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mikedilv
August 19th, 2008, 06:53 PM
From age 35 to age 38 I was on an incredible anti-aging program with the Cenegenics Medical Institute in Las Vegas. I was unable to afford Hgh, but I was on Testosterone Cypionate. It most definitely had an impact on my strength, but was never prescribed in doses that exceed what is considered normal in a male human being in his 20s. Nor was I prescribed my much desired and requested Deca-durabolin. :( In the end, I was a 37 yr old with 20 yr old testosterone levels which I am sure would be considered a legal genetic gift in an olympic drug test.

My concern is that it is a shame that athletes can't say "Yes, I am on a hormone replacement therapy program, I love it, and if you are over 25 you should look into it too!" I think the athletes justifiably fear that making such a statement will only cause the media to blow it out of proportion and label it as doping. Ah well, at least inspired fans will increase their belief in their own abilities and go after their dreams. Will they succeed? In my opinion, you succeed the minute get up off the couch and take a single step toward a dream. What do you think about all this? Is it fair to the younger athletes? Is it ethical to say "I'm not taking anything" to fans? What a tough position to be in for an athlete especially since the general population thinks doping instantly makes a super athlete vs an indescribable amount of heart and hard work. If while I was on Cypionate I had competed in anything, it would have only put my on a level playing field hormonally. That wouldn't have even guaranteed me a winning streak in my hometown.

ande
August 19th, 2008, 07:03 PM
if masters drug tested you probably would have tested positive
for an anabolic steriod

there's probably more masters swimmers than you think who are taking HGH and testosterone from clinics like Cenegenics and if they aren't breaking USMS and FINA records who cares




From age 35 to age 38 I was on an incredible anti-aging program with the Cenegenics Medical Institute in Las Vegas. I was unable to afford Hgh, but I was on Testosterone Cypionate. It most definitely had an impact on my strength, but was never prescribed in doses that exceed what is considered normal in a male human being in his 20s. Nor was I prescribed my much desired and requested Deca-durabolin. :( In the end, I was a 37 yr old with 20 yr old testosterone levels which I am sure would be considered a legal genetic gift in an olympic drug test.

My concern is that it is a shame that athletes can't say "Yes, I am on a hormone replacement therapy program, I love it, and if you are over 25 you should look into it too!" I think the athletes justifiably fear that making such a statement will only cause the media to blow it out of proportion and label it as doping. Ah well, at least inspired fans will increase their belief in their own abilities and go after their dreams. Will they succeed? In my opinion, you succeed the minute get up off the couch and take a single step toward a dream. What do you think about all this? Is it fair to the younger athletes? Is it ethical to say "I'm not taking anything" to fans? What a tough position to be in for an athlete especially since the general population thinks doping instantly makes a super athlete vs an indescribable amount of heart and hard work.

mikedilv
August 19th, 2008, 07:31 PM
if masters drug tested you probably would have tested positive
for an anabolic steriod

Don't athletic drug tests solely detect the use of anabolics and Hgh via elevated levels? Are there chemical flags in injectable anabolics and Hgh? Wow, if so, that raises other questions such as "How long until those flags are out of an athlete's system after discontinuation due to an upcoming event?" "Is poor timing of discontinuation the reason some athletes are busted at event time?" "Is anti-aging medicine from a licensed physician who is following FDA guidelines considered doping in USMS, FINA, the collegiate level, or the Olympics?" "What if, like me, you lost a testicle to cancer and am using the hormone replacement to compensate for the lost testicle?"

art_z
August 19th, 2008, 07:32 PM
I'm content aging like a normal human being. Nobody lives forever.

spudfin
August 19th, 2008, 07:47 PM
Don't forget men that prostate tumors are testosterone sensitive. There have been more than one patient appear with prostate cancer with unusual metastasis as a byproduct of testosterone supplementation. I am in the age naturally camp. Accept gradually declining testosterone and the wisdom and clarity associated with the lack of judgment clouding substances..........:)
Regards
Spudfin

ndecker
August 19th, 2008, 08:20 PM
Don't athletic drug tests solely detect the use of anabolics and Hgh via elevated levels?

I recall that Floyd Landis got busted for "synthetic testosterone". I did a quick lookup and found this:

"That test, which differentiates between natural and synthetic testosterone, was done after Landisís ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone was found to be more than twice what is allowed under World Anti-Doping Agency rules, the person said. Regulations limit the ratio to four to one. The range for an average person is between one to one and two to one."

So apparently they do have tests that are more discriminatory than just comparing levels...

marksman
August 19th, 2008, 08:40 PM
Drug companies would LOVE it if they could get people to feel like they needed hormone replacement. Imagine the revenues.

They're not gonna spend nearly as much money looking for potential long term side effects. Tread carefully.

mikedilv
August 19th, 2008, 09:06 PM
Accept gradually declining testosterone and the wisdom and clarity associated with the lack of judgment clouding substances..........:)

I'm embarrassed to say this, but hopefully someone will gain from it. I agree with Spudfin. I have had exceptionally natural high testosterone levels until i lost a testicle to cancer just after my 33rd birthday. My prior interests in life, possibly as a consequence of the T, were no holds barred fighting training (in a sanctioned competitive ring element), powerlifting (still love that) and chasing women. Now, 5 years later, going on 8 months of no T injections, I will be a full-time student at the University of Utah with an interest in doing something with my life, a desire to make a positive impact in the lives of others, and a new found interest in mathematics found in nature's design. In four years I will have a degree in mathematics and a degree in mechanical engineering, G-d willing. From there I would like to go on to grad school in Ocean Engineering. Though late in life, my priorities have shifted to a different lifestyle and I think the T levels have something to do with it. I still chase the ladies, but my education has moved ahead in priority.

jim thornton
August 19th, 2008, 10:17 PM
Mike, if you don't mind saying, how old are you? There are lots of things that can trigger life-mellowing behavioral changes of the sort you describe. I don't think militaries the world over would depend on young male recruits were we guys not so, well, stupidly aggressive at this time of life. Brain changes in the early to mid 20s seem to correlate with reduced risk taking behavior in general, drunk driving, etc.

I am also skeptical of your testosterone levels changing hugely post testicular cancer. Just as the testes shrink when a guy injects anabolic steroids (feedback loops tell the testes they don't need to make testosterone since there's too much in the body already), so would I think that a single testicle would crank up production to compensate for its companion lost to cancer.

I guess what I am wondering here is if everything you describe would have happened regardless of your cancer; my suspicion is it would have.

As for these longevity clinics in las vegas and other hotbeds of quackery, I think they are just another in a long line of American swindles that extract money in exchange for (mainly) placebo effects, and use eager-to-pay Ponce de Leon wannabes as guinea pigs for hormonal tinkering.

About six years ago, testosterone gel came out on the Rx market, and an editor of mine at Modern Maturity magazine wanted me to try the stuff out. A doctor friend agreed to prescribe it provided my various blood tests (like hematocrit and PSA) were normal.

It turns out I was anemic and had such a low natural testorerone level that I tried to get USMS to let me swim against the more masculine women in my age group.

They said no.

Anyhow, if anyone would benefit from boosting T to higher normal levels, it would be me. I massaged the goo in my shoulder religiously for months, went to a national meet, felt empowered by the magical edge...but did the same, no better, no worse, then I'd swum at any other comparable meet.

Besides no swimming benefits, I noticed zero changes in all the other parameters--from muscle buidling to sex drive to energy. Zero! No increased erotic dreaming, desire to watch Fight Club over and over again, urge to throw sand into the eyes of weaklings. Nothing! Bupkus!

I agree that the pharmaceutical industry is always trying to find new, chronic, low-grade "conditions" that can be remedied by regular trips to the drug store to pick up expensive prescriptions. I just don't think normal physiological levels of testosterone do anything, provided you are already in the normal range. For a 35 year old guy to boast of having the T levels of a 20 year old guy seems to me slightly ridiculous.

One final note. For all these different biomolecules that can be measured by various blood and urine and saliva assays, you have to keep in mind that the agent itself is only part of the equation. What is equally important is the various receptor sites on cell membranes and the like where these agents do their work. Just as Type 2 diabetics often produce more than enough insulin, but their cells can't use it properly (insulin resistance), so are compounds like testosterone only one part of the story. Guys like me with low normal levels, the doctor explained, may have cells that are more sensitive to testosterone's effects.

But I still think they should let me swim against East German type women.

ALM
August 19th, 2008, 10:25 PM
In another thread I posted an editorial about a very different type of "anti-aging" drug...

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?p=148667#post148667

mikedilv
August 20th, 2008, 12:22 AM
Jim, in answer to your question, I am 38 yrs old.
Since a baseline for serum hormone levels was never determined prior to the orchiectomy nor recently prior to the development of the tumor, it is unknown what changes occurred in my T levels due to the tumor and orchiectomy. What my MD had to go by was how I felt physically and mentally years after the surgery compared to how I typically felt long before the surgery. However, once a blood test was done involving several elements e.g. total testosterone, free testosterone, estrogen, and more, my physician was able to show me that there was a problem in my feedback loop. My remaining testicle was getting plenty of signal to produce more T, was not responding 100% and causing my brain to excrete more and more signals to produce more T, if I remember correctly.

Cenegenics was definitely a legitimate service. I was prescribed pharmacy delivered Cypionate and injected it twice a week and also took Arimidex. Every so many weeks I would have blood work done, wait a week, and then have an appointment with the doc to review the lab results and upcoming goals. The quality of service was unbelievable and I looked and felt incredible! In all honesty, people in the gym were amazed how how much I could lift. The only reason I discontinued was due to a career change and decrease in income. Looking back however, I would be a little more worried about the whole prostate cancer risk than I was back then. I'm not a fan of the finger. :)

Ripple
August 20th, 2008, 01:03 AM
Hormone replacement therapy was heavily promoted to women from the late 60's until recently. Menopause was treated like a disease instead of the natural end of the reproductive years, and we were supposed to have all these benefits from synthetic estrogen and progesterone, it was supposed to keep us young forever. Then it was found that taking these synthetic hormones could, in some cases, actually increase the risk of heart disease and certain cancers and now they are prescribed much more sparingly.
Your case might be comparable to a woman having her ovaries removed in her 30's, although, as someone pointed out, you still have one left.