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View Full Version : Another rules and turn question, this time IM



Edward The Head
April 21st, 2003, 11:15 AM
I have looked through the rules and either they have changed since I looked at them a couple of years ago or I am remembering wrong. Anyway here's my problem.

I have been told my flip turns are bad, I haven't seen this but that's not the point. I reciently changed my free style turn. Now instead of turning over near/around the wall I stay on my back until I break the water then turn over with my first stroke.

The rule as I remembered it was that you have to do Fly, Back, Breast and then anything except the other three strokes. I did not find anything like this in the current rules but am worried that it may look like I am doing a backstroke when I am not.

I talked to my coach about it and he looked it up as well but could find nothing saying that I couldn't do it. Also will I have a problem under the FINA rules, I will be swimming in Ireland in a few weeks and do not want problems there either.

Rob Copeland
April 21st, 2003, 11:41 AM
Edward,

For USMS and FINA Masters –
On the breast to free turn, the swimmer must touch the wall as if making a breaststroke finish, “the body shall be on the breast and the touch shall be made with both hands simultaneously at, above, or below the surface of the water.” “Once a legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner.”

For any free to free turn within an IM, “Upon completion of each length, the swimmer must touch the wall.”

You are allowed to push off on your front, side or back and take as many kicks as you like, typically fly or flutter, as long as your head breaks the surface of the water within 15 the first 15 meters. In IM, once you break the surface of the water you are allowed to swim any stroke EXCEPT Butterfly, Backstroke, or Breaststroke.

With that being said, we are always at the mercy of the meet officials to properly understand the rules and accurately see what the swimmers are doing.

Janis
April 22nd, 2003, 12:38 PM
As the last leg of the IM I cannot see one going the full 15 meters allowed under water but it is possible so I don't know how far you go before you surface. Many officials look at what is going on under the water, and most know that many come off the wall on the back after a flip turn, then turn over prone as they make their way to the surface. As an official I would call an objection to surfacing while on the back even if you turn over during your first stroke.

Edward The Head
April 22nd, 2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Janis
As the last leg of the IM I cannot see one going the full 15 meters allowed under water but it is possible so I don't know how far you go before you surface. Many officials look at what is going on under the water, and most know that many come off the wall on the back after a flip turn, then turn over prone as they make their way to the surface. As an official I would call an objection to surfacing while on the back even if you turn over during your first stroke.

I don't go 15 meters underwater so that's not a problem. I do however not roll over until I just break the surface or just below, I know I do not do any back stroke strokes but turn by pulling underwater as I turn.

Can you tell me as an official why you would object? Also should I talk to an official before the meet to tell them what I plan on doing? I think that as of right now I will stick with this turn as it is much more consitant and faster for me. I do not what to be DQed though for a turn. Also is there someone that I can ask to make sure?

MegSmath
April 22nd, 2003, 04:48 PM
It's not clear to me whether you're talking about intermediate turns within a single stroke, or transition turns from one stroke to the next. But assuming you're talking about intermediate turns, USMS rule 101.5.2 states:


In an event designated freestyle, the swimmer may swim any style, except that in a medley relay or individual medley event, freestyle means any style other than butterfly, breaststroke, or backstroke.

So if you push off on your back and then turn over, I'd say there's a very good chance an official will deem that you are swimming backstroke and disqualify you for swimming backstroke during the freestyle leg.

It would also depend upon how long you stay on your back before you flip over onto your stomach. I would have to see your turn before I could say whether I would disqualify you or not.

Janis
April 25th, 2003, 10:48 AM
To be a backstroke doesn't even take a stroke of any kind on your back, just being past the vertical towards the back qualifies as a back stroke. (As a matter of fact being prone, butterfly kicking all the way across the pool is a butterfly even if you do no stroke that looks like butterfly). There was a discussion amongst officials about how far a person could go on their back underwater before being deemed a backstroke. Although no definite measure was named it seemed to be that if it looked like the swimmer came off the flip turn on the back if they proceeded to turn over in the process of making their way to the surface that would not be a disqualification. If you are traveling underwater on the back and it doesn't look like you are even making a move to be prone and you surface with shoulders being past the vertical toward the back then you are on your back whether you take a stroke or not.

I myself come off on my back from a flip turn also and I dolphin on my side until about halfway to the surface then get completely over by the time I am at the surface.

Now that is just my take on the question. You could write to the head of the officials committee for a ruling.