luck to him Rob, it's not over until it's over!!!

meldyck
July 30th, 2008, 10:07 PM
John,

just rub some estrogen on your balding head. I'm sure the hair will grow back and settle this whole issue once and for all.

stillwater
July 30th, 2008, 11:36 PM
The NCAA mens meet is the most testosterone charged sporting event I have ever been to. The excitement and fervor make the Olympic Trials pale in comparison. To swim in the meet is a much greater accomplishment than to swim in the trials.

This meet is a spectale. Let women roar. Let men dance.

Keep them seperate.

LindsayNB
July 31st, 2008, 10:07 AM
I notice the NCAA meet is four days while trials are eight, depending on the facilities that could be a big difference. On the plus side, for people swimming multiple events it could mean more rest between them.

TheGoodSmith
July 31st, 2008, 10:23 AM
Rob,

Other than the truly HARDCORE or those professionally linked to the sport, there were FEW spectators that went to Olympic Trials and stayed for the whole week and watched every session. It's just too long for familys and regular viewers to cut that big of a chunk out of their lives. Doubling the format for Co-Ed reasons does not make sense from a viewers perspective. The men's and women's NCAA meets have different flavors and excitement levels. Keep it that way.

I was wondering when someone would notice the new "A" cut off times in that article. Interesting decision to make them that much harder. Are they trying to push back 98% of all the competitors to the "B" cuts ? There are only about 3-4 individuals that made the "A" cuts in many events. What is the strategy here? There will be entire teams now that only have individuals with "B" cuts next year. Almost no one can make an "A" cut now without a full taper and shave. Why would they do this?

John Smith

knelson
July 31st, 2008, 10:28 AM
Why would they do this?

In my opinion the suits are a big factor. Remember the LZR, et al were not used in the NCAA this past season. There still might not be a lot of swimmers making the A cuts, but there might be more than you would expect.

hofffam
July 31st, 2008, 10:37 AM
In my opinion the suits are a big factor. Remember the LZR, et al were not used in the NCAA this past season. There still might not be a lot of swimmers making the A cuts, but there might be more than you would expect.

The NCAA decided none of the new suits are allowed this season. No suits not available before Jan. 1 2008 are allowed. That means no LZR or Tracer. I don't know if the B70s were available before Jan. 1.

TheGoodSmith
July 31st, 2008, 10:58 AM
knelson,

I thought the suits might be the issue too, but the NCAA is not allowing them next year.

knelson
July 31st, 2008, 10:59 AM
You're right. I missed the line mentioning thet were going to extend the moratorium.

thewookiee
July 31st, 2008, 11:17 AM
I notice the NCAA meet is four days while trials are eight, depending on the facilities that could be a big difference. On the plus side, for people swimming multiple events it could mean more rest between them.

Div 1 and 3 are three day formats. Div 2 is a four day format because they have the 1000 free for both men and women.

I like the current format...separate championships. It gives the women national stage to their own for the weekend. If they go to a combine format, ESPN and the media will condense the meets even more in terms of coverage.

Paul Smith
July 31st, 2008, 11:36 AM
Actually ... I am starting a beard.

Something most middle aged balding men feeling insecure because they got their ass kicked at nationals...such as yourself...are inclined to do...along with getting tattoo's and buying old beater and/or fast/expensive cars...and avoiding rematch's in Portland.

ande
July 31st, 2008, 11:59 AM
we all know who paul's aiming at with these comments
he's smack dab in the middle of the crosshairs

you gonna take this?
defend your manhood



Something most middle aged balding men feeling insecure because they got their ass kicked at nationals...such as yourself...are inclined to do...along with getting tattoo's and buying old beater and/or fast/expensive cars...and avoiding rematch's in Portland.

TheGoodSmith
July 31st, 2008, 12:02 PM
Something most middle aged balding men feeling insecure because they got their ass kicked at nationals...such as yourself...are inclined to do...along with getting tattoo's and buying old beater and/or fast/expensive cars...and avoiding rematch's in Portland.

Note: there has to have been a "match" in order to have a "rematch".

I am selling the '57 Dodge. It was posted out on Hemmings.

I am turning over a new leaf, Evil one. I have even decided to smile occasionally.

Take note.... I have begun training for my new top secret event next May.


John Smith

LindsayNB
July 31st, 2008, 12:36 PM
The NCAA decided none of the new suits are allowed this season. No suits not available before Jan. 1 2008 are allowed. That means no LZR or Tracer. I don't know if the B70s were available before Jan. 1.

The B70 suits were approved by FINA in October 2007 so this could be good for them, but I don't know the definition of "available" they are using or when the B70 was available for purchase. There is nothing on their web site news page between the Oct 15 2007 approval item and Mar 20 2008.

tjburk
July 31st, 2008, 02:27 PM
I think combining them might actually be good for both.....not much televised for either compared to other sports....maybe if they combined, the networks might be more inclined to show them......

Allen Stark
July 31st, 2008, 06:21 PM
I am all for it IF they have a combined winner(and mixed relays would be great also.) Many have been whining about the demise of mens swimming(myself included),if you have to field a coed team to be competitive it might help(or they might just cut both.)Helping mens teams would be worth the extra time,otherwise no.More important NCAAs needs to be moved so it is not up against March Madness.If the meets were early April,or even early March they'd get more coverage.

scyfreestyler
July 31st, 2008, 06:26 PM
I was wondering when someone would notice the new "A" cut off times in that article. Interesting decision to make them that much harder. Are they trying to push back 98% of all the competitors to the "B" cuts ? There are only about 3-4 individuals that made the "A" cuts in many events. What is the strategy here? There will be entire teams now that only have individuals with "B" cuts next year. Almost no one can make an "A" cut now without a full taper and shave. Why would they do this?

John Smith

From the article you posted, that I happened upon myself somehow just moments ago....

The extensive changes are meant to protect the meet from exceeding its cap, which is currently set at 281 men and 335 women. By tightening the A standard, but relaxing the difference between A and B times (4% for women, 3.5% for men), the NCAA will ensure the cap is not exceeded, without decreasing the number of participants in the meet.

TheGoodSmith
August 1st, 2008, 07:58 AM
SCYfreestyler,

We shall see if the cuts trim the meet by 4%. My hunch is that most teams will have very few "A" cuts without a full taper and shave. Entire teams may end up with nothing but "B" cuts.

LindsayNB
August 1st, 2008, 08:00 AM
Excuse my ignorance but how do the A and B cuts work? Is it like the Olympic A and B standards?

scyfreestyler
August 1st, 2008, 11:32 AM
SCYfreestyler,

We shall see if the cuts trim the meet by 4%. My hunch is that most teams will have very few "A" cuts without a full taper and shave. Entire teams may end up with nothing but "B" cuts.


I don't know much about it so I'll take your word for it.

Rob Copeland
August 1st, 2008, 12:23 PM
Excuse my ignorance but how do the A and B cuts work? Is it like the Olympic A and B standards?
Since you asked... no it is not like Olympic A & B times. The NCAA follows the simple process below to determine who is invited.

Number of Participants. The number of participants in the 2008 Division I championships cannot exceed the following limits: Men—270 participants; and women—322 participants. All swimmers and divers that are invited to the meet will be counted toward the total number of participants allowed.

Selection of Participants:

Step 1: A total of 35 divers for men and 41 divers for women will be entered in to the championships.
Step 2: All individual swimmers and all relays that have achieved “A’’ time standards will be entered in the meet.
Step 3: All events will be filled, one entry time per event, until each event has the same number of competitors up to 16 places. Any events that already exceed this number of places due to “A” qualifiers will not receive additional entrants at this time..
Step 4: One entry will be added to each individual swimming event in event order. No entrants will be added to an event that exceeds this number of places because of “A” qualifiers until all individual events even out. This process will be repeated as long as each individual event in the entire order of events can receive an additional entry and the number of total competitors will remain below the cap (270 for the men’s meet and 322 for the women’s meet). No relays will be added during this, or subsequent, steps.
Step 5: At some point, the addition of one competitor per event to the entire order of individual events will put the field over the total number of competitors cap. At this point, the remaining spaces will be allocated by comparing each events percentage (Division I championships record time for that event divided by entry time). The competitor who has the highest percentage (closest to the record) will be taken first
Step 6: If we are in compliance with the formula below (we are into the listed individual row or greater) then go on to Step 7. If we are not in compliance with the formula, then subtract 1 relay (used in Step 3) and redo the entire process. We will not accept less than 12 relays for the men’s meet or 13 relays for the women’s meet.
Men
16 relays - 26 individual rows
15 relays - 24 individual rows
14 relays - 22 individual rows
13 relays - 20 individual rows
12 relays - guaranteed
Women
16 relays - 32 individual rows
15 relays - 30 individual rows
14 relays - 28 individual rows
13 relays - guaranteed
Step 7: Enter optional entries for those individuals who are invited to the meet.
Step 8 An alternate list of qualifiers will be created by individual event row. This list will be in row order and then by percentages (calculated in Step 5) within each row. This list will be used in case a swimmer who has been invited to the championships has become ineligible or unavailable

tjburk
August 1st, 2008, 01:55 PM
Is there a reason for allowing more women then men?
Not trying to start a Title IX argument here.

CreamPuff
August 1st, 2008, 02:23 PM
Interesting. Out of 33 replies, 2 women (not including myself) responded. As a Director of Legal Affairs friend of mine used to say, "No response is the response."

The Fortress
August 1st, 2008, 08:57 PM
Interesting. Out of 33 replies, 2 women (not including myself) responded. As a Director of Legal Affairs friend of mine used to say, "No response is the response."

Fine, without having thought about it overly much, I agree with wookiee. And I'm not even a woman hater. But if there were some demonstrable benefit to combining them, I wouldn't object. Not going to pull my hair out and go bald over it.

knelson
August 2nd, 2008, 01:51 AM
Yeah, I don't really see a reason why men would be for a combined meet and women against it, or vice versa.

USMSarah
August 2nd, 2008, 04:58 PM
I think it's the comraderie that men only or women only have at meets like this. When you put men and women together - it changes things!!! It's not a bad thing, but there's tons of wonderful tradition (currently)... don't fix it if it ain't broken.

Good call on banning the suits for another year - the suits are too darn expensive.

Smith by Marriage
August 2nd, 2008, 07:39 PM
I think that John started this entire discussion because he secretly fears that one of his Longhorn buddies will actually get his ass kicked by a girl at NCAA's. Your wife made the '84 Olympic Team....I forgot which one you made. Refresh my memory.

knelson
August 3rd, 2008, 01:14 AM
Your wife made the '84 Olympic Team....I forgot which one you made. Refresh my memory.

Ooh. I think we may have a new contender for the title of "Evil Smith!"

ALM
August 3rd, 2008, 01:31 AM
I think that John started this entire discussion because he secretly fears that one of his Longhorn buddies will actually get his ass kicked by a girl at NCAA's. Your wife made the '84 Olympic Team....I forgot which one you made. Refresh my memory.

This is a candidate for "Best Post Ever on the USMS Forums"... :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Leonard Jansen
August 4th, 2008, 08:03 AM
Your wife made the '84 Olympic Team....I forgot which one you made. Refresh my memory.

Wow - castration by hedge trimming shears. I'd heard about it, but had never seen it before.

-LBJ

tjburk
August 4th, 2008, 10:06 AM
Somebody want to find this man's testicles? Somebody stole them!!!!

TheGoodSmith
August 4th, 2008, 10:14 AM
Dear Amazon Man Hater,

I made the same number of Olympic teams as your husband.

Now respond to the discussion.

Why do you feel the need to swim with the men?


John Smith

scyfreestyler
August 4th, 2008, 10:34 AM
Burdizzo in action.

Smith by Marriage
August 4th, 2008, 10:41 AM
Dear Woman Fearing People Hater,

I do not have a need to swim with the men. I just couldn't stand to sit idly by while you negligently spewed hatred toward my gender. I would be lead to believe that a thread titled "The He Man Woman Haters Club" would have actually been initiated by, in fact, a He Man. Do you have a ghost writer that might fit the bill? (John, are those your legs or are you sitting on the back of a chicken?) I never made NCAA's, so I don't even know what the time line, the warm up traffic, etc is like. I do, however, take a deep personal satisfaction ruffling your feathers and watching your blood pressure rise to dangerous levels. You know...now that I think about it, yes. I do think the men's and women's meet should be held together. The men would be great timers and could hold the womens' towels for them during the races.

Who luvs ya, Baby?;)

tjburk
August 4th, 2008, 10:46 AM
:rofl::lmao::rofl::lmao::rofl:

Smith by Marriage
August 4th, 2008, 10:49 AM
P.S. I don't know why you chose to drag Paul into this. No, he never made the Olympic Team. However, his fins are much, much larger than yours.

tjburk
August 4th, 2008, 10:50 AM
:rofl::blah::rofl::blah::rofl:

On a roll..............

TheGoodSmith
August 4th, 2008, 11:00 AM
Speaking malformed bodyparts...... How long did it take for you to get that new suit on over your mid drift?

I suggest initiating the process this week week. USMS nationals are coming up shortly.

Perhaps to speed it up your Evil half can hold the suit open while you jump from the roof ..... :-)


John Smith

Iwannafly
August 4th, 2008, 11:03 AM
Speaking malformed bodyparts...... How long did it take for you to get that new suit on over your mid drift?

I suggest initiating the process this week week. USMS nationals are coming up shortly.

Perhaps to speed it up your Evil half can hold the suit open while you jump from the roof ..... :-)


John Smith

I think John has been taking spelling lessons from a Canadian (George to be more specific):p!

Smith by Marriage
August 4th, 2008, 11:14 AM
The "mid drift" area was a breeze, seeing how I have no waist or chest. It was the thigh area that took three separate occassions, blood, sweat, and tears to conquer. But thanks for bringing it up again. I appreciate it.

TheGoodSmith
August 4th, 2008, 11:24 AM
I wannafly,

"mid drift"...... think about it.

It'll come in a few minutes.


John Smith

Paul Smith
August 4th, 2008, 11:38 AM
I wannafly,

"mid drift"...... think about it.

It'll come in a few minutes.


John Smith


I am officially staying the hell off this thread.

lefty
August 4th, 2008, 12:42 PM
When I was in college therte was quite a rivalry between the women's and men's team. The idea of having to swim at Nats with the women would have been appalling.

Thank goodness I have grown up since then.

Iwannafly
August 4th, 2008, 03:18 PM
I wannafly,

"mid drift"...... think about it.

It'll come in a few minutes.


John Smith

You're right John, I am laughing to myself because it is funny in addition to cursing myself because I let you get the better of me.


Did you see the post I left for you over in the Non-swimming Related area?