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View Full Version : Would like comments on Fly & Breast



funkyfish
November 11th, 2008, 09:58 PM
Just swam a short course meet this past weekend. I'm providing a couple of links to my 50 fly and 50 breast. If you can make anything out, I'd appreciate any critical feedback on either of them. I think my fly is still a little too "wavy." Don't know what to think about breaststroke as I'm still learning it. I swam the fly in :24.80 and the breast in :33.53 (these are yds). I'm the one in the yellow "smiley face" cap.

50yd fly
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiVKLF4IGJY

50yd breast
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIfrYA5F464

I also swam 100yd free, 100yd fly, and 50 free, but don't want to share any of those as I had goggle problems on all three. Thanks in advance.
:bliss::bouncing::banana:

mjgold
November 11th, 2008, 10:49 PM
Two things real quick: first, be careful on your start. It looks like you did a couple of dolphin kicks there before your pull. If you didn't, it must have been the water and the camera angle, but it sure looked like it. You're only allowed one dolphin kick, and the downward part has to be done after you start your pull. Also, your start was not so good. You were sort of piked, so your feet and head entered the water at the same time. You want to enter the water through one hole, and you want that hole as small as possible. You also don't want to be sitting back when you get set. I noticed when I looked at your fly video that you are almost sitting down when you get set. All that does is waste time and energy getting your center of gravity over the front of the block. You want to be as close to falling off as you can without actually doing it. I used to do the same thing, and my coach had me look directly behind me with my chin tucked to my chest, and it helped a lot.

Second, your recovery is way too slow. You need to accelerate your arms through the recovery. You accelerate through the insweep, but stop when your hands come together. That's a pretty classic mistake, but you can fix that pretty easily. On a related note, your insweep comes back way too far. Your hands are almost at the bottom of your chest, and you want them around your head. I try not to let them come any farther than my chin.

Good job on the breast. That's a great time.

david.margrave
November 12th, 2008, 01:12 AM
looks pretty good to me, but as mjgold noticed you snuck an extra dolphin kick in there on the breaststroke start. you're playing a dangerous game with the judges!

FlyQueen
November 12th, 2008, 08:21 AM
Your breaststroke looks like it's all kick to me. It doesn't look like your pull is helping you out. Try to narrow your pull in. Try to keep your hands in the direction of travel/don't scoop down. Watch those extra kicks at the beginning, too - especially in an end lane!!! :afraid:

abc
November 12th, 2008, 09:00 AM
On your fly, I definitely agree that your wasting energy moving up and down. Your arms also seem to loop up instead of recovering in more of a horizontal fashion. Get rid of the wasted motion and concentrate on driving yourself forward, not on undulating so much and keep your breathing flatter. When you breathe, you're coming up way too high.

On your breastroke, get your hips up. When you finish the stroke, you should also be looking more towards the bottom of the pool. You need more of a wave action to your breastroke in my opinion. Your hips should be up, drving you upper body forward on the recovery. You're generating too much resistance.

funkyfish
November 12th, 2008, 09:04 AM
Two things real quick: first, be careful on your start. It looks like you did a couple of dolphin kicks there before your pull. If you didn't, it must have been the water and the camera angle, but it sure looked like it. You're only allowed one dolphin kick, and the downward part has to be done after you start your pull. Also, your start was not so good. You were sort of piked, so your feet and head entered the water at the same time. You want to enter the water through one hole, and you want that hole as small as possible. You also don't want to be sitting back when you get set. I noticed when I looked at your fly video that you are almost sitting down when you get set. All that does is waste time and energy getting your center of gravity over the front of the block. You want to be as close to falling off as you can without actually doing it. I used to do the same thing, and my coach had me look directly behind me with my chin tucked to my chest, and it helped a lot.

Second, your recovery is way too slow. You need to accelerate your arms through the recovery. You accelerate through the insweep, but stop when your hands come together. That's a pretty classic mistake, but you can fix that pretty easily. On a related note, your insweep comes back way too far. Your hands are almost at the bottom of your chest, and you want them around your head. I try not to let them come any farther than my chin.

Good job on the breast. That's a great time.

Thanks everyone for the comments so far, please keep them coming. I believe I only took one dolphin kick, but as I'm still learning it's possible I took 2 (I was prepared for the possible dqthe results haven't been posted so it may still happen, though they didn't say anything to me at the meet). So the dolphin kick has to occur after/during the underwater pull, correct?

I think I understand/comprehend the other critiques and should be able to work on those in practice. Since I don't have access to a coach right now I greatly appreciate the comments.

Also, while I'm aware of my "piking" issue I have yet to figure out how to correct it. If anyone has any specific suggestions/drills I'd appreciate it. It's hard to find starting blocks where I live during the winter but if I knew of some drills or something I can get to a pool that's about 40 minutes away and do some practicing.

Thanks again to everyone. :banana:

mjgold
November 12th, 2008, 10:45 AM
You might want to consider switching to the track start. Using the track start gets you in the water pretty quickly and in a pretty straight line. The problem is you are jumping up and out and basically landing like you would if you jumped off the dresser onto your bed. You should try to enter the water sooner. You can keep using the grip start (it's what I use for breaststroke), but keep your legs straighter on the blocks.

Allen Stark
November 12th, 2008, 10:49 AM
Re: yor BR,you snuck one past the turn judge.As well as the 2 dolphin kicks you have almost completed your 2nd pull before your head breaks the surface on both your start and turn.You must break the surface before your insweep begins.
Pulling too far back is messing up your entire stroke.It gets you caught with your hands together before the recovery giving your stroke a"start ,stop" action.A good drill for you is the "lane line" drill.Lean over a lane line so it is under each armpit,then do BR pull.That way your hands can't come back too far.

USMSarah
November 12th, 2008, 11:34 AM
Your breaststroke looks like it's all kick to me. It doesn't look like your pull is helping you out. Try to narrow your pull in. Try to keep your hands in the direction of travel/don't scoop down.

I just wanted to add to FQ's point... I noticed your head bobbing a bit when you came up for air. While you work on that pull, keep your head still - when your head goes back under water, keep your head in the same position, go into a nice streamline... work that glide on every stroke.

33's a nice time. :applaud:
Watch those dolphin kicks. ;)

Redbird Alum
November 12th, 2008, 01:50 PM
Funky -

Agree with many of the posters here...

Regarding your fly, there is an excellent Fly stroke technique article in this months USMS Swimmer magazine that would help with your head/body/recovery issues. Has a nice set of pictures showing bad (50-something make) versus good (20-something female) examples for all of these items.

FlyQueen
November 12th, 2008, 01:52 PM
On the fly ...

lot's of wasted motion up and down. Try not to let you feet come out of the water on your kick. This should help out a bit. Don't over catch - the recovery should be really relaxed and you should feel like you are laying your arms into the water - DO NOT force it. Try to drag your chin along the surface of the water when you breathe.


Good drill:

one fly stroke with forehead out (instead of breathing)
one fly stroke with eyes out (instead of breathing)
one fly stroke with chin out (instead of breathing)

hofffam
November 12th, 2008, 01:58 PM
I agree with Allen - you had a lenient or sleepy stroke judge during your breaststroke race. I think your 2nd pull started before your head broke the surface.

Good comments above although it is a lot to try to work on.

My thought on your fly is that overall your timing and rhythm are good. You look like you are making a conscious effort bend your arms when they recover over the water. You seem to be trying to get your fingertips to point into the water. Instead I suggest you straighten your arms during the recovery. Let your arms+hands hit the water at shoulder width fully extended in front of you. Your pull will be longer, your recovery more relaxed, and it may flatten your stroke slightly.

Just a comment on Youtube - I have been experimenting with videos on Youtube. I found better picture quality results when you render your video as WMV files with a 640x480 resolution. You'll see less pixelation in the Youtube video.

One video I put up on Youtube this week is linked below. If you have a good internet connection Youtube will let you select "watch in high quality" and the picture is noticably better. (I wish it were me in the video).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gx0Goh9VNo

Add: that 24.8 is a very good 50 fly time!

pwolf66
November 12th, 2008, 02:46 PM
Just swam a short course meet this past weekend. I'm providing a couple of links to my 50 fly and 50 breast. If you can make anything out, I'd appreciate any critical feedback on either of them. I think my fly is still a little too "wavy." Don't know what to think about breaststroke as I'm still learning it. I swam the fly in :24.80

Jeez, 24.8 for 50 Fly? Who am I to offer advice. Nice swim.

But because I can't resist.

Fly:
You're chopping your arms into the water on the recovery instead of settling the hands, elbows and arms into the water at the same time.
Breathe forward not up when you breathe. Your head is popping upwards.

Breast:
Wow, thank god it's Masters where there are lots of lanes per S&T judge.
You need to shorten your pull and make it more of a sculling motion than a pull. Your hands should not even reach your shoulders on the pull and yours are going 3-4 inches past the shoulder.

Nice swims

Midas
November 12th, 2008, 03:37 PM
I only saw one dolphin kick on the breaststroke pulldowns and I fully endorse doing the kick at the commencement of the pulldown like you did. Don't change that unless and until you start getting DQ'd for it.

I agree with others that you start your second pull (and almost kick) before surfacing and that is clearly against the rules. Try to work on being closer to the surface by the end of your breaststroke kick.

On your start (especially in the butterfly race), it appears your feet are hitting the water around the same time as your hands (and before the rest of your body). You should work on your starts to try to enter entirely through the "same hole" made by your hands. No need to go to a track start if you're comfortable with a grab start. Some people even think grab starts are slightly faster.

Your head is out-of-synch on the breaststroke. It's popping up too late, and that probably slows you down. Your head should be coming up on your outsweep. Yours comes up only after you have nearly completed your insweep.

I think you're dropping your elbows too much on your insweep. Try to keep your arms more out in front of you.

You're a faster butterflyer than me so I have no comments on that! Great swim!

srcoyote
November 12th, 2008, 04:41 PM
Starting advice: In order to learn to have your body enter the water in one spot, our coaches would drill us by holding a pole or kickboard at a reasonable distance from the blocks. Our goal was to leap out over the object and avoid touching it with any part of our bodies. If you're working out alone try using a swim noodle floating. Best to work on starting in the deep end though as your over compensation may lead sto excessively deep starts to begin with.

As to the track start vs. grab start, I prefer the grab, but there are many swimmers much better than I who use one or the other.

Hope that helps. I have no other advice on the strokes that hasn't been given. Your fly time was faster than mine, and my successes were almost always start and turn-based rather than stroke-based.

Allen Stark
November 12th, 2008, 05:13 PM
Your head is out-of-synch on the breaststroke. It's popping up too late, and that probably slows you down. Your head should be coming up on your outsweep. Yours comes up only after you have nearly completed your insweep.


Your head may be a little late,but I disagree with Midas.The head should come up during the insweep.At that point you are automatically generating some vertical forces so you can breathe without raising your head.

mjgold
November 12th, 2008, 05:28 PM
Watching Kitajima and Hansen, they start tilting their heads up during the outsweep, but don't actually break the surface until the insweep. Check this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepARhH8MlU) out and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ_KVpM1y-M).

Big AL
November 12th, 2008, 07:42 PM
Your head may be a little late,but I disagree with Midas.The head should come up during the insweep.At that point you are automatically generating some vertical forces so you can breathe without raising your head.

Agreed. Your hands almost push your face out of the water to breath and lunge forward to begin the next arm stroke.

Allen Stark
November 12th, 2008, 08:14 PM
I watched it again and the breathing problem flows(or doesn't flow) from bringing your hands too far back.Due to that,you don't get lift from your insweep and so must lift your head to breathe.

funkyfish
November 13th, 2008, 09:54 PM
Just wanted to say thanks again, I've tried putting some of the comments made to use in practice tonight. I've noticed that on my fly if I relax a bit on my recovery while trying to bring the arms to the sides (just over the water), I'm able to cover some more distance with a bit less effort in about the same time. I'm also working on my stroke and hip position on the breast. Again thanks.
:wave: