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ande
August 26th, 2008, 11:03 AM
Since there is

Help my Flutter Kick is Horrible

and

Help my SDK is Horrible

I decided to begin

Help My Speed is Horrible!

a thread for swimmers who want to dramatically improve their 25 speed and times

Help My Speed is Horrible! is a Sprint improvement program
If you do it consistently you should dramatically improve your 25 swimming time.

When you improve your 25 speed
you'll improve your times in all swimming distances
especially 50's, 100's, & 200's
even 400, 500, 800, 1,000, 1,500 & 1,650 times will benefit.


Here's the Program for "Help My Speed is Horrible"
Begin with testing figure out your starting point. Where are you now?
Then train
Then retest


Test

Get your times on the following swims

1) 15 meters
2) 25
3) 50
4) 75 &
5) 100

Test the 15, 25, & 50 on one day then the 75 & 100 on a different day
put plenty of rest between each timed effort
like a very easy 75 or 125 or 175 then 3 to 7 more minutes of rest
put more rest between the longer sprints
also note
The suit you wore
Your start: how did you start each swim
(roll, push, or coaches go, )
dive from a block or side
push from in the water
Use a STOPWATCH tell the timer how you want them to time you

Report your Results in this thread


Training

1) do this set 2 or 3 times a week, 12 x 25 swim
3 EASY recovery concentrating on perfect form
1 as fast as possible for time
YOU MUST GO SUPER FAST ON THESE
IF YOU HOLD BACK AT ALL YOU'RE WASTING YOUR TIME
preferably no breath, unless your 25 time is over 20 or 25 seconds
It's OK to do more working out, just fit this set in some where in your workouts,
be consistent, one round is better than none

2) Test every Friday or Saturday
1) 3 weeks of 15, 25, & 50
2) 1 week of 25, 75 & 100

3) work on improving your flutter kick and SDK
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=133395&postcount=245
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=133100&postcount=48
if you're working on your swimming speed, SDK and Flutter kick
do 2 x (4 x 25) swim
2 x (4 x 25) flutter kick
2 x (4 x 25) SDK

4) stretch your feet / ankles to improve your toe point

5) Lift weights to improve your strength power and speed
2 or 3 times a week

6) get a tech suit
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=128449&postcount=732
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=137375&postcount=771

7) perfect your swimming technique
pushoff
streamline
SDK
head position
body position
arm motions
leg motions
touching the wall (the clock doesn't stop until you touch the wall)


8) Train and test for 5 weeks then
Rest one week, reduce your yardage
Mon 2 x 4 x 25
Tue easy
Wed 4 x 25
Thu easy
Friday or Saturday TEST wearing a tech suit

Report your results

9) begin another 6 week cycle

Report your test results in this fashion
(put most recent times on top)

8/10/08: 23.48
7/26: 25.92
7/6: 24.94
7/2: 25.45
5/10: 25.55
4/4: 27.18
3/29: 26.27
3/22: 27.62
3/15: 27.12
3/8: 28.0
3/1: 30.2

You should begin to see dramatic improvements in your 25 speed.
I look forward to reading your results.

Let me know if you accept this challenge
Give it a try and see what happens
Don't be fooled by how simple it is.

Are you in?

ande
August 27th, 2008, 11:19 AM
Is anyone willing to accept this challenge?
Do you want to get faster?

This is simple but it will WORK WONDERS.

mctrusty
August 27th, 2008, 01:37 PM
I've been thinking about doing something like this for my breaststroke. Last week, I resolved to do 2 x 50 fast breast for time from a push 2 times per week. I already lift, do drills, work on K, etc.

What I'd need to add is the 12x25 set and the testing schedule.

The ultimate goal is a respectable breaststroke split in the 200/400 IMs.

pwolf66
August 27th, 2008, 02:11 PM
Don't get sucked into thinking that good Breaststroke splits in IM are only a direct result of improved Breaststroke. How you swim the Fly and Back legs have a lot more to do with your Breast splits. Using too much legs prior to Breaststroke will kill even the best Breaststroke swimmer. So while imporving your Breast is always a good thing, don't ignore improving your Fly and Back and also train to swim the 2IM and 4IM properly.

Then agian, this is coming from a self professed sprinter so take that as you will.

mctrusty
August 27th, 2008, 04:09 PM
Don't get sucked into thinking that good Breaststroke splits in IM are only a direct result of improved Breaststroke. How you swim the Fly and Back legs have a lot more to do with your Breast splits. Using too much legs prior to Breaststroke will kill even the best Breaststroke swimmer. So while imporving your Breast is always a good thing, don't ignore improving your Fly and Back and also train to swim the 2IM and 4IM properly.

Then agian, this is coming from a self professed sprinter so take that as you will.

Yeah, I know what you mean. My problem, though, is that I hit the breaststroke leg with plenty of legs left but my breaststroke is just not anywhere near as developed as my fly and back so I just kinda fake my way through it.

In my previous swimmer life (HS/D3 college) I swam backstroke, fly, or IM at 95% of the meets I'd ever done. Most of my training was centered around those things--mainly backstroke. I can swim fly and back with easy speed but the breast never clicked.

So now that I'm back in, I'm trying to catch my breaststroke up to my fly and back.

ande
August 27th, 2008, 05:07 PM
maybe your test should be
swim a 150 IM 50 fl 50 bk 50 br
get splits but focus on the 50 breast
see how much you can improve it

splitting makes a huge diff in IM also experiment with splits at meets

what were your IM times and splits?

you can also do 50 breast swims
where you swim bk into the wall
watch starts when you touch the wall then flip or turn and sprint a 50 breast for time



I've been thinking about doing something like this for my breaststroke. Last week, I resolved to do 2 x 50 fast breast for time from a push 2 times per week. I already lift, do drills, work on K, etc.

What I'd need to add is the 12x25 set and the testing schedule.

The ultimate goal is a respectable breaststroke split in the 200/400 IMs.

rtodd
August 27th, 2008, 05:37 PM
I want my sub 60sec 100free so I am in, but a few things:

1. I swim in a 33.3 yd pool. I can just pretend it is 25 yds to establish times, this should not be a problem since I am only comparing to myself.

2. Just to be clear the basic set is 12 x 25, three easy/recovery with form and 1 all out. The set will have three all out 25's. 2-3 times a week and test on a six week cycle.

3. If I wan't to improve IM, how do you suggest I approach that? Just stick with free for this set and there will be some cross benefit? I think trying the test with all different strokes will be too confusing to analyze and I should stick with free. What do you think?

ande
August 27th, 2008, 07:04 PM
COOL
WHAT IS YOUR 100 fr TIME?
do the training as described and TEST a fast 25 each WEEK
BUILDING UP TO YOUR FINAL TEST AT THE END OF 6 WEEKS

do one length sprints or mark off 25 meters and put a rock or a line on the bottom of the pool

WHICH I.M. 100, 200, OR 400
work on your weakest stroke
get stronger
swim a fast IM for time once every week or 2


I want my sub 60sec 100free so I am in, but a few things:

1. I swim in a 33.3 yd pool. I can just pretend it is 25 yds to establish times, this should not be a problem since I am only comparing to myself.

2. Just to be clear the basic set is 12 x 25, three easy/recovery with form and 1 all out. The set will have three all out 25's. 2-3 times a week and test on a six week cycle.

3. If I wan't to improve IM, how do you suggest I approach that? Just stick with free for this set and there will be some cross benefit? I think trying the test with all different strokes will be too confusing to analyze and I should stick with free. What do you think?

rtodd
August 27th, 2008, 07:59 PM
100 SCY free is 61.04 from meet in April. I want to really improve that!

I'd also like to imrove 100 and 200 IM.

I will get the baselines next week.

riseforms
August 27th, 2008, 08:16 PM
I might play with this. I actually timed a 25 today trying to go as fast as I could. The fastest I could muster was 14s... I might start this next week or maybe do another timing tomorrow... A couple caveats/questions:

Being new to swimming. Is there an easy way to tell where 15 is? The flags? I swim in a SCY pool.

Where I swim, not a lot of volunteers for timing, so I will probably end up using that big Kiefer pace clock at the gym.. Might mean I am off by a second or two but the method i use should allow me to be consistent.

So the first time was 25yds in 14s, with swim trunks on.. Pushed off from the wall with a SDK turned into flutter kick as I recovered.

mctrusty
August 27th, 2008, 09:49 PM
maybe your test should be
swim a 150 IM 50 fl 50 bk 50 br
get splits but focus on the 50 breast
see how much you can improve it

splitting makes a huge diff in IM also experiment with splits at meets

what were your IM times and splits?

From our state meet last SCY season, untapered + at altitude:
200 IM:
Cox, Michael 30 BeeGees 2:25.00 2:15.84
29.16 33.40 40.85 32.43

400 IM:
Cox, Michael 30 BeeGees 4:56.69
31.16 34.50
36.15 36.44
42.39 43.03
36.28 36.74

I realize that my free split also needs to improve. I'm going to take probably at least 1-2 training cycles (1/2 - 1 year) on improving each stroke then re-integrating. I'm starting with breast because it's the one that I should be able to PB in the easiest (PB: 1:09/2:27 100/200 br). Last year after 3 months back in the water I went (1:11/2:30).

I like the idea of doing the 150 IM test every 4th week, with breaststroke 25/50 timed tests on the 1-3 weeks of each mini cycle.

shadowlink18
August 27th, 2008, 11:57 PM
I'll do it. I can't afford to buy and use a tech suit every week, but I'll take my dragsuit off for the tests. I'll start next week, and I'm looking forward to it!

Edit - I read the post incorrectly (it's late) so scratch that statement about the tech suit every week.

Rykno
August 28th, 2008, 06:54 AM
I'm in, but I have a meet in 4 weeks and it's only 10 weeks until my next "big" meet.

so i will do a quick 4 week training and then a 6 week training after that. can do my first test this sunday. we have increased our pool time on sundays from 90 minutes to 2 hrs.

the first 4 weeks i will work on my free speed. since that meet I will be swimming all strokes.

BUT the second 6 weeks will be breatstroke. Since I had already planned on concentrating on getting a good 200 breast time, I will incorperate the 12x25's just after warm up. will be interesting to see how my 50-100 -200 times will be. it's always hard to compare LCM to SCM but here are my last two "race" times

50 scm 33,42
50 lcm 34,57

100 scm 1:15,20
100 lcm 1:16.87

200 scm 2:47.91 (actually swam at end of practice to get an entry time)
200 lcm 2:53.23

my goals for Nov SCM are 32.99, 1:13.50, 2:40.99

Warren
August 28th, 2008, 09:37 AM
It's also good to do some lactate sets every once in while. Something like 6x 50 all out on 5 minutes. This will help you hold your top speed for a longer periode of time.

pwolf66
August 28th, 2008, 09:56 AM
And sets like this will also help learn how to keep your speed up when you are absolutely hurting.

ande
August 28th, 2008, 11:39 AM
if you're training for the 200 & 400 IM
you pretty much need to be able to swim anything from a 50 to a 500
focus on sprints and speed
focus on middle distance fr and breastroke
in your 200 IM you were
out in 62.56 = 29.16 + 33.40
back in 73.28 = 40.85 + 32.43
so there was a 10.72 second difference between
your first 100 and your 2nd 100
work to get those much closer by
1) developing more speed so you can use easy speed and have more left over at the 100
2) making a better splitting choice
try saving your legs on fly and back, work the breast and sprint the free
3) getting in better condition to rock on the way home
drop that 40.8 by as much as possible, get that 32.4 under 30

good luck
keep us posted

ande


From our state meet last SCY season, untapered + at altitude:
200 IM:
Cox, Michael 30 BeeGees 2:25.00 2:15.84
29.16 33.40 40.85 32.43

400 IM:
Cox, Michael 30 BeeGees 4:56.69
31.16 34.50
36.15 36.44
42.39 43.03
36.28 36.74

I realize that my free split also needs to improve. I'm going to take probably at least 1-2 training cycles (1/2 - 1 year) on improving each stroke then re-integrating. I'm starting with breast because it's the one that I should be able to PB in the easiest (PB: 1:09/2:27 100/200 br). Last year after 3 months back in the water I went (1:11/2:30).

I like the idea of doing the 150 IM test every 4th week, with breaststroke 25 / 50 timed tests on the 1 - 3 weeks of each mini cycle.

ande
August 28th, 2008, 11:41 AM
you don't need to buy a new tech suit evey week
but it's good to have one or 2
best value for your $ is probably the FS PRO Legs or hineck


I'll do it. I can't afford to buy and use a tech suit every week, but I'll take my dragsuit off for the tests. I'll start next week, and I'm looking forward to it!

Edit - I read the post incorrectly (it's late) so scratch that statement about the tech suit every week.

ande
August 28th, 2008, 11:43 AM
Hey RYKNO

good luck
hope you swim faster faster
let us know

ande


I'm in, but I have a meet in 4 weeks and it's only 10 weeks until my next "big" meet.

so i will do a quick 4 week training and then a 6 week training after that. can do my first test this sunday. we have increased our pool time on sundays from 90 minutes to 2 hrs.

the first 4 weeks i will work on my free speed. since that meet I will be swimming all strokes.

BUT the second 6 weeks will be breatstroke. Since I had already planned on concentrating on getting a good 200 breast time, I will incorperate the 12x25's just after warm up. will be interesting to see how my 50-100 -200 times will be. it's always hard to compare LCM to SCM but here are my last two "race" times

50 scm 33,42
50 lcm 34,57

100 scm 1:15,20
100 lcm 1:16.87

200 scm 2:47.91 (actually swam at end of practice to get an entry time)
200 lcm 2:53.23

my goals for Nov SCM are 32.99, 1:13.50, 2:40.99

ande
August 28th, 2008, 11:46 AM
Absolutely
Lactate sets are great, they are critical for speed, speed endurance, and mental toughness. They take you to how you will feel when you race.

Become lactation specialists, uh lactate specialists


It's also good to do some lactate sets every once in while. Something like 6x 50 all out on 5 minutes. This will help you hold your top speed for a longer periode of time.

Sooner
August 28th, 2008, 06:16 PM
Don't get sucked into thinking that good Breaststroke splits in IM are only a direct result of improved Breaststroke. How you swim the Fly and Back legs have a lot more to do with your Breast splits. Using too much legs prior to Breaststroke will kill even the best Breaststroke swimmer. So while imporving your Breast is always a good thing, don't ignore improving your Fly and Back and also train to swim the 2IM and 4IM properly.

Then agian, this is coming from a self professed sprinter so take that as you will.

my son came back a few weeks ago from the Zone meet in Atlanta and was laughing about his assigned 15-18 coach. My son has figured out the pace he needs in the fly leg of the 400 IM to swim the race effectively. He told the coach not to panic if he is trailing after fly that he will begin to make it up on back, then catch up on breast and finish strong on free. He knows that swimming the fly too fast will kill his breaststroke. Anyway, the coach told him that he should not have that attitude and that he should be trying to lead after the fly. Obviously, he ignored that and did a best time. I fully agree with your assessment. Fred

rtodd
August 29th, 2008, 05:26 PM
working on my baseline.

33.3 yds 20 sec.
66.6 yds 44 sec.

both from a push.

Will get 100 yds next week.

ande
August 29th, 2008, 06:46 PM
good
you now have some marks to beat
you can also see how you fade from 33 to 66

ande


working on my baseline.

33.3 yds 20 sec.
66.6 yds 44 sec.

both from a push.

Will get 100 yds next week.

ande
September 3rd, 2008, 04:15 PM
anyone working on this
got any results to share yet?

shadowlink18
September 3rd, 2008, 10:26 PM
I've been meaning to get started on this, but at the end of practice I did 4x25 @ 1:00 (1 easy 1 fast) and I went around 12 seconds on both fast ones from a push. I don't know for sure that's how fast I went because the pool I'm swimming in has only one pace clock and it's hard to read across the pool. I need to find someone with a stop watch. I'm pretty pleased though because I feel like I actually went pretty fast in practice.

I can tell my elbows slip a lot when I'm swimming fast, so I need to figure out a way to keep high elbows and hold onto the water the whole way through my pull, but still pull fast enough to go fast. I've also noticed that I carry a 6 beat kick all the time. I've never paid attention to it before, but I tried a 2 beat kick and I can't do it, so 6 beat all the way it is. I'll do a test on Friday or Saturday and see how I'm doing in my 25 and 50 times.

mctrusty
September 4th, 2008, 10:14 AM
Forgot to post:
8/27/08 - 2 x 50 br fast @1:00 - 39, 38
8/31/08 - 25 br afap: 18
8/31/08 - 2 x 75 br afap - 57, 57

Unless otherwise noted, I do them from a push and I wear a drag suit. Tomorrow is test day again.

I have a pentathlon meet coming up in a little over 5 weeks -- race a 50 of each stroke and then a 200 IM. My main goal for that meet is to split sub 40 on the breast leg of the 2 IM.

ande
September 4th, 2008, 11:36 AM
good
bring a stopwatch
find someone to time you
look forward to more updates

ande


I've been meaning to get started on this, but at the end of practice I did 4x25 @ 1:00 (1 easy 1 fast) and I went around 12 seconds on both fast ones from a push. I don't know for sure that's how fast I went because the pool I'm swimming in has only one pace clock and it's hard to read across the pool. I need to find someone with a stop watch. I'm pretty pleased though because I feel like I actually went pretty fast in practice.

I can tell my elbows slip a lot when I'm swimming fast, so I need to figure out a way to keep high elbows and hold onto the water the whole way through my pull, but still pull fast enough to go fast. I've also noticed that I carry a 6 beat kick all the time. I've never paid attention to it before, but I tried a 2 beat kick and I can't do it, so 6 beat all the way it is. I'll do a test on Friday or Saturday and see how I'm doing in my 25 and 50 times.

rtodd
September 7th, 2008, 07:38 AM
8/27
33.3 20sec
66.6 44sec

9/4
33.3 19sec
66.6 43sec

ande
September 7th, 2008, 09:24 AM
you improved
bring and use a stop watch, get someone to time you
what happened to "Will get 100 yds next week"

Ande



8/27 33.3 20sec 66.6 44sec

9/4 33.3 19sec 66.6 43sec

shadowlink18
September 7th, 2008, 11:28 AM
I didn't make it to the pool on Saturday because of the football game (everything was closed) I still don't have a stopwatch, but I'll try to test tomorrow.

rtodd
September 7th, 2008, 08:24 PM
what happened to "Will get 100 yds next week"

I will get the 100 this week.

FYI, I swam in a nice deep 25 yd pool with lane ropes and it is about 5 sec faster per 100 than my 100ft non overflow, shallow pool without lane ropes!

rtodd
September 10th, 2008, 05:51 PM
Today:

Warm up,

100 free baseline is 1:06 from a push.

33.3 all out followed by easy 100.

Held most of the 33.3's at 19sec followed by 40 sec recovery, easy 100 on 2 minutes.

Did it 10 times.

cooldown.

Will do this at least once a week and test the 33.3, 66.6 and 100 around the 5th week.

ande
September 10th, 2008, 09:42 PM
great
now you have marks to beat
do the training then see what happens

ande


Today:

Warm up,

100 free baseline is 1:06 from a push.

33.3 all out followed by easy 100.

Held most of the 33.3's at 19sec followed by 40 sec recovery, easy 100 on 2 minutes.

Did it 10 times.

cooldown.

Will do this at least once a week and test the 33.3, 66.6 and 100 around the 5th week.

shadowlink18
September 13th, 2008, 12:11 AM
I've been having trouble sticking to this. Mostly because I don't have a reliable way of timing myself, and I can't find a place to fit test practices in. If I swim them at the end of practice, I'm tired. If I swim them instead of practice, I'm missing a practice. Right now I have my schedule like this-

Mon/Wed - Hard swim + lifting
Tues/Thurs - Easier, but faster swim, abs
Fri - lifting + recovery practice

I try to catch my times whenever we do sprints (usually at the end of practice), Wednesday was my hardest practice this week and the end was 4x25 sprint. I did the first one in 13 and the rest in 15. This was coming after a pretty intense lift earlier in the day and a really intense swim. I'm not sure how it translates into rested pace, but I do have a meet in the middle of October where I'll be able to measure my progress.

mctrusty
September 13th, 2008, 04:32 PM
On Friday, I did 2 x 50 breast @2:00 w/no drag suit - 37, 36.

ande
September 13th, 2008, 05:42 PM
SCY LCM SCM
from a dive or push

ande


On Friday, I did 2 x 50 breast @2:00 w/no drag suit - 37, 36.

mctrusty
September 14th, 2008, 07:04 PM
SCY LCM SCM
from a dive or push

ande

or

SCY from a push.

ande
September 15th, 2008, 04:07 PM
great now you have times to compare
keep training and testing

ande


SCY from a push.

shadowlink18
September 17th, 2008, 12:30 AM
I did 2 50s sprint at the end of practice and went 24 and then 25. I know I can do better than that (I took way too many breaths). But it's still pretty decent for me. I tend to go much slower in practice than when I race, but I'm trying to work on that.

ande
September 17th, 2008, 09:53 AM
nice job
keep working on it
you'll keep getting faster

ande


I did 2 50s sprint at the end of practice and went 24 and then 25. I know I can do better than that (I took way too many breaths). But it's still pretty decent for me. I tend to go much slower in practice than when I race, but I'm trying to work on that.

rtodd
September 18th, 2008, 09:13 PM
Did "fast Friday" today since I can't get to the pool tomorrow. I started with 33.3's all out. Did two and held 19's, then my training partners showed and I was "forced" to change the workout to four all out 100's with easy 100 recovery. Held first three at 1:13's. I admit I held back a little. As punishment I did the fourth 100 fly/back/breast and held 1:30.

Next week I will be sure I do the 10x fast 33's!

mjgold
September 19th, 2008, 01:15 AM
I'm going to start doing this as well. I think I'm more suited to distance in the free, but for some reason I can move pretty fast in breast--at least I can now. My 50y breast was ~45 (don't remember the actual time, because like an idiot, I didn't write it down) from a push; however, today, I did a 25y in 15 seconds from a push, and this was after about 1,000 yards of practice. Something just clicked in my technique, and I noticed I was moving a lot faster through the water than I was previously. I think I'm going to do a 50 off the block on Saturday so I can have a real baseline to work from.

Also, I just wanted to add that I've been swimming for about 3-4 weeks, so go easy on me with my times!

ande
September 19th, 2008, 11:48 AM
hey Gold,

was that 15 for a 25 breast
just test it again
look forward to seeing your times and progress

Ande



I'm going to start doing this as well. I think I'm more suited to distance in the free, but for some reason I can move pretty fast in breast--at least I can now. My 50y breast was ~45 (don't remember the actual time, because like an idiot, I didn't write it down) from a push; however, today, I did a 25y in 15 seconds from a push, and this was after about 1,000 yards of practice. Something just clicked in my technique, and I noticed I was moving a lot faster through the water than I was previously. I think I'm going to do a 50 off the block on Saturday so I can have a real baseline to work from.

Also, I just wanted to add that I've been swimming for about 3-4 weeks, so go easy on me with my times!

mctrusty
September 19th, 2008, 12:25 PM
50 breast SCY from a push, w/drag suit: 36.

mctrusty
September 19th, 2008, 12:48 PM
I changed my breaststroke this week. An old friend of mine, who happens to be an excellent breaststroker and a coach, was in town this last weekend. He looked at my stroke and gave me a crapload of pointers and drills to try.

The tip he gave me that really seems to be helping is that the catch should be the same as it is in butterfly. I was thinking about that yesterday and started doing some drills where I'd do 2-3 fly strokes and then a couple of breast strokes, trying to maintain the same feel on the catch. Then I'd swim 100 breast. I swam my first ever sub-1:20 practice 100 breaststroke yesterday (1:17).

My training set times have gone down 1-2s per 50 since I started trying to be more fly-like with my breaststroke. My stroke feels a lot more fluid now, and I can really feel the difference in that it feels like I'm continuously moving instead of the more herky-jerky motion I was using before. I feel like I've had a breaststroke epiphany. Hopefully it's not just an anomalous couple of days

ande
September 19th, 2008, 01:40 PM
congrats on your improvements

I don't agree that the breast catch is the same as fly

fly
you catch then press down and through

breast
you out sweep, in sweep then thrust.

there's plenty of info on

www.breaststroke.info

plus watch underwater youtube videos of the best

in fly
hands and forearms are beneath your elbows
perpendicular to the surface

in breast
hands and forearms tend to stay even with your elbows
parallell to the surface

if your breast pull is like a half fly pull
you bury your forearms and hands then have to "dig" them out
which creates lot of drag

watch what the best breastrokers do

basically the pull helps set up the kick
when elite breastrokers kick their upper bodies are streamlined to maximize distance




I changed my breaststroke this week. An old friend of mine, who happens to be an excellent breaststroker and a coach, was in town this last weekend. He looked at my stroke and gave me a crapload of pointers and drills to try.

The tip he gave me that really seems to be helping is that the catch should be the same as it is in butterfly. I was thinking about that yesterday and started doing some drills where I'd do 2-3 fly strokes and then a couple of breast strokes, trying to maintain the same feel on the catch. Then I'd swim 100 breast. I swam my first ever sub-1:20 practice 100 breaststroke yesterday (1:17).

My training set times have gone down 1-2s per 50 since I started trying to be more fly-like with my breaststroke. My stroke feels a lot more fluid now, and I can really feel the difference in that it feels like I'm continuously moving instead of the more herky-jerky motion I was using before. I feel like I've had a breaststroke epiphany. Hopefully it's not just an anomalous couple of days

mctrusty
September 19th, 2008, 02:57 PM
congrats on your improvements

I don't agree that the breast catch is the same as fly

fly
you catch then press down and through

breast
you out sweep, in sweep then thrust.

there's plenty of info on

www.breaststroke.info (http://www.breaststroke.info)

plus watch underwater youtube videos of the best

in fly
hands and forearms are beneath your elbows
perpendicular to the surface

in breast
hands and forearms tend to stay even with your elbows
parallell to the surface

if your breast pull is like a half fly pull
you bury your forearms and hands then have to "dig" them out
which creates lot of drag

watch what the best breastrokers do

basically the pull helps set up the kick
when elite breastrokers kick their upper bodies are streamlined to maximize distance

I think it's just the catch and partial pull. I don't feel like my hands are getting buried b/c I'm not going that far back with it.

This is on the breaststroke.info (http://breaststroke.info) site (http://breaststroke.info/Whatwentwrongwiththewavestylebreaststroke.htm): (http://breaststroke.info/Whatwentwrongwiththewavestylebreaststroke.htm%29:)



One of the reasons I believe in the “new” wave style is arm power is conserved more, with more emphasis on getting the most out of the kick, and the glide underwater. The forearms and biceps are not good for long term power production like the latissimus dorsi and trapezius muscles. This is why I stress the second hunch method of swimming breaststroke. By outward medial rotation of the arms through the shoulders and placing the shoulders in the exact position as the beginnings of the butterfly pull, breaststrokers can utilize more of the latissimus dorsi and trapezius muscles and less of the forearm and biceps. The thumbs and pointed down and palms outwards, elbows are high pointing to the waters surface. From this position of strength, either an outward scull or a butterfly pull can be made. My preference is the straight back butterfly pull.
By using a stretch to a butterfly catch and pull at shoulders width, the time consumed going to the out-scull catch and starting the in-sweep is eliminated. A butterfly type pull in breaststroke is faster and provides more forwards propulsion. Domenico Fioravanti, Kosuke Kitakimaand Agnes Kovacs all use variations of a butterfly pull. This quicker pull allows more time in streamline and underwater. This allows for a true glide, and energy is conserved to be used for the rest of the stroke.


So Wayne claims the same thing in this article that my buddy related to me. This model really struck a chord with me lately. I used to do the old windshield wiper-type (like what you describe above) pull but the more fly-like style sure feels a lot better to me.

That was only one piece advice that I was given, and the one that I've identified as really working well for me at this point. There was a whole slew of other tips and drills, and my buddy told me that he was giving me a bunch of different things to try because breaststroke is a pretty stylistically diverse stroke, with different things working for different people.

mjgold
September 21st, 2008, 04:47 PM
I went to my gym yesterday to do some times, but I only got one in before my watch filled with water and broke. :mad: Anyway, the pool has no gutters, is only about 3 feet deep, has all sorts of jets, and is generally just a crappy pool. I don't know if that had any effect on my time, but I swam 50m in 38 seconds. I know that's horrible, and I swim faster in the pool at practice, but I'm not sure if that's mental or if the pool actually helps.

On Tuesday, I'm going to have my coach time me for real rather than just me hitting start on my watch and going.

rtodd
October 14th, 2008, 08:22 PM
Been doing a "fast " set once a week which includes ALL OUT swims with alot of rest. Today I felt I really got turning over and went 17.5 from a push. That works out to a 52.5 pace. Hoping for that sub 60 at a meet at the end of month.

8/27
33.3 20sec
66.6 44sec

9/4
33.3 19sec
66.6 43sec

10/14
33.3 17.5sec

jjpj
October 14th, 2008, 11:56 PM
I'm going to start doing this as well. I think I'm more suited to distance in the free, but for some reason I can move pretty fast in breast--at least I can now. My 50y breast was ~45 (don't remember the actual time, because like an idiot, I didn't write it down) from a push; however, today, I did a 25y in 15 seconds from a push, and this was after about 1,000 yards of practice. Something just clicked in my technique, and I noticed I was moving a lot faster through the water than I was previously. I think I'm going to do a 50 off the block on Saturday so I can have a real baseline to work from.

Also, I just wanted to add that I've been swimming for about 3-4 weeks, so go easy on me with my times!

I started swimming 5 weeks ago and my time is similar to yours. I do 50m in 32sec. I was off for 15years. I am 30 now. don't worry it takes time to get back patience pays off.
:)

LateComer
October 15th, 2008, 04:56 AM
Hi Ande,
I am new to swimming having only learned this summer and having swum 1000m nonstop for the first time this past week.

I am wondering if you can help me improve my speed and perhaps just as importantly develop a program for speed and endurance given that I swim in a 42m pool and that I only know how to swim freestyle and a little backstroke. Trying to convert all the great advice I read about for 25y pools into my 42m workouts is not so obvious to me...

Right now, get into the pool after work and swim a set of freestyle laps depending on how much pool time remains (pool closes at 10pm).

Last few days:
Tuesday: rest
Monday: Morning--3 x 420m (10 lengths); Evening 1 x 840m (20 lengths; each was 77-87 seconds, with most around 83 seconds);
Sunday: 3 x 336m (8 lengths)
Saturday: 6 x 168m (4 lengths); 1 x 84m (2 lengths hard); 2 x 336m (8 lengths)

Monday was the first time I had ever had my laps timed.

Warm Up? I don't really warm up nor know truly how to think about warming up in the 42m pool.

Rest between sets of laps? I give myself enough rest until I feel ready to go again--have not really thought about timing it.

Breathing: every other stroke on the same side

Turning: open turn

My goals? I would like to get faster and stronger in the pool for all distances under a mile. How much faster? At this point, I just want to feel like I know how to get faster and make this less a mystery and more about execution. Right now, I am just grateful I can swim 1000m. But I know myself: the desire for speed and progress is just around the corner.


Thanks,
LC

ande
October 15th, 2008, 12:39 PM
congrats
those are dramatic improvements
20 to 17.5 for your 33
are you getting timed on a watch?
keep working on it you can drop your times even more

Ande


Been doing a "fast " set once a week which includes ALL OUT swims with alot of rest. Today I felt I really got turning over and went 17.5 from a push. That works out to a 52.5 pace. Hoping for that sub 60 at a meet at the end of month.

8/27
33.3 20sec
66.6 44sec

9/4
33.3 19sec
66.6 43sec

10/14
33.3 17.5sec

ande
October 15th, 2008, 12:49 PM
Hey LateComer

don't worry that you train in a 42 meter pool

you can do some 42 meter sprints

for shorter sprints you can
pick points in the pool that are around 15 meters and 25 meters
(use immovable items on the deck, ie lines on the bottom. )


then do repeat sprints to those points
you can accurately measure them or go with approximations

the point is to establish benchmarks then seek to improve them

Good luck

hope this helps

Ande


Hi Ande,
I am new to swimming having only learned this summer and having swum 1000m nonstop for the first time this past week.

I am wondering if you can help me improve my speed and perhaps just as importantly develop a program for speed and endurance given that I swim in a 42m pool and that I only know how to swim freestyle and a little backstroke. Trying to convert all the great advice I read about for 25y pools into my 42m workouts is not so obvious to me...

Right now, get into the pool after work and swim a set of freestyle laps depending on how much pool time remains (pool closes at 10pm).

Last few days:
Tuesday: rest
Monday: Morning--3 x 420m (10 lengths); Evening 1 x 840m (20 lengths; each was 77-87 seconds, with most around 83 seconds);
Sunday: 3 x 336m (8 lengths)
Saturday: 6 x 168m (4 lengths); 1 x 84m (2 lengths hard); 2 x 336m (8 lengths)

Monday was the first time I had ever had my laps timed.

Warm Up? I don't really warm up nor know truly how to think about warming up in the 42m pool.

Rest between sets of laps? I give myself enough rest until I feel ready to go again--have not really thought about timing it.

Breathing: every other stroke on the same side

Turning: open turn

My goals? I would like to get faster and stronger in the pool for all distances under a mile. How much faster? At this point, I just want to feel like I know how to get faster and make this less a mystery and more about execution. Right now, I am just grateful I can swim 1000m. But I know myself: the desire for speed and progress is just around the corner.


Thanks,
LC

rtodd
October 15th, 2008, 07:19 PM
I normally time myself on the pace clock, but this past time I was timed by someone off the paceclock. When I looked at the clock I saw 18, so the times are close. The real time will come at the end of the month at my meet.

rtodd
October 15th, 2008, 07:34 PM
Warm Up? I don't really warm up nor know truly how to think about warming up in the 42m pool.

I thought I swam in a wierd pool!

rtodd
October 22nd, 2008, 09:40 PM
8/27
33.3 20sec
66.6 44sec

9/4
33.3 19sec
66.6 43sec

10/14
33.3 17.5sec

10/22
three 2 lengthers (66.6 yds) from a push with good recovery
went 42, 42 and 43.

Then,
33.3 fly, went 23
33.3 back, went 24
33.3 breast, went 29


Pool was full of swimmers and water was extremely choppy. I swam them at a 100 yd pace, that is long and strong and breathed on every four strokes. Tomorrow a few fast 100's and one fast 133 IM. Friday a few fast one lengthers and Sunday go for broke.

rtodd
November 21st, 2008, 07:16 PM
Taper this week for a meet.

Went:

33.3 free, 17sec from a push.

My friend said 17.5, but I clearly watched the clock sweep to the top before I even pushed off.

Concentrated on a "monster" kick and turnover. I think the speed workouts and stroke workouts are helping.

Thanks Ande for this thread challenge.

ande
November 22nd, 2008, 02:54 PM
get a watch or find someone with one


Taper this week for a meet.

Went:

33.3 free, 17sec from a push.

My friend said 17.5, but I clearly watched the clock sweep to the top before I even pushed off.

Concentrated on a "monster" kick and turnover. I think the speed workouts and stroke workouts are helping.

Thanks Ande for this thread challenge.

rtodd
January 8th, 2009, 09:03 PM
8/27
33.3 20sec
66.6 44sec

9/4
33.3 19sec
66.6 43sec

10/14
33.3 17.5sec

10/22
three 2 lengthers (66.6 yds) from a push with good recovery
went 42, 42 and 43.

11/22
33.3 free, 17sec

1/8/09
33.3 17 sec
66.6 42 sec

Started to work in some speed for me upcoming meets. I love the 17 sec time since it is 25.5 yd speed from a push, but don't like the 66.6 time. I nailed the turn but I'm stuck at 42. The differential is not good. If I double the 17 and even add 4 sec, that's a 38. A 42 seems slow. I do the 33.3 with one breath. I do the 66.6 breathing on every stroke since this is how I swim a 100. I think I subconciously swam it like I was going to do another length. Next time I'll swim the 66.6 ALL OUT and try breathing every 4th and then no breath the last 10.

qbrain
January 9th, 2009, 10:36 AM
I do the 33.3 with one breath. I do the 66.6 breathing on every stroke since this is how I swim a 100.

Try timing yourself swimming the 33.3 with the same breathing pattern that you are going to use in your 100. If the differential between your 1 breath and every other breath is significant, then you know you need to focus on breathing smoothly so it flows with your stroke and doesn't slow you down much.

I don't have numbers, especially not for a 33.3, but my WAG is that there should only be about a second difference at most between your two breathing patterns.

Good luck at your meet.

ande
February 15th, 2009, 08:54 AM
anyone doing this

rtodd
February 15th, 2009, 02:53 PM
Not enough. We just started to devote a workout per week to all out speed, so I am happy about that. Last Friday was four 133.3 yd IM's all out on 5 minutes. Went 1:45, 1:55, 1:58, 2:00.

Will test the shorter repeats next week.

flippergirl
June 1st, 2009, 05:00 PM
This is what I did. It is not exactly Ande's workout. Here it goes. Bye the way thanks, for getting me started with these instructions.

I warmed up with various 200 sets of swim, kick, side kick, and some
25's and 50 of various strokes. Nothing strenuous.

I tested my 25 yd and my 50 yd. Wearing, I dunno, regular TYR bathing suit with wide straps, I pushed off the wall and timed myself with a clock.
25yd - 18 secs
50yd - 36 secs
This is no news to me. This is about where I have been since I started started training 3 times a week January 2009 working up to 2700yds.

I guess what I am asking is where do you want people to track their results? I plan on doing the training you suggest.

Next I did;12 X 25's on 45 sec intervals with every finish on 18 secs. Checked my heart rate for the first time. I am pretty sure it was 23 beats per 10 secs = 138 beats/min. Is 45 sec interval too much rest?

I am 52 years old and in good shape.

ande
June 2nd, 2009, 12:30 PM
Good job, keep working on it
You want speed, speed endurance, and endurance.
get someone to time you once a week

I also suggest increase your workout:
+ distance, (go from 2.7k to 3 - 4k)
+ intensity, (how hard you work, intervals, speed) &
+ frequency (go from 3x per week to 4, 5, or 6)

Make a decision that now is the time for you to start swimming faster.
Start acting as if you already are a faster swimmer.

You don't have to report every workout, just when you test.

Hope this helps you swim faster faster,

Ande


This is what I did. It is not exactly Ande's workout. Here it goes. Bye the way thanks, for getting me started with these instructions.

I warmed up with various 200 sets of swim, kick, side kick, and some
25's and 50 of various strokes. Nothing strenuous.

I tested my 25 yd and my 50 yd. Wearing, I dunno, regular TYR bathing suit with wide straps, I pushed off the wall and timed myself with a clock.
25yd - 18 secs
50yd - 36 secs
This is no news to me. This is about where I have been since I started started training 3 times a week January 2009 working up to 2700yds.

I guess what I am asking is where do you want people to track their results? I plan on doing the training you suggest.

Next I did;12 X 25's on 45 sec intervals with every finish on 18 secs. Checked my heart rate for the first time. I am pretty sure it was 23 beats per 10 secs = 138 beats/min. Is 45 sec interval too much rest?

I am 52 years old and in good shape.

flippergirl
June 5th, 2009, 11:33 PM
Good job, keep working on it
You want speed, speed endurance, and endurance.
get someone to time you once a week

I also suggest increase your workout:
+ distance, (go from 2.7k to 3 - 4k)
+ intensity, (how hard you work, intervals, speed) &
+ frequency (go from 3x per week to 4, 5, or 6)

Make a decision that now is the time for you to start swimming faster.
Start acting as if you already are a faster swimmer.

You don't have to report every workout, just when you test.

Hope this helps you swim faster faster,

Ande
Ande, This past week I increased frequency and maybe a little of yardage, definitely intensity and I dropped the 25yards from 18 to 15.83! This is a great jump. If I work on stroke correction I hope this spills over into my 50.
I am going to be on a chartered boat for a week so I won't get to swim in a pool but will continue to work on my stroke in open water off the coast of Carolina. And when I get back stick to the schedule.Thanks for your continued input!
PS Is there a place I am supposed to post my results?

50 yds- 25yds
6/19 36.50 6/19 16.50
6/5 36.32 6/5 15.83
6/1 36.00 6/1 18.00

ande
June 6th, 2009, 12:04 PM
flippergirl,

Congratulations, your improvement on your 25 is huge, it's not so horrible, way to go! YOur improving speed will spill over into every distance you swim.

I suggest you do BANDS during your week out of the water

ande


Ande, This past week I increased frequency and maybe a little of yardage, definitely intensity and I dropped the 25yards from 18 to 15.83! This is a great jump. If I work on stroke correction I hope this spills over into my 50.
I am going to be on a chartered boat for a week so I won't get to swim in a pool but will continue to work on my stroke in open water off the coast of Carolina. And when I get back stick to the schedule.Thanks for your continued input!
PS Is there a place I am supposed to post my results?
50 yds- 25yds
6/5 36.32 6/5 15.83
6/1 36.00 6/1 18.00

flippergirl
June 6th, 2009, 12:08 PM
Thanks, okay...I have a physical therapy band...I will do my excercises they taught me and check out about band use on the internet. Ahaha, tip 246 Bands! Got it.

ande
June 6th, 2009, 12:17 PM
do the motion of taking a swim stroke with your bands

just the part from where your hand
enters the water to where it
leaves the water

don't do an over arm recovery like you do when you're swimming,
just bring your amrs back the same way they came

you might have to double up bands to create more resistance
should be lots of places on the boat to anchor your bands
I prefer over head

ande


LINKS to Speed Training Programs:
Try them out, report your results.

Help My flutter Kick is Horrible
U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!


Help my SDK is Horrible
Help! My SDK is Horrible! - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums


Help my Speed is Horrible
Help My Speed is Horrible! - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums


Thanks, okay...I have a physical therapy band...I will do my excercises they taught me and check out about band use on the internet.

flippergirl
June 6th, 2009, 12:25 PM
Tip 246!

flippergirl
June 22nd, 2009, 09:59 AM
Ande, This past week I increased frequency and maybe a little of yardage, definitely intensity and I dropped the 25yards from 18 to 15.83! This is a great jump. If I work on stroke correction I hope this spills over into my 50.
I am going to be on a chartered boat for a week so I won't get to swim in a pool but will continue to work on my stroke in open water off the coast of Carolina. And when I get back stick to the schedule.Thanks for your continued input!
PS Is there a place I am supposed to post my results?

Posting my times:

50 yds- 25yds
6/19 36.50 6/19 16.50
6/5 36.32 6/5 15.83
6/1 36.00 6/1 18.00Posting my times

ande
June 22nd, 2009, 02:01 PM
flippergirl,

keep training and testing

how are you timing these sprints?

What sort of start are you doing?

What suit did you wear?


50 yds - 25yds

6/19 36.50 6/19 16.50

6/5 36.32 6/5 15.83

6/1 36.00 6/1 18.00


Posting my times

flippergirl
June 22nd, 2009, 07:29 PM
flippergirl,

keep training and testing

how are you timing these sprints?

What sort of start are you doing?

What suit did you wear?


50 yds - 25yds

6/19 36.50 6/19 16.50

6/5 36.32 6/5 15.83

6/1 36.00 6/1 18.00
Last friday I had to use the clock because I couldn't find someone to time me.
I wore a speedo tank with a pushoff start.

ande
June 23rd, 2009, 10:16 AM
Do you have a tech suit?
Do you have a stop watch?
Ask someone to time you

When you sprint for time
do the following:
1) Take in the biggest breath of air and hold hit
2) push off the wall as hard as you can
3) streamline as skinny ask you can
4) SDK (take 3 or 4 small fast kicks)
5) transition to flutter kick & break out
6) move your arms as fast as you can through a full stroke
7) kick your legs hard and fast the whole way splashing as much as you can
8) perfect touch


Last friday I had to use the clock because I couldn't find someone to time me.
I wore a speedo tank with a pushoff start.

flippergirl
June 23rd, 2009, 04:49 PM
Do you have a tech suit?
Do you have a stop watch?
Ask someone to time you

When you sprint for time
do the following:
1) Take in the biggest breath of air and hold hit
2) push off the wall as hard as you can
3) streamline as skinny ask you can
4) SDK (take 3 or 4 small fast kicks)
5) transition to flutter kick & break out
6) move your arms as fast as you can through a full stroke
7) kick your legs hard and fast the whole way splashing as much as you can
8) perfect touch

Hi Ande,
No I don't have a tech suit. When I feel I deserve that extra edge as a result of sticking to this and seeing I can get faster then I will be checking them out. I have decided to buy a stop watch tomorrow. Have to find out where to get a swimmer's stopwatch. Then it should be easier to pull someone aside to time me. I am sticking to my goals of swimming four times a week, 3000 yards and the "speed" drill. I must go to a family gathering in Boston fri, sat and sun so I plan on doing my test on Thursday this week.
Thank you for those extra tips!

flippergirl
July 10th, 2009, 02:02 PM
flippergirl,

keep training and testing

how are you timing these sprints?

What sort of start are you doing?

What suit did you wear?


50 yds - 25yds

6/19 36.50 6/19 16.50

6/5 36.32 6/5 15.83

6/1 36.00 6/1 18.00

Still tryin to keep track of my times:
and doing the 50 and 25 drills.

7/10 50yds 25yds
35.38 16.08 (Grabbed a guy with a stopwatch. His name just happened to be Ande!) :)

ande
July 10th, 2009, 02:15 PM
congrats you're improving, keep training to get faster

Times for 50 & 25 yd sprints

07/10 35.38 16.08
06/19 36.50 16.50
06/05 36.32 15.83
06/01 36.00 18.00

mctrusty
July 10th, 2009, 02:17 PM
Still tryin to keep track of my times:
and doing the 50 and 25 drills.

7/10 50yds 25yds
35.38 16.08 (Grabbed a guy with a stopwatch. His name just happened to be Ande!) :)

Way to go on breaking 36 in your 50!

flippergirl
July 10th, 2009, 02:24 PM
Way to go on breaking 36 in your 50!

Thanks!:bliss:

KEWebb18
July 10th, 2009, 05:52 PM
Ande,
I have a question--just because I am not sure how I do this correctly. My coach explained it to me but I need more explanation.

I can "usually" go about a 14.0 for a 25 sprint (SCY). However, during a recent sprint set, my times kept on getting slower (to at one point a 15.9).
I know that some of it is due to fatigue and lack of conditioning, but my coach told me that I was overswimming.

So how do I find the fine line between cranking my arms and kicking as hard as I can to be efficient with each stroke, as well as go as fast as I can?

Thanks!

ande
July 10th, 2009, 09:38 PM
it just takes practice, do

+ slow swimming concentrating on perfect technique with long smooth strokes

+ build swims

+ sprints


Ande,
how do I find the fine line between cranking my arms and kicking as hard as I can to be efficient with each stroke, as well as go as fast as I can?
Thanks!

Hammer2009
April 6th, 2010, 07:35 PM
Hi, I hope there is still interest in this thread!

First off, a little about me, I'm 32 year old guy, 6'2", swam competitively till I was 14 when I stopped for other sports. I've been pretty inactive for the last 6 years or so, and I started swimming again 5 weeks ago as part of a weight loss drive, because an old knee problem was flaring up from too much running. I've still about 10lbs to lose, which will have me at about 205lbs and 11/12% bodyfat, so i realise a little more weight loss should have a positive effect on my times.
I'm now hooked on swimming again, and am really trying to drop my times, which to be honest, are disappointingly bad. My best 25m time is a little slower than it was when I was 14....

So, here are my times at the moment (all SCM from a push start, just a normal speedo jammer, i don't expect to race, so can't justify the cost of high tech togs):
400 - 7:01
200 - 3:28
100 - 1:39.8
50 - 37.4s
25 - 16s

I'm swimming 5/6 times a week, roughly 90 minute sessions, along with 3-4 weights and rowing sessions per week. My weekly swim sessions currently are:

1. Endurance - 800m warmup, 2x1500m, 200 cooldown 4,000m total.(planning on building this to 4500m total)

2. Freestyle workout taken from this thread: U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Intermediate Swimming Workouts - By Andy (I can't hold those times, eg I do 100m in 1:41 or so and take 30s rest. My total time for everything but the 50's is longer than the time given here. 3,750m total.

3. 800 warmup, 8x125 kick (with fins), 10x50 sprint (about 44s average), 6x100 pull(with buoy and paddles) 200 cooldown. 3100m total.

4. 800 warmup, 2x50, 2x100, 2x200, 1x400, 2x200, 2x100, 2x50, 800 cooldown. 3,400m total.

5. 800 warmup, Ande's 12x25 from this thread (really struggled to do the last 25 without a breath), 20x25 on 1 min( took 2-3 breaths on each one, 18.5s average, then whatever is left of the minute rest) 8x100 easy, focus on long, smooth stroke and my turns, 200 cooldown. 2,600m total.

6. Same as 1.

I need to work on my turns, which are slow and leave me gasping for breath. Right now they are not much faster than my touch turns, and I feel cause me to swim slower due to oxygen deficit. I've found plenty of resources for perfecting turn technique, but what I can't find much on is how to deal with not breathing coming in, and not breathing for the stroke or two out, without drowning!

I seem to take around 18 strokes from a push start for 25m, sometimes 17, sometimes 19. This doesn't appear to change much even at different paces.

Any and all advice is appreciated, particularly with a view to tweaking my workouts for better effect (i put it together myself, so it probably isn't very good! I'm entirely open to changing it completely).

My goals: (Feel free to say if they are unrealistic!) I'd like to get my 100 to somewhere around 1:15, lower if possible, my 400 to 6 mins or less, and my 50 close to 30s, or lower if possible.

I don't really have access to any coaching or a masters group, so I'll have to go it alone for the most part.

Apologies for the length of the post, but I wanted to be as thorough as I could, so thanks if you've made it this far, and many thanks for any responses!

ande
April 7th, 2010, 10:37 AM
I hope there is still interest in this thread!
there is

you're 32, male, swam competitively till 14
inactive for the last 6 years or so
started swimming again 5 weeks ago as part of a weight loss drive,
knee problems
got 10lbs to lose & you'll weigh 205lbs
more weight loss should have a positive effect on my times.

current SCM from a push start times
400 - 7:01
200 - 3:28
100 - 1:39.8
50 - 37.4s
25 - 16s

you're swimming 5/6 times a week

your goals:
100 1:15 OR BETTER
400 6 mins or less
50 30 OR BETTER

Any and all advice is appreciated, particularly with a view to tweaking my workouts for better effect (i put it together myself, so it probably isn't very good! I'm entirely open to changing it completely).

THE MAIN THING IS
KEEP SHOWING UP,
KEEP TRAINING
KEEP LOSING WEIGHT
WORK ON IMPROVING YOUR SPEED AND GETTING IN BETTER SHAPE FOR LONGER SWIMS

YOU HAVE A SERIOUS DROP OFF BETWEEN YOUR 50 & 100 PACE
37.4 50 TIME
49.9 50 PACE FOR YOUR 100, (1:39.8)
WORK ON GETTING YOUR 100 FASTER
SEE HOW MUCH YOU CAN BRING IT DOWN OVER THE NEXT MONTH

READ SWIM FASTER FASTER

ANDE

Hammer2009
April 7th, 2010, 06:43 PM
Thanks for that Ande, your faster faster tips are great for getting me thinking about what's going on when I swim, I just notice little things that I wouldn't have been thinking about otherwise!

I did this training session tonight:
U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Intermediate Swimming Workouts - By Andy
and it reminded me why I stopped swimming in the first place! I did it as a completely freestyle session, and didn't do the swim from the flags thing.

I timed my first 100 at a pretty hard pace (not quite flat out, had the next 9 in mind!) and did it in 1:29.1, which I was pretty pleased with, as I was hoping to do it in about 1:33/34. I did the next few in 1:31, 33, 36 and then 38/39 for the final few. I was taking 45 secs rest between each. Is this too much? By number 4 I was ready to get out of the pool, burn my jammer and go to Burger King to start back on the 54lbs I've lost!

I did the 50's at a fairly consistent 44/45s, with a couple a bit faster and slower, with 30secs rest between each one. There wasn't a whole lot left in the tank by the time I finished the 100's.

It was really satisfying to complete this session, like I said, by the 4th 100 I really didn't think I'd be able to continue.

Now, my question for tonight, breathing. I'm breathing every stroke cycle, into the turn, and as soon as I surface after the turn. I know this isn't the way to do it, but any less frequently and I feel like my lungs will explode. Plus, even if I force myself to do it, I reckon my already poor times will really go to hell. Do I just need to man up and force myself to do it, or is there any way I should approach training to deal with this?

Thanks again for all your assistance!

ande
April 29th, 2010, 02:29 PM
you're welcome, just keep after it

I hope some folks will accept the challenge to improve their speed.
Start doing the sets, testing each week & posting their results here in
Help My Speed is Horrible! (http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11814)

ande



Thanks for that Ande, your faster faster tips are great for getting me thinking about what's going on when I swim, I just notice little things that I wouldn't have been thinking about otherwise!

I did this training session tonight:
U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Intermediate Swimming Workouts - By Andy (http://forums.usms.org/showpost.php?p=163448&postcount=15)
and it reminded me why I stopped swimming in the first place! I did it as a completely freestyle session, and didn't do the swim from the flags thing.

I timed my first 100 at a pretty hard pace (not quite flat out, had the next 9 in mind!) and did it in 1:29.1, which I was pretty pleased with, as I was hoping to do it in about 1:33/34. I did the next few in 1:31, 33, 36 and then 38/39 for the final few. I was taking 45 secs rest between each. Is this too much? By number 4 I was ready to get out of the pool, burn my jammer and go to Burger King to start back on the 54lbs I've lost!

I did the 50's at a fairly consistent 44/45s, with a couple a bit faster and slower, with 30secs rest between each one. There wasn't a whole lot left in the tank by the time I finished the 100's.

It was really satisfying to complete this session, like I said, by the 4th 100 I really didn't think I'd be able to continue.

Now, my question for tonight, breathing. I'm breathing every stroke cycle, into the turn, and as soon as I surface after the turn. I know this isn't the way to do it, but any less frequently and I feel like my lungs will explode. Plus, even if I force myself to do it, I reckon my already poor times will really go to hell. Do I just need to man up and force myself to do it, or is there any way I should approach training to deal with this?

Thanks again for all your assistance!

bzaks1424
September 9th, 2010, 05:03 PM
For what its worth - I had a proud moment last night. My practice was 2950 SCY and the very last set was 12 x 25 fast. The very last 25 I swam in 0:18 which to my knowledge is my all time record. Needless to say I was completely useless for the next 2-3 minutes, but I was proud! :banana:

ElaineK
September 10th, 2010, 03:11 PM
For what its worth - I had a proud moment last night. My practice was 2950 SCY and the very last set was 12 x 25 fast. The very last 25 I swam in 0:18 which to my knowledge is my all time record. Needless to say I was completely useless for the next 2-3 minutes, but I was proud! :banana:

:applaud:

sasho1999
April 30th, 2012, 08:05 AM
Hi Ande,

I've done my first testing today:

30.Apr.2012 SCM / All times I took by myself looking at the pace watch / All starts are from push / Kicking without board / Shaved ... face:

25 free - 15"
25 flutter kick - 27" (Help, my flutter kick is horrible) ))
25 fly - 19"
25 SDK - 26"
+++

I will check my 50m times when I swim in LCM.

Tomorrow I am going to include your advise in my training routine, but something is not very clear to me. You are saying:



1) do this set 2 or 3 times a week, 12 x 25 swim
3 EASY recovery concentrating on perfect form
1 as fast as possible for time
...
3) work on improving your flutter kick and SDK
do 2 x (4 x 25) swim
2 x (4 x 25) flutter kick
2 x (4 x 25) SDK


So, shall I do 1) or 3)? What rest intervals; what effort on 3)? I would like to improve my fly stroke technique and sprint times. Is there any sense to alternate fr/fly on above training? I am currently swimming 4 times per week, which can be increased to 5 hopefully.

ande
April 30th, 2012, 10:10 AM
Hi Ande,

I've done my first testing today:

30.Apr.2012 SCM / All times I took by myself looking at the pace watch / All starts are from push / Kicking without board / Shaved ... face:

25 free - 15"
25 flutter kick - 27" (Help, my flutter kick is horrible) ))
25 fly - 19"
25 SDK - 26"
+++
I will check my 50m times when I swim in LCM.
Tomorrow I am going to include your advise in my training routine, but something is not very clear to me. You are saying:
So, shall I do 1) or 3)? What rest intervals; what effort on 3)? I would like to improve my fly stroke technique and sprint times. Is there any sense to alternate fr/fly on above training? I am currently swimming 4 times per week, which can be increased to 5 hopefully.

Hey Sasho

congratulations on doing your first testing:

SCM
timed by looking at the pace clock
Push starts
No board on kicks:

12/04/30
25 free - 15" / 25 flutter k - 27" / 25 fly - 19" / 25 SDK - 26"
what kind of a suit did you wear?

Get a waterproof stop watch.
the best way to time your fast swims is to have someone time you
that way you can concentrate on swimming fast & your friend or volunteer can get your times
It would be really cool to have one friend time you and another friend video you.
(you don't need to video everytime, just occasionally, like once every 6 to 8 weeks)


I will check my 50m times when I swim in LCM.
OK but focus on 25's for now
get your times for 15 meters too


Today you plan to do some of my recommended sets

you asked:
So, shall I do 1) or 3)?
What rest intervals; what effort on 3)?
I would like to improve my fly stroke technique and sprint times.
Is there any sense to alternate fr/fly on above training?
I am currently swimming 4 times per week, which can be increased to 5 hopefully

Sasho I suggest you work on improving your free, fly , flutter kick & SDK
do this set:
Evens: are easy, when you finish a length rest on the wall 30 to 60 sec before starting your next FAST
Odds: are VERY FAST, AFAP, get your time then start your easy 10 sec later

6 x 25 free
6 x 25 free or back on easy / FLY on FAST
6 x 25 flutter kick
6 x 25 SDK
if you want you can rest a minute or 2 between each set of 6
you want your fast to be VERY FAST

you can also do 15 meter sprints instead of 25's

PUSH OFF HARD
Streamline skinny
Swim fast

you want to improve your fly technique
I really need to see what you're doing before I give a list of things to work on. have a friend with an Iphone or video recorder or an underwater video recorder make a video of you swimming fly fast
shoot head on and from the side and underwater from the side if possible
put a HD video on youtube and post a link here.

Also watch the very best betterflyers in the world and copy their technique.

Only swim fly fast or not at all
you can get most of your conditioning from swimming free
if you have or can get an underwater camera shoot

sasho1999
May 1st, 2012, 10:24 AM
Hi Ande,

Tks for advice! How many times per week shall I do the sets? I am going to ask my coach to include them in my workouts. I've read that you are doing Fast Fridays, is this enough?

I wore ordinary swimming briefs. At my level, the only real competitor which I have is myself, so I will stick to the briefs.

Re: underwater filming - this is quite tough to be organized. Above water seems feasible, though there are not many volunteers at 07:00 am )).

Have a great day!

P.s. I've seen what this lady Leslie has done at the Nationals - unbelievable!

__steve__
May 1st, 2012, 10:33 AM
It would be really cool to have one friend time you and another friend video you.

I just use the video footage for timing. It is very accurate and requires no volunteers.

ande
May 2nd, 2012, 03:25 PM
Hi Ande,
Tks for advice! How many times per week shall I do the sets? I am going to ask my coach to include them in my workouts. I've read that you are doing Fast Fridays, is this enough?
I wore ordinary swimming briefs. At my level, the only real competitor which I have is myself, so I will stick to the briefs.
Re: underwater filming - this is quite tough to be organized. Above water seems feasible, though there are not many volunteers at 07:00 am )).
Have a great day!
P.s. I've seen what this lady Leslie has done at the Nationals - unbelievable!


sure

How many times per week shall I do the sets?
2 to 5

ask your coach or do extra credit

are Fast Fridays enough?
NO, I swim fast other days of the week and modify workouts as meets approach to do more short fast stuff with rest

underwater filming - this is quite tough to be organized.
not really you just get a friend, who's a good swimmer and has an underwater camera. There's many very affordable ones

P.s. I've seen what this lady Leslie has done at the Nationals - unbelievable!

Leslie (http://www.usms.org/people/038W8) is quite remarkable and has really improved her ability. She's gone from being in the top 5 or 10 in her age group to the top of her age group in her focus events, 50 & 100 FL & BK. She's developed an excellent SDK. She keeps getting faster despite often training alone, injuries, illnesses, family obligations, & sleep deprivation.

one woman's miracle is another womans engineering.

read more about her.

Leslie's Blog (http://www.usms.org/forums/blog.php?u=4677)

High Intensity Training - by Leslie Livingston
Leslie is a self-coached sprint specialist who emphasizes race-pace training and underwater dolphin kicking. Her workouts focus on high-intensity training for the competitive sprinter.


SFF tip about Leslie Tip 335 Build a Fortress of Speed & Strength

sasho1999
May 7th, 2012, 04:57 AM
Hi Ande,

I had some timing last week. Here are the results:
03.05.12 I did your workout:

Evens: are easy, when you finish a length rest on the wall 30 to 60 sec before starting your next FAST
Odds: are VERY FAST, AFAP, get your time then start your easy 10 sec later

6 x 25 free
6 x 25 free or back on easy / FLY on FAST
6 x 25 flutter kick
6 x 25 SDK


LCM; Lane full of people trying to swim. All times taken by own watch chrono: Press the start button, then push from the wall. When I reach 25m mark -> press stop.

25 fr - 21.84 / 20.6 / 21.3

25 fl - 21.92 / 21.5 / 22.27
25 flutter kick - 30.7 / 29.08 / 29.15
25 SDK - 28.32 / 27.03 / 27.16



05.05.2012
On Saturday after the workout, my coach took my 50m times for all 4 strokes, LCM, from push; starting on 2:30 - 3:00:
fl - 42"
bk - too bad to post
br - 44"
fr - 38"
+++

From last two weeks I feel some definite improvement in my kicking: Flutter and SDK on face. I have always liked the breast kick, so I consider it as one of my advantages. My times for alll those kicks are quite equal. My problem remains flutter kick on the back - there I am slower by abt 50% (!!!) compared with kick on the face, though I am exercising same effort and trying to flutter my legs+feet in the same way. Any idea for improvement?

Have a great swim!

sasho1999
May 29th, 2012, 02:50 AM
Hey Sasho

congratulations on doing your first testing:

SCM
timed by looking at the pace clock
Push starts
No board on kicks:

12/04/30
25 free - 15" / 25 flutter k - 27" / 25 fly - 19" / 25 SDK - 26"
what kind of a suit did you wear?

Get a waterproof stop watch.
the best way to time your fast swims is to have someone time you
that way you can concentrate on swimming fast & your friend or volunteer can get your times
It would be really cool to have one friend time you and another friend video you.
(you don't need to video everytime, just occasionally, like once every 6 to 8 weeks)


I will check my 50m times when I swim in LCM.
OK but focus on 25's for now
get your times for 15 meters too


Today you plan to do some of my recommended sets

you asked:
So, shall I do 1) or 3)?
What rest intervals; what effort on 3)?
I would like to improve my fly stroke technique and sprint times.
Is there any sense to alternate fr/fly on above training?
I am currently swimming 4 times per week, which can be increased to 5 hopefully

Sasho I suggest you work on improving your free, fly , flutter kick & SDK
do this set:
Evens: are easy, when you finish a length rest on the wall 30 to 60 sec before starting your next FAST
Odds: are VERY FAST, AFAP, get your time then start your easy 10 sec later

6 x 25 free
6 x 25 free or back on easy / FLY on FAST
6 x 25 flutter kick
6 x 25 SDK
if you want you can rest a minute or 2 between each set of 6
you want your fast to be VERY FAST

you can also do 15 meter sprints instead of 25's

PUSH OFF HARD
Streamline skinny
Swim fast

you want to improve your fly technique
I really need to see what you're doing before I give a list of things to work on. have a friend with an Iphone or video recorder or an underwater video recorder make a video of you swimming fly fast
shoot head on and from the side and underwater from the side if possible
put a HD video on youtube and post a link here.

Also watch the very best betterflyers in the world and copy their technique.

Only swim fly fast or not at all
you can get most of your conditioning from swimming free
if you have or can get an underwater camera shoot
Hi Ande,

Will you look at my swimming and advice:

I swim fly side view - http://youtu.be/o5hJQlTKiiw
I swim fly front view - http://youtu.be/z98V_A6Yal4 :bow:
I swim easy free 50m - http://youtu.be/Rc_bf4J9EBA
I swim free 25m - http://youtu.be/8s5w5PrSeBw :cane:
+++

Tks in advance!
Sasho

ElaineK
May 29th, 2012, 03:02 PM
Hi Sasho :wave:!

I am no expert (far from it!), but I will be curious to hear what Ande will say about your fly. To me, it looked great! :applaud: I am working on my fly, too, so thanks for posting your video, so we can both learn from it.

Off the subject :hijack: , are you from Varna, Bulgaria? I visited Bulgaria (Ruse, Arbanassi, Veliko Turnovo, Abotonnka, Vidin) as part of a river cruise, in 2007, and love it!

Cheers!
:chug:

sasho1999
May 31st, 2012, 12:37 PM
Hi Elaine,

Tks for good words about my fly - they match exactly with my dreams :bed:

+++

Yes, I live in Varna. There are many nice things around here, but this being a swimming forum, I can say that we have a very nice outdoor pool which is open all through the year - even in winter months. Once you get used to it, then you do not want to swim under a roof. In summer, you can supplement your swimming workouts with a pleasant swimming in the sea! See for yourself:

DonF
June 3rd, 2012, 07:20 PM
I don't understand clearly your point 1 under "Training" does that mean go easy for 3 25s and then all out for 1 25 then repeat until you reach 12x25s?

ande
June 3rd, 2012, 07:26 PM
I don't understand clearly your point 1 under "Training" does that mean go easy for 3 25s and then all out for 1 25 then repeat until you reach 12x25s?

Yes or you can do odds easy & evens fast, it's just your fast needs to be very very very fast

DonF
June 3rd, 2012, 07:28 PM
Thanks for the quick response.

ElaineK
June 4th, 2012, 05:43 AM
Hi Elaine,

Tks for good words about my fly - they match exactly with my dreams :bed:

+++

Yes, I live in Varna. There are many nice things around here, but this being a swimming forum, I can say that we have a very nice outdoor pool which is open all through the year - even in winter months. Once you get used to it, then you do not want to swim under a roof. In summer, you can supplement your swimming workouts with a pleasant swimming in the sea! See for yourself:

Nice! :agree: You have a fantastic facility there. And, being next to the sea is awesome!

euphilos
September 11th, 2012, 06:48 AM
Hey Ande,

I want to start your program too.

Here are my current times for freestyle, SCM, push start, regular briefs:

25 - 18.85
50 - 39.05
75 - 1:03.95
100 - 1:31.20

I'll use this version for a speed session, from your first post:

2 x (4 x 25) swim
2 x (4 x 25) flutter kick
2 x (4 x 25) SDK

Will be doing it 3 times a week, and also 3 times weight training.

My goal is 29.9 for 50m by March 2013.

Thanks for the challenge!

Radu

Why Not
September 11th, 2012, 07:34 AM
Hey Ande,

I want to start your program too.

Here are my current times for freestyle, SCM, push start, regular briefs:

25 - 18.85
50 - 39.05
75 - 1:03.95
100 - 1:31.20

I'll use this version for a speed session, from your first post:

2 x (4 x 25) swim
2 x (4 x 25) flutter kick
2 x (4 x 25) SDK

Will be doing it 3 times a week, and also 3 times weight training.

My goal is 29.9 for 50m by March 2013.

Thanks for the challenge!

Radu

Dropping 10 seconds in time on the 50 in 8 months time is VERY ambitious. More realistic would be 5 seconds. And that would be quite an achievement. Let us know how you continue.

ande
September 13th, 2012, 12:57 PM
Hey Ande,
I want to start your program too.
Here are my current times for freestyle, SCM, push start, regular briefs:
25 - 18.85
50 - 39.05
75 - 1:03.95
100 - 1:31.20
I'll use this version for a speed session, from your first post:
2 x (4 x 25) swim
2 x (4 x 25) flutter kick
2 x (4 x 25) SDK
Will be doing it 3 times a week, and also 3 times weight training.
My goal is 29.9 for 50m by March 2013.
Thanks for the challenge!
Radu

hey Radu,
I'm curious to see how you'll progress
stay consistent and determined
good luck

fmracing
September 13th, 2012, 03:56 PM
Dropping 10 seconds in time on the 50 in 8 months time is VERY ambitious. More realistic would be 5 seconds.

I don't agree with this as written. It depends on many factors about where the OP is currently.

Whats current age?
How long have they been swimming?
How long in a coached atmosphere?
What does their stroke look like that yielded these times?

As someone that once dropped 34 seconds off personal bests in the 100y free in under 3 months (1:30 to :56), I feel 10 seconds in a 50 is doable in 6 months but it depends on many factors of the swimmer's current situation and how "maxed out" they are.

That said, I'm now training 12 months (6 days a week + 3 weights) just to try to drop 4-6 tenths in the 50. lol.

__steve__
September 14th, 2012, 07:35 AM
Did personal records at yesterday's workout:

25M free from a (loose, energy absorbing) block - 12.9* (twice), and pushed another one under 14 seconds**.

Been static at these for almost 2 years. Spent fervent efforts working on streamlined speed and kicking to breakthrough.


*
Filmed them and got the time through Windows Movie Maker and rounded the hundredth to the tenth

**
Forgot what it was to the tenth, but know for sure it was under 14

ElaineK
September 14th, 2012, 02:53 PM
Did personal records at yesterday's workout:

25M free from a (loose, energy absorbing) block - 12.9* (twice), and pushed another one under 14 seconds**.

Been static at these for almost 2 years. Spent fervent efforts working on streamlined speed and kicking to breakthrough.


*
Filmed them and got the time through Windows Movie Maker and rounded the hundredth to the tenth

**
Forgot what it was to the tenth, but know for sure it was under 14


Do we get to see the videos?

__steve__
September 14th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Do we get to see the videos?Why yes, I just happen to conveniently have them loaded
less of a drag - YouTube
swimming like that dude who swims pretty good - YouTube

fmracing
September 14th, 2012, 07:39 PM
Why yes, I just happen to conveniently have them loaded
less of a drag - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNFTQVA3ftY)
swimming like that dude who swims pretty good - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOds0TuZ_tA)


In the underwater vid, is it just me or is your head completely under? That'd be way too low imo.

mpinsky
September 14th, 2012, 08:18 PM
May have to try this with my new workout buddy since half the time I forget to look at the clock. I'll have to do some times tomorrow (though on past workouts, my rough estimate of 25 meters Free is 15 seconds, though I haven't timed anything full-on out yet).

I don't have a tech suit though. Bit too expensive for my price range. :(

__steve__
September 14th, 2012, 08:50 PM
In the underwater vid, is it just me or is your head completely under? That'd be way too low imo.It is. It keeps my feet higher. I have a pointed head anyhow

ElaineK
September 14th, 2012, 09:48 PM
In the underwater vid, is it just me or is your head completely under? That'd be way too low imo.

Thanks for posting your videos!

From the topside angle, it didn't look like your head was too low. I am no expert, but I thought the underwater view of your stroke looked good and balanced. :agree: And, your head doesn't look pointy to me. :shakeshead:

So, Steve, when/what/where is your next meet? :D

__steve__
September 15th, 2012, 06:01 AM
Thanks for posting your videos!

From the topside angle, it didn't look like your head was too low. I am no expert,


but I thought the underwater view of your stroke looked good and balanced. :agree: And, your head doesn't look pointy to me. :shakeshead:

So, Steve, when/what/where is your next meet? :D

I would like to go to Orlando for the SCM dixie meet but that's over 7 hours drive. Colombia SCM SC this winter for sure

I will lift my head and see what happens

ElaineK
September 15th, 2012, 10:49 AM
I would like to go to Orlando for the SCM dixie meet but that's over 7 hours drive. Colombia SCM SC this winter for sure

I will lift my head and see what happens

Come to the St. Nick's SCM meet at Georgia Tech, on December 15. :cheerleader:

Allen Stark
September 15th, 2012, 01:16 PM
Why yes, I just happen to conveniently have them loaded
less of a drag - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNFTQVA3ftY)
swimming like that dude who swims pretty good - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOds0TuZ_tA)
You swim with your arms very straight.If this is a sprint,fine,but otherwise it takes too much energy.It is impossible to be sure from that angle but there are hints you are leading with your elbows.If I am wrong,sorry, but I think you would benefit from working on EVF.

__steve__
September 15th, 2012, 02:55 PM
Thank you Allen, I just compared that to the only other static underwater front view I know of (Nystrand), and noticed extreme differences, namely sholder orientation which pretty much sets up the forearm. My torso also fish tails out of streamline, but I have minimized that some. I'll work those areas, head position, catch, and streamline

ElaineK
September 15th, 2012, 07:23 PM
You swim with your arms very straight.If this is a sprint,fine,but otherwise it takes too much energy.It is impossible to be sure from that angle but there are hints you are leading with your elbows.If I am wrong,sorry, but I think you would benefit from working on EVF.

Thanks for giving your expert critique, K.F., because what the heck do I know? :rolleyes:

Steve, listen to King Frog, because he gives great advice on ALL of the strokes; not just breaststroke. :agree:

So, Steve, what's your next avatar going to be? :banana:

__steve__
September 16th, 2012, 09:49 AM
My cat

Meow

fmracing
September 17th, 2012, 09:38 AM
It is. It keeps my feet higher. I have a pointed head anyhow


Head under is gonna add a crapload of drag though... making your title to that video, pretty ironic.

__steve__
September 17th, 2012, 10:54 AM
Head under is gonna add a crapload of drag though... I'm working on this and will see if head position changes anything

fmracing
September 17th, 2012, 02:52 PM
I'm working on this and will see if head position changes anything

It should. Burying your head is going to be kindof an inverse hydroplane shape. It'll cause the water to flow up over your head and neck forcing your shoulders deeper the faster you go. You'll likely have to devote at least a little additional force in your stroke downward to compensate and bring the shoulders back up rather than being able to concentrate as much force as possible in a backwards direction. You want to get up on top of the water in a sprint rather than way down in it. JMO.

__steve__
September 18th, 2012, 09:18 AM
Was able to lift head about 2" without effecting balance. Wasn't physically in a position to compare time because I was still recovering from heavy dryland duty. In addition as Col. Frog suggested, evf drills have been implemented but it will take some time before I can do it at high effort.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKnhDeoTk4Y&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I am very thankful for the suggestions (Allen and fm), more criticism is welcome and NEEDED

fmracing
September 18th, 2012, 02:09 PM
Was able to lift head about 2" without effecting balance.

Actually I think it improved your balance. This new video looks MUCH better to me. Hard to say for sure the changes it caused, since we're only looking at 10-15 seconds of video on two occasions but the second definitely fixed the low head issue i saw.

__steve__
September 18th, 2012, 03:08 PM
Cool.

I think the low head was from lazy posture.

fmracing
September 18th, 2012, 04:17 PM
Cool.

I think the low head was from lazy posture.


Could have been laziness but I'd think more likely maybe it was just exaggeration of what you thought you needed to do. Either way, do it like the second vid.

euphilos
November 1st, 2012, 08:46 AM
Hello Ande,

I've just completed my first 6-week cycle of your program, and I'm really happy with the results.

Here are my times so far (SCM, push start, timed by a friend, regular briefs - jammers didn't arrive in time for testing):

25m free

11/1 - 16.74
10/24- 17.58
10/17- 17.19
10/10- 17.41
10/3 - 17.62
9/13 - 18.85

50m free

11/1 - 34.45
10/25- 34.77
10/12- 36.43
10/5 - 36.90
9/13 - 39.05

75m free

10/17 - 0:56.68
9/13 - 1:03.95

100m free

10/18- 1:20.11
9/13 - 1:31.20

25 m free kick

10/25- 26.32
10/17- 24.65
10/10- 25.25
10/3 - 26.91

Big thanks!

Radu

ande
November 5th, 2012, 10:46 AM
congratulations & you're welcome

you've made excellent progress

keep working on it all, especially your kick, fast kicking is the key to fast swimming and your kick showed some improvement then a reversal,
get to where you can kick a 25 under 20
be fierce!


Hello Ande,

I've just completed my first 6-week cycle of your program, and I'm really happy with the results.

Here are my times so far (SCM, push start, timed by a friend, regular briefs - jammers didn't arrive in time for testing):

25m free

11/1 - 16.74
10/24- 17.58
10/17- 17.19
10/10- 17.41
10/3 - 17.62
9/13 - 18.85

50m free

11/1 - 34.45
10/25- 34.77
10/12- 36.43
10/5 - 36.90
9/13 - 39.05

75m free

10/17 - 0:56.68
9/13 - 1:03.95

100m free

10/18- 1:20.11
9/13 - 1:31.20

25 m free kick

10/25- 26.32
10/17- 24.65
10/10- 25.25
10/3 - 26.91

Big thanks!

Radu

euphilos
December 28th, 2012, 10:13 AM
Hello everybody and happy hollidays!

Iím posting the next round of results, after a new set of 6 weeks following Andeís program (SCM, push start, timed by a friend, Yingfa jammers for the final tests, briefs for the others).

Iíve started this program with the goal of going under 30 seconds in the 50m freestyle by March 2013. Itís worked great so far, and I think I have a good chance of making it. Iím going to start training in a 50m pool, with block-starts, and Iíll keep posting my times.

Here is a clip that shows how my sprinting looks like right now, and any advice is appreciated.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSCarsOs_vM


25m free

12/23 - 15.15
12/14 - 15.68
12/7 - 17.30
11/29 - 17.05
11/23 - 16.11
11/7 - 16.70
11/1 - 16.74


50m free

12/22 - 32.78
12/14 - 34.10
11/29 - 33.78
11/23 - 33.95
11/1 - 34.45


75m free

12/6 - 56.30
10/17 - 56.68


100m free

12/7 - 1:18.00
10/18 - 1:20.11


25m free kick

12/23 - 22.96
12/14 - 23.29
12/7 - 24.78
11/29 - 24.71
11/23- 26.23
11/7 - 26.08
10/25 - 26.32


25m sdk

12/22 - 22.76
12/14 - 24.67

Allen Stark
December 28th, 2012, 10:50 AM
Hello everybody and happy hollidays!

I’m posting the next round of results, after a new set of 6 weeks following Ande’s program (SCM, push start, timed by a friend, Yingfa jammers for the final tests, briefs for the others).

I’ve started this program with the goal of going under 30 seconds in the 50m freestyle by March 2013. It’s worked great so far, and I think I have a good chance of making it. I’m going to start training in a 50m pool, with block-starts, and I’ll keep posting my times.

Here is a clip that shows how my sprinting looks like right now, and any advice is appreciated.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSCarsOs_vM


25m free

12/23 - 15.15
12/14 - 15.68
12/7 - 17.30
11/29 - 17.05
11/23 - 16.11
11/7 - 16.70
11/1 - 16.74


50m free

12/22 - 32.78
12/14 - 34.10
11/29 - 33.78
11/23 - 33.95
11/1 - 34.45


75m free

12/6 - 56.30
10/17 - 56.68


100m free

12/7 - 1:18.00
10/18 - 1:20.11


25m free kick

12/23 - 22.96
12/14 - 23.29
12/7 - 24.78
11/29 - 24.71
11/23- 26.23
11/7 - 26.08
10/25 - 26.32


25m sdk

12/22 - 22.76
12/14 - 24.67

It looks like you,are dropping your elbows on the pull.Either EVF(high elbows) or straighter arm (windmill) would be faster.

Why Not
December 28th, 2012, 03:47 PM
Hello Radu

You should work on your stroke efficiency. You need 28 strokes on a 25 meter, that is way to much. If you count the achieved time to it, it is 28 + 16 = 44. I can do a 50 in 29 seconds, but only need 16 strokes on a 25.
When I see your kicking, your ankles seem a bit stiff. They act like barriers in the water instead of being propulsive. (specially in the underwater phase) On youtube you will find some excercises to loosen your ankles a bit up

Succes!!

Will you be attending the european ch in Eindhoven in 2013?

Syd
December 29th, 2012, 07:40 AM
Hello everybody and happy hollidays!

Iím posting the next round of results, after a new set of 6 weeks following Andeís program (SCM, push start, timed by a friend, Yingfa jammers for the final tests, briefs for the others).

Iíve started this program with the goal of going under 30 seconds in the 50m freestyle by March 2013. Itís worked great so far, and I think I have a good chance of making it. Iím going to start training in a 50m pool, with block-starts, and Iíll keep posting my times.

Here is a clip that shows how my sprinting looks like right now, and any advice is appreciated.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSCarsOs_vM


25m free

12/23 - 15.15
12/14 - 15.68
12/7 - 17.30
11/29 - 17.05
11/23 - 16.11
11/7 - 16.70
11/1 - 16.74


50m free

12/22 - 32.78
12/14 - 34.10
11/29 - 33.78
11/23 - 33.95
11/1 - 34.45


75m free

12/6 - 56.30
10/17 - 56.68


100m free

12/7 - 1:18.00
10/18 - 1:20.11


25m free kick

12/23 - 22.96
12/14 - 23.29
12/7 - 24.78
11/29 - 24.71
11/23- 26.23
11/7 - 26.08
10/25 - 26.32


25m sdk

12/22 - 22.76
12/14 - 24.67


You need to work on your hand entry, too.

6919

A screen shot from your video.

You are creating a lot of turbulence as you enter the water. With all that turbulence you will never be able to get a solid 'grip' on the water. You are compensating by increasing your stroke rate. This is very inefficient. 28 strokes for 25M is way too much. You should be aiming in the 16 - 20 range. But in order to do that you need to really work each stroke and you won't be able to do that with all that white water around.

You need to think of spearing your hand into the water at an angle, fingertips first, trying to create the least amount of disturbance as possible.

Check out
http://youtu.be/s3HhNlysFDs which demonstrates a really smooth hand entry.

__steve__
December 29th, 2012, 08:23 AM
euphilos,


Feedback thus far from above:


You are dropping your elbows on the pull. Either EVF(high elbows) or straighter arm (windmill)
You should work on your stroke efficiency
your ankles seem a bit stiff
You are creating a lot of turbulence as you enter the water


Your "slow" video shows elbow first catch clearly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQxAkU6mWLk

You swim reasonably fast for such incredible inefficiency (32 seconds 50m taking 60 strokes). Fixing your catch would directly increase distance each stroke and speed.

euphilos
December 29th, 2012, 12:32 PM
Hello Radu

You should work on your stroke efficiency. You need 28 strokes on a 25 meter, that is way to much. If you count the achieved time to it, it is 28 + 16 = 44. I can do a 50 in 29 seconds, but only need 16 strokes on a 25.
When I see your kicking, your ankles seem a bit stiff. They act like barriers in the water instead of being propulsive. (specially in the underwater phase) On youtube you will find some excercises to loosen your ankles a bit up

Succes!!

Will you be attending the european ch in Eindhoven in 2013?

Thanks for the advice, I've been working on my ankle flexibility since I started Ande's program (in September). I do 10-20 minutes of stretching each day, and I hope it will work in time.

Regarding efficiency, I can see I'm spinning pretty much in place, I'll try to improve it. I can decrease the stroke count if I swim slowly - like 18 strokes on a 25m - but it goes up when sprinting all out. And if I don't go all-out the times increase.

I'd really like to go to Eindhoven, but that depends if I make my qualifying time - 29.5 in the 50 free for the 30-34 age group.

Radu

euphilos
December 29th, 2012, 12:55 PM
It looks like you,are dropping your elbows on the pull.Either EVF(high elbows) or straighter arm (windmill) would be faster.

Thanks, I'll probably try straight arm, it seems easier to learn it than to correct a bad habit. Though EVF would pay off for longer distances as well.

euphilos
December 29th, 2012, 01:13 PM
You need to work on your hand entry, too.

You need to think of spearing your hand into the water at an angle, fingertips first, trying to create the least amount of disturbance as possible.

Check out
http://youtu.be/s3HhNlysFDs which demonstrates a really smooth hand entry.

I know I tend to punch the water when I sprint. I have a smooth hand entry at lower speeds. Perhaps I'll be able to improve my efficiency and lower my stroke rate, which will give my hands more time for a cleaner entry.

The video shows a really nice stroke, I guess the swimmer has an excellent kick to keep it so fluent.

Thanks,
Radu

Why Not
December 29th, 2012, 02:57 PM
Hello Radu

Great you take te feedback in a positive way. About your ankles; if you look at them under water the feet and your underleg make a 90 degree angle. That causes a lot of drag and slowes you down. Next time in the pool try out for fun a steamlined push off from the wall with the feet likes you have them on the video and push off with the feet streamlined. I think it will differ a couple of meters. With the SDK on the video you have them okay.
For two years when I was back into swimming I sprintes like you did on the video (spinning with the arms) and it took me to 32 seconds on the 50 free. Then I met this coach who started me to teach tyhe right technique:
1. Hand entry as far as possible in front of you ( I did not do that)
2. Hand and underarm as soon as possible vertikal ( I did no do that)
3. finish the pull by pushing the water besides my hips (My hands came out the water before my hips)

Then I had only to concentrate my stroke rate, the less the better. First it was hard but now I benefit from this advice. I need 13 strokes to do a 25. Time still 17 seconds.
In a sprint I do 16 strokes and my time is 14 seconds.