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renie
November 1st, 2008, 08:53 PM
I am so disgusted--I've done the TI drills, had lessons, had swim team college kids give me tips, yet I still just can't seem to get the freestyle arm action right. Do you exactly move your arm in the recovery phase the same as you move it in the fingertip drag drills? Or do you do a wind up motion of your shoulder to bring the arm out of the water? No matter what I try, I am so pathetically slow--more often than not, I am feeling like it is all wrong. I am a good breakstroker and decent flyer, and great backstroker, but geez, I need to be able to do the free - I swim about 12 miles a week. Any tips are sooooo appreciated.:bow:

isobel
November 1st, 2008, 09:05 PM
I think the fingertip drag drill is to encourage you to be relaxed during recovery, but that is not how you should be recovering your arms. In my mind, they should be relaxed, pretty close to the water and to you, but not dragging against the water. People recover their arms all different ways (just think of Janet Evans's windmill arms (I think?) recovery, very unique), but recovery is sort of your rest time, so with rotation you should have enough momentum to get them back up to extended pre-pull without wasting a lot of energy. If you are rotating your head too much to breathe or not keeping your body in alignment, you may throw your recovery off, but I take that time as a rest time, such as it is, and try to use very little effort, relying on my rotation and momentum, again, such as it is.

The place my coach says to use the most energy is the pull (duh) but all the way through the pull, and not only energy, but as much speed as you have.

pwb
November 1st, 2008, 09:36 PM
I am so disgusted--I've done the TI drills, had lessons, had swim team college kids give me tips, yet I still just can't seem to get the freestyle arm action right.

Hard to diagnose virtually, but have you had yourself videotaped? Even if you can't get a professional coach to do over/under water video taping, I recommend getting a friend/spouse/significant other to video tape you. Ideally, have them track you both from the side, but then also from straight on. It would be best if you could have someone get you videotaped underwater.

I'd worry less about your recovery over the water and more about your catch and high elbow pull under the water. Many swimmers let their arms drop straight down on the early stage of the pull, losing the major propulsive portion of the pull. At the same time, try to be very conscious of your hip/body rotation. Many swimmers swim too flat; I'm actually a recovering over-rotator.

Typhoons Coach
November 1st, 2008, 09:37 PM
The fingertip drag drill is used to promote a high elbow recovery as well as demonstrating how loose your hands, wrists, elbows can potentially be. Proper recovery (if there is such a thing given the various styles of freestyle...hence the name of the stroke) is a rotated shoulder almost out of the water with a side lateral raise movement (not a windup movement), slightly bent at the elbow (which is high) with loose wrist and fingers utilizing very little energy throughout the recovery phase and into the beginning of the catch.

renie
November 1st, 2008, 10:48 PM
Hard to diagnose virtually, but have you had yourself videotaped? Even if you can't get a professional coach to do over/under water video taping, I recommend getting a friend/spouse/significant other to video tape you. Ideally, have them track you both from the side, but then also from straight on. It would be best if you could have someone get you videotaped underwater.

I'd worry less about your recovery over the water and more about your catch and high elbow pull under the water. Many swimmers let their arms drop straight down on the early stage of the pull, losing the major propulsive portion of the pull. At the same time, try to be very conscious of your hip/body rotation. Many swimmers swim too flat; I'm actually a recovering over-rotator.

Oh, lol, an over-rotator, me too! I am actually finally getting a better feel under the water, am more buoyant, with a better kick and higher body position and improved better rotation. I am very guilty of sort of dying at the pull phase - having been a very bad elbow dropper for my whole life--so this is something I really have to work on,--as well as bilateral breathing--as it seems that when I pull well on one side, the other sides drops.

renie
November 1st, 2008, 10:50 PM
The fingertip drag drill is used to promote a high elbow recovery as well as demonstrating how loose your hands, wrists, elbows can potentially be. Proper recovery (if there is such a thing given the various styles of freestyle...hence the name of the stroke) is a rotated shoulder almost out of the water with a side lateral raise movement (not a windup movement), slightly bent at the elbow (which is high) with loose wrist and fingers utilizing very little energy throughout the recovery phase and into the beginning of the catch.

Thank you for the very nicely defined explanation Typhoons Coach. I will copy this and commit to memory!:bow:

anita
November 1st, 2008, 11:33 PM
I am very guilty of sort of dying at the pull phase - having been a very bad elbow dropper for my whole life--so this is something I really have to work on,--as well as bilateral breathing--as it seems that when I pull well on one side, the other sides drops.

In my opinion, bilateral breathing is not necessary. My left arm drops unless I work on it, but it's getting better now that I'm aware of it--no bilateral breathing necessary.
As for the pull phase, what helped me was doing mid-distance pull w/buoy, working on really long, smooth strokes, using a powerful pull.
This strengthened my chest muscles, as well as my tris.
I started back in May after a 23 year hiatus, but I feel that the pulling sets have really helped my stroke. I am much more cognizant of my physical state in the water than I was as a youth swimmer.
This is what worked for me, anyway.

mjgold
November 2nd, 2008, 06:06 PM
I have come to enjoy the bilateral breathing thing. It helps me stay balanced and go faster while getting enough oxygen. If I'm doing more than 100 yards, I do that weird 2, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3 pattern.

My recovery is like a hybrid of straight arm and relaxed. I don't really worry about it too much--I just let my arm do what it wants to do. I find that if I focus on the recovery, I'll get lazy with something else, and whatever benefit I get out of the recovery doesn't help.

Typhoons Coach
November 4th, 2008, 10:16 AM
working on really long, smooth strokes, using a powerful pull.

This is definitely the key to freestyle; the elongated stroke with max effort and efficiency during the pull phase (as long as the pull technique is semi-correct)!

thewookiee
November 4th, 2008, 10:52 AM
This is definitely the key to freestyle; the elongated stroke with max effort and efficiency during the pull phase (as long as the pull technique is sem-correct)!

How would you define "semi-correct" or "correct" pull tech?

Typhoons Coach
November 4th, 2008, 12:03 PM
How would you define "semi-correct" or "correct" pull tech?

getting your forearm vertical or at least making the attempt to get the forearm vertical and not sweeping under your body.

thewookiee
November 4th, 2008, 12:20 PM
getting your forearm vertical or at least making the attempt to get the forearm vertical and not sweeping under your body.


I think LindsayB said it is more of a early diagonal. From watching some tapes of phelps and others, it appears to be a bit more diagonal first, then vertical as everything takes it's place in the stroke.

mjgold
November 4th, 2008, 02:27 PM
My forearms are vertical, not diagonal. My coaches teach us to do our strokes out to the side, the way you lift yourself out of the pool rather than the S-stroke under your body. For me, keeping it straight and out to the side is more efficient and faster. Ever since I switched to that, I've been taking an average of 16 strokes per length (not stroke cycles, individual arm strokes), and swimming 30s 50-yard frees at a moderate-to-easy pace (quite an improvement considering last month I sprinted a 33s 50-yard). I've also switched to breathing every 3rd stroke, which has helped immensely. If I go diagonal, I get a little less distance per stroke, so I try to keep it nice and vertical.

thewookiee
November 4th, 2008, 02:32 PM
I don't think anyone is talking about s shaped or under the body. Most good vertical forearms do start with a angled down(diagonal looking) forearm that leads to the vertical forearm

mjgold
November 4th, 2008, 02:40 PM
I thought you meant diagonal towards the middle, not diagonal forward. I don't think it's possible to go vertical without going diagonal first.

thewookiee
November 4th, 2008, 03:50 PM
Sorry for the confusion...that' why I hate typing/writing...the thoughts in my head don't translate too well once I try to type them out. I should have put in the direction of travel to help clarify thigns.

I have seen some people try to go vertical straight upon entry...it makes my shoulders cringe.

Typhoons Coach
November 4th, 2008, 03:53 PM
I think LindsayB said it is more of a early diagonal. From watching some tapes of phelps and others, it appears to be a bit more diagonal first, then vertical as everything takes it's place in the stroke.

From your post below it appears that we are on the same page...the goal of the pull that I teach is to get an early vertical forearm which requires you to have a quick catch (early diagonal forearm) prior to the vertical forearm. Like you mentioned; everything has a time and a place in freestyle.

renie
November 4th, 2008, 04:09 PM
I have come to enjoy the bilateral breathing thing. It helps me stay balanced and go faster while getting enough oxygen. If I'm doing more than 100 yards, I do that weird 2, 2, 3, 2, 2, 3 pattern.

My recovery is like a hybrid of straight arm and relaxed. I don't really worry about it too much--I just let my arm do what it wants to do. I find that if I focus on the recovery, I'll get lazy with something else, and whatever benefit I get out of the recovery doesn't help.

Thanks, I find the bilateral breathing throws off my pull but really gets me on target as far as balance. Sounds like I should concentrate more on the pull and worry less on proper recovery form.

renie
November 4th, 2008, 04:16 PM
From your post below it appears that we are on the same page...the goal of the pull that I teach is to get an early vertical forearm which requires you to have a quick catch (early diagonal forearm) prior to the vertical forearm. Like you mentioned; everything has a time and a place in freestyle.

So this is where I get all confused - what is "early diagonal" ? Is it the reaching straight towards the wall with hand/arm, then a slight turn outwards of the hand before the vertical pull? Do you really need to do that? I find when I do that, I get all messed up. Is the vertical pull really bad on the shoulders without the early diagonal?

mjgold
November 4th, 2008, 04:19 PM
That's what I say, but I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me on that. I find that most people have difficulty focusing on multiple aspects of a stroke at the same time, and I think that working on the pull is more important that working on the recovery. A good recovery will conserve some energy and potentially increase your turnover; however, if you have a mediocre pull, that won't matter much because you'll be wasting energy in the pull and not going very far per stroke.

It might be because of the way I warm up my arms before I work out, but my arms are more relaxed when I recover them almost straight with a floppy hand than when I try to keep my hands below the elbow. I think it's all about just doing whatever is comfortable for you.

mjgold
November 4th, 2008, 04:24 PM
So this is where I get all confused - what is "early diagonal" ? Is it the reaching straight towards the wall with hand/arm, then a slight turn outwards of the hand before the vertical pull? Do you really need to do that? I find when I do that, I get all messed up. Is the vertical pull really bad on the shoulders without the early diagonal?

Trying to go vertical immediately is terrible for your shoulders because it forces it into an awkward position. Early vertical isn't really a necessary term I think, and can add confusion to an already jargon-filled discussion. Essentially, it means that you begin the catch and get to EVF as soon as possible. In order to go from reach to EVF, your arm has to be diagonal at some point--it's just not physically possible to go from having your arm straight to having it vertical without moving it diagonally.

Also, the catch doesn't have to be an outward sweeping motion like many people teach. The new thing is to have a down and directly backward catch followed by a straight arm pull. Our former head coach would teach this to the competitive swimmers and teach the s-pull to the recreational swimmers because the s-pull is supposed to be easier on the shoulders; however, if you're looking to compete, it seems like the straight pull is faster. I find it more efficient and faster, but see what works for you.

thewookiee
November 4th, 2008, 04:30 PM
It might be because of the way I warm up my arms before I work out, but my arms are more relaxed when I recover them almost straight with a floppy hand than when I try to keep my hands below the elbow. I think it's all about just doing whatever is comfortable for you.

I agree with you. It is what is most comfortable and efficient. I find I have better relaxation with a hybrid type recovery too. A high elbow throws off my timing and comfort.

slowfish
November 4th, 2008, 04:45 PM
I've been trying to revamp my freestyle after seeing a videotape of myself :eeew:

I've been watching the DVD of Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen. There were a couple of things that hit home that I was doing wrong and i think i'm correctly. Perfect example is that i was crossing the center line. I've been faithfully doing the heads up freestyle drill where you finish swimming normally. When i first started doing this, the wider arms felt strange, now they don't. It's been fun to have something just click and feel right.

But i'm struggling with the initial pull. I know i'm loosing power and think it is because i'm dropping my shoulder.

Anyone have drills to force me to get this part correct so that eventually, it will feel normal?

mjgold
November 4th, 2008, 06:03 PM
Our coach has us do sculling drills that are basically just the first part of the pull. You do the catch and until you get vertical, then stop and do it again. We do it with two arms at a time, because it's hard to go anywhere doing this with two arms, let alone one. Also, you're not supposed to kick very much. That helps a lot with the catch and the initial pull.

I forgot, we do usually 4x25 of these, sometimes 8x25.

Typhoons Coach
November 4th, 2008, 09:45 PM
Trying to go vertical immediately is terrible for your shoulders because it forces it into an awkward position. Early vertical isn't really a necessary term I think, and can add confusion to an already jargon-filled discussion. Essentially, it means that you begin the catch and get to EVF as soon as possible. In order to go from reach to EVF, your arm has to be diagonal at some point--it's just not physically possible to go from having your arm straight to having it vertical without moving it diagonally.

Also, the catch doesn't have to be an outward sweeping motion like many people teach. The new thing is to have a down and directly backward catch followed by a straight arm pull. Our former head coach would teach this to the competitive swimmers and teach the s-pull to the recreational swimmers because the s-pull is supposed to be easier on the shoulders; however, if you're looking to compete, it seems like the straight pull is faster. I find it more efficient and faster, but see what works for you.

I absolutely agree with everything here. Another key factor to the EVF is the rotation throughout the freestyle as well. Either way, excellent post!

Typhoons Coach
November 4th, 2008, 09:50 PM
I've been trying to revamp my freestyle after seeing a videotape of myself :eeew:

I've been watching the DVD of Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen. There were a couple of things that hit home that I was doing wrong and i think i'm correctly. Perfect example is that i was crossing the center line. I've been faithfully doing the heads up freestyle drill where you finish swimming normally. When i first started doing this, the wider arms felt strange, now they don't. It's been fun to have something just click and feel right.

But i'm struggling with the initial pull. I know i'm loosing power and think it is because i'm dropping my shoulder.

Anyone have drills to force me to get this part correct so that eventually, it will feel normal?

There is a quick catch drill that you can do to help with this phase of the pull. Essentially what you would do is elongate the time that you enter in the water, fully extend on your axis and as soon as you are fully extended get your forearm vertical as quickly as possible (you can measure this by saying the word "quick"). There might be a couple of swimmers that don't like this drill depending on durability of your shoulders, etc...

Overall, though, in my opinion you need to find a coach that will consistently work with you if you are looking for the technique aspect of the strokes...again, just my opinion. All the best!

Stevepowell
November 7th, 2008, 02:06 PM
My free is(was) probably flat style having learned in the 60's. Thanks to the above post(s) the light is beginning to dawn. Last night I tried letting my arm stretch fwd and sink down once it's in the water. This kinda naturally caused my shoulder to dip or roll as it sank.
Once I wanted to grab the water I bent my wrist a little along with the elbow to get the hand perpendicular to travel. This caused a feeling like climbing over my arm/hand.

Also I found that I'm not strong enough to keep my forearm totally vertical during the big part of the pull when my arm is straight down and a little past. I am definitely out of shape and this style is new to me.

Hopefully the above rambling makes some sense and any advice/criticism is welcome and thanked in advance.

slowfish
November 7th, 2008, 05:47 PM
hey thanks typhoons and mj,

i'll play around with these drills to see if something clicks. i really need to have someone stay on my butt about correct technique. but most of the masters coaches just give a workout without much in the way of corrections.

fanstone
November 7th, 2008, 06:13 PM
Could it be possible to swim with S shaped, going with hands all the way to thighs while training and then when swimming 50 or maybe 100 free in competition to go with straight pull till belly? Train with care not to damage shoulder, doing lots of rotation and exaggerating the movements. Then, come race day, just swim the the fastest possible, which probably means losing some style...I guess when swimming longer distances such as 400 and 8000 and open water one must keep the style and technique and stretch and do the complete S so as to last longer at a medium pace.

mjgold
November 7th, 2008, 08:02 PM
I would refer back to Ande's tip: train how you race, or something like that. If you train using the s-stroke, you are going to race with the s-stroke. The straight pull doesn't go to the belly, it goes all the way past the hips. The length of the stroke is the same, there is just no change in direction of the arm. If you don't try to force the EVF immediately, your shoulders should be okay as long as you don't push yourself too hard to fast.

I think it really depends on your goals. If your goal is to swim for fun and to get better with the occasional meet, I would suggest the s-stroke, as it is a bit easier on the shoulders. If you want to compete regularly and look to really get some great times, possibly break some records or post some top times, I would suggest the straight pull. Either way, you should make sure to stretch regularly.

mazzy
November 8th, 2008, 05:59 AM
I would suggest the s-stroke, as it is a bit easier on the shoulders.


The classic I-stroke, by aussie like thorpe, is very shoulders friendly, done with good technique is easy on the shoulder better that s-shape type.
You pull with the lats nearly all the time, there's no change of directions, the upper arm move in an arc-type trajectory that it's the more natural for the shoulders.
The key is the patience at the start to position the arm before to start the pull.
If you force the EVF too early for you you're looking for trouble for sure.

Regular exercise for RC is a must for whatever style of pull.

The classic I-stroke require a 90 degrees angle between the lower and the upper arm.

There're a lot of different variants of I-stroke, the more your hands go deep in the water( elbow deeper, 90+ degrees) more strain you put in your shoulder and less use of lats.

mjgold
November 8th, 2008, 11:16 AM
I didn't realize there was a specific I-type of stroke. I just assumed that was a variant of the s-stroke that he does, considering he does change directions with his hand when he gets to his lower torso, since he is still swimming under his body as opposed to out to the side. Watch videos of him swimming front the front, and it's fairly easy to see this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1AwgCVdjC4). If you want to call this the I-stroke (never heard of that), then that would be good for someone who wants to compete but wants to save some strain on his shoulders.

fanstone
November 8th, 2008, 03:11 PM
Hey, Michael, I was referring to the moment I start my recovery. If I am going fast, I tend to end the push sooner, isn't that what most people do? I think I have already asked this question here before. Assuming the last part of the stroke isn't accelerating as much, would it be more efficient to start a new cycle as your hands cross the belly button?

geochuck
November 8th, 2008, 04:21 PM
I don't think any of you know what is meant by EVF. If done properly you should not have shoulder problems. If you do,- consult with Tom let him explain it to you.

His concept is nothing like what most of you are talking about. Here is the link be sure to watch all 23 sections of this http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/tomtopo-78276-pp-swimming-5-without-narration-Important-anEarly-Vertical-Forearm-Look-Results-Pictures-Search-Dreaded-Dro-w-Entertainment-ppt-powerpoint/



Fanstone I would still finish on my thigh no matter swimming sprints or distance, just a little lower on the thigh when swimming distance. Too many people watching videos and forgetting the deflection of light rays underwater (refraction).

The "I" stroke is a "S" stroke but because we rotate more then we did when the "S" stroke first appeared, the "S" now appears to be an "I". My opinion...

mjgold
November 8th, 2008, 07:16 PM
Sorry for the confusion George, but I wasn't refering to getting shoulder problems from EVF, but rather from stroking out to the side vs. the s-stroke. I haven't experienced shoulder problems either way, but was reporting what my coaches have told me. I am very good at not saying what I mean. What I mean by forcing EVF immediately is trying to hook your shoulders up so that your arm enters almost vertically. I don't know why anyone would swim that way, but I've seen people do it.



Hey, Michael, I was referring to the moment I start my recovery. If I am going fast, I tend to end the push sooner, isn't that what most people do? I think I have already asked this question here before. Assuming the last part of the stroke isn't accelerating as much, would it be more efficient to start a new cycle as your hands cross the belly button?

I'm not the expert, but I think swimming in an almost-catch-up manner is the most efficient. Someone mentioned Ian Thorpe, and that's exactly how he swims. When I swim front crawl, my recovering hand enters the water about the time that my other arm is under my shoulder, even when I'm going fast. When I do it right, I feel like I'm skipping over the water. It's a weird feeling.

Typhoons Coach
November 8th, 2008, 07:53 PM
I don't think any of you know what is meant by EVF. If done properly you should not have shoulder problems. If you do,- consult with Tom let him explain it to you.

His concept is nothing like what most of you are talking about. Here is the link be sure to watch all 23 sections of this http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/tomtopo-78276-pp-swimming-5-without-narration-Important-anEarly-Vertical-Forearm-Look-Results-Pictures-Search-Dreaded-Dro-w-Entertainment-ppt-powerpoint/

On the contrary, Geo, this is exactly what I was talking about. I haven't seen these slides before, but they are truly helpful to explaining it to age-groupers who are having a hard time understanding the concept of EVF! So, thank you for that!

mazzy
November 9th, 2008, 04:17 AM
The "I" stroke is a "S" stroke but because we rotate more then we did when the "S" stroke first appeared, the "S" now appears to be an "I". My opinion...

Well geochuck, IMO you forget the point of view of the swimmers to really differentiate the two stroke, if you call I-stroke the stroke where you get into EVF and your insweep/upsweep is done with the hand out on your side and it don't cross under your body, like showed by Hackett/Thorpe.

From the deck with the rotation side-to-side whatever you do, you'll see a 3D S-shape like movement, but if you consider the classic s-shape stroke and the point of view of the swimmers, the swimmers draw a intentional S-shape motion with his hands, in I-Stroke the swimmers draw a nearly perfect I after he get into EVF.
Moreover they are based from very different principe, from lift/drag theory the s-shape, from 3rd law of Newton the I-stroke.
You can win gold medals with both of them but they're different IMHO.

tomtopo
November 10th, 2008, 08:16 AM
The following videos and information may help you. Good luck!

The following under water videos are fun to watch and will help everyone understand that every swimmer to greater and much lesser degrees have an EVF. EVF is a catch and all swimmers should want to improve it. Don’t let some tell you that EVF is front quadrant swimming because EVF starts in the first quadrant and continues at the beginning of the second quadrant.

Each competitive stroke can be separated into four different segments or quadrants. The front quadrant is where the catch (EVF) “sets-up” the stroke into an effective propulsive position; the second quadrant is where power from a properly set up hand and forearm position occurs; the third quadrant where the release from the power phase and then recovery is initiated; and the fourth quadrant is where the recovery makes the transition to the entry. The all important EVF position or catch is located in the first quadrant and beginning of the second quadrant of each stroke.

Tell me what you think of the following videos. Simply copy and paste the URL’s into your browser and the information should come up. Good Luck Coach T.

Elbows High By Robert Boder / German translation: Felix Gmünder http://www.svl.ch/ElbowsHigh/ This video will say error – simply delete the error page and it should come up.

Faster Swimming With an Early Vertical Forearm Position in All Strokes
http://www.h2oustonswims.org/article...ped_elbow.html
http://swimming.about.com/od/swimtec...opcatchevf.htm


In Search of the Dreaded Dropped Elbow by Coach Emmett Hines

http://www.h2oustonswims.org/article...ped_elbow.html

http://www.swim.ee/videos/index_example.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6Efz6HREz8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtfpf...eature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub-_L...l\Open\Command

Grant Hackett

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iwvtu...eature=related

Ziegler Holds off Laure Manaudou

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om48Q...eature=related

A picture frame by frame comparison of Thorpe and Hackett

http://www.svl.ch/CrawlAnalysis/

EVF Powerpoint website

http://www.authorstream.com/presenta...-narration-Imp ortant-anEarly-Vertical-Forearm-Look-Results-Pictures-Search-Dreaded-Dro-w-Entertainment-p pt-powerpoint/
TYPE IN THE LETTERS EVF AFTER IT COMES UP


http://swimming.about.com/od/swimtec...opcatchevf.htm

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=tomtopo&view=videos

http://www.swimmingcoach.org/pdf/EVF...olskiSMALL.pdf

geochuck
November 10th, 2008, 04:12 PM
By the way thanks for the update Tomtopo very good stuff.

Here is a good video of Thorpe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8egC7PbOME&eurl=http://mywebsite.register.com/cgi-bin/update/setvar:CURSUBPAGE:H.0XE5:+main.html?IABC_WSN_SERVE R=swimdownhill.comiurl=http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/-8egC7PbOME/hqdefault.jpg

I really have trouble seeing what some of you are saying about Thorpe I still think you are seeing water refraction in several of his from the side video shots. His stroke looks pretty close in and not the wide pull some are talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P31XJ16C4Ag&feature=related Maybe I need new glasses.

zegmal
November 10th, 2008, 07:03 PM
Fistgloves work great for teaching you how to anchor your arm in the water and then use your back muscles to pulls yourself forward. Some people try them once and hate the sensation so much they never use them again, but stick with them and they will seriously improve your efficiency.

Typhoons Coach
November 10th, 2008, 10:37 PM
By the way thanks for the update Tomtopo very good stuff.

Here is a good video of Thorpe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8egC7PbOME&eurl=http://mywebsite.register.com/cgi-bin/update/setvar:CURSUBPAGE:H.0XE5:+main.html?IABC_WSN_SERVE R=swimdownhill.comiurl=http://i2.ytimg.com/vi/-8egC7PbOME/hqdefault.jpg

I really have trouble seeing what some of you are saying about Thorpe I still think you are seeing water refraction in several of his from the side video shots. His stroke looks pretty close in and not the wide pull some are talking about. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P31XJ16C4Ag&feature=related Maybe I need new glasses.

I can see how these videos can be seen as a "wide" stroke, but compared to a lot of swimmers that I have seen it is still a "tight" stroke; notice how his elbow slightly comes out but he brings it right back in (the video for the front view).

geochuck
November 11th, 2008, 10:32 AM
Here is another of Thorpe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpxZyUYvqU

and another http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcCP_SLvNgw&feature=related




I can see how these videos can be seen as a "wide" stroke, but compared to a lot of swimmers that I have seen it is still a "tight" stroke; notice how his elbow slightly comes out but he brings it right back in (the video for the front view).

mazzy
November 11th, 2008, 11:21 AM
Here is another of Thorpe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDpxZyUYvqU

and another http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcCP_SLvNgw&feature=related

BTW, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm-vSqlWmgs this it's even better, forget the very last part.

but what is the point ?

The thorpe's hands don't draw a S-shaped motion at all from every point of view, his elbow isn't as high and as out as the Hackett's ones but it's essentially the same stroke, hands enter at shoulders level, front quadrant type, high elbow, rounded off at the hip, look like a single peak velocity type.

geochuck
November 11th, 2008, 01:17 PM
Mazzy I have no idea what your point is. I do do not see an "S" stroke when Thorpe swims. To me it is a straiight in line stroke. Side shots are not even worth looking at. The hands follow a straight line.

mazzy
November 11th, 2008, 04:02 PM
I really have trouble seeing what some of you are saying about Thorpe I still think you are seeing water refraction in several of his from the side video shots. His stroke looks pretty close in and not the wide pull some are talking about. Maybe I need new glasses.

geochuck, my point is simple, Thorpe is a great master of I-stroke, and s-shape stroke and I-stroke are different, period.

I've a great deal of respect for you, I simply don't see reason because you need new glass :).

There're different "version" of I-stroke, every world-class swimmer perfect his particular version, nothing new there, someone have a wider pull that the others.

You talk about that his stroke is pretty close to his body...
well, yes!
but I've no read that somebody is talking about his great wide pull...
so I've asked you what is your point.

BTW Thopre roll a lot on his side, so a close path is better.
if you look at some sprinters that roll less, you'll see a wider pull, I think that the best examples is K.L. Joyce. look at this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m771PnexCgI

her upper arm is nealy parallel to the deck/floor

geochuck
November 12th, 2008, 08:53 AM
The "I" stroke in my eyes puts everything that Doc Councillman talked about in the "S" stroke into play. The "S" motion he talked about because of shoudler rotation is still done. But it now appears to be an straight line when under water. I have had a bout of montezuma's revenge, when I am feeling a little better I will get in the water and make some videos and show you what I mean. Wide elbows I do not mind but wide hands to me are a no no. Yet it appears a couple of swimmers also use wide hands.

Mazzy I do understand what you are saying. The go swim video is one I have sent to many but if you look closely she has more of an old school "S" stroke. when she wears the paddles it is more like an "I" stroke. What is this old guy doing hands in elbows out http://oregonmasters.ning.com/video/video/show?id=545489%3AVideo%3A6784