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View Full Version : Term - Front-quadrant swimming = Gobbledeegook



tomtopo
August 12th, 2008, 08:55 AM
There is not front quadrant swimming and should be dispelled as gobbledee-gook speak-ease. Every swimmer from toddler to World class swimmer uses some facsimile of all four quadrants.

Letís sort out some definitions so swimmers understand terminology. Front-quadrant swimming; it is not a style but a term. Each competitive stroke can be separated into various parts. If we use four parts or quadrants we can dissect each stroke into a front quadrant where propulsion occurs, a second quadrant where the finish or completion of the stroke occurs, a third quadrant where the recovery is initiated, and the fourth quadrant where the recovery makes the transition to the entry.
The recovery (when the arms are out of the water) may be looked at as a style where coaches see swimmer with either a straight arm or bent arm recovery and even a variance of both. The position of a swimmers body (hip rotation) while they are swimming may also be looked at as a style when swimmers are either very horizontal / flat or rolling side to side. Pulling patterns are also looked at by coaches who will notice different sculling motions as swimmer will pull faster or more pronounced toward the midline of the body and away from it. The depth of the hand as it pulls back is also another cue coaches look for when dissecting a stroke. Coaches will also look at how a swimmer sets-up their stroke in either an Early Vertical Forearm catch (over-a-barrel position) or a Straight arm catch. And last but not least, a coach will look at a swimmer tempo or timing to see when the arms and legs move and if theyíre working together effectively or not.
Janet Evanís straight arm recovery did not stop her from setting world records because when her arms where in the water she displayed effective propulsive / world class form.

LindsayNB
August 12th, 2008, 09:34 AM
Tom, I have never seen anyone claim that all swimming occurs in the front quadrant in "front quadrant swimming". Front quadrant swimming usually refers to the position of the pulling arm when the recovering hand enters the water. It can either be used as a binary yes/no term or as a matter of degree with the catch up drill being one extreme end of the spectrum. Likewise when people refer to a catch up swimming style they are usually referring to a spectrum with the catch up drill being the extreme. Aggressively trying to force your own definitions on the rest of the world is unlikely to be constructive. Everyone already knows that no one competes at the Olympics using the hand-tap catchup drill.

tomtopo
August 12th, 2008, 10:14 AM
I've used the science and terms brought to swimming by the great Doc Councilman and Ernie Maglischo, Eddie Reese, Mark Schubert, George Haines, Forbes Carlile, Bob Steele, Richard Quick, Jack Bauerle and many other proven coaches. I don't take the science of swimming lightly and when someone tries to steer a swimmer in the wrong direction, I'm going to say something. Swimming is changing all the time but basic principles of fluid dynamics must be followed. Lift forces, drag forces and how they're applied are crucial to efficient swimming. The variables that mold each swimmer into "how they swim" are many but certain variables should not be altered. When someone tells another swimmer that laying on their arm, waiting for the other arm to catch-up will make them swim FASTER (not just easier), I've got a problem with that and so should you. I'm not a know-it-all but some things simply erk me and when someone is trying to pawn-off junk-science and here as gospel, I've had enough.

Wow that felt good. Goodbye

scyfreestyler
August 12th, 2008, 10:25 AM
Man, move on with your life.

knelson
August 12th, 2008, 10:41 AM
Seriously, Tom, have you read anything anyone else has said? Front-quadrant swimming, whether you like the term or not, means the recovering arm enters the water while the pulling arm is still in the front quadrant. This means your pulling arm can be in the EVF catch position you advocate when the recovering arm enters. In fact many of the swimmers in the videos you've posted appear to swim that way, or at least very close to that.

You mention fluid mechanics, lift, drag, etc. Can we agree, then, that the goal should be to maximize propulsion while minimizing drag? I think that's what front-quadrant swimming is attempting to do. Sprinters probably shouldn't swim this way because propulsion is of paramount importance to them. A constant application of force to the water is more important to them so they're willing to accept the tradeoff of slightly more drag, but when you get to longer distances you need to be more efficient.

JimRude
August 12th, 2008, 11:16 AM
Man, move on with your life.

... amen to that...

geochuck
August 12th, 2008, 11:26 AM
Front quadrant swimming is a term.

I am afraid that catch words and terms in swimming is a name the game thing. In late 40s someone came up with the name the catchup stroke and did a specific movement so the arms would be centered instead of placing them in the water shoulder witdth. It was not introduced to help us reach. It was in the days that we were also told keep the shoulders flat and don't roll. One of our coaches used to tell me quit rolling the shoulders. Don't bend your arms under water. I never listened to him, he was a goof. He even told us to bilateral breathe

mattson
August 12th, 2008, 12:40 PM
Keep in mind why a lot of these terms were thrown out there: for the "average" swimmer, who usually spends a lot of time in the stroke cycle with both arms at their side. You tell them to do front-quadrant swimming/catch-up drill to break bad habits.

lobaugma
August 12th, 2008, 01:09 PM
i think he is just trying to get people to visit his website...and making it seem like he invented what the aussies have been teaching for some time...
all i know is that the swimmers are not near catch-up, but he keeps acting as though the whole world swims like that...i think he has nothing better to do than try and call the wheel by another name...
ROUND OBJECT WITH WHOLE IN MIDDLE...MAKE STUFF MOVE EASY...VISIT MY WEBSITE...

tomtopo
August 13th, 2008, 08:56 AM
There are enough terms out there screwing swimmers up we don't need to add more mumbo jumbo terms like Front-quadrant swimming to the list. If front quadrant means swimming flat without rotation then say that.

I don't know who created the name "Front quadrant" swimming. You rotate anytime you swim properly. Second, world class swimmers work hard at keeping their inertia or forward movement constant. Even a great kick like Michael Phelps can only reduce inertia loss (those who kick worse lose more inertia). In order for a kick to increase forward speed the kick would have to create more power than the arms. A style of stroke is only a style if it can be taught. I can teach swimmers how to lay on their arm and wait for the other arm to catch up or the best way to swim and that's to start the other arm when the opposite is in the EVF or propulsive phase. I can teach a swimmer to swim flat (no rotation???) or rotate and that's another style. I can teach a swimmer to catch early or or not and that's another style.

tomtopo
August 13th, 2008, 09:09 AM
Seriously, Tom, have you read anything anyone else has said? Front-quadrant swimming, whether you like the term or not, means the recovering arm enters the water while the pulling arm is still in the front quadrant. This means your pulling arm can be in the EVF catch position you advocate when the recovering arm enters. In fact many of the swimmers in the videos you've posted appear to swim that way, or at least very close to that.

You mention fluid mechanics, lift, drag, etc. Can we agree, then, that the goal should be to maximize propulsion while minimizing drag? I think that's what front-quadrant swimming is attempting to do. Sprinters probably shouldn't swim this way because propulsion is of paramount importance to them. A constant application of force to the water is more important to them so they're willing to accept the tradeoff of slightly more drag, but when you get to longer distances you need to be more efficient.

Here's why we need to stop adding terms that mean nothing. You gave me the definition of what front quadrant mean and I got a response that now added rotary swimming which opposes front-quadrant. Things that you can teach can become styles, like:

A Straight arm recovery vs. A bent arm recovery
A catch (EVF) vs. A straight arm
Swimming flat vs. rotating
Starting a pull when the other arm meets it vs. starting a pull when the other hand is in the power phase
Breathing bilateral vs. on the same side
Rotary breathing vs. Head out of the water

We don't need more nonesese terms, that's all and it's important if coaches are to communicate to swimmers of all ages and skills. So we need to stop.

Tom, this thread and the other one you started really should be merged. I really don't understand what your argument is about. People (including myself) have stated repeatedly that the EVF at the time the recovery arm enters is front quadrant swimming. Unless people are in EVF behind the shoulder, which would make no sense and would give little propulsion. Front quadrant swimming is in contrast to rotary swimming, where the pulling arm is behind the shoulder by the time the recovery arm enters the water. While rotary strokes give constant propulsion, it seems to me that the drag factor is increased. Are you proposing a rotary stroke?

beluga
August 13th, 2008, 10:16 AM
There are enough terms out there screwing swimmers up we don't need to add more mumbo jumbo terms like Front-quadrant swimming to the list. If front quadrant means swimming flat without rotation then say that.

Like Early Vertical Forearm? I see very few swimmers, even your examples, that have a 'vertical' forearm for any length of time. Usually the forearm, i.e. wrist to elbow, is at some diagonal to the horizontal plane and passes through 'vertical' momentarily.

Perhaps if you mean that the forearm should be perpendicular to the direction of travel you should say that.

Your being intentional obtuse regarding front quadrant swimming. If you really can't grasp the concept, do a google search for it and you'll find lots of entries that describe it far more eloquently than I can.

lobaugma
August 13th, 2008, 10:23 AM
this post has officialy made me dumber...who cares??? quit trying to get your agenda across like a politician...
instead of wasting your time bashing people who are using a different term than you, try helping someone out who cares...if people do not want to believe you, then let them go...i personally would rather watch an ian thorpe, michael phelps, or eamon sullivan rather than listen to you cause analysis paralysis...
people obviously use the term front-quadrant swimming...who cares if it implies only forcing yourself through the water in the first-quadrant of your pull...people do not immediately pull their arms out once they reach their shoulders...they are smart enough to pull all the way through their trunk...i personally don't mind people coming up with different ways to express how a motion can be done...
you are a commie pretty much by trying to limit the freedom of speech...

LindsayNB
August 13th, 2008, 11:49 AM
Tom, it seems to me that there is a spectrum of stroke timing, on one end you have rotary or kayak timing where the catch occurs about the time the other arm finishes, at the other end you have something approaching the catch up drill, even though no one competes using the catch up drill timing. When you want to talk to someone about timing what terms do you use to distinguish placement on this spectrum? Most of us say one stroke timing is more catchup or more front quadrant than another, what is your preference?

tomtopo
August 14th, 2008, 10:55 AM
Tom, it seems to me that there is a spectrum of stroke timing, on one end you have rotary or kayak timing where the catch occurs about the time the other arm finishes, at the other end you have something approaching the catch up drill, even though no one competes using the catch up drill timing. When you want to talk to someone about timing what terms do you use to distinguish placement on this spectrum? Most of us say one stroke timing is more catchup or more front quadrant than another, what is your preference?

I believe that their can be no other way to physically swim faster other than by timing your stroke where the opposing hand sets-up to enter the power phase of the stroke while the other is moving out of it. I don't think that's front quadrant swimming it's simply the way it must be. The best kick in the world can only reduce the loss of inertia and until someone's kick creates more power than their pull, than will never change. In the women's 1500 during the last World Games both the Gold and Silver winners showed one hand entering and setting up with an awesome EVF while the other hand was in and leaving the power phase. On the opposite extreme, the French swimmer Bernard overcame a poor but still present EVF by applying more drag force than his competitiors. Bernards example is not unique and merely shows that athleticism can overcome idiosycrcies or imperfect stroke mechanics. When you're tall and strong your appendages can create more drag force but I believe he could be even faster if he set up his stroke with a more efficient EVF.

To answer your question-
Most of us say one stroke timing is more catchup or more front quadrant than another, what is your preference? I believe that --

If catchup is opposite of mirror image than I believe mirror image or the attempt at achieving constant inertia by staying in the power phase as long and as often as possible - I'm a mirror image believer.
THERE IS NO OTHER WAY --- AMEN BROTHERS!!!

Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can't have your kayak and heat it too.