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Rain Man
August 14th, 2008, 10:34 AM
When Katie Hoff made the Olympics in 2004, she was young, inexperienced, and got overwhelmed. Since then she's dominated swimming in America, done well globally, and in 2008 she has been overwhelmed - again. To me, she just looks the part of the nervous girl, constantly re-adjusting her goggles and plastering them to her face before races, taking deep breaths, etc. You don't see this out of Coughlin, Phelps, Piersol, and the list goes on and on. How is she going to perform at the highest level if she's a nervous wreck before races?

She was the prohibitive favorite in the IM's, and one of few favorites in the 2, 4, and 8 Freestyles. She got 4th, 3rd, 4th, 2nd, and an FTQ, respectively. We should all be so fortunate to be that good, but from a US Swimming standpoint, I think this has to go down as a disappointing performace. The only thing saving her (media-wise) is Phelps. Otherwise she'd have been the spotlight athlete. She was even mentioned as having a chance for 5 golds. She's failed to meet expectations. And it's a common occurrence in US women's swimming since the '88 games. Jenny Thompson comes to mind.

aquageek
August 14th, 2008, 10:37 AM
I really don't like threads that are worded this way. Other than the French I specifically avoid criticizing any swimmers in the Olympics. I think you should beat it with this line of thought.

thewookiee
August 14th, 2008, 10:37 AM
Choke? Outside ofthe 800 free, she has swam best times or right on her best times. She can't control how fast the other girls are swimming and they are swimming outstanding.
Why do people think that it is a choke when someone is actually swimming ok but not winning?? I don't get that one. Yea, she is probably disappointed but her swims have been ok...not like she hasn't medaled or finaled in most of her events.

Allen Stark
August 14th, 2008, 10:44 AM
Look at the splits from the 4X200 relay,SHE didn't choke.

Rain Man
August 14th, 2008, 10:50 AM
I really don't like threads that are worded this way. Other than the French I specifically avoid criticizing any swimmers in the Olympics. I think you should beat it with this line of thought.

Geek - whatever, man. She hasn't met people's expectations. And wookie, she missed her 800m FR time by 8 seconds. The other country's swimmers have shown up and dropped their times. So being at or around her best times isn't getting it done.

"Choke" might have been a bit strong. How's "disappointment" then, for the PC weenies.

ande
August 14th, 2008, 10:55 AM
Katie is awesome, bad luck maybe, a few race / splitting errors (400 fr) definitely not choking

did you see her relay split 1:54

there's tremendous pressure at the olympics

there's many excellent swimmers

katie swam many back to back swims

she's america's greatest it's just that a few others touched the wall before she did

she's swimming her heart out
let's support her



When Katie Hoff made the Olympics in 2004, she was young, inexperienced, and got overwhelmed. Since then she's dominated swimming in America, done well globally, and in 2008 she has been overwhelmed - again. To me, she just looks the part of the nervous girl, constantly re-adjusting her goggles and plastering them to her face before races, taking deep breaths, etc. You don't see this out of Coughlin, Phelps, Piersol, and the list goes on and on. How is she going to perform at the highest level if she's a nervous wreck before races?

She was the prohibitive favorite in the IM's, and one of few favorites in the 2, 4, and 8 Freestyles. She got 4th, 3rd, 4th, 2nd, and an FTQ, respectively. We should all be so fortunate to be that good, but from a US Swimming standpoint, I think this has to go down as a "choke". The only thing saving her (media-wise) is Phelps. Otherwise she'd have been the spotlight athlete. She was even mentioned as having a chance for 5 golds. She's choked. And it's a common occurrence in US women's swimming since the '88 games. Jenny Thompson comes to mind.

aquageek
August 14th, 2008, 11:06 AM
Geek - whatever, man. She hasn't met people's expectations. And wookie, she missed her 800m FR time by 8 seconds. The other country's swimmers have shown up and dropped their times. So being at or around her best times isn't getting it done.

"Choke" might have been a bit strong. How's "disappointment" then, for the PC weenies.

Good for you, putting her down. Does it make you feel better about yourself? I'm not down on any of the swimmers, no matter the results.

thewookiee
August 14th, 2008, 11:10 AM
Geek - whatever, man. She hasn't met people's expectations. And wookie, she missed her 800m FR time by 8 seconds. The other country's swimmers have shown up and dropped their times. So being at or around her best times isn't getting it done.

"Choke" might have been a bit strong. How's "disappointment" then, for the PC weenies.

Hey Rain, clear the water out of your eyes. I said, "outside of her 800 free" she has had a good meet.

Whose expectations should she be trying to meet? Hers or yours? Yea, other swimmers have dropped time but it's not like hoff has rolled over to them.

I repeat this one....She cannot control what others do in their races. She has swam the best races her body has been able too. Just because she isn't winning, doesn't mean she is choking/disappointment/failing/etc. Yea, she may not be getting the results that the press has expected of her but if she is ok with the results, thats all that matters.

And it spelled with 2 "ee" wookiEE

thewookiee
August 14th, 2008, 11:11 AM
Good for you, putting her down. Does it make you feel better about yourself? I'm not down on any of the swimmers, no matter the results.

Except the frenchies relay right? lol

aquageek
August 14th, 2008, 11:17 AM
Except the frenchies relay right? lol

Yeah, what is up with the Frogs this year? Just watched the 50 and they were posing again. They should only pimp themselves out when foie gras is on the line.

LindsayNB
August 14th, 2008, 11:18 AM
On possibility affecting expectations may have been that much of the rest of the world was coming in with pre-suit times while the big name Americans had been using them for a while.

Since Rice had set WRs in both IMs and still held the 200IM WR I don't see how you could call Hoff the "prohibitive favorite", maybe that's the kind of thinking that leads to disappointment?

Sam Perry
August 14th, 2008, 11:20 AM
Her 800 was disappointing, but look at her program 200 FR, 400 FR, 800 Fr, 200 IM, 400 IM, 800 FR Relay are you kidding me? I know she did it at trials, but the Olympics is a whole other story. My guess is that she will come back in 2012 with a less aggressive program and do great.

Her only mistake swimming wise was her touch in the 400M Free. Had she finished correctly, she would be a gold medalist and this discussion wouldn't even be happening.

The women from the rest of the world are swimming so much faster and she now knows she has a lot of work to do to catch up. The US women's team all has a lot of work to do, but I think we will be singing a different tune, because the age factor is definitely in our corner. Heck Dara will only be 45 then. :D

Rain Man
August 14th, 2008, 11:21 AM
Good for you, putting her down. Does it make you feel better about yourself? I'm not down on any of the swimmers, no matter the results.

I forgot that everything written here has to be approved by you, or meet your approval. And you of all people certainly don't need to be giving anyone lectures about putting people down. Talk about the pot and the kettle.

WookieE, I think there was a general expectation of her heading into the Olympics based on what was written and spoken in the media. And she's been a little short of those expectations. Janet Evans herself called out the US women on Yahoo! Sports. And in one article, specifically mentioned Hoff. OK, I'm no Janet Evens, so maybe you'll listen to her.


http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/swimming/news;_ylt=AhLw0xXh86wCmdfp6Y1n8hWmaJh4?slug=je-womenswim081408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/swimming/news?slug=je-womenswim081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

mctrusty
August 14th, 2008, 11:22 AM
Yeah, gotta watch Wapner. Definitely gotta watch Wapner.

aquageek
August 14th, 2008, 11:28 AM
You said choking which is entirely different from disappointing. I try to limit my put downs to people on this forum, and only the ones I can either swim faster than or live far enough away from that fire bombing of my home is not likely.

I still think you are somewhat full of yourself to call her a choker.

I am waiting for how the Smiths will somehow pin this on Title IX, it can't be far off.

thewookiee
August 14th, 2008, 11:35 AM
Yea, I will definitly give more credit to anything Evans says about Hoff's preformances over what you think. Evans has been there...don't that rodeo. Even though Hoff is swimming a lot more events that Evans did, Evans has the right to call out the team, as a US Olympian.

Still, the media's expecations and Hoff's probably aren't the same. Yea, I bet she wanted to win every event but I bet she isn't disappointed in setting American records and winning medals of any color, since few people actually do get medals.

thewookiee
August 14th, 2008, 11:43 AM
I forgot that everything written here has to be approved by you, or meet your approval. And you of all people certainly don't need to be giving anyone lectures about putting people down. Talk about the pot and the kettle.

WookieE, I think there was a general expectation of her heading into the Olympics based on what was written and spoken in the media. And she's been a little short of those expectations. Janet Evans herself called out the US women on Yahoo! Sports. And in one article, specifically mentioned Hoff. OK, I'm no Janet Evens, so maybe you'll listen to her.


http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/swimming/news;_ylt=AhLw0xXh86wCmdfp6Y1n8hWmaJh4?slug=je-womenswim081408&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/swimming/news?slug=je-womenswim081308&prov=yhoo&type=lgns


Ok, read them. Evans wasn't calling her out. She was stating her thoughts. Not once did she say Hoff "choked" or anything along those lines. She said maybe she has spread herself a bit thin but she did not once call her a disappointment.

jim clemmons
August 14th, 2008, 11:54 AM
I am waiting for how the Smiths will somehow pin this on Title IX, it can't be far off.

I don't think they're going for the 9 angle on this one - I think they're gonna dip into the "training foreigners" bag.

aquageek
August 14th, 2008, 11:57 AM
I don't think they're going for the 9 angle on this one - I think they're gonna dip into the "training foreigners" bag.

Good point, hadn't thought of that angle.

ehoch
August 14th, 2008, 12:07 PM
I don't think winning all these medals is a disappointment - the problem is SHE APPEARS to think so. Just the look on her face after every finish tells it all.

The program has obviously taken a toll -- maybe she did not realize how tough some of the prelim and semis would be. The 200 IM final was not a good race for her and I have no idea what happened in the 800. She came home in a 1:06 the last 100 - maybe she cramped ???

jim clemmons
August 14th, 2008, 12:11 PM
...maybe she cramped ???

Like in "that time of the month?"

Peter Cruise
August 14th, 2008, 01:06 PM
As far as the media's expectations (which I believe can sometimes help shape the competitor's as well), I don't think they have truly absorbed how much a true World Sport at the elite level swimming has become. It is so easy to be beaten while doing a personal best (which is lesson that a lot of masters learn) and lose track of true personal achievement.
Right now, the public in Canada are grumbling about our dearth of medals, when we spend very little on summer sports; even dissing Mike Brown for missing a medal while setting two CDN records (nearly a 2 second drop) in the 200 brst.
Canada used to do pretty well in the 1970's when having a strong club system virtually guaranteed some swimmers capable of medalling on a thin world scene. US had a strong club scene and NCAA which at that time was unique. Now many countries have elite programs, sports institutes, exploit NCAA system etc. It is now a bearpit on the international swimming scene and I think Katie Hoff should hold her head high no matter what else happens.

jim clemmons
August 14th, 2008, 01:26 PM
I think we're also missing the fact the morning finals are affecting some performances more negatively than others.

This may be the result of normal training times for some being in the afternoon or evening as opposed to the morning.

hofffam
August 14th, 2008, 01:44 PM
I think we're also missing the fact the morning finals are affecting some performances more negatively than others.

This may be the result of normal training times for some being in the afternoon or evening as opposed to the morning.

I don't buy this at all. Many are swimming superbly in the morning finals. Just not US women. Nothing ever impacts everyone the same. Our team spent days in Singapore to get into the right time zone. We're 6 days into it now and some people are just swimming badly.

jim clemmons
August 14th, 2008, 02:02 PM
I don't buy this at all. Many are swimming superbly in the morning finals. Just not US women. Nothing ever impacts everyone the same. Our team spent days in Singapore to get into the right time zone. We're 6 days into it now and some people are just swimming badly.

Well, as I see it we pretty much agree.

"Many are swimming superbly in the morning finals." Yep.

"Just not US women." Some are, some aren't.

"Nothing ever impacts everyone the same." Absolutely.

Some of it may be morning related, some of it may not be. :doh:

SLOmmafan
August 14th, 2008, 02:12 PM
Quite frankly, the reason why people like Michael Phelps are so exceptional is their ability to perform multiple events under big pressure and come out on top. Katie Hoff has been billed "the female Michael Phelps" and she is not (and that is not an insult, because no one out thier is MP).

Look how many top Olympians have had bad Olympic games (Spitz in 68 sticks out like a sore thumb). She is still young, and all indications are she should be in the mix through the 2012 games if she stays on track.

cantwait4bike
August 14th, 2008, 02:34 PM
had she choose to swim 2 events and a relay............would the usa have 5 medals and hoff having 2 gold?

imo she is way over extented.

JonasTris
August 14th, 2008, 02:46 PM
No disappointment at all. These kids do their best and that is all we can ask for.

swimcat
August 14th, 2008, 03:02 PM
maybe they missed their taper. although they are swimming fast, they look tired or flat. some of the first timers, it's just a case of nerves, hersey said today in the atlanta journal. it was nerves

marksman
August 14th, 2008, 04:27 PM
Were the female swimmers not managed correctly when they left the states? I'm wondering if they were some issues with their diet, training, coaching, etc. after trials. I suspect more information will become available when they return.

rooinoz
August 14th, 2008, 06:16 PM
You know, Katie reminds me very much of Leisel Jones. Very talented at a young age and a lot of pressure placed on young shoulders to perform.
In Sydney 2000 - the media and us, the public, expected 15 year old Leisle to blitz the field and take gold medals. nope.. a silver medal happened.
Athens 2004 - Leisel is older, wiser, faster, more experienced..the expectation was also greater.. 1 bronze medal.
Leisel has said it was after Athens that she just wanted to give it all up. She was criticised something awful by the media.
Finally here is Beijing where she has established her dominance in breaststroking she has managed that elusive gold, and she has been quoted to say that looking back she wouldnt change a thing because the journey to get where she is today, has been what has made her at 22 years old today.

Katie will take away another disappointing games, but I predict that in the next 4 years she will being to to a leisel and virtually stamp her signature on certain events and look out 2012.

Katie will then be a force to reckon with. and good for her.

hofffam
August 14th, 2008, 06:58 PM
Were the female swimmers not managed correctly when they left the states? I'm wondering if they were some issues with their diet, training, coaching, etc. after trials. I suspect more information will become available when they return.

Perhaps they partied with Amanda Beard.....

thewookiee
August 14th, 2008, 08:52 PM
Katie will take away another disappointing games, .

Sorry, but I just don't see how these games are disappointing. She did swim a lifetime best in the 200 free. Helped lower the AR in the 800 free relay. Won the bronze in the 400 IM.

This is the part that I hate about media. They make it out to be a failure for her, because she didn't win. I think she did very well. She improved a lot in her experience from four years ago.

Not winning golds doesn't make her olympics a disappointment.

SwimStud
August 14th, 2008, 09:02 PM
Sorry, but I just don't see how these games are disappointing. She did swim a lifetime best in the 200 free. Helped lower the AR in the 800 free relay. Won the bronze in the 400 IM.

This is the part that I hate about media. They make it out to be a failure for her, because she didn't win. I think she did very well. She improved a lot in her experience from four years ago.

Not winning golds doesn't make her olympics a disappointment.

Yeah really John. If people truly think that's (performance) dissapointing then I think they have arrogance to spare.

You turn up and swim, the best swimmer ON THAT DAY wins. Sometimes it is your swimmer sometimes it's not. That's whay they hold the races--or should we just hand the 8 to Phelps and tell him we'll see him in London?
Get off her back.

thewookiee
August 14th, 2008, 09:28 PM
Yeah really John. If people truly think that's (performance) dissapointing then I think they have arrogance to spare.

You turn up and swim, the best swimmer ON THAT DAY wins. Sometimes it is your swimmer sometimes it's not. That's whay they hold the races--or should we just hand the 8 to Phelps and tell him we'll see him in London?
Get off her back.


Right on Stud!