PDA

View Full Version : How far do you swim every week - AT RACE PACE !



ehoch
October 28th, 2008, 05:37 PM
My hardest workout last week was 1900 yards - but 800 was at race pace:

800 warm-up
4 build 25s sprint
4 fast 25s
100 easy
12x50 every 90s sec at 100 race pace
200 warm down

I had time for another 2500 of kicking / swimming / pulling, but I was so tired, there is no point, except "counting yards"...

pwolf66
October 28th, 2008, 05:41 PM
What do you consider 100 race pace for your 50s? Half your 100 time? Your target front half split? I would think the 2nd if you are going off a push but interested in seeing how you do it.

Aqua Jock
October 28th, 2008, 05:57 PM
hoch

that doesn't read like much but it is fierce and seriously hurts if you work it

AJ

Steve Ruiter
October 28th, 2008, 06:02 PM
The question seems to assume you are racing something short and fast and training something longer and slower. What if its the other way around?

My last race was 3 miles. I'd say most everything I do in sets is faster than that pace, but still not "fast".

Its important to understand the bigger context of a training program.

Chris Stevenson
October 28th, 2008, 07:22 PM
What do you consider 100 race pace for your 50s? Half your 100 time? Your target front half split? I would think the 2nd if you are going off a push but interested in seeing how you do it.

Hi Paul,

I can't speak for Erik but I can tell you that our coach always talks about "second half" splits of goal (rested) times as race pace: 2nd 50 of the goal-time 100, or last 100 of the goal-time 200, or the last 3 50s of the goal-time 200 (if, ideally, all at the same pace).

SaltySwimmer
October 28th, 2008, 08:45 PM
We did this workout last week on our "fast" day. It was pretty gut-wrenching (if you did it the way it was supposed to be done).

Warm Up:
500 choice

Main Set:
(4 times through)
200 free on 4:00-- hard effort
100 free on 2:00 (try to go half of what you did the 200 in, minus 3-5 seconds)
50 free on 1:00 (try to go half of what you did the 100 in, minus 3-5 seconds)

250 easy after each set of 200-100-50.

Total yards: 2,900

SwimStud
October 28th, 2008, 08:58 PM
I cannot attain race-pace during training.
:badday:

The Fortress
October 28th, 2008, 09:20 PM
I do quite a lot of race pace/AFAP work, both kicking and swimming. I also don't swim as much yardage as many masters. I can't do 800 race pace every day or all week long though -- too old. I need some recovery time or cross training.

The hardest set I've done recently was 8 x 100 on 2:00 dolphin kicking with an MF and holding :58-1:00. Did hypoxic work the rest of the workout because I was dead.

Typhoons Coach
October 28th, 2008, 10:23 PM
Hi Paul,

I can't speak for Erik but I can tell you that our coach always talks about "second half" splits of goal (rested) times as race pace: 2nd 50 of the goal-time 100, or last 100 of the goal-time 200, or the last 3 50s of the goal-time 200 (if, ideally, all at the same pace).

I have to agree with this!

pwolf66
October 28th, 2008, 10:37 PM
Thanks Chris. That puts it into perspective. So for me that set would have a target time in the low 27 range for SCY from a push. Will give Ehoch's set a spin this weekend. Looks like fun...kinda....well......:eeew:

pwolf66
October 28th, 2008, 10:38 PM
I cannot attain race-pace during training.
:badday:


As opposed to when???? :bolt:

SwimStud
October 28th, 2008, 10:42 PM
As opposed to when???? :bolt:

As opposed to at meets 12 months apart where one sheds 5 seconds...
:banana:

The Fortress
October 28th, 2008, 10:42 PM
Nice, Wolf-Girl. Suck up to Chris and mock Rich.

pwolf66
October 28th, 2008, 10:48 PM
As opposed to at meets 12 months apart where one sheds 5 seconds...
:banana:


Ah, my mistake. Very nicely done then.

The Fortress
October 28th, 2008, 10:51 PM
Heck the 25 Back time from last year was a dunk and push start.

And yours was something better? :thhbbb:

pwolf66
October 28th, 2008, 10:52 PM
And yours was something better? :thhbbb:


Um, it was 13.45. True I lost to Yana.........

SwimStud
October 28th, 2008, 10:54 PM
5 seconds? In what? Not a single 25 was 5 seconds faster than last years. Heck the 25 Back time from last year was a dunk and push start.

Fort, I can still learn from Chris if of course I want to destroy my shoulders. Rich on the other hand? Who needs to learn Evilstroke?

You're mixing your threads Hulk.

This one is the one about my "race pace" or lack thereof. 5 secs is my improvement from Sprint 07 in the 100FR.

The other thread is my heroic 25 Back.

The Fortress
October 28th, 2008, 10:55 PM
Um, it was 13.45. True I lost to Yana.........

I was speaking of your slip and fall last year in the 25 back last year, oh great one.

Leave Yana out of it. She is a goddess.

pwolf66
October 28th, 2008, 10:58 PM
I was speaking of your slip and fall last year in the 25 back last year, oh great one.

Leave Yana out of it. She is a goddess.


And I was referring to my perfect example of the banana peel start from last year. I think we're all getting confused. :bliss:

ScarletSwimmer
October 28th, 2008, 11:02 PM
I cannot attain race-pace during training.
:badday:


I can't attain race-pace during a race.

(ba-dum-bump - I'm here all week. Try the cheesecurds.)

coffeegirl
October 29th, 2008, 12:09 PM
From my meet last Saturday I can tell it is not enough. My body had a difficult time going into "race speed," especially on the short sprints where I really needed it. I am swimming hard during practice but I've noticed that I do tend to hold back just a bit to make it through the set/through the practice. I'm not really into the pain thing, a bit of problem if I want to go fast!

lefty
October 29th, 2008, 12:27 PM
I cannot attain race-pace during training.
:badday:

I thought that was true about myself too but sometimes I wonder if I am just not willing to work hard enough. I do a set of 6 50's at 98% and I literally* want to puke. Who wants to put themselves through that?

*one of my pet peeves is when someone says "literally" and they mean "figuratively.

Thrashing Slug
October 29th, 2008, 12:38 PM
Since most of my races are triathlons, I would say 75-80% of my pool training is above race pace. I also do meets occasionally, and about 25-50% of my pool training is above swim meet race pace (meets have been limited to 50s and 100s thus far). This is mainly due to my use of fins. I like to swim hard with fins and then take them off at the end of a workout to enjoy the resultant foot flexibility for the last set or two.

The exception to this rule is breaststroke. I've never hit race pace BR in training, although I have done race intensity. It's a pretty low percentage though, currently none at all. As I get closer to the spring it will probably ramp up to 10-25% race intensity BR, but I need to be careful with that. Too easy to injure the legs with all that kicking. Maybe If I get some of those weird breaststroke fins I can exceed race pace in training.

For finless free, my closest 50 to race pace has been around 1.5 seconds off. For a 100 it's way worse, something like 5 seconds. With fins I can go almost 7 seconds faster than race pace on a 50, and 16 seconds faster on a 100. Pretty crazy, I know.

BR is another story. My fastest practice 50 was around 4 seconds off race pace, and my fastest 100 was about the same - 3 or 4 seconds. What's up with that? Probably because I rarely kick all out during practice.

ehoch
October 29th, 2008, 02:59 PM
There is many different variation for race pace - but for me, it's closer related to your turnover than the actual time. I do think of it as the second 50 split in a 100 race, but I also want to take into account taper and those suits. I have seen some research done on this - that the turnover for swimmers changes very little between in-season and the taper, but people are just able to put more force into the same number of strokes (when rested). I am trying to get my muscles / nervous system and technique used to swimming at a certain speed. So my race pace targets (for a 100) are based on a good 100 race in season - out in 25 mid - back in 27 low.
So in my 12x50, I was looking for 27 lows - but I am hoping to be about 1 sec faster than that when rested.

I think it is almost impossible to do more than 4-6 times your race distance at race pace in a workout. Thinking of it in those terms will put the "tough distance swimmer vs. lazy sprinters" claim into perspective. If I do my 10-12x50 and need to see 5x500 broken before we can talk. :duel:

Syd
October 29th, 2008, 08:23 PM
*one of my pet peeves is when someone says "literally" and they mean "figuratively.

Me, too. I literally explode when I come across that kind of mistake.;)

letsrace
October 31st, 2008, 08:57 AM
12x50 every 90s sec at 100 race pace
200 warm down

I had time for another 2500 of kicking / swimming / pulling, but I was so tired, there is no point, except "counting yards"...

I am curious about this statement. I am no fan of "counting yards" for yards sake, but I have converted to believing in the importance of recovery swimming. 12x50's at race pace on 90 seconds with only a 200 warm down would cause me kidney failure.

ehoch
October 31st, 2008, 02:25 PM
I know - 200 warm down does nothing to remove lactate.

Need to warm-down more - at least 20 minutes, but sometimes I am just too tired.

New set yesterday - 10x50 on 2 minutes - 2 less reps, add 30 seconds rest. Best average - or second 50 of 100 pace - sub 24 for me.

These sets are somwhat different from my usual race pace sets. I am usually going for 4-6x75 on 6 minutes - or 4 broken 100s. The good thing about the 50s is that I get more reps while swimming almost all of it technically "clean". I can try different things and experiment more. But I don't get the piano effect - we will see how that works out.

Michelina
October 31st, 2008, 04:17 PM
I don't think I have come close to "race pace" in practice since I was 13 years old. :cane: I might hurt myself. :afraid:

hofffam
October 31st, 2008, 06:10 PM
My Friday workouts kind of repeat on a 3 week cycle. They are all lactate production sets.

Today's was 14 x 50 on 2:00 best effort on each one.

First 4 were < 29, first 7 were < 30, slowest was 31+, last one was 29.9 (!)

Warmdown/recovery was 8 x 50 easy with 15 secs rest.

Then a short best effort kick set.

Three weeks ago did the same set and I made 6 < 30. So I improved just a bit.

Allen Stark
November 1st, 2008, 12:50 PM
I cannot attain race-pace during training.
:badday:
Of course you can,you are just looking at it wrong.I can't swim a 100 in workout nearly as fast as I can swim a 100 at a meet,but I can swim a 50 as fast as the 2nd 50 of a 100,and that's race pace.You want to work on your 200 BR,can you swim a 100 at your 200 pace,if not how about a 50 or even a 25?
I swim between 1/2 and 1/4 of each workout at race pace,the rest warm up.cool down and recovery swims.

Glider
November 1st, 2008, 06:38 PM
Instead of how far do you swim, what sets do you do to achieve race pace, and is it effective:

1. What's the race distance you are pacing?
2. What's the race leg distance?
3. What's your desired race pace you are trying to achieve?
4. What are some common set you do to achieve it?
5. What are your recent race-pace results?
6. How does that match up to your current personal best?

For me:

Race pace set 1:
1. Race: 200 Breast
2. Leg: Whole race, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th 50
3. Goal pace: 34+36+36+36-02*= 2:20 (*1st 50 from a push)
4. Set: 2 to 4x200 on 6:00, broken at the 50, :10 rest between 50s
(add up swim time and subtract :02 for a dive to approximate my 200 time)
5. Results: Last Monday:
#1: 35+36+37+38-02 = 2:24
#2: 36+37+38+37-02 = 2:26,
Average for set 2:25
6. Masters Best: 33+36+38+38 = 2:25

Race-pace set 2:
1. Race: 100 Breast
2. Race leg: 2nd 50
3. Goal pace: 33.0
4. Set: 8 to 16x50 on 2:00
5. Results: Last Wednesday: 8x50, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 33, 34
Average for set = 33.1
6. Masters Best: 30.55+34.65=1:05.2 (I may need to shorten the interval)




Of course you can,you are just looking at it wrong.I can't swim a 100 in workout nearly as fast as I can swim a 100 at a meet,but I can swim a 50 as fast as the 2nd 50 of a 100,and that's race pace.You want to work on your 200 BR,can you swim a 100 at your 200 pace,if not how about a 50 or even a 25?
I swim between 1/2 and 1/4 of each workout at race pace,the rest warm up.cool down and recovery swims.

SwimStud
November 1st, 2008, 06:45 PM
Of course you can,you are just looking at it wrong.I can't swim a 100 in workout nearly as fast as I can swim a 100 at a meet,but I can swim a 50 as fast as the 2nd 50 of a 100,and that's race pace.You want to work on your 200 BR,can you swim a 100 at your 200 pace,if not how about a 50 or even a 25?
I swim between 1/2 and 1/4 of each workout at race pace,the rest warm up.cool down and recovery swims.


Well yes I can swim at BR 200 race pace 25's on :40 holding 20. I can't get close to repeats of 100's or 50's of Free at race pace.

2nd half 50 of my 100FR is :33

I'll have to try holding :33 but I think I'll need at least 1:15.
I can repeat 100's at 1:40 now though which is 5 secs faster than last year.

aztimm
November 2nd, 2008, 08:59 PM
My team also typically does a, "Fast Friday," type set with a few different variations. Sometimes it is 50's, sometimes 100's, occasionally even 200's. But my favorite is the choice set on 5 min. For me, it gives enough time to do even 200s and still have time to recover.

As a percentage of overall swimming, I'd estimate this is probably only 10%, as even on these days we'll do non-race pace warm-up/warm-down stuff. However I usually try to do doubles on these days, especially if I like the set, which could put it at 20%+ of my weekly total.

We'll do some other stuff here and there that might fringe on race pace, if done properly. Some descending sets, even longer distances, getting to 90-95%+ may fall in that category. If I include these, it would probably add at least another 5-10% of my weekly total.

I certainly wouldn't call the other stuff I do, "garbage yardage," by any means. We do some very helpful stroke drills, technique focus, etc. A recent set had 20 x 50 on a very tight interval (turned into touch + go for me, not race pace but sure felt like it at the time); again I think it is helpful to have a mix of many things as part of a greater training program. Plus a proper warm-up and warm-down is essential to avoid injury. And I don't see anything wrong with doing a mile for time here and there (I think we probably do that about once every 2-3 months).

mjgold
November 2nd, 2008, 10:58 PM
We do a lot of slower paced (not slow, just not race pace) stuff that focuses on technique. I don't know if it is Popov's philosophy, but I've heard that he trains slow so that when he does it fast, he has the technique. That's the philosophy our coaches have. We do some fast stuff at least once a practice, and sometimes we have days that are mostly sprints and fast-paced sets. I typically keep my pace up to a little below race pace for most of the workout anyway. I'd say that a good 50% of my sets are now done at slightly below race pace. This is a recent development, but it seems to be helping.