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jjpj
October 1st, 2008, 01:58 AM
I swim about 2 hours per day 5 days a week.
evenings 6-8pm. I considering do morings swim(at my local health club) but no longer than an hour.

I am on masters team - evenings 6-8pm.5 days /week

i swim 4 weeks now and completes 4500yds daily workout (evenings) no problems.

thanks for suggestions.

jjpj

Rykno
October 1st, 2008, 03:32 AM
If your daily schedule allows for morning swims I say try it for a week.

maybe tuesday and thursdays. see how well you can swim tuesday morning after a monday night swim and how well you swim thursday night after the two extra practices.

I would love to add a few morning swims but on the days that I could swim in the morning, the pool doesn't open until 10am.

elise526
October 1st, 2008, 03:35 AM
I think this depends on a number of factors. What are your swimming goals? Are you competing in any meets? What events are you competing in? What is your age (this is a factor in recovery)? How well do you recover from workouts?

jjpj
October 1st, 2008, 03:41 AM
i'm 33 y.old male great shape, recover from workouts easliy.


jjpj

elise526
October 1st, 2008, 04:23 AM
Sounds like you should go for it. The only reason I would tell you not to is if you are a sprinter and are training primarily for 50s or 100s. As you are probably aware, less is more with sprinters. Remember, even when Dara Torres was 33 and training for the 2000 Olympics, she was just swimming once a day.

Otherwise, I say go for it.

tjrpatt
October 1st, 2008, 08:50 AM
If you have the time, go for it.

Chris Stevenson
October 1st, 2008, 09:02 AM
On the one hand, I'm an advocate for training how you like, rather than what you feel you "must" do. We're not USS swimmers. Monitor the health of your shoulders if you decide to do doubles.

But you already do 2250 a week and that should be plenty for many (most) purposes in USMS if you train with good intensity. If are not already doing some cross-training like weights or Pilates or running (or whatever), you might want to give that a try for your second daily workout

Or not. Your call. There is no right answer. And hopefully you're in this for the long haul, you can always do something different later.

FlyQueen
October 1st, 2008, 09:13 AM
I've done doubles a few times while swimming masters. Almost every time I've ended up having bad workouts, getting a bit burned out, and hurting myself. Shortly before we began our taper last year I did doubles and hard training for a week. (I teach and we were on spring break) I think this helped me swim well tapered.

If you add a morning session I would focus on tecnique and recovery swims. I would also think about focusing on things like SDKs and kicking.

CreamPuff
October 1st, 2008, 09:57 AM
Sounds like you should go for it. The only reason I would tell you not to is if you are a sprinter and are training primarily for 50s or 100s. As you are probably aware, less is more with sprinters. Remember, even when Dara Torres was 33 and training for the 2000 Olympics, she was just swimming once a day.

Otherwise, I say go for it.

What happens if you do doubles and try and swim sprints?

pwolf66
October 1st, 2008, 10:22 AM
What happens if you do doubles and try and swim sprints?

You explode? :dunno:

You rip the space-time continum?

poolraat
October 1st, 2008, 11:28 AM
I have a limited amount of time in my morning workout, about 70 minutes, so I will occasionally do doubles when I want to focus on one particular aspect of my swimming, and can't fit it in in the morning. I rarely double more than twice weekly, and the second session is usually in the evening and only 1200-1500 yards/meters. Also in the final 2-3 weeks before a taper I will start doing doubles 2-3 days a week just to get my daily yards up an additional 1500-2000 yards, and again to focus on what I consider my weaknesses. If you consider the spin sessions and yoga practice that I do you could say that I do doubles almost daily.

peeterdeeter
October 1st, 2008, 12:17 PM
I would suggest just trying one morning a week at first. Some get addicted to the morning workout, even to the point where they don't do afternoons. Some don't function correctly after a morning workout. It isn't like you are honoring a scholarship and have to show up to mornings no matter what. If you like one double per week, try two. I wouldn't do more than three though.

I, personally, workout about 7k 6 days per week, lift Tues and Thurs from 6AM-8AM, with both gym workouts followed by an hour of easy technique swimming so as not to bulk up and lose flexibility. Also, before M/W/F afternoon workouts each week, I run 3 miles and do plyos for an hour. I then play tennis for two hours on Sunday and swim about 1000 to hang on to feel for Monday workout.

My yardage declines throughout the season(down to 4-5K), and I am actually a 100 swimmer. 43 free, 47 fly/back!?, and I've only been swimming for 10 months. Don't believe too much hype about the sprinters doing almost nothing in the pool, you need your aerobic base before you can train power/sprints. A lot of these online posters don't seem to understand that. For example, Dara did her aerobic work out of the water. I've swum in workouts next to her/watched her workout many times and know her coach a little bit. She spent two hours per day in the pool, and an average of 1-1.5 hours in the gym per day.(Usually M/W/F doing cardio/spin etc., and T/Th lifting) This does not include her hours and hours spent each week stretching/yoga/getting massages. On top of that she has a lifetime of aerobic base and is a uniquely gifted athlete.

So if I were you(recover quickly/medium yardage trainer) I'd probably swim M-F afternoon, swim Wed morning, and lift T/Th/Sat. On Saturday I would swim easy recovery after lifting to loosen up and mentally relax. Then on Sunday I'd get really drunk watching the Raiders and Niners lose. Rinse and Repeat.

CreamPuff
October 1st, 2008, 12:24 PM
Thanks for the great post and additional insight.


I would suggest just trying one morning a week at first. Some get addicted to the morning workout, even to the point where they don't do afternoons. Some don't function correctly after a morning workout. It isn't like you are honoring a scholarship and have to show up to mornings no matter what. If you like one double per week, try two. I wouldn't do more than three though.

I, personally, workout about 7k 6 days per week, lift Tues and Thurs from 6AM-8AM, with both gym workouts followed by an hour of easy technique swimming so as not to bulk up and lose flexibility. Also, before M/W/F afternoon workouts each week, I run 3 miles and do plyos for an hour. I then play tennis for two hours on Sunday and swim about 1000 to hang on to feel for Monday workout.

My yardage declines throughout the season(down to 4-5K), and I am actually a 100 swimmer. 43 free, 47 fly/back!?, and I've only been swimming for 10 months. Don't believe too much hype about the sprinters doing almost nothing in the pool, you need your aerobic base before you can train power/sprints. A lot of these online posters don't seem to understand that. For example, Dara did her aerobic work out of the water. I've swum in workouts next to her/watched her workout many times and know her coach a little bit. She spent two hours per day in the pool, and an average of 1-1.5 hours in the gym per day.(Usually M/W/F doing cardio/spin etc., and T/Th lifting) This does not include her hours and hours spent each week stretching/yoga/getting massages. On top of that she has a lifetime of aerobic base and is a uniquely gifted athlete.

So if I were you(recover quickly/medium yardage trainer) I'd probably swim M-F afternoon, swim Wed morning, and lift T/Th/Sat. On Saturday I would swim easy recovery after lifting to loosen up and mentally relax. Then on Sunday I'd get really drunk watching the Raiders and Niners lose. Rinse and Repeat.

peeterdeeter
October 1st, 2008, 12:25 PM
Oh, and I see you are from Bakersfield. My grandmother lives there and I like to check in on her every few weeks, on the weekend. I haven't looked for somewhere to swim. I am usually there from Friday night to Sunday at noon, is there any pool/lap swim that you could suggest that is open from anytime between Sat morning and Sunday morning.(I don't like to go to church with her, so it would be a good excuse to miss! haha)

Chris Stevenson
October 1st, 2008, 12:39 PM
What happens if you do doubles and try and swim sprints?

I think this focus on yardage and "singles vs doubles" is a little misleading, whether you are a sprinter or not.

It doesn't matter how many yards I'm doing, if I don't do speed work or lactate sets with some frequency and intensity, I'll be slower in 100s and 200s and even the 400/500.

Conversely, doing doubles won't kill your speed at all as long as you continue to work on it. Don't do everything at moderate speed...which may happen if you don't allow yourself adequate recovery time.

So just be sure to build adequate recovery time into your training cycle because that's when you actually get faster. As you get older you tend to need more recovery time.

aztimm
October 1st, 2008, 02:20 PM
I try to do double swim sets on Fridays. That is when we usually do our fast swims...say 50s on 2 min, or something similar (maybe 100s on 5 min). In the morning I'll focus on free, then come back in the evening and do the same set breast. I typically don't swim over the weekend (that is saved for weights and runs), so it also cuts down my out of pool time a little.

I do combine swimming with running and weights, Mon-Thurs doing a swim set and one of those also. I like the variety, and feel that balancing them all together works well.

ImFree
October 1st, 2008, 02:44 PM
I did some doubles last SCY season, about 5 or 6 weeks worth twice a week in Feb - Mar timeframe. Our main team workout is/was in the evening around 4500 yards, and I'd get a couple of more days in, ramping the weekly yardage up to 35K, from the normal 20 - 25K. Knowing I'm not the kid I once was, I did tend to ease up on one of the workouts, focus on technique, turns etc, or get out a little early... just listen to your body. While it did wear me out for a bit, I think it helped in the long run come taper time. I swam USMS Champs and Y-Nats, and despite being pretty slack between the two, I swam faster in all events 2 weeks later at Y-Nats, from the 50 free to the 1000 free. So, the extra training gave some extra speed and endurance. Or maybe I need a 5 week taper. Or maybe margaritas on the beach... I'll probably do something similar this season, but may start in Jan. I might also try some periodization training -- swim a month with some doubles, then a month more normal, another month with some doubles... or maybe two week cycles...

The Fortress
October 1st, 2008, 03:28 PM
Don't believe too much hype about the sprinters doing almost nothing in the pool, you need your aerobic base before you can train power/sprints. A lot of these online posters don't seem to understand that.

We're not all bumbling dunderheads.

I pretty routinely do "doubles," just not swimming doubles. I run, cycle, lift, etc. After my 8 mile run yesterday, I was in the gym for about an hour today and just swam 4000. Tomorrow, I'm going to spin and do a lactate set. Paul Smith undertakes his "less is more" approach with a big dose of spinning. There are plenty of sprinters having success with lower yardage and cross training.

scyfreestyler
October 1st, 2008, 03:38 PM
and I am actually a 100 swimmer. 43 free, 47 fly/back!?, and I've only been swimming for 10 months. .


Only 10 months in the water and you are swimming a 43 second 100 Free?

aquageek
October 1st, 2008, 03:49 PM
A 43 100 free makes you the fastest USMS swimmer at that distance, any age.

mctrusty
October 1st, 2008, 04:35 PM
A 43 100 free makes you the fastest USMS swimmer at that distance, any age.

There are no 47s in 100 Fly or 100 Back according to USMS records.

matysekj
October 1st, 2008, 04:43 PM
There are no 47s in 100 Fly or 100 Back according to USMS records.

That's just because I've chosen not to swim those events. :joker::joker::rofl::rofl:

Yeah, right. In my dreams. :bed:

knelson
October 1st, 2008, 05:21 PM
lift Tues and Thurs from 6AM-8AM, with both gym workouts followed by an hour of easy technique swimming so as not to bulk up and lose flexibility.

How is swimming afterward going to cause you not to bulk up?

rtodd
October 1st, 2008, 05:29 PM
Only 10 months in the water and you are swimming a 43 second 100 Free?

Crazy right? I'm trying to figure out if he swam for years .....took ten months off, then back to the pool.

pwolf66
October 1st, 2008, 05:39 PM
Wow, he would have swam in the B heat at the NCAA championships.

elise526
October 1st, 2008, 05:45 PM
What happens if you do doubles and try and swim sprints?

We should probably ask Dara that question. There's a reason she swam only once a day in training for 2000 and 2008 Olympics. Particularly in athletes over 30, recovery becomes an issue.

If you are asking me, it has been a disaster for me to do double swim workouts since I was 16. Broke me down to a point that I was beyond the help of a taper. I'd get sick, injured, etc. and be out for a week, so a taper would become meaningless.

Of course, I believe each person is different and on the masters level, folks should do what they want. I do think, however, masters swimmers that want to do well in JUST the 50s and 100s should be mindful of the lesson we have learned from Torres - less is more.

I will add that I have found swimming twice a day to be more taxing than doing a run workout and a swim workout in one day. Why this is, I don't know. Again, I go back to Dara - there must be a reason her coach had her doing just one swim workout and one dryland workout a day versus two swim workouts a day.

Some folks aren't as talented as the (S)he-man. I do think though that if you [(S)he_man] just wanted to focus on the 50 free, and decided to go the low yardage route, you'd swim a low 23. On the other hand, with a multi-talented athlete like yourself, focusing on just a few short events could be boring.

elise526
October 1st, 2008, 06:32 PM
A 43 100 free makes you the fastest USMS swimmer at that distance, any age.

He may not be a masters swimmer. In a post on September 29, he mentioned that he is 23, had a 10 year layoff, and then after only 7 months of training, he made Olympic Trials cuts in two events (See true beginner thread).

Peter - I figured out who you are and your feats are impressive. Hope you will keep up your hard work. Keep in mind that many of the folks on here are a good bit older than you. Many of us 40+ swimmers can't put in the yardage that you swim or swim at the intensity that you do without paying a price. Also, remember that the original question was about two swim workouts a day. No coach would suggest that a world class sprinter just swim without doing dryland work. This requires doubling up.

Frank Thompson
October 1st, 2008, 06:53 PM
There are no 47s in 100 Fly or 100 Back according to USMS records.

That is true, however I believe Sabir Muhammad would have easily crushed the :48.00 standard for the 100 Fly at the 2004 USMS Short Course Nationals in Indy. He went a :21.15 for the 50 Fly in that meet. He elected not to swim the 100 Fly. His other times were :19.44 in the 50 Free and :42.91 in the 100 Free. Those two free times were better than his college times and were lifetime bests. He went :46.18 in the 100 Fly at the 1998 NCAA Championship meet in setting an American Record. So the way he was swimming I believe he would have been close to that time.

http://www.usms.org/comp/poolrecords.php

jjpj
October 3rd, 2008, 01:00 AM
Oh, and I see you are from Bakersfield. My grandmother lives there and I like to check in on her every few weeks, on the weekend. I haven't looked for somewhere to swim. I am usually there from Friday night to Sunday at noon, is there any pool/lap swim that you could suggest that is open from anytime between Sat morning and Sunday morning.(I don't like to go to church with her, so it would be a good excuse to miss! haha)


Check parks an recreation 661) 326-3866 they have many pools.

CreamPuff
October 3rd, 2008, 06:37 PM
Just felt I had to ask the question.
My coach as of now does not allow me to do doubles as he thinks I'll get too worn down. Who wants to argue with that!? Even when I was training for the 25K OW I did not do doubles. Nor did I do any weights or dryland or other activity during the last LCM season.

HOWEVER, that being said, when I did do doubles for a short time last SCY season, I later on during that season did drop significant time across the board in all distances and events. It was for a "short time" b/c frankly it just got ugly.

I don't recommend them for most if any masters, but in moderation and on occasion, they can be good for a jump start. Everything seems pretty easy when you cut them out!

lol. Well, I don't have the focus and dedication to hone in on a couple of events. And I refuse to lift heavy, so I'm afraid that 50 time will never reach low 23. But thanks! :)



We should probably ask Dara that question. There's a reason she swam only once a day in training for 2000 and 2008 Olympics. Particularly in athletes over 30, recovery becomes an issue.

If you are asking me, it has been a disaster for me to do double swim workouts since I was 16. Broke me down to a point that I was beyond the help of a taper. I'd get sick, injured, etc. and be out for a week, so a taper would become meaningless.

Of course, I believe each person is different and on the masters level, folks should do what they want. I do think, however, masters swimmers that want to do well in JUST the 50s and 100s should be mindful of the lesson we have learned from Torres - less is more.

I will add that I have found swimming twice a day to be more taxing than doing a run workout and a swim workout in one day. Why this is, I don't know. Again, I go back to Dara - there must be a reason her coach had her doing just one swim workout and one dryland workout a day versus two swim workouts a day.

Some folks aren't as talented as the (S)he-man. I do think though that if you [(S)he_man] just wanted to focus on the 50 free, and decided to go the low yardage route, you'd swim a low 23. On the other hand, with a multi-talented athlete like yourself, focusing on just a few short events could be boring.