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jnbaker
September 29th, 2008, 09:46 AM
What seed times do you use when registering for Master's meets?

A) your best time in a master's meet
B) Your most recent time
C) What you think you will swim for this particular meet
D) other

I have been going with 'C', but am curious what other folks do...

knelson
September 29th, 2008, 09:56 AM
C is the best answer.

mjgold
September 29th, 2008, 11:30 AM
What happens if you put NT and then swim really fast? My first meet is in a couple of weeks, and when I had to register, I had no idea how fast (or slow) I was going to swim my events. I'm registered for the 50 and 100 BR, and I've been moving pretty quick as of late. Can you get in trouble for that?

pwolf66
September 29th, 2008, 12:37 PM
Well, 'in trouble' is such a subjective term. In my circle of friends, sandbagging, aka 'pulling a fortress', will subject you to endless ridicule and scorn. Entering an NT when you have never swam that event is OK. I still try to put an estimated time down.

I put my best time in that course for the last 12 months. If I don't have a time for that event, I convert a time from a different course if I do have it. Example, I converted my best SCY 100 Free to LCM for my LCM National 100 Free seed time.

Now there are people, who will choose to swim back to back events and will, even tho they are very fast swimmers, put an NT entry time for the first event to try and gain as much recovery time as possible. Some of them even try to justify this by indicating that the meet director OKed this questionable behavoir.

Paul

knelson
September 29th, 2008, 12:39 PM
You won't get in trouble, but it's poor form because you should be swimming in faster heats. Even a rough estimate of your time is better than entering with NT.

jnbaker
September 29th, 2008, 12:40 PM
What happens if you put NT and then swim really fast?

My college roommate did that in his first master's meet. He was a good college swimmer, took a couple of years off, and started competing masters around age 25. He trained a bit, but really had no idea how fast he would go, so entered with NT. He ended up in heats with 70 to 90 year old swimmers who he beat by quite a bit. Some of the other folks in his heats were a little ticked off at him.

My advice would be to swim your event all out in practice before registering for a meet to at least get a ball park idea of what seed time to use.

ourswimmer
September 29th, 2008, 12:44 PM
What happens if you put NT and then swim really fast?

You may feel sort of silly. You'll be in the slowest heat, along with some true beginners and/or some people 4x your age. In the 100, you could lap someone. Given what you have posted about your practice times, I would recommend that you see whether or not the meet director can change your NTs to some seed times based on those practice times. If they can seed you properly, you and the people in that slowest heat will all have more fun and swim better.

The Fortress
September 29th, 2008, 01:35 PM
Now there are people, who will choose to swim back to back events and will, even tho they are very fast swimmers, put an NT entry time for the first event to try and gain as much recovery time as possible. Some of them even try to justify this by indicating that the meet director OKed this questionable behavoir.

I'd do it again in a heartbeat too. Although my latest ploy is either not to sign up for back-to-back events (and byatch about it because they're almost always fly/back) or scratch.

Since I get constantly ragged on and since the fly-back events have been back to back in virtually every meet I can remember swimming in the last year (and are for my next one), I have ceased to feel any guilt over my seed times should I enter them.

And, uh, who won all the rubber duckies this weekend in his heats? Not me!

However, I typically aim for Option C.

chowmi
September 29th, 2008, 01:49 PM
Oh I think about this alot in event planning!!!

Depends on what event, what meet, what your goal is, and relative event position.

Like Paul says, if it's back to back events, or I am going for a split time, I will likely enter profoundly slow times so I am taken out of the seeding processs. But just in case my NT is not accepted, i'll enter a real time (like a 2:00 100 free or 5:00 200 free).

At Nationals, I enter with my very fastest actual reasonable relatively recent masters time. Signal you intend to swim fast. I can swim slow and to the side lanes every day in practice, i'm not paying over $1,000 to go to nationals and then try to avoid racing or being raced.

At selected local/zone/regional meets where it is mixed men and women heats, it seems customary to slightly but appropriately low ball times. You don't want to enter your time too slow (sandbag and not good racing, what's the point?), and you don't want to enter too fast (get your butt kicked by all the people who slightly and uniformly sandbagged and now are causing huge wake). There's a delicate balance there.

I never enter with a time faster than I have actually swum.

Blackbeard's Peg
September 29th, 2008, 01:51 PM
My advice would be to swim your event all out in practice before registering for a meet to at least get a ball park idea of what seed time to use.

TO coincide with option C as presented in the first post, even if it has been a few years, this is the best option for you, the hosts and your fellow competitors. Using your practice time is much better ettiquite. Even if you have a huge differential in your race, you were plenty responsible enough to get things into the right places.

mjgold
September 29th, 2008, 02:15 PM
You may feel sort of silly. You'll be in the slowest heat, along with some true beginners and/or some people 4x your age. In the 100, you could lap someone. Given what you have posted about your practice times, I would recommend that you see whether or not the meet director can change your NTs to some seed times based on those practice times. If they can seed you properly, you and the people in that slowest heat will all have more fun and swim better.

Well, I've only been swimming for 5 weeks, and when I registered, it was only 3 weeks, so I hadn't even swum a full 50 breast. It was just the stroke I was most comfortable with, and I really wanted to go to the meet. But, that's a good idea. I think I will try and get in contact with the meet director.

RobbieD
September 29th, 2008, 02:58 PM
I'm doing my first regular meet in a really long time this weekend and when I registered I pretty much pulled some numbers out of my ass that sounded at least moderately right. I don't think I've ever entered anything without a time.

I haven't swam in a meet since like '98 and I don't train in meters so I have no idea where I'm really going to come out. But as a general rule I think you should enter your best time of the last year for seeding, as long as you have one. There's 2 more meets that I want to sign up for but I'm waiting for this weekend so I can base my entry on some real swims from this century.

knelson
September 29th, 2008, 03:06 PM
But as a general rule I think you should enter your best time of the last year for seeding, as long as you have one.

I think it depends. I can usually predict my times to within a second or two, so I enter what I think I will swim. For an in-season, non-taper meet I know I'm not going to swim close to my best times, so there's really no point in entering with those times. If you're the kind of swimmer who can swim close to personal bests at any time of the season then perhaps that strategy makes sense.

aquaFeisty
September 29th, 2008, 03:19 PM
I go with C for in-season meets... As Kirk noted, there's no point in me entering my shaved times from the year before because I won't be close. NOW, for people still on the rapid-improvement curve (usually people in their first couple years of competing or youngsters under 24) this is a pretty decent method...

For shave and taper meets, I usually enter my times from the previous year's "big" meet. Sometimes this completely backfires, as it did at SCY Nats this year when I entered the meet not yet knowing I was pregnant and swam some pretty slowwww times 11 weeks pregnant and quite nauseous.

dwlovell
September 29th, 2008, 03:49 PM
My college roommate did that in his first master's meet. He was a good college swimmer, took a couple of years off, and started competing masters around age 25. He trained a bit, but really had no idea how fast he would go, so entered with NT. He ended up in heats with 70 to 90 year old swimmers who he beat by quite a bit. Some of the other folks in his heats were a little ticked off at him.

My advice would be to swim your event all out in practice before registering for a meet to at least get a ball park idea of what seed time to use.

Darn, this is exactly my story for a meet upcoming on Sunday. Except I am 10 years out of college and only back in training for about a month. I put No Time because I read in the Master's regulations that mirepresenting seed times can get you in trouble. I didn't really know what misrepresenting meant, I thought maybe I could only put a time from another Master's meet, so I put No Time.

How grievous an offense is this to etiquette? I will see if I can get them changed.

mjgold
September 29th, 2008, 03:58 PM
That's what I did. I thought you could only put times from meets which led to some confusion about how you can ever enter a 400 or 800 free when they all say "No NT Entries". I hadn't even been swimming for a month, so I did what I thought I was supposed to do. If someone gets pissed at me for trying to follow the rules, I don't have any control over that. Now that I know you are just supposed to estimate your times, it shouldn't come up again.

pwolf66
September 29th, 2008, 04:01 PM
And, uh, who won all the rubber duckies this weekend in his heats? Not me!


Um, check the times. Those were from SCY Nats. And I only beat them by about .5 seconds each. :thhbbb: :thhbbb: :thhbbb:

That Guy
September 29th, 2008, 04:18 PM
Bonus points for pulling the anti-fort: enter an event with a ridiculously fast time (e.g. 39 seconds for the 100 free) and then enter the next event with NT, so that you swim two heats back to back.

Double bonus points if you flex conspicuously when you get back on the blocks for the second event.

Triple donut bacon bonus points if someone calls you a sandbagger following the second event.

RobbieD
September 29th, 2008, 04:53 PM
If you're the kind of swimmer who can swim close to personal bests at any time of the season then perhaps that strategy makes sense.

I guess I was always kind of weird in that I would break personal bests at the most unimportant and unexpected meets. So any day was as good as any other for me. I figure that I might as well swim with the fastest group I can hang with.

jnbaker
September 29th, 2008, 04:58 PM
How grievous an offense is this to etiquette? I will see if I can get them changed.

In my roommates case, he got a few dirty looks, and one snide comment like, "you may want to enter faster times in your next meet". My roommate is a really nice guy, and stopped to explain what happened, which circulated amongst the older competitor's pretty quickly. He didn't get any comments for the rest of his events, but still got a few dirty looks.

It wasn't that big of a deal looking back on it now....and I agree that the letter of the law is a little hard to interpret.

My buddy swam all 200's that day. He swam the 200 IM in around 2:15 that day while the rest of his heat finished in, like, 6 - 8 minutes. There was a REALLY big difference. If you're only doing 50's, the difference won't be as pronounced.

dwlovell
September 29th, 2008, 05:01 PM
In my roommates case, he got a few dirty looks, and one snide comment like, "you may want to enter faster times in your next meet". My roommate is a really nice guy, and stopped to explain what happened, which circulated amongst the older competitor's pretty quickly. He didn't get any comments for the rest of his events, but still got a few dirty looks.

It wasn't that big of a deal looking back on it now....and I agree that the letter of the law is a little hard to interpret.

My buddy swam all 200's that day. He swam the 200 IM in around 2:15 that day while the rest of his heat finished in, like, 6 - 8 minutes. There was a REALLY big difference. If you're only doing 50's, the difference won't be as pronounced.

Ok, well, I am in 50's and 100's, I will ask the coach and see if there is enough time to change it. (Meet is hosted in the facility where I swim).

mjgold
September 29th, 2008, 05:14 PM
I'm in 50s and 100s too, so hopefully I won't look like a d-bag.

knelson
September 29th, 2008, 05:33 PM
Don't sweat it too much. This kind of thing happens at just about every meet.

That Guy
September 29th, 2008, 07:29 PM
It's Masters. Have fun. And bacon!

SwimStud
September 29th, 2008, 08:34 PM
It's not the Olympics!

If you're Sandbagging so you can scoop a gong or something then, it's a bit shallow. If it's just to get in all your events and enjoy yourelf then I think it's fine. I understand it can slow the meet but really, if the meet is that huge, then it's an all day thing anyhow!

I usually go with my previous best time, or the previous year's time.

Kurt Dickson
September 29th, 2008, 09:56 PM
It's masters--it shouldn't matter and people that make a big deal about it suck.

I, like others, usually sandbag a little (like a 1-2 seconds on a 100-200 and 3-4 seconds on a 500) in case I have a stroke or don't train as much as I thought I was going to.

I've been to a few Arizona meets where the best heat in distance events is the first one because everyone puts no time, which is kind of annoying if you are waiting around for a race.

I've been accused of sandbagging in the past. My question: if you enter a time that is still number one seed--does that make you a sandbagger?

tjrpatt
September 29th, 2008, 10:04 PM
Just put a time that you know that you can do at this point.

Allen Stark
September 29th, 2008, 10:08 PM
I always enter the time I think I'll do.

osterber
September 30th, 2008, 11:55 AM
My views are rather well documented on this issue. :-) You should seed yourself with your best estimation of the time you will swim at the meet. In most cases, something along the lines of your best time over the past year or so is probably a good estimate.

Sandbagging, IMHO, is bad sportsmanship. The point of having a meet is just that - to meet. The purpose of a meet is to swim against other people and race. You may be happy to swim in heat 1, and lap everyone in the 100 free. But if you belonged in the last heat, there are swimmers who are swimming in that heat who are counting on YOU to be in the last heat also, to race against them. They paid their entry fees on the expectation that they would get the opportunity to race against people of similar speed. If you take yourself out of the proper seeding, then you are hurting their swim.

If you want to swim by yourself and sandbag and blow people out of the water... go find a lane in a pool somewhere and do it where you're only dealing with yourself. At a meet, other people expect to race against you. Otherwise, they'd all just keep swimming at practice.

Also, those people in heat 1 that you're blowing away -- they don't like that. You're subjecting them to embarrassment for your own self interest. Not cool.

At the Masters champs that I run, we explicitly reserve the right to adjust your seed time if it is obviously incorrect.

Last year, we started a contest at our championship meet to see who could have the best seed times. Swimmers who matched their seed times exactly got a $10 Starbucks card on the spot. We had 8 winners.

We posted lists on the web site about the seed time winners (exact match), honorable mentions (within 0.10 seconds), top 50 seeders, worst 50 seeders, and the full list of how every swimmer rated in their seeding ability.

Our average "seed error" across almost 4500 swims was about 3.6 seconds per 100 yards, or about 4%.

You can see our full analysis here (scroll down to the bottom):

http://www.meetresults.com/2008/nelmscscy/results.shtml

-Rick

mjgold
September 30th, 2008, 12:28 PM
I totally agree. I think it's kind of messed up to intentionally put a time much slower than you know you can swim. I brought up my situation because I don't think it is a good tactic, and I was worried that everyone would think I'm a jerk even though I didn't intentionally do it.

I think it's weird that you can put whatever seed time you want, since I'm pretty sure for USA Swimming meets (at least the nationals), your time has to be one you made in a meet that is under the time standards and be able to prove that time.

osterber
September 30th, 2008, 02:43 PM
Masters swimming _does_ have a large standard deviation on seed times. There are plenty of people who _are_ trying to put good seed times, but are then off. Often, people tend to underestimate themselves. Other times, you get people who were training really well when the entry was due, and then work exploded, or they were sent away on business, or any of the other things happened that we call "life", and they couldn't get in the pool as much.

For me, all I ask is that people make an honest effort. When you watch the heats going off, you can quickly tell which people are "in the mix", and which people were waaaay off, in one way or another.

I have an online entries system that we use for some NE championship meets. I've been dabbling with tying it into some swimming databases that we have historical times in. So you'd sign up for the meet, and perhaps we could suggest seed times for you, or if your seed times are waaay off from previous performances, give you a warning and encouragement to fix.

Yes, I know that there are all of the cases of "but I'm 6 months pregnant this year", or "I'm rehabbing from shoulder surgery", etc. All I ask is an honest effort on good seed times. If you need to adjust for these "real life" reasons, you're an adult now... you can do it. :-)

-Rick

geochuck
September 30th, 2008, 02:55 PM
Put in the time that you think you will swim. If you sandbag and put in too slow a time you will swim with the slower swimmers therefore your time may not be as fast as you can swim. It is surprising how fast you can swim against the faster swimmers. It is called competitive swimming and you will not be competitive if you can win your heat easily.

If you put in a faster time then you can swim you may swim faster but is that what you should do, I dopn't think you should.

The Fortress
September 30th, 2008, 03:35 PM
It's masters--it shouldn't matter and people that make a big deal about it suck.

I, like others, usually sandbag a little (like a 1-2 seconds on a 100-200 and 3-4 seconds on a 500) in case I have a stroke or don't train as much as I thought I was going to.


I agree with Kurt (and Chowmi). Most people seem to put times in that are slightly slower to compensate for RL or because they're unrested or cranky and sore or whatever. Not a big deal. Probably not more than Rick's 10% permissible deviation standard. And, aside from meet directors like Rick who have a vested interest in running an efficient meet, many people who complain about sandbagging or NTs (like the 5 pack freestylers) have the luxury of not struggling with the order of events every meet or worrying about adequate rest. By contrast, I recall that, after correctly seeding myself first in the 50 back at our last zones meet, I was beaten by someone who swam almost 3 seconds faster than her seed time. Who cares? She's an awesome swimmer.

I also think it is somewhat inaccurate to say people are at meets to "race." True, but many people are just swimming against themselves and trying to improve on their own times. Often, they don't care what other swimmers are doing, particularly if they're not in their age group. And, George, it is perfectly possible to swim fast with an NT. At my meet last weekend, the meet director lost my 50 fly entry (I was seeded at the exact time I did at the beginning of the season last year), and I had to swim in an NT heat. Not my choice, but it's not the end of the world.

SwimStud
September 30th, 2008, 03:46 PM
I never sandbag...

With all due respect to the meet directors, I don't think making the most of a meet you may pay well over $500 to attend by adding a second to a time is really that heinous. At least definitely not at my level. :2cents:

Admittedly the mega meets which are usually over subscribed (like NE SCY) may have the luxury of being able to demand/enforce "accurate seeding" but I'd think that many others are not in such a position.

osterber
September 30th, 2008, 04:06 PM
With all due respect to the meet directors, I don't think making the most of a meet you may pay well over $500 to attend by adding a second to a time is really that heinous. At least definitely not at my level. :2cents:

I don't care about 1 second. If everyone were within 1 second, we'd be great!

I care about 10 seconds in a 100. If you're that far off in a 100 free, then you need to work on your seed times.

I happen to run a meet that lots of people seem to want to come to. If I can get better seed times, I can squeeze more people into the meet. More people for you to socialize with on deck. More people for you to drink with after the meet. I don't like telling people that my meet is full.

-Rick

SwimStud
September 30th, 2008, 04:13 PM
I don't care about 1 second. If everyone were within 1 second, we'd be great!

I care about 10 seconds in a 100. If you're that far off in a 100 free, then you need to work on your seed times.

I happen to run a meet that lots of people seem to want to come to. If I can get better seed times, I can squeeze more people into the meet. More people for you to socialize with on deck. More people for you to drink with after the meet. I don't like telling people that my meet is full.

-Rick

Yea 10 secs would be bad but I honestly blew off some large chunks of time this summer. There was no way I could have known. I am sure a few folks were giving me the hairy eyeball...

Was no way criticising your meet Rick. That's a lot of people...even with 3 full days. I can understand your frustration there. Plus at NEM there are typically enough heats that you'll get your rest...

geochuck
September 30th, 2008, 04:41 PM
That is because you are a great swimmer, don't you always swim faster every time you swim.


I agree with Kurt (and Chowmi).
I also think it is somewhat inaccurate to say people are at meets to "race." True, but many people are just swimming against themselves and trying to improve on their own times. Often, they don't care what other swimmers are doing, particularly if they're not in their age group. And, George, it is perfectly possible to swim fast with an NT. At my meet last weekend, the meet director lost my 50 fly entry (I was seeded at the exact time I did at the beginning of the season last year), and I had to swim in an NT heat. Not my choice, but it's not the end of the world.

The Fortress
September 30th, 2008, 04:44 PM
Was no way criticising your meet Rick. That's a lot of people...even with 3 full days. I can understand your frustration there. Plus at NEM there are typically enough heats that you'll get your rest...

I went in December last year to the NEM meet. Had a great time. However, the 50/100 back and 50/100 fly were all the same day, which sucked for me. I had 10 minutes rest before my 100 back. Not enough time for me. However, I did not sandbag.

Rich, you're still a fairly new competitor and you're going to improve at your taper meets. You can't always guess by how much.

I don't really see many instances of people adding 10 seconds to a 100 time in PV meets.

No, I don't always, George! I wish!

SwimStud
September 30th, 2008, 05:14 PM
Rich, you're still a fairly new competitor and you're going to improve at your taper meets. You can't always guess by how much.


I though it was b/c of my sheer brilliance and hard work...jeez rain on my parade why doncha? :badday:

:lmao:

Midas
September 30th, 2008, 05:19 PM
I agree with Kurt (and Chowmi). Most people seem to put times in that are slightly slower to compensate for RL or because they're unrested or cranky and sore or whatever. Not a big deal. Probably not more than Rick's 10% permissible deviation standard. And, aside from meet directors like Rick who have a vested interest in running an efficient meet, many people who complain about sandbagging or NTs (like the 5 pack freestylers) have the luxury of not struggling with the order of events every meet or worrying about adequate rest. By contrast, I recall that, after correctly seeding myself first in the 50 back at our last zones meet, I was beaten by someone who swam almost 3 seconds faster than her seed time. Who cares? She's an awesome swimmer.

I also think it is somewhat inaccurate to say people are at meets to "race." True, but many people are just swimming against themselves and trying to improve on their own times. Often, they don't care what other swimmers are doing, particularly if they're not in their age group. And, George, it is perfectly possible to swim fast with an NT. At my meet last weekend, the meet director lost my 50 fly entry (I was seeded at the exact time I did at the beginning of the season last year), and I had to swim in an NT heat. Not my choice, but it's not the end of the world.

I agree with everything Fort is saying. I've only been back in swimming for a year, so I'm still learning how to seed myself appropriately. But I know that a large percentage of those who know what they're doing seed themselves about a second or so per 100 slower than they expect to swim. If I want a competitive heat, I do the same. But I care more about my time than how I place in my heat (which I care very little about, unless there is someone else in my age group in my heat).

pwolf66
September 30th, 2008, 05:43 PM
XX

The Fortress
September 30th, 2008, 05:58 PM
I seed my best time in the last year. Period.

But I have taken many a look at meet results from Nationals (both SCY and LCM) for various folks and looked at thier seed times, then looked in the data base for previous times and see that thier seed times for NATIONALS, is 10% slower than a time they swam over TWO months earlier. And then they proceed to swim 20% under that seed time. It's THAT kind of behavoir that drives me nuts. If someone swims an event once a year and beats thier time by 10% (or more) fine, that happens. But for those folks who swim quite a few meets and have a good history of times, to not seed a reasonable time is just sad. And I am referring to swimmers who are in the top 10-15% of thier age groups. A less accomplished swimmer can EASILY have a dramatic breakthru. But if a swimmer puts up several sub 23 50 frees and then seeds a 24.50 and swims low 22, that's someone who needs to be called out and ridiculed.

Well, gold star for you! :thhbbb: I wouldn't seed at my best time if I was unrested. Doesn't make sense to me.

Why does it bother you so much? Do you think they have an advantage? Ridicule?!?! Uh, it's masters and we're all adults, no need.

pwolf66
September 30th, 2008, 06:02 PM
Well, gold star for you! :thhbbb: I wouldn't seed at my best time if I was unrested. Doesn't make sense to me.

Why does it bother you so much? Do you think they have an advantage? Ridicule?!?! Uh, it's masters and we're all adults, no need.

Hmm, is this a Pot-Kettle situation because I seem to recall quite a few deck side conversations where you have expressed annoyance over folks who do this.

knelson
September 30th, 2008, 06:05 PM
But I know that a large percentage of those who know what they're doing seed themselves about a second or so per 100 slower than they expect to swim.

And I think that practice is a little silly. What's the purpose? Just to be sure you always beat your seed time? Who cares if you swim a little slower?

The Fortress
September 30th, 2008, 06:16 PM
Hmm, is this a Pot-Kettle situation because I seem to recall quite a few deck side conversations where you have expressed annoyance over folks who do this.

Nope, we haven't had a lot of those deck side convos. I think I may have commented on a certain swimmer in your age group who routinely seeds well off his times, not 10%. Or possibly joked about sandbaggers. But I am generally not annoyed or angered by this practice. Ultimately, you're competing against the times on the usms database.

And what about the swimmers who do a portion of a race for time and loaf the rest? Are they to be condemned too?

pwolf66
September 30th, 2008, 06:20 PM
Nope, we haven't had a lot of those deck side convos. I think I may have commented on a certain swimmer in your age group who routinely seeds well off his times, not 10%. I am generally not annoyed by this practice. Ultimately, you're competing against the times on the usms database.

Guess it's just me.

The Fortress
September 30th, 2008, 06:46 PM
Guess it's just me.

No, it obviously bothers many others too. That's why we have all these threads on sandbagging and all its insidious evils.

Look, sometimes you just don't know how fast you'll go. Or you don't know how much to allocate to the tech suit factor. Or whatever. As long as it's reasonably in the ball park, I don't see the big deal. And, according to George, it's a huge disadvantage to seed yourself slower.

stillwater
September 30th, 2008, 07:12 PM
Honest mistakes are okey dokey. Also, if you haven't competed "in who knows how many years", your cool.

It is the deliberate fabrication of a seed time for an advantage that gets my goat.

Be that advantage still water for a good swim, or resting up because you're tired from your last event and you still blow away the heat, or it is the last event of a meet and you wanna go home. Swim close to your seed time.

I don't have as big of a problem with the speedy chap who did a mid 40 for the first 100 of a 1650. I gather that he also hit his seed time. Part of me would have liked to have seen it from the water, but if I was going for a PR I would have been irked for about 18 minutes.

Midas
September 30th, 2008, 08:26 PM
And I think that practice is a little silly. What's the purpose? Just to be sure you always beat your seed time? Who cares if you swim a little slower?

I don't really know. I think it comes down to people not giving themselves enough credit perhaps. "I'm not in as good shape as I was when I swam my best time, so I'll need to enter a slower time," "I swam that time a year ago and now I'm a year older and slower", "I swam that time when I was shaved and tapered and I'm not for this meet," "I don't perform well in this pool," etc. Masters swimmers are good with the excuses!

geochuck
September 30th, 2008, 08:41 PM
When people put down obvious wrong times I consider it cheating. Why lie about your times?

Joe Swimmer
September 30th, 2008, 09:02 PM
Why let them know your real times at all? I always seed with times that are new event records! Or with times that are 200% slower than normal, to ensure swimming in the first heat.:thhbbb:

Kurt Dickson
September 30th, 2008, 09:49 PM
I'm not sure how sandbagging is cheating unless you are using epo and pulling on the lane line at the same time.

Masters is different than age-group swimming. You cannot expect to improve every time you drop in the water (in fact my improvement stopped 20 years ago). I put 1-2 seconds slower on a 200 because I feel I'm going to be a little slower every year. I guess I should just put my college times down each time and when I add 12-15 secs, I can make myself feel like a crappy, old swimmer --but at least I won't be accused of...oh the horror...sandbagger:drown:.

SwimStud
September 30th, 2008, 11:16 PM
I think there are 2 negative views on sandbagging. 1 is the "innefficiency" aspect that was noted, and the other is the judgemental "tsk-tsk" kind of view.

pwolf66
October 1st, 2008, 06:37 AM
I'm not sure how sandbagging is cheating unless you are using epo and pulling on the lane line at the same time.

Masters is different than age-group swimming. You cannot expect to improve every time you drop in the water (in fact my improvement stopped 20 years ago). I put 1-2 seconds slower on a 200 because I feel I'm going to be a little slower every year. I guess I should just put my college times down each time and when I add 12-15 secs, I can make myself feel like a crappy, old swimmer --but at least I won't be accused of...oh the horror...sandbagger:drown:.

Kurt,

Putting a 200 time 1-2 sec slower than a PB is fine. What I'm talking about is a consistent behavoir of signifcantly slower seed times. Swimming better than expected or worse than expected happens. But there are folks out there that will deliberately seed a 100 time at least 5 seconds slower than thier PB (said PB swam very recently) just to get clear water. Well, what about the person who was honest with thier seed but gets to eat that person's wake?

Rykno
October 1st, 2008, 09:09 AM
Over here our sign-ups are done via a time database system, so they take the fastest times you have registered. But coaches can go in and "fake" times if you don't have one.

Like for example I am going to swim the 1500m in 6 weeks, I have no time, but qualified in the 400m, so I can swim the 1500 too. BUT NT are not allowed. so he will fake a time that I am guessing. I hope that I can swim it under 19:00, but at practice I have yet to swim one under 19:45 so that will be my seed time.

Chris Stevenson
October 1st, 2008, 12:48 PM
At my meet last weekend, the meet director lost my 50 fly entry (I was seeded at the exact time I did at the beginning of the season last year), and I had to swim in an NT heat. Not my choice, but it's not the end of the world.

Great, NOW I have to watch out that Fort doesn't bribe the meet director to "lose" her entry at the Sprint Classic in the 50 fly, giving her clear water and a better chance at winning a beer or three.

The Fortress
October 1st, 2008, 02:24 PM
Great, NOW I have to watch out that Fort doesn't bribe the meet director to "lose" her entry at the Sprint Classic in the 50 fly, giving her clear water and a better chance at winning a beer or three.

Who has to resort to bribes? The meet director is my relay mate! Muhahaha!

pwolf66
October 1st, 2008, 02:41 PM
Great, NOW I have to watch out that Fort doesn't bribe the meet director to "lose" her entry at the Sprint Classic in the 50 fly, giving her clear water and a better chance at winning a beer or three.


She does that and I may just acidentally slip and fall in her lane at the turn.