Ban the tech suits?

[Allen Stark]

I am just back from the SPMA meet where all the top finisher were wearing the latest generation tech suits,mostly B-70s(or were named Jeff Commings.)I have here to for been in favor of the suits,but now I am not so sure.First,they eliminate the old bench marks.I went my fastest 100m BR in 5 yr in my LZR,but it was only .3 sec faster than I did untapered 5 wk earlier in my first swim in the LZR.So was my swim good or not,I'm not sure.Also,instead of focusing on technique or pace I found myself ruminating over aspects of the suits,how many more swims did the suit have,is it the right size,was the reason I didn't get better results from my B-70 because it was too big?etc.The B-70 has somewhat mitigated the "too expensive,not durable" problem,but for how long.
Lets say a company comes up with a suit that is much faster,say 4 sec/100.Further that it is very expensive(say $1000) lasts 4 swims and is very hard to make so that quantities are always limited and the fastest way to get one is to bid up to $3000 on ebay. Now lets say your nemesis has one,or that getting one is your best chance to get TT or AA or a ZR or WR,or that your child is close to making JO cuts,or finally beating his/her nemesis etc. Is it worth it and where does it stop?

[inflictfreedom]

I think the value of these suits depends on the wearer.

If you compete in situations where the best times are often determined by split seconds and are working towards a professional swimming career or have the benefit of endorsements ... then sure go for it, the advantage makes sense. Otherwise I can't really understand the cost benefit of them. Why not just swim fast in a reasonably fast suit, enjoy your races and have fun with that money saved.

I'll vote: No,they are the greatest thing since sliced bread

[haroldbuck]

Flawed poll, I don't like the options.

I voted no: you can't put the genie back in the bottle. If they'd wanted to ban innovative swimsuits, they needed to nip it in the bud, not wait until they've been used for years, with scores of records set.

And if you're going to limit suits, why not limit how fast they can make the pools, too? There was a lot of talk about how fast a pool they had in Beijing.

[The Fortress]

I am just back from the SPMA meet where all the top finisher were wearing the latest generation tech suits,mostly B-70s(or were named Jeff Commings.)I have here to for been in favor of the suits,but now I am not so sure.First,they eliminate the old bench marks.I went my fastest 100m BR in 5 yr in my LZR,but it was only .3 sec faster than I did untapered 5 wk earlier in my first swim in the LZR.So was my swim good or not,I'm not sure.Also,instead of focusing on technique or pace I found myself ruminating over aspects of the suits,how many more swims did the suit have,is it the right size,was the reason I didn't get better results from my B-70 because it was too big?etc.The B-70 has somewhat mitigated the "too expensive,not durable" problem,but for how long.
Lets say a company comes up with a suit that is much faster,say 4 sec/100.Further that it is very expensive(say $1000) lasts 4 swims and is very hard to make so that quantities are always limited and the fastest way to get one is to bid up to $3000 on ebay. Now lets say your nemesis has one,or that getting one is your best chance to get TT or AA or a ZR or WR,or that your child is close to making JO cuts,or finally beating his/her nemesis etc. Is it worth it and where does it stop?

Is this a masters question or general question about swimming?

For myself, I am willing to pony up for a B70 every once in awhile, as I was ponying up for Pros. But, a key appeal of the B70 for me is durability. I'm not willing to pay the current cost of the LZR or some other exorbitant cost for an ultra suit used for only a few swims. If my nemeses can, and it's really that effective, I guess they'll beat me.

I was thinking Gull was dead on with his prior comment that suit technology hadn't advanced much and then, presto, we've had long overdue advancement in the last couple years. Is there really any possibility that there is already new suit technology that could produce huge time drops? Or is this purely philosophical?

[Paul Smith]

It' masters...leave it alone and Fort is correct...you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

You also always have the "John Smith Option"...he has challenged a group of backstrokers to an old school 50 back next year (location to be determined)...the basics are:

- $100 on the back of your block winner take all
- Vintage speedo briefs...preferably the baby blue/white vertical stripe version
- Toes over the lip start
- No SDK's
- John Naber style "bucket turns"
- Compy goggles (Britt wants to go "older" school and not allow goggles at all

Meet directors can have fun with this kind of stuff...although we didn't have much interest at ASU last month we offered a 4k event...I wasn't at Indy when Tim Garton won the 50m kick event but would enter one if offered again...the Aussie model of having 400's of back, breast and fly and an 800IM...why not an old school suit event?

[The Fortress]

It' masters...leave it alone and Fort is correct...you can't put the genie back in the bottle.

You also always have the "John Smith Option"...he has challenged a group of backstrokers to an old school 50 back next year (location to be determined)...the basics are:

- $100 on the back of your block winner take all
- Vintage speedo briefs...preferably the baby blue/white vertical stripe version
- Toes over the lip start
- No SDK's
- John Naber style "bucket turns"
- Compy goggles (Britt wants to go "older" school and not allow goggles at all

Meet directors can have fun with this kind of stuff...although we didn't have much interest at ASU last month we offered a 4k event...I wasn't at Indy when Tim Garton won the 50m kick event but would enter one if offered again...the Aussie model of having 400's of back, breast and fly and an 800IM...why not an old school suit event?

I think it's a great idea. Having some old school or kicking races or other unconventional events would be fun. And masters meets should be fun, too, not just bearing down and gnashing your teeth over tenths of a second. Please, though, those among us that are blind need our goggles.

[hofffam]

I don't like the choices in the poll so I won't answer.

I don't think we can go back. The questions in the original post such as was it the right size will go away as these suits become more common.

I wonder if the growing attention, especially at the age group level, on these suits will drive manufacturers to lower the prices and make them more available? If the suits were $100 instead of $500 many of the fairness arguments would go away.

I also believe it would be smart of FINA (etc.) to attempt to moderate the rate of advancement of suit technology. I still want this sport to be about stroke, power, and fitness - not which swimsuit you wear.

I like the idea of retro-racing. Wouldn't have any appeal for age groupers but would be fun for bragging rights with us older folk.

[jim clemmons]

All I can say Allen is I like my B70 and I'm keeping it.

29 races in it and I'm still dropping time. :bliss:

[aquageek]

...kicking races or other unconventional events would be fun.

I think kicking races would not be fun, torture actually. I would prefer beer relays, where I would stand a fighting chance.

[The Fortress]

All I can say Allen is I like my B70 and I'm keeping it.

29 races in it and I'm still dropping time. :bliss:

Me too!

I was wondering when I read Allen's initial post ... what would most non-swimming spouses/significant others say about the LZR/ultra suit expense?

[Allen Stark]

Me too!

I was wondering when I read Allen's initial post ... what would most non-swimming spouses/significant others say about the LZR/ultra suit expense?

Not much as long as there is quid pro quo

[knelson]

I voted yes, but I'll continue to wear them as long as rules allow.

[tjburk]

I personally like the idea of competition between people...not who has the checkbook to afford the latest highspeed technological breakthrough....IMHO

[SwimStud]

Ban'em and Burn'em!

[Tim L]

I personally don't care for the tech suits, but I don't want to stop others from wearing them. If it helps draw more swimmers to USMS or it keeps existing masters swimmers active in the sport, then the the suits are a good thing. The tech suits also have to be great for vendors which hopefully allows them to support masters swimming.

Tim

[chowmi]

Has anyone seriously thought through or considered buying a swimskin (or even two) and swimming a local meet vs. traveling for a meet ie, banking your $500-$1200 trip cost and spending it on the suit instead? Is that a fair trade off?

[jim clemmons]

Has anyone seriously thought through or considered buying a swimskin (or even two) and swimming a local meet vs. traveling for a meet ie, banking your $500-$1200 trip cost and spending it on the suit instead? Is that a fair trade off?

No, it's not on the table.

[Chris Stevenson]

I voted yes, but I'll continue to wear them as long as rules allow.

Ditto for me.

I just think they are a needless complication and serve no real purpose, possibly other than to convince ourselves we are faster than were really are.

But I'm too much of a competitor to potentially put myself at a disadvantage and I suspect this is a common feeling.

[jim thornton]

I have yet to try one of the fastest suits, i.e., a B70 (which sounds like it has some "closed cell" foam properties, which makes it float a bit, a la a wet suit-lite), but I have swum in Aquablades, FS1s, a FSPro that got stolen after the first day, and most recently a Tyr Aquapel.

The latter is actually really cheap now, on sale for less than $60, and I must say I like it as much as the old Aquablade from yesteryear, which I profoundly wish they still made.

Anyhow, it seems to me that what these suits do, especially for us blubberous hirsute types who have no interest in either shaving or full-body Brazilians, is not so much as take seconds off your times as they take years off your life.

When I first donned that Aquablade 8 years ago, then age 48, I did a time in the 100 freestyle I hadn't swum since my late 30s. The next year, I swam the same time in the 200 that I did in highschool.

In a sport like masters swimming, which gives at least the illusion of increased longevity through physical fitness, these suits are an illusionist's best friend. It is for this reason that this self-deluder LOVES them.

PS I am glad to hear that Jim Clemmons loves his B70. Jim, you can beat me, I am quite sure, if you were wearing oversized bermuda shorts and an LL Bean goose down vest. But knowing you had a superior suit on this SCM season allows me to put an asterisk beside my own swims. Three or four suit generations from now, when I can afford a remaindered B70 at www.lightlyusedspeedsuits.com (http://www.lightlyusedspeedsuits.com), most likely one that has been touched by the previous owner's "boys" and thus dirt cheap for those of us who can stomach such a thing, well, all I can say at this point, Mr. Clemmons, is....

Watch out!

[SwimStud]

Ditto for me.

I just think they are a needless complication and serve no real purpose, possibly other than to convince ourselves we are faster than were really are.

But I'm too much of a competitor to potentially put myself at a disadvantage and I suspect this is a common feeling.

I think you are right.

[jim thornton]

I think you are wrong.

[jim clemmons]

But I'm too much of a competitor to potentially put myself at a disadvantage and I suspect this is a common feeling.

Even if it was like - "I won't if you won't" - and you show up on the blocks and you're not but they are. Bummer.

[jim clemmons]

I have yet to try one of the fastest suits, i.e., a B70 (which sounds like it has some "closed cell" foam properties, which makes it float a bit, a la a wet suit-lite), but I have swum in Aquablades, FS1s, a FSPro that got stolen after the first day, and most recently a Tyr Aquapel.



It doesn't float. Really. I tried the float test - put a couple of small rocks in it and it sank straight to the bottom. Right now. :D

Seriously, it doesn't float.

[SwimStud]

I think you are wrong.

I don't truly care, provided people don't say it's "man" vs the water or "how fast the "human body" can go" because it's really not. It is "man and quasi-buoyancy aid" or "human body encased in repellent suit."
Just like the ludicrous cycling and speedskating helmets.

[The Fortress]

I don't truly care, provided people don't say it's "man" vs the water or "how fast the "human body" can go" because it's really not. It is "man and quasi-buoyancy aid" or "human body encased in repellent suit."
Just like the ludicrous cycling and speedskating helmets.

It's still (wo)man going through the water. Suits don't swim your race for you. And they don't do the training that goes into the racing.

[Allen Stark]

It doesn't float. Really. I tried the float test - put a couple of small rocks in it and it sank straight to the bottom. Right now. :D

Seriously, it doesn't float.

Take it dry and drop it in the water.Also it traps air next to your skin so it makes you more buoyant.It is true if you put it underwater and wring it out,it sinks.

[SwimStud]

It's still (wo)man going through the water. Suits don't swim your race for you. And they don't do the training that goes into the racing.

Hey The Fortress
You're missing my point. Fastest will still be the fastest. So ceteris paribus it is just a waste of $ and efort to delude people into thinking they are faster than they are sans suits.

Now wearing one to hide your hairy back, spare tyre or embarrassing tattoo that's another matter. I know why I wore mine last weekend...b/c I was tired and need every bit of help...it was a crutch.

It's man and technology...not man. Sorry I didn't get the PC lecture at school so for me "Man" includes both sexes when used to refer to the human race. This is what PC does, it infers negative connotations into everyday words that are not really there.

I's totally irrelevant to someone at eh foot of the masters food chain like me anyhow. If I'm racing a gridge though, I expect the other guy to be wearing the same level of tech as me. If that means they leave the body balloon in the bag then so be it.

[The Fortress]

Hey The Fortress
You're missing my point. Fastest will still be the fastest. So ceteris paribus it is just a waste of $ and efort to delude people into thinking they are faster than they are sans suits.

Are you doing a Dolphin 2 imitation here? lol

Nope, don't agree, I still think it's (wo)man vs the water. No one's ever swum naked. Tech suits have always been around. It's still (wo)man trying to go through the water as fast as possible. I frankly don't care if I ever have another official race time without a technical suit. I race tech clad and fast (or at least attempt to), and have no interest in doing otherwise. I don't feel less of a swimmer if my bare legs aren't showing and see no reason whatsoever to race that way. But to each his own, as I've always said. Some like feel; I like speed.

[Paul Smith]

I'm curious if the ski industry had these same debates many years ago when racers were wearing more aerodynamic gear?

How about cyclists...should we get upset when TT racers in the tour have lighter bikes and more aerodynamic helmets?

The suits provide compression, reduce resistance and....I refuse to accept otherwise...a small amount of flotation. All of which we see in many other gravity based sports without all the hoopla.

The bigger issue really comes down to the have's vs. have not's...and this to me is a problem when we start talking about age group swimming, college swimming, etc.

For old, fat masters who have had (until recently) jobs and can usuaully pay and aren't competing to represent the US in next years world championships its just not really that big of deal in my opinion.

[SwimStud]

Paul I see your point but for me, bikes and skis have always been a mesh of man and machine, if you will grant me the skis as being a machine.
As I said before I only really care if it's going to come down to you and me head to head and being basically equal. Outside of that, it is another world to me.

[Iwannafly]

If I'm racing a gridge though, I expect the other guy to be wearing the same level of tech as me. If that means they leave the body balloon in the bag then so be it.

I would rather have part of a new titanium hard-tail mountain bike than a tech suit, so I'll continue to go slow in my brief. Especially in gridges with le Stud!

[alphadog]

I find it a little difficult to justify this kind of expense even though I hope to be competitive at the higher levels. My greater concern is the effect it is undoubtedly having on the sport. In my hometown, the local college has no men's program. The largest local age group team is about 90% female. This hasn't seemed to change much even since Phelps-mania. There are so many other options for boys that I have to believe that this added expense will make swimming a less attractive option for parents and their athletes.

[SwimStud]

I would rather have part of a new titanium hard-tail mountain bike than a tech suit, so I'll continue to go slow in my brief. Especially in gridges with le Stud!

Jokes aside though TJ how would you feel if our narrow, narrow, 200 BR had been decided with me in a FS1...it wouldn't be the same.

[pwbrundage]

...the Aussie model of having 400's of back, breast and fly and an 800IM...why not an old school suit event?

I am all over an 800 IM and am going to do one at some meet next fall.

Of course, Paul, if you're game, I think we need to get you to join me, Utsch and Dickson to take on any team (of 40-somethings) in a 4 x 800 relay! There's a 3K-ish race I could get into.

[chaos]

would those who support a complete separate division for wetsuit wearers in open water also support a complete separate division for old school speedo wearers in pool competition?

thats the question i would like to know the answer to.


(guess how i voted)

[SwimStud]

Of course, Paul, if you're game, I think we need to get you to join me, Utsch and Dickson to take on any team (of 40-somethings) in a 4 x 800 relay! There's a 3K-ish race I could get into.

Do you really think anyone wants to hang around and watch a bunch of old geezers take up the pool for 30 minutes?
;)

Or an hour in my case!
would those who support a complete separate division for wetsuit wearers in open water also support a complete separate division for old school speedo wearers in pool competition?

Yes!

[knelson]

It's still (wo)man going through the water. Suits don't swim your race for you. And they don't do the training that goes into the racing.

Yeah, but remember the good old days when if you won a race you knew it was because you were the fastest swimmer rather than you spent the most on a suit?

[Chris Stevenson]

would those who support a complete separate division for wetsuit wearers in open water also support a complete separate division for old school speedo wearers in pool competition?

thats the question i would like to know the answer to.


(guess how i voted)

Possibly, though there are differences. In OW competition people wear wetsuits also as protection from cold and because they lack confidence in their swimming ability.

IMO the main argument to allow a wetsuit division in national championships (remember that they are already allowed in all other competitions) is to broaden the appeal to triathletes and OW-novices; that argument doesn't apply here since I very much doubt that allowing tech suits increases participation.

But maybe I'm wrong. Does anyone know someone who would stop competing if tech suits were banned? This is all very abstract since I don't think it will happen, but who knows? There definitely seems to be a little backlash...but I suspect that the rules will just be refined to regulate it better, not resulting in an outright ban for all competitors.

[Iwannafly]

Jokes aside though TJ how would you feel if our narrow, narrow, 200 BR had been decided with me in a FS1...it wouldn't be the same.

I can honestly say that it would not have bothered me. I may be in the minority there, but that's how I feel. If I lose to you by a narrow margin, even if you are wearing a technical suit, I will probably chalk it up to not enough training. Now, if I'm training 12+ hours a week and tapering for a championship meet and you beat me by hundredths of a second, then maybe it becomes a bigger deal. Perhaps that's because I have only been swimming for a couple of years and did not have a competitive swimming background.

[The Fortress]

Yeah, but remember the good old days when if you won a race you knew it was because you were the fastest swimmer rather than you spent the most on a suit?

From what I can tell, virtually all my competitors are wearing B70s, so I'd say the playing field -- at least with respect to tech suits -- is even.

[aquageek]

Yeah, but remember the good old days when if you won a race you knew it was because you were the fastest swimmer rather than you spent the most on a suit?

I think we need some perspective. They really aren't that expensive, they are just expensive as compared to other swim gear. They pale in comparison to the gear required of most other sports that adults enjoy. A weekend hacker will not think twice about dropping $500 for a new driver or spending $25 every weekend for a sleeve of balls. It's just something else vying for our entertainment dollars and probably not worth 2% of the angst it is generating.

Fort beat me in the 100 back not because she was wearing a better suit but because she is a better swimmer. If you resort to blaming the gear, you are making a great misstep.

[pwbrundage]

I think we need some perspective. They really aren't that expensive, they are just expensive as compared to other swim gear. They pale in comparison to the gear required of most other sports that adults enjoy. A weekend hacker will not think twice about dropping $500 for a new driver or spending $25 every weekend for a sleeve of balls. It's just something else vying for our entertainment dollars and probably not worth 2% of the angst it is generating.

Absolutely. If I think about my "swim equipment" spend in a year, it generally amounts to


1 or 2 new drag suits for workout (maybe $75)
2 to 3 pairs of goggles (maybe $50)
1 new competition suit ($375 with the B70 purchase)
1 new competition cap ($25 speed cap)

I don't train with a cap, but, even if I did, I've got a drawer full of caps from open water swims that came with the entry fee.


TOTAL ~ $525 for a year

Admittedly, I don't use "toys" in workouts, but those are multi-year investments.

[The Fortress]

would those who support a complete separate division for wetsuit wearers in open water also support a complete separate division for old school speedo wearers in pool competition?

thats the question i would like to know the answer to.


(guess how i voted)

Good question. I wouldn't mind at all. It's not really feasible of course. But, in theory, I would have no problem with tech suit division vs. practice speedo division.

[aquageek]

Good question. I wouldn't mind at all. It's not really feasible of course. But, in theory, I would have no problem with tech suit division vs. practice speedo division.

All the fast swimmers wear tech suits. I would want to swim with the faster swimmers regardless of what I wear.

[Blackbeard's Peg]

All the fast swimmers wear tech suits. I would want to swim with the faster swimmers regardless of what I wear.

In 2007, I had the #2 time in the country in my LCM 800 and #1 in LCM 1500. Wearing a $15 grab bag speedo brief, $2.95 cap and $4.95 sweedes.

[knelson]

From what I can tell, virtually all my competitors are wearing B70s, so I'd say the playing field -- at least with respect to tech suits -- is even.

So the net result is the sport has gotten more expensive for everyone.

One other thing I've noticed. I know people have been wearing tech suits for quite a while now. One thing that has because much more common, I think, is people wearing them for every competition. It used to be you'd go to a smallish local meet and only see a couple people wearing body suits. Now they are commonplace at any meet you go to.

[aquageek]

In 2007, I had the #2 time in the country in my LCM 800 and #1 in LCM 1500. Wearing a $15 grab bag speedo brief, $2.95 cap and $4.95 sweedes.

Braggart. OK, let me rephrase, 99.9% of fast swimmers these days wear the fast suits. I'm sure there are one offs here and there but as a general rule, you see the tech suits in the big meets in the fastest heats.

[Chris Stevenson]

In 2007, I had the #2 time in the country in my LCM 800 and #1 in LCM 1500. Wearing a $15 grab bag speedo brief, $2.95 cap and $4.95 sweedes.

So what was with the legskins at zones? I've got pictures, remember! You are going down that slippery slope.

You know, if you actually SHAVED, you might drop some serious time...

Interesting: the poll is running 29-19 (against a ban), which is closer than I thought for this crowd.

[chaos]

[QUOTE=Chris Stevenson;163197] Does anyone know someone who would stop competing if tech suits were banned? This is all very abstract since I don't think it will happen, but who knows? QUOTE]

i did have a conversation recently with a very successful world class swimmer who did say that the new tech suits available have made it exciting for him to race again. implying that...yes they erase big chunks (a reletive term) of time from a swim; also that he has adjusted technique instruction to accomodate wetsuit wearers.... probably not long until this also applies to tech suit wearers.

[meldyck]

So the net result is the sport has gotten more expensive for everyone.

One other thing I've noticed. I know people have been wearing tech suits for quite a while now. One thing that has become much more common, I think, is people wearing them for every competition. It used to be you'd go to a smallish local meet and only see a couple people wearing body suits. Now they are commonplace at any meet you go to.

This is interesting because I found a few years ago that, with the body suits, I had a good chance of making a Top Ten time in events that I swam in but without I was out of the running. So, as a result, I wear them for all competitions no matter the venue since the TT is my main motivation at the moment. When the suits first became accessible to me, I would only wear them for the biggest meets.

BTW, I edited a couple of typos in your post, quoted above...

[Redbird Alum]

The whole tech suit thing is a done deal... records and all... let's move on to cooler caps, webbing (gloves), fins and props!

Seriously, this discussion is old. They're here to stay, like em or not.

[The Fortress]

One other thing I've noticed. I know people have been wearing tech suits for quite a while now. One thing that has because much more common, I think, is people wearing them for every competition. It used to be you'd go to a smallish local meet and only see a couple people wearing bidy suits. Now they are commonplace at any meet you go to.

Who cares what people do? Is it a bad thing to wear your tech suit every meet? And, if so, why? Right now, I plan on wearing my B70 for all competitions. I don't swim in many meets per course, and I'd like my times to be meaningful. (Of course, that assumes they even count.)

[Dolphin 2]

There should have been a 5Th choice: Allow tech suits if -and only if the use of paddles on the hands and flippers on the feet are allowed too.

This idea makes technical sense because if FINA allows the use of any "personal equipment" (anything that can be applied to the swimmer's body) to purportedly reduce drag, they should also allow anything that increases propulsion efficiency.

In fact, if FINA wants to take the concept of mechanically aided swimming to its logical extreme, then just allow anything else that makes it easier to swim faster such as artificial gills to assist with breathing. :2cents:

Dolphin 2

[knelson]

Is it a bad thing to wear your tech suit every meet?

Not really. Just making an observation. I think it does prove that people are, more or less, relying on the performance improvements given by the suits.

[The Fortress]

I think it does prove that people are, more or less, relying on the performance improvements given by the suits.

And is that a bad thing?

Doesn't it just mean people might care about their times? Or perhaps small meets are the only places they get to swim or they can't do many meets ... Not everyone tapers for the big meet. Not everyone goes to Nationals.

[knelson]

This idea makes technical sense because if FINA allows the use of any "personal equipment" (anything that can be applied to the swimmer's body) to purportedly reduce drag, they should also allow anything that increases propulsion efficiency.

This really makes no sense. Since skiing and cycling have already been brought up, that would be like saying FIS should allow skiers to wear jet packs and whatever the cycling federation is should allow motorized bikes. There's a difference between reducing weight of equipment, reducing rolling and aerodynamic friction, etc. and increasing propulsion.

[ourswimmer]

I think some of you are overdramatizing both how prevalent the latest, most expensive tech suits are and how much they affect performance. I was also at the SPMA meet, and although I saw a lot of B70s and Xterras and a few LZRs, I also saw a lot of FS1s, FSIIs, Aquablades, and TYR Aquapels. Also, on some of the fastest of the younger women, I saw tiny tank suits rather than full-body suits.

I've never been in a race where I even suspected that a better suit accounted for someone's having beaten me. In Long Beach, for instance, I took second in my age group in the 400 and 800 frees, but I really don't think the winner's B70 to my TYR Aquapel explains why she beat me by 12 seconds in the 400 and 30 in the 800. And judging from the results, although I would have swum slower in a practice suit, I would still have beaten the third-place finishers in our age group (and the third-place finisher in my age group in the 800 was definitely wearing a B70).

[imspoiled]

Not really. Just making an observation. I think it does prove that people are, more or less, relying on the performance improvements given by the suits.


Or, that we've spent our swimming budget on the pricier suit and have little left for new racing suits.

Since I started buying tech suits, I stopped buying lycra suits to race in. It was a matter of having a truely ridiculous number of suits in the house--practice suits (bigger sizes, worn out, whatever material will last longest), meet suits (tighter fit, lycra tank suit), and tech suits. Now, there's just practice suits and tech suits. Older tech suits get worn to local meets where I used to wear a new(er) tank racing suit.

[knelson]

I think we need some perspective. They really aren't that expensive

I'd say they are very expensive for something with such a limited life. Sure people will spend $500 on a driver or $5,000 on a bike, but those things should last a lot longer than a $550 LZR suit.

I've never been in a race where I even suspected that a better suit accounted for someone's having beaten me. In Long Beach, for instance, I took second in my age group in the 400 and 800 frees, but I really don't think the winner's B70 to my TYR Aquapel explains why she beat me by 12 seconds in the 400 and 30 in the 800

Yes, but what if that same swimmer had beaten you by only a second?

[aquageek]

I'd say they are very expensive for something with such a limited life. Sure people will spend $500 on a driver or $5,000 on a bike, but those things should last a lot longer than a $550 LZR suit.

Do you know any golfers or bikers? Most would jump for joy at the prospect of spending $500 only. I don't think $500 is a figure that's even known to them. How about boating, water or snow skiing? $500 is peanuts. It just looks bad because in the past we could totally outfit ourselves for $40.

My brother owns horses. I told him people were up in arms about a $500 swimsuit. He agreed that was expensive and then proceeded to tell me about the cost of a new saddle, great day in the morning! I felt better after that about the cost of swimming.

[Blackbeard's Peg]

So what was with the legskins at zones? I've got pictures, remember! You are going down that slippery slope.

You know, if you actually SHAVED, you might drop some serious time...

Well, yes, I've been known to wear a set of legs every now and again... but given the price and technology of a fastskin/fs pro vs lzr & b70, can you really call the fastskins (and pro) a "tech suit" anymore? Legs are a far cry from the full body suits too.

I've proved as recently as this summer that you can swim fast and drop time unshaved and in a speedo - see my results from the IGLA meet: 5 swims, 5 PBs. Could I have done better by putting my legs on? Maybe. But nothing can substitute determination and sheer hard work. I was pleased with my times from that meet and aside from the 400, didn't come close to my times last weekend while wearing the Pro - and just as rested.

For the record, I do not like the Pro - I prefer the FSII (black with red stripes). I dont think the fabric provides the same compression as the FSII, nor am I convinced it is any more friction-friendly than a FSII. I don't like the fit (I get an air bubble every event except backstroke) either. But I have worn for some fast swims. I think if it as my "rest" suit - and have used it at meets where I've rested a bit, but not shaved or tapered, and for events high on my priority list.

[knelson]

Again, Geek, I think the difference is these are items that last. I don't know with certainty, but I suspect a good saddle doesn't need to be replaced after just a few uses. Yes, snow skis wear out, too, but not like these tech suits and skis aren't that much more expensive than LZRs.

Of course, the way things have gone lately, you hardly have time to wear out your suit before the next iteration comes along.

[Blackbeard's Peg]

It just looks bad because in the past we could totally outfit ourselves for $40.

Agreed. This was a point I was trying to make in the USA Swimming banning Tech suits for the kids, with my hockey vs. swimming post

[Chris Stevenson]

Well, yes, I've been known to wear a set of legs every now and again... but given the price and technology of a fastskin/fs pro vs lzr & b70, can you really call the fastskins (and pro) a "tech suit" anymore? Legs are a far cry from the full body suits too.

I've proved as recently as this summer that you can swim fast and drop time unshaved and in a speedo - see my results from the IGLA meet: 5 swims, 5 PBs. Could I have done better by putting my legs on? Maybe. But nothing can substitute determination and sheer hard work. I was pleased with my times from that meet and aside from the 400, didn't come close to my times last weekend while wearing the Pro - and just as rested.

For the record, I do not like the Pro - I prefer the FSII (black with red stripes). I dont think the fabric provides the same compression as the FSII, nor am I convinced it is any more friction-friendly than a FSII. I don't like the fit (I get an air bubble every event except backstroke) either. But I have worn for some fast swims. I think if it as my "rest" suit - and have used it at meets where I've rested a bit, but not shaved or tapered, and for events high on my priority list.

Oh, I was just giving you grief. Of course you can swim fast without the gear. I swam at zones last year in briefs and also did a couple PBs, one of which was a national record (which has since been demolished by Mr. Ross).

I've never used the Pro. At one point in the summer the U of R coach liked it as much as the LZR though he may have changed his tune by now. For me, the FSII is no better than shaved skin.

As far as the discussion about wearing tech suits in unrested meets, I can see two reasons:

-- getting used to the suits. I'm simply not going to wear them in practice but I can see getting some race experience in them. Especially if you have a new suit, probably better to give it a trial run before using it "for real."

-- swimming fast when unrested. I think the suit can give your times a little oomph when you are tired from training. I'll probably do this at VA Sr Champs in the spring b/c if I don't, I doubt I'll even make it back at night. I'll probably do it at zones too since I'll probably swim some events there that I won't swim at nationals.

[ourswimmer]

Yes, but what if that same swimmer had beaten you by only a second?

Then I would be one of the very best swimmers in the world, having swum a time in the FINA top ten ever for my age/sex group. And if I were such a swimmer, I would probably consider spending a few hundred $ to have the very best suit.

At my level, though, if someone beats me by one second while wearing a supposedly speedier suit, I am not going to worry about it much. For me, a bargain-basement older-generation race suit is just fine for making me feel like my race is special without stressing my wallet.

[aquageek]

Again, Geek, I think the difference is these are items that last.

I'll grant you the longevity argument but most avid sports participants want the latest and greatest fairly frequently. I have many friends who buy new very expensive bikes every few years. Golfer are notoriously gear oriented. A sweet golf bag costs hundreds and is shot the first time you get caught in a big storm or spill your beer all over it.

I still contend that from a gear perspective, swimming is near the bottom and will never approach other sports in terms of expense.

[jim clemmons]

Who cares what people do? Is it a bad thing to wear your tech suit every meet? And, if so, why? Right now, I plan on wearing my B70 for all competitions. I don't swim in many meets per course, and I'd like my times to be meaningful. (Of course, that assumes they even count.)

As some of us get into the "older" groups :cane:, not knowing when your very last swim will take place comes into play. If that should occur while racing, I want to make sure I was going fast. :bump:

[elise526]

Swimming, particularly for boys, is just not as popular as other sports. This is all the more reason to keep it as inexpensive as possible. Also, college swimming programs having to increase their budget to purchase these suits is not a good thing when there is already a battle to save men's programs.

I say ban the suits everywhere except for masters where we grown-ups just want to have a few toys of our own.

[ehoch]

about wearing tech suits in unrested meets

I really believe that besides the obvious difference the suits have made, there is a secondary performance boost -- people can go very fast in season.

Old-school thinking was that you can simply not swim fast times unless you are shaved and tapered. This philosophy was almost a self-fullfilling phrophecy. We used to keep rankings for shaved and unshaved. The suits have changed that -- you can "shave" or put on a suit at any time. You can see the difference in some of college in season meets - people go amazing in season times. Different way of thinking -- swimming fast at any time -- all you want is more ...

[Chris Stevenson]

I really believe that besides the obvious difference the suits have made, there is a secondary performance boost -- people can go very fast in season.

Old-school thinking was that you can simply not swim fast times unless you are shaved and tapered. This philosophy was almost a self-fullfilling phrophecy. We used to keep rankings for shaved and unshaved. The suits have changed that -- you can "shave" or put on a suit at any time. You can see the difference in some of college in season meets - people go amazing in season times. Different way of thinking -- swimming fast at any time -- all you want is more ...

I think this is a significantly bigger difference than the "top end" performance gains. The disadvantage is that maybe you don't tend to drop as much time at the end-of-the season meets. But I haven't had enough seasons to check this.

[Dolphin 2]

This really makes no sense. Since skiing and cycling have already been brought up, that would be like saying FIS should allow skiers to wear jet packs and whatever the cycling federation is should allow motorized bikes. There's a difference between reducing weight of equipment, reducing rolling and aerodynamic friction, etc. and increasing propulsion.

Knelson
The two examples you cite (jet packs and motorized bikes) involve an external source of power -not just more efficient utilization of the individual athlete's own biological energy.

In addition to reducing drag, using paddles and flippers would also enable a swimmer to convert more of his/her muscle effort into more efficient propulsion -which is in fact the most effective way to increase swimming speed. So why not allow them too?

As I've said in my other posts, if FINA allows the use of so called drag reducing suits, why don't they just adopt a "Lazie Faire" approach and fling the door open to any other kind of "personally applied component" that can improve a swimmer's efficiency also?

Dolphin 2

[jim thornton]

At the very least, we swimming-challenged types should be allowed to take latex molds of Michael Phelps' feet and have these turned into "feet fins" we can wear in meets to equalize the cruelties of DNA inheritance.

Ditto for Ian Thorpe latex "hand paddles" and, eventually one can only pray, John Dillinger latex "Fifth Extremity" equalization technology.

[jim clemmons]

I have yet to try one of the fastest suits, i.e., a B70 (which sounds like it has some "closed cell" foam properties, which makes it float a bit, a la a wet suit-lite), but I have swum in Aquablades, FS1s, a FSPro that got stolen after the first day, and most recently a Tyr Aquapel.

The latter is actually really cheap now, on sale for less than $60, and I must say I like it as much as the old Aquablade from yesteryear, which I profoundly wish they still made.


Gotta tell you I was proud of you stepping up like that for that 400IM knowing that you tend to stick with the shorter stuff. Be careful or you may start preferring it.

Here's to ya :chug:

[SwimStud]

My brother owns horses.


Down south, is this a euphemism for marriage? Anyway best keep Jim Thornton away...

[jim thornton]

Thanks, Jim!

On the entry form for the CZ meet, they said you could put down your yards time and they would convert it to meters for you. So I put a somewhat optimistic 400 yards time for the IM. They didn't convert it.

The same thing happened with the 100 IM.

I could have used latex Phelps-feet (TM) fins for both events!

I was able to switch the heat for the 400 from the fastest (where I would have delayed the timeline) to the slowest (where I raced a fellow who finished around the 17 minute mark.)

I opted not to switch for the 100 because I figured an 8 second delay wouldn't throw the whole meet off too badly!

Thanks for the encouragement, Jim. You did some absolutely blistering times this year. Do you think the B70 helped?

[jim clemmons]

Thanks for the encouragement, Jim. You did some absolutely blistering times this year. Do you think the B70 helped?

You mean besides the training six days a week, a million plus yards, getting up unreasonably early, swimming in the cold and dark mornings, dropping about eight pounds, watching my diet, trying to get enuf rest, sprinting in meets more to get speed work in :blah: ?

Absolutely...the B70 helped at least a little bit.:bliss:

[jim thornton]

Jim, it sounds like you didn't build in any time for Creepy Old Man activities here. Heather will be disappointed.

In terms of the 8 lb. wt loss, do you think THAT made a significant difference? The reason I ask is that one of my friends here in Pittsburgh, Glen Battle--he's had No. 1 times twice in the 200 back, SCM--told me he's experimented with this and found he swims pretty much the same times regardless of whether he's a added or lost pounds. He's convinced that it doesn't make much difference.

The yards, however, I am sure make a big difference. I saw you in the well over 500 mile level in Go the Distance.

Do you know what has happened to Jim McConica and Paul Trevisan? It seems that JM hasn't raced since the 25k, and Paul has been missing since last spring. You and Phil Dodson have leapt with ferocity into the evacuated power vacuum of our age group.

[The Fortress]

You mean besides the training six days a week, a million plus yards, getting up unreasonably early, swimming in the cold and dark mornings, dropping about eight pounds, watching my diet, trying to get enuf rest, sprinting in meets more to get speed work in :blah:

Yeah, it's not like this stuff comes about out of thin air!

[jim clemmons]

In terms of the 8 lb. wt loss, do you think THAT made a significant difference? The reason I ask is that one of my friends here in Pittsburgh, Glen Battle--he's had No. 1 times twice in the 200 back, SCM--told me he's experimented with this and found he swims pretty much the same times regardless of whether he's a added or lost pounds. He's convinced that it doesn't make much difference.



Fat floats, fortunately. I agree that it doesn't make much difference but maybe enough? It's only about 4% of my bodyweight - I went from ~202 to ~194. Certainly my drops in time didn't equate to 4%, actually less than1% under previous PB. But I think I feel better overall after losing the few lbs for whatever reason. Maybe just psychological.

[jim clemmons]

Do you know what has happened to Jim McConica and Paul Trevisan? It seems that JM hasn't raced since the 25k, and Paul has been missing since last spring. You and Phil Dodson have leapt with ferocity into the evacuated power vacuum of our age group.

I don't know about Paul but I saw Jim this weekend in LB. Said he was a little "out of shape". He swam leadoff on the VCM Men's 800 Free Relay, went 2:09 :confused: somethinerother but that's just like him. He looked good and about this point in the AG he tends to backoff a bit.

Phil and I had a great run at the 200 free - me, him, me, him. He eventually won 2:06.x to 2:07.x, but I got a PB out of it. Thanks Phil.

[Robert Strand]

I think Jim Clemmons is swimming such a variety of events and doing so well. We run into each other one year per age-group and believe me he is the real deal. I think he is getting better and learning more about what works for him each year. One hell of a swimmer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jim clemmons]

I think Jim Clemmons is swimming such a variety of events and doing so well. We run into each other one year per age-group and believe me he is the real deal. I think he is getting better and learning more about what works for him each year. One hell of a swimmer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ahh, gee. :blush: Thanks Bob.

[knelson]

I was talking to my coach tonight about the B70 and the LZR and he said he thinks these suits will actually help the average swimmer more than the elites (and I'm talking average like most of us here, as opposed to someone like Phelps). He thinks these suits force you to keep the core tight, and that's something most of us don't normally do.

[mbmg3282]

I wonder if the new, higher priced suits will have an effect on attendance at nationals. Those of us that routinely go (many of the posters in this thread) won't be affected. However, those that rarely go - usually when it is geographically close - may feel they can't compete unless they buy a $500 suit. This year LC Nationals is close to my LMSC. Typically, a big year for Kentucky is when 10 or more people go. With the meet in Indy, I would expect something closer to 50 - 75 going. However, I have heard a number of people feel like they won't be competitive unless they spend a lot of money on a suit. Some may opt not to go as a result.

[ande]

Should tech suits be banned?

Refer to the USMS rule book (http://www.usms.org/rules/part1.pdf) which mirrors the USS & FINA rules

in Section 102.15 DISQUALIFICATIONS

on the bottom of page 14 there's rule

102.15.9 Swimmers are not permitted to wear or use any device or substance to help their speed, pace or buoyancy during a race. Goggles may be worn and rubdown oil applied if not considered excessive by the referee.

You can be pretty sure there will be some additional language added to that section or a new section about the latest generation of tech suits.

What will be considered a "device" and what won't be.

Once the rules are written. There will be specific violations for meet officials to look for.
It's likely to begin with obvious violations and abuses.

The NCAA is on this too, there's rumblings of what will and won't be allowed.

The cat's out of the bag
The genie's out of the bottle
Good luck getting them back in.

[The Fortress]

A good and very obvious start is to limit swimmers to one suit by specifying in the rule that "swimsuit" -- duh -- means one suit.

[thewookiee]

In 2000, FINA stated that the bodysuits(fastskins, aquablades, adidas suits) were not devices. That essential started the ball rolling.

I don't want the suits banned or even restricted so that they can't cover shoulder to ankles but there probably does need to be some guidelines set in place about the fabric used in them.

[Redbird Alum]

The cat's out of the bag
The genie's out of the bottle
Good luck getting them back in.

Amen to that!

[Blackbeard's Peg]

A good and very obvious start is to limit swimmers to one suit by specifying in the rule that "swimsuit" -- duh -- means one suit.

What about the people that wear a 2nd drag suit for rinky-dink meets?
What about folks who wear a suit under their jammers/legs/kneeskins/full body suits not only for extra support (both genders have body parts that tend to flop around :bouncing:), but also for ease of change and for lack of scaring locker room friends with "the porn areas?" Not everyone is comfortable sitting in a crowded locker room buck nekked trying to get a suit on with the goods hanging out for all to see - or walking into said situation.

[The Fortress]

What about the people that wear a 2nd drag suit for rinky-dink meets?
What about folks who wear a suit under their jammers/legs/kneeskins/full body suits not only for extra support (both genders have body parts that tend to flop around :bouncing:), but also for ease of change and for lack of scaring locker room friends with "the porn areas?" Not everyone is comfortable sitting in a crowded locker room buck nekked trying to get a suit on with the goods hanging out for all to see - or walking into said situation.

lol. Hadn't thought of the porn problem. :afraid: And we know how Stud feels about that ...

Can a swimmer be limited to one technical suit then? Or is that unworkable?

[BillS]

Regarding the legality of double bagging, here's a post from a while ago:


I am trying to figure if 2 bodysuits are legal.Any of you rules gurus have an opinion?




That's what I was thinking and posted earlier. Maybe Anna Lea will help us out as usual. I'd like to see the actual wording of the rule. There may be a loophole, but depending upon the wording, FINA could still interpret it to preclude wearing two suits or suits with 2-3 neoprene like layers. Also, as I recall there is a prohibition on ""buoyancy." I realize they've decided that the LZR and B70 suits don't violate this rule, but stacking them might. Isn't that why actual wetsuits aren't legal, they're patently, beyond any doubt, buoyant?


There are a couple of rules potentially in play here. Fina's General Rules speak to the swimsuit issue:



GR 5 SWIMWEAR

GR 5.1 The swimwear (swimsuit, cap and goggles) of all competitors shall be in good moral taste and suitable for the individual sports disciplines and not to carry any symbol which may be considered offensive.

GR 5.2 All swimsuits shall be non transparent.

GR 5.3 In swimming competitions the competitor must wear swimsuit in one or two pieces which shall not extend beyond the ankles, the wrists and the neck. No additional items, like arm bands or leg bands shall be regarded as parts of a swimsuit.

GR 5.4 The referee of a competition has the authority to exclude any competitor whose swimwear or body symbols do not comply with this Rule.

GR 5.5 Before any swimwear of new design, construction or material is used in competition, the manufacturer of such swimwear must submit the swimwear to FINA and obtain approval of FINA.


FINA Requirements for swimwear approval



GR 5.6 The manufacturers must ensure that the approved new swimwear will be available for all competitors.

And the Swimming Rules cover "devices":




SW 10.7 No swimmer shall be permitted to use or wear any device that may aid his speed, buoyancy or endurance during a competition (such as webbed gloves, flippers, fins, etc.). Goggles may be worn.


A cute response would be to argue that a swimmer wearing 2 suits is simply wearing a two piece suit within the meaning of GR 5.3. Perhaps the swimmer could argue that after seeing the now infamous shots of Phelps and Beard in the new LZRs, she or he was concerned about violating the transparency ban in 5.2, and hence felt a need to double up in an abundance of caution.

Seriously, GR 5 does not appear to prohibit a swimmer from wearing 2 suits (although note the curious matter of the missing "a" in the sentence "the swimmer must wear swimsuit". Perhaps something was lost in a translation?)

The only ground for protest would be to argue that the second suit constitutes a "device which may aid his speed, buoyancy, or endurance..." Given that Fina ruled that wearing one tech suit does none of those things, it would seem anomolous for Fina to find that wearing two somehow does.

[Allen Stark]

OK,does the LZR go over the B-70 or under?What is the upper limit,are5 better than 6?Is it better if they are all the same suit,or would a LZR and a TYR and a B-70 be better.Inquiring minds want to to know.

[BillS]

OK,does the LZR go over the B-70 or under?What is the upper limit,are5 better than 6?Is it better if they are all the same suit,or would a LZR and a TYR and a B-70 be better.Inquiring minds want to to know.

Seeing as how my B70 now sports a hole in the nether regions, I'd run the B70 under the LZR . . . at least until the LZR's zipper blows out . . . then maybe triple bag 'em under the Tracer Rise . . . maybe with an old Nike tech suit in the mix somewhere to boot (nostalgic, if nothing else).

Good swimming at SPMA, Allen.

[pwbrundage]

I wonder if the new, higher priced suits will have an effect on attendance at nationals. Those of us that routinely go (many of the posters in this thread) won't be affected. However, those that rarely go - usually when it is geographically close - may feel they can't compete unless they buy a $500 suit. This year LC Nationals is close to my LMSC. Typically, a big year for Kentucky is when 10 or more people go. With the meet in Indy, I would expect something closer to 50 - 75 going. However, I have heard a number of people feel like they won't be competitive unless they spend a lot of money on a suit. Some may opt not to go as a result.

I can't imagine this. I am now officially fan of tech suits and have raced in a B70 in two meets. However, there are soooooo many more factors driving performance that have a far greater impact on performance than the suit. Do I think these suits add an edge? Absolutely. Do I think they are more important than technique, talent, training, mental preparation and facility? Not by a long stretch.

[The Fortress]

Seeing as how my B70 now sports a hole in the nether regions, I'd run the B70 under the LZR . . . at least until the LZR's zipper blows out . . . then maybe triple bag 'em under the Tracer Rise . . . maybe with an old Nike tech suit in the mix somewhere to boot (nostalgic, if nothing else).


Hmmm ... yet another rationalization for double suiting. Swimmers need to extend the life of the weak seamed B70s. Upon seam bustage, just insert X suit under and carry on. I would think the Pro or LZR would go under for compression.

The men and boys have apparently been double suiting forever. (Confirmed the boy part with Mini-Fort). Maybe it's time for the chicks to catch up and benefit from added compression.

[ande]

the person I spoke with said an additional non tech suit for modesty reasons might be permitted

people should sit on towels on the bench when putting on their tech suits

some have been scarred for life from being an involuntary witness to certain folks struggling to put on their tech suits

What about the people that wear a 2nd drag suit for rinky-dink meets?
What about folks who wear a suit under their jammers/legs/kneeskins/full body suits not only for extra support (both genders have body parts that tend to flop around :bouncing:), but also for ease of change and for lack of scaring locker room friends with "the porn areas?" Not everyone is comfortable sitting in a crowded locker room buck nekked trying to get a suit on with the goods hanging out for all to see - or walking into said situation.

[ande]

I wrote about Stacking Suits back in Aug 2008:
http://www.usms.org/forums/showpost.php?p=147024&postcount=216

I read an article or blog that years ago in the Olympics Ian Thorpe wore 2 suits to get in his suit that covered his arms

here's a few photos of pelligrini from the 2008 games in Beijing after her 200 Free

http://www.ilgiornale.it/att_jpg.php?ID=384956&X=800&Y=800

http://english.cri.cn/mmsource/images/2008/08/13/4093pellegrini.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/09lg1S04bUduZ/610x.jpg

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/82280152.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF19368FFB0B613D6DEB0BF8161ABD72F847B 5A5397277B4DC33E

[BillS]

The latest screed from Craig Lord:

The bodysuits debate is raging here in Rijeka, the warning signs dripping like poison. Arena is the sponsor here. Where is professional respect and trust that existed between these makers? Down in the warm-down pool, the man from the Blueseventy factory in Germany (home of adidas), is handing out bag loads of suits for free. Does that company sponsor a single federation? Does that suit maker invest huge amounts in the infrastructure of the sport? Does that suit maker understand that contracts and faith and trust are being shredded in a sport on the verge of saying to the manufacturers of wetsuits and bodyboards: go away, darken our door no more?

The German media sit next to me on the press bench, a stream of German team staff flow by. The talk is all about the difference in performances a week ago at German nationals and now here in Rijeka. The difference stretches to what the swimmers are wearing. Last week, under club control, they wore what they liked. This week, they wear adidas, a company now considering its investment in the pool. Senior German swimmers are now saying to the DSV: I am not wearing your team suit in Rome 2009 if the man or woman in the next lane is sporting an aquatic bullet. So, generations of children who would surely have pestered their parents to go out and buy Britta Steffen's double golden suit this Christmas will be asking for something quite different next year (they probably already are). The damage being done to the image of one of the biggest players in the global sportswear market as a direct consequence of FINA's stand on suits is now leaking into the German media. That process will gather momentum. If I were at the helm in adidas, I would be picking the phone up to FINA and telling them: sort this out, act fast or we are gone.

This morning, I saw several examples of swimmers wearing two suits and there were three swimmers spotted wearing three suits. Ludicrous. The referee is powerless to act. The rule book has been left wanting. And how. The only way out of this mess is to go down the lines proposed by the USA: cut back the fabric and control the fabric in a way that bars access to the sport of a what we will soon legitimately be able to call a doping suit.

[Allen Stark]

The latest screed from Craig Lord:
Whatever I think about tech suits,this guy seems like a pompous:censor::censor:Just because B-70 isn't kissing up to the federations,and Arena has been caught with there pants down,he thinks they should be banned,but Speedo(who seems to have "cheated"with FINAs blessing) is given a free ride.What a hypocrite.

[Chris Stevenson]

NCAA decides to ban double tech-suits. Including briefs worn underneath the tech suit (the latter decision is ridiculous IMO).

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19828.asp?q=NCAA%20Releases%20Memo%20Regarding%20S peedsuit%20Conference%20Call

[knelson]

Whatever I think about tech suits,this guy seems like a pompous:censor::censor:

Gotta agree with you on that. Blue Seventy is just trying to sell swimsuits like everybody else and it seems like they've come up with a very desirable design. Somehow this makes them evil?

[That Guy]

NCAA decides to ban double tech-suits. Including briefs worn underneath the tech suit (the latter decision is ridiculous IMO).

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19828.asp?q=NCAA%20Releases%20Memo%20Regarding%20S peedsuit%20Conference%20Call

"Scenario 3:
Swimmer A, who has already qualified with an A-Standard time for the 200 freestyle, gets up on the block to swim that event wearing a lycra bathing suit with an old, torn, nylon tank suit over it.
Ruling: Unless the swimmer removes the outer "drag" suit prior to the event, and swims with only one suit, their performance would be disqualified in that event."

:rofl:

[gull]

If I were at the helm in Adidas, I would be picking the phone up to FINA and telling them: sort this out, act fast or we are gone.

To which FINA should reply, "Why don't you just make a better suit?"

[SwimStud]

lol. Hadn't thought of the porn problem. :afraid: And we know how Stud feels about that ...


What do I feel about it. If any female needs my help getting into a B70 I will gladly suffer the visual affront of the locker room. :D

I don't get the "can't get the cat back in the bag" stuff, sure you can. You just make it the rules, and ignre the crying.

Remember too, that it won't make a difference because "it isn't the suits, it's the person wearing them! Right? So the "suit" records will fall in time...

If the cat won't go back in the bag...club it on the head, throw it in a burlap sack, and drop it off a bridge...job done!

Solutions may not always be pleasant or make everyone happy, but there are there if you look for them...:2cents:

[ande]

The Morning Swim Show:
Discussion on the Future of Swimsuit Technology (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19856.asp?q=<i>The%20Morning%20Swim%20Show</i>:%20Discussion%20on%20the%20Future%20of%20Swimsuit %20Technology;%20USA%20Swimming%20Proposal);
USA Swimming Proposal -- December 17, 2008

[charged]

The Morning Swim Show:
Discussion on the Future of Swimsuit Technology (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19856.asp?q=<i>The%20Morning%20Swim%20Show</i>:%20Discussion%20on%20the%20Future%20of%20Swimsuit %20Technology;%20USA%20Swimming%20Proposal);
USA Swimming Proposal -- December 17, 2008

"... so by limiting the coverage of the the body we limit the damages that can be done with engineering and biometics etcetera. That plus the idea of one suit alone." John Leonard

"Nothing was wrong with swimming before, it was fine, it's worse now because something was introduced that shouldn't have been introduced." Craig Lord

I agree 100%. Limit the coverage to limit the advantage of the suit, and make all the suits available to the public 12 mo before a meet.

[ande]

Here's where I stand on the tech suit issue:


1) Disqualify swimmers who wear 2 or more suits
Specify in the offical swimming rules that wearing more than one suit in a race results in disqualification. Enforce it at meets. Unfortunately this will probably mean no training suit under a tech suit, though I don't have a problem with swimmers wearing a brief. It might be reasonable to allow this for modesty reasons as well.

In super elite meets when swimmers place high or break records, two officials should follow the swimmer to the locker room where the swimmer strips and submits their suit for inspection and approval. (Drug testing officials show up unannounced and are required to observe athletes produce a specimen for drug testing, suit testing seems reasonable)


2) Require Suit limitations in summer league meets, age group meets (12 or 14 and under) and high school meets
Let's keep swimming affordable for parents and level the playing field for young swimmers or we might lose generations of future swimmers to more affordable sports.
Draw the line somewhere reasonable: maybe jammers for boys and traditional suits for girls.
The idea is to keep expensive suits out of age group and high school swimming. Make age group swimming about the swimmer not which suit daddy can afford.
These are tough economic times, parents shouldn't have to shell out $300, $400 and $500 for fragile suits for growing children.


3) allow tech suits for elite swimmers and masters swimmers
allow tech suits when swimmers reach a certain level of excellence.
sectionals, junior nationals, nationals & NCAA
Require that suits must be on the market for anyone to buy months before competitions, disallow custom made suits
allow elite and masters swimmers to wear the following kinds of suits
+ shoulder to ankle,
+ shoulder to knee,
+ leg skins,
+ jammers, and
+ traditional suits
disallow suits that cover arms
allow blue seventy Nero Comps, Speedo LZRs, Tyr Tracer Rise, and similar suits made by other providers

4) Beef up FINAs suit testing and approval process

[pwbrundage]

Here's where I stand on the tech suit issue:
1) Disqualify swimmers who wear 2 or more suits
2) Suit limitations in summer league meets, age group meets (12 or 14 and under) and high school meets
3) allow tech suits for elite swimmers and masters swimmers
4) beef up FINAs suit testing and approval process

I can get behind this.

Now, the big question is, how do we get sanity across the swimming federations globally? Is there a way to get Ande drafted and placed as FINA president?

[TomP]

Hi,

I wish they would allow for the wearing of a training suit under a tech suit. It is pretty easy to distinguish between the two types and it would greatly ease the crush in the change area, as well as shield eyes from "the horror", not to mention a last minute suit malfunction.

So Allow Jammers or a Girls Training Suit.
Tom

[ande]

I also want to add that if swimmers are permitted to wear full body suits in international competitions like world championships and the olympics, it would be a very bad policy for USA swimming to hold trials for these meets and limit suits the swimmers can wear. Teams need to be selected with swimmers wearing the same suits they'll wear in the big competition.

[AlanM]

I can't understand how we have managed to get into a situation where the only true net result is that we all end up slightly worse off financially. For the suits to be legal, they have to be available to all. If they are available to and worn by everyone, there is no competitive advantage to be gained by wearing one. If we wear the suits to improve our times but gain no competitive advantage then we are merely deluding ourselves.

[chaos]

to the 45 who have voted "best thing since sliced bread" i have two words for you:
FOCCACIA
CIABATTA

'nuff said

[Glider]

For those who voted "YES, they are an abomination, burn them all" or "Yes, there is too much potential unfairness", I say AGING, like life in general, is not fair.:D

B70...the GREAT AGING EQUALIZER:bliss:

to the 45 who have voted "best thing since sliced bread" i have two words for you:
FOCCACIA
CIABATTA

'nuff said

[Chris Stevenson]

I can't understand how we have managed to get into a situation where the only true net result is that we all end up slightly worse off financially.

Google "prisoner's dilemma."

[Dolphin 2]

"... so by limiting the coverage of the the body we limit the damages that can be done with engineering and biometics etcetera. That plus the idea of one suit alone." John Leonard

"Nothing was wrong with swimming before, it was fine, it's worse now because something was introduced that shouldn't have been introduced." Craig Lord

I agree 100%. Limit the coverage to limit the advantage of the suit, and make all the suits available to the public 12 mo before a meet.

Hi Charged
I agree with Craig Lord. :applaud:

In the past, FINA’s position was to minimize the effect of the suit and they required that the suit have as little coverage as possible.

However with the introduction of tech suits, there are way too many variables to deal with and any attempt to make rules about them will just result in bickering and nit picking.

Suit technology (along with all sorts of performance enhancing drugs) is considered a "Cheat Sheet" appraoch and they have severely obscured what can be considered as a true achievement in the athletic world.

The suit makers won’t go along with this, but the most obvious and simplist solution is just to go back to the Mark Spitz days in the 1970s when plain old $20 briefs were the standard uniform and the only variables were the individual athlete’s body characteristics.

Dolphin 2

[hofffam]

I can't understand how we have managed to get into a situation where the only true net result is that we all end up slightly worse off financially. For the suits to be legal, they have to be available to all. If they are available to and worn by everyone, there is no competitive advantage to be gained by wearing one. If we wear the suits to improve our times but gain no competitive advantage then we are merely deluding ourselves.

This isn't materially different from the change from wood to composite materials in tennis rackets. Or titanium and carbon fiber in bicycles. Although some of these things are not cheap, they are still affordable for serious competitors. No one makes anyone ride the Tour de France in a fat tire Schwinn.

Perhaps the tech suits cause everyone's performance to improve - which makes swimming faster and more appealing to spectators and TV.

Yes it makes the sport more expensive - but not radically so.

Oh - I agree with Ande's positions on the suits.

[jim thornton]

the most obvious and simplist solution is just to go back to the Mark Spitz days in the 1970s when plain old $20 briefs were the standard uniform and the only variables were the individual athlete’s body characteristics.


Can we wear goggles? Do we have to grow mustaches? Women too? And what about the music? Do we have to like disco?

Personally, the competitive aspects of masters swimming became much, much more fun for me after I wore my first body suit (a borrowed Speedo Aquablade kneeskin.)

I don't know about most masters, but these ever evolving suits have allowed me to swim times in my 50s that I am not sure I ever made in my teens and 20s. I don't compare myself to today's phenoms. This would only lead to dispiriting thoughts like:

Amaury Leveaux SC 100m free 44.94 Yeah! He beat me by LESS THAN 15 seconds!!!

I do compare myself to myself, however, and when old Jim can beat young Jim, there is a certain motivational factor involved, a "Take that, Reaper!" kind of cockiness that seems to me more than worth the cost of a suit. For what it's worth, the suit I most recently swam in costs $56 on the internet--a discontinued Tyr kneeskin. Eventually, today's B70 will be discontinued (or our masters discount will prove significant), and I might enjoy another slight bump in performance.

If these suits lead to self-delusion that keeps you competing and feeling self confident, I say what's the problem with that? Think of them as breast implant equivalents for aging male swimmers! Or breast implant over-comers for aging female swimmers with actual breast implants.

Plus i really don't want to grow a mustache. It's too cold, and when your exhalations freeze, it looks kind of disgusting.

[aquageek]

I don't know about most masters...

That's ok, neither does Dolphin 2.

I grew a sweet 'stache a few months back. I had some dudes come up to me with their own squirrel lips and tell me, "Right On!" Unfortunately, the chicks don't seem to dig the hair lip these days.

[chaos]

[QUOTE=hofffam;165430] No one makes anyone ride the Tour de France in a fat tire Schwinn.

QUOTE]

true, but there are very strict guidelines that rule out aero-dynamic additions to the steed.

[chaos]

[QUOTE=jim thornton;165435]

If these suits lead to self-delusion that keeps you competing and feeling self confident, I say what's the problem with that? QUOTE]

i prefer my self delusion "up with olives"

[Ripple]

Interesting that people keep bringing up cycling, because the closest cycling equivalent to a racing suit is the tubular ("sew-up") tire. When I was racing, you just had to have a pair of tub wheels for races if you wanted to be truly competitive, because the clincher tires and rims of the time were so heavy and lifeless. So you paid a lot of money for a light, fragile tire that could theoretically be repaired if it was punctured, but no-one ever bothered because it was a lot of work and was never quite the same after. So - $40-$60 worth of tire tossed in the garbage if you got a flat out on a time trial course.
Now clincher tires and rims are so good that they have been used for pro races, even though a set of silk tubulars is still considered the gold standard. The way technology trickles down, the "clincher rim" version of the tech suit will inevitably be available to level out the playing field. Maybe it already exists and just hasn't received as much attention. Maybe the Blue Seventy is a step in that direction.

[hofffam]

[QUOTE=hofffam;165430] No one makes anyone ride the Tour de France in a fat tire Schwinn.

QUOTE]

true, but there are very strict guidelines that rule out aero-dynamic additions to the steed.

Aero plays a tiny role in stage racing.... Aero bars are outlawed for safety reasons.

The time trial stages though allow just about everything.

[Iwannafly]

Interesting that people keep bringing up cycling, because the closest cycling equivalent to a racing suit is the tubular ("sew-up") tire. When I was racing, you just had to have a pair of tub wheels for races if you wanted to be truly competitive, because the clincher tires and rims of the time were so heavy and lifeless. So you paid a lot of money for a light, fragile tire that could theoretically be repaired if it was punctured, but no-one ever bothered because it was a lot of work and was never quite the same after. So - $40-$60 worth of tire tossed in the garbage if you got a flat out on a time trial course.
Now clincher tires and rims are so good that they have been used for pro races, even though a set of silk tubulars is still considered the gold standard. The way technology trickles down, the "clincher rim" version of the tech suit will inevitably be available to level out the playing field. Maybe it already exists and just hasn't received as much attention. Maybe the Blue Seventy is a step in that direction.
I disagree. When LeMond showed up with his aero helmet and TT bars to race the final stage of the 1989 Tour de France to beat Fignon by 58 seconds and win his second Tour, he "let the cat out of the bag." He was the first to use aero bars in the Tour and they're now standard for any TT. The sport is no worse for utilizing technological advances, like carbon frames, aero helmets, and yes, lighter clincher wheels and tires. It is worse off for the rampant drug use, but that's a story for another thread.

[aztimm]

Do any guys still show up at a meet (any USMS meet) with just a plain old brief?

I'm thinking of doing a meet in 2009, but I haven't done a meet since USMS Nationals was here in AZ (a few years, maybe 2003 or 2004). I don't own any swimsuits other than briefs and drag suits (or board shorts). Will I look out of place?

While I understand that a tech suit will get me faster, I just can't rationalize spending the money on one....I'd rather use that for my travel budget.

[Allen Stark]

Do any guys still show up at a meet (any USMS meet) with just a plain old brief?

I'm thinking of doing a meet in 2009, but I haven't done a meet since USMS Nationals was here in AZ (a few years, maybe 2003 or 2004). I don't own any swimsuits other than briefs and drag suits (or board shorts). Will I look out of place?

While I understand that a tech suit will get me faster, I just can't rationalize spending the money on one....I'd rather use that for my travel budget.

Yes,there are plenty of "old school" swimmers at every meet I've been to.Some of them even set WRs.

[ourswimmer]

Do any guys still show up at a meet (any USMS meet) with just a plain old brief?

Yes, plenty, and lots of women in ordinary tank suits. Even in the faster heats, and especially at mid-season meets.

[aztimm]

especially at mid-season meets.

Not to get too far off-topic, but what is a, "mid-season meet?"

Here in AZ, we have basically 3 meets a year, SCY/LCM/SCM. Once in a while there will be 2 meets of the same course (maybe one in Tucson/Flagstaff and one in the Phoenix area).

[gull]

Not to get too far off-topic, but what is a "mid-season meet?"


A meet when you turn 50.

[jim thornton]

In the Pittsburgh area, which is very big in YMCA masters, and almost nonexistent in USMS swimming, we have Y league masters meets every 2-3 weeks from September to March. These are what I would call "mid season" meets. I always try to swim my best at these things, but cramming four events plus a relay or two into a 3-4 hour meet doesn't always give you optimum rest between events. In a way, they are almost a cross between swimming meets and sprint practices.

As far as body suits go, I recommend you check out swimoutlet.com (one of USMS sponsors, so I am not sure if it is against the rules to recommend them). Anyhow, they often have discontinued speed suits at pretty hefty discounts. They may not be the absolute fastest suits, but they can work really well compared to normal suits. I just got a Tyr kneeskin for $56 and used it, I am hoping, to make the Top 10 (fingers crossed) in a few events for SCM.

The reason I almost always wear some sort of speed suit in meets is because you never know when the stars will align just so to allow you to swim a really good race, especially in the short events. This brings up a slightly different topic, but I will throw it out anyhow. Which is swimming "mid season" meets half-heartedly. I usually really try in every meet I swim in, although maybe in the 500 is at the end, and I am truly exhausted, "really trying" becomes sort of relative. Anyhow, I see guys all the time come to such meets and essentially loaf, swimming slower than they do in practice.

What's up with that?

[Chris Stevenson]

Not to get too far off-topic, but what is a, "mid-season meet?"

A meet for which you are untapered/unrested.

I often do not wear a tech suit at such meets, unless it is particularly important in some way (eg if I rest slightly and plan to swim an event that I won't swim later at my tapered meet). Or if I want to test out a new tech suit (better to find any problems before the big meet).

As an aside: current polling is 49-37 in favor of keeping the suits.

[jim clemmons]

Do any guys still show up at a meet (any USMS meet) with just a plain old brief?

I'm thinking of doing a meet in 2009, but I haven't done a meet since USMS Nationals was here in AZ (a few years, maybe 2003 or 2004). I don't own any swimsuits other than briefs and drag suits (or board shorts). Will I look out of place?

While I understand that a tech suit will get me faster, I just can't rationalize spending the money on one....I'd rather use that for my travel budget.

Yes, maybe half of the males still swim in briefs at Pacific meets, including championships. In fact, I swam a 500 in one (just to get used to the walls) at a meet in Monterey last year then changed into a tech suit for a 1000 that took place about an hour later.

[ourswimmer]

Jim T. described precisely what I meant by "mid-season meet."

[aztimm]

Jim T. described precisely what I meant by "mid-season meet."

Yes, Jim T and Chris S seemed to describe it pretty well. Basically it sounds like I'd keep doing my normal routine, except maybe take a few days off from weights/running before the meet (if not totally off, scale back a bit). I just want some fairly solid times (more solid than workouts) so I know where I stand.

I'm nowhere near any records/top 10, etc, and to me spending even $50 on a swimsuit seems like a waste of money, unless maybe I'm going to be doing some serious beach stuff in Hawaii or some other exotic location. As long as I don't look out of place, I'll do the meet in whatever suit I'm rotating through at the time, or maybe splurge for a new one (I usually spend $15-20 max on a suit). From what I read on here, it sounds like so many people wear these tech suits that it almost puts me off from doing a meet to begin with. I have money I could spend, but I'd rather save it for a nice vacation.

[2201East]

I voted that they should be banned because of the potential for... If I really think about it everyone should be required to have them-in response the comment that you can't ban new technology... then I think, what about the small groups that just have enough money to be involved as it is now-will it come to a point that only a select well funded groups will dominate...

All these questions are going to have to be addressed. I still think a good swimmer in a fast (non tech0 suit) is the way to go. It seems to me that is how to best level the playing field for all involved.

[Blackbeard's Peg]

I don't know about most masters, but these ever evolving suits have allowed me to swim times in my 50s that I am not sure I ever made in my teens and 20s.
The suit makers won’t go along with this, but the most obvious and simplist solution is just to go back to the Mark Spitz days in the 1970s when plain old $20 briefs were the standard uniform and the only variables were the individual athlete’s body characteristics.

Jim, the phenomenon you allude to here is EXACTLY why I think these suits are harmful. A person can't swim a certain time on their own, so they go out and buy a suit and suddenly they're a stud. I think that is just plain wrong.

A similar example: You're a teacher with a kid who can't read at all. At the end of the year, they're promoted to the next grade.

It is really fun to lower a basketball hoop a foot so I can dunk more than a tennis ball. But you don't see the NCAA lowering their hoop so I can play for Maryland.

Don't get me wrong - it is nice to go fast in the pool. I'd love to go under 5:00 in a 500. But if someone is physically unable to perform an activity within the specified rules, we shouldn't bend those rules just so I can go 4:50. That is just plain wrong.

[aztimm]

A similar example: You're a teacher with a kid who can't read at all. At the end of the year, they're promoted to the next grade.



Just playing devil's advocate, and some may be surprised that I'd raise this argument. Not to take sides here, but if the kid wears glasses/contacts and then is able to read, does that then give him an unfair advantage? What about the kids who's parents can't afford insurance and/or the cost for glasses?

Some might argue that the tech suits are simply making a level playing field for those who otherwise couldn't say read close or far items. Certainly some swimmers are at a disadvantage because of their body type/shape (some within their control, some not), and the tech suits can correct that, similar to how glasses correct vision.

[knelson]

In most cases I know of reading is not a competitive sport.

[Chris Stevenson]

Some might argue that the tech suits are simply making a level playing field for those who otherwise couldn't say read close or far items. Certainly some swimmers are at a disadvantage because of their body type/shape (some within their control, some not), and the tech suits can correct that, similar to how glasses correct vision.

Of course, the "purpose" of the tech suits was nothing of the sort (ie, making a level playing field), but I'll play along.

I don't like the analogy of swimming vs reading -- they are vastly different things -- but aside from this I also don't like the effect.

IF the suits have this disproportionate effect (a big assumption), I think it is a bad thing. So you have (for example) someone who is 6'8" and has some undeniable advantages associated with that. Fine.

But one DIS-advantage of being that tall is the increased weight, and you are saying here that you think it okay to negate that to some degree. Doesn't seem like it would be levelling the playing field at all.

It is akin to making the best climbers in cycling wear extra weight so that the heavier sprinters would have a sporting chance in the mountains. Ridiculous.

I think that, to the extent that the tech suits affect body types differently, that is a strong argument against them.

[jim thornton]

Jeff, I can see your point.

However, what about what might be called the "Scissors Effect"?

One of the very, very few swimming advantages I have is baldness.

I also have an appendage that is extraordinarily reactive to cold water and the shrinkage factor.

Then we have, on the other blocks, hirsute fellows like yourself, gifted with (what I can only assume from the female smiles you leave in your wake) the kind of apparatus that would make adult industry stars jealous.

I think you will agree that wearing any kind of binding suit whatsoever, such as a conventional Speedo brief, gives you stallion-like fellows an unnatural advantage in the water. Moreover, if you were forced to swim completely swim-cap-less and au naturelle, those raven Aztec locks untrimmed for years and pointing towards the heavens like the quills on an enraged porcupine, well--I think you see where I am going with this.

Here is the challenge:



Throw away your scissors, razor, and other shearing apparatus. No hair cuts or shaving for the next four years.
No suits of any sort whatsoever.
A 100 meter freestyle sprint in early 2103. Just the hairball big-gonaded youngster vs. the bald impotent 60 year old.
To give you one advantage, I will personally ask CreamPuff to administer a pre-race massage to loosen any muscles that may be tight at the humiliating prospect of losing to an old wreck. CreamPuff: spare no warming unguents! I insist!


This will settle the question once and for all. And the footage of such a completely natural state of swimming competition, unaided by any form of technology or even, for that matter, modicum of decency, might actually even help drive viewers to my five-star rated VLOG!

http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=26

PS The loser gets to race CreamPuff under similar conditions.

[jim thornton]

Jeff? Jeff?

I am still waiting to see if you have accepted my swimming challenge.

I am in negotiations with CreamPuff about the unguents, too.

[swimshark]

Jim, the phenomenon you allude to here is EXACTLY why I think these suits are harmful. A person can't swim a certain time on their own, so they go out and buy a suit and suddenly they're a stud. I think that is just plain wrong.

A similar example: You're a teacher with a kid who can't read at all. At the end of the year, they're promoted to the next grade.

It is really fun to lower a basketball hoop a foot so I can dunk more than a tennis ball. But you don't see the NCAA lowering their hoop so I can play for Maryland.

Don't get me wrong - it is nice to go fast in the pool. I'd love to go under 5:00 in a 500. But if someone is physically unable to perform an activity within the specified rules, we shouldn't bend those rules just so I can go 4:50. That is just plain wrong.

I second that, Jeff.

[BillS]

Jeff, I can see your point.

However, what about what might be called the "Scissors Effect"?

One of the very, very few swimming advantages I have is baldness.

I also have an appendage that is extraordinarily reactive to cold water and the shrinkage factor.

Then we have, on the other blocks, hirsute fellows like yourself, gifted with (what I can only assume from the female smiles you leave in your wake) the kind of apparatus that would make adult industry stars jealous.

I think you will agree that wearing any kind of binding suit whatsoever, such as a conventional Speedo brief, gives you stallion-like fellows an unnatural advantage in the water. Moreover, if you were forced to swim completely swim-cap-less and au naturelle, those raven Aztec locks untrimmed for years and pointing towards the heavens like the quills on an enraged porcupine, well--I think you see where I am going with this.

Here is the challenge:



Throw away your scissors, razor, and other shearing apparatus. No hair cuts or shaving for the next four years.
No suits of any sort whatsoever.
A 100 meter freestyle sprint in early 2103. Just the hairball big-gonaded youngster vs. the bald impotent 60 year old.
To give you one advantage, I will personally ask CreamPuff to administer a pre-race massage to loosen any muscles that may be tight at the humiliating prospect of losing to an old wreck. CreamPuff: spare no warming unguents! I insist!


This will settle the question once and for all. And the footage of such a completely natural state of swimming competition, unaided by any form of technology or even, for that matter, modicum of decency, might actually even help drive viewers to my five-star rated VLOG!

http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=26

PS The loser gets to race CreamPuff under similar conditions.


I was about to poke out my mind's eye in an effort to eradicate the image seared into it by Jim's challenge. But then I realized that by 2103, which is after all roughly 94 years from now, depending I suppose on Jim's meaning in specifying "early" 2103, you would both be skinless skeletal remains (or ashes, if cremation is your wont) with your organs (both male and those shared with the fairer sex as well (I suppose it's possible that one or even, although it seems most unlikely, both of you, could say that you have on occasion shared some organ of yours with the fairer sex, but that's not what I meant)) shriveled and dessicated beyond recognition. And I felt better.

[Paul Smith]

OK...first off if someone already posted about this I apologize as i have only read a few posts on this subject.

Yesterday i was talking with a Div. I college coach who's team swam at the Texas invite a few weeks back...according to him there were a lot of swimmers wearing a B70 over a LZR....he said it was across a number of teams and a fair amount of these swimmers made their "A" & "B" NCAA cuts.

Fast forward to just the last two weeks and the NCAA issues a statement which bans the use of two suits like this...but grants an exemption of sorts to swimmers who used them prior to the announcement.

It sounds like a number of coaches have written/complained to the NCAA saying it offered an unfair advantage to swimmers who were allowed to do it up until this point and that in fact to be fair the practice should be allowed thru this season...with a possible exception being to not allow it at NCAA's. It appears they (The NCAA) agreed with the observation...but refused to reverse its decision.

Nice.

[ande]

here's an article on the 2 suit topic
http://www.collegeswimming.com/news/2008/dec/12/ncaa-two-suits-too-many/

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19828.asp

[Paul Smith]

here's an article on the 2 suit topic
http://www.collegeswimming.com/news/2008/dec/12/ncaa-two-suits-too-many/

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19828.asp

Ande, I heard the Texas women's team (not the men's as it sounds like Eddie is very much against it)...and the Arizona team (men and women) had quite a few swimmers doing this?

[jim thornton]

shriveled and dessicated beyond recognition. And I felt better.

What is this world coming to when a beautiful male swimming body of the sort that I possess must be cloaked in not one, not two, but three full body suits, then left to rot for 100 years, moldering away to skeleton and dust, in order for my manifold rivals to sleep?

One might imagine the keening laments of the womenfolk alone might undo whatever repose such Salieri's of the Water can find in the vanishing of my Staff of Vengeance!

For more on me:

[ande]

not sure which swimmers double suited at the texas invite
I was up in the stands and didn't have a good view

UT women only had 6 blue 70 suits among the entire team.


spoke with one of the womens coaches after the invite who said:

+ some of the swimmers at other schools double suited

+ the NCAA had launched or was about to launch a one suit per swimmer rule

+ they didn't want to be responsible for policing this rule after the fact


One coach said the US protested double suiting at the 2008 olympics when pelligrini won the 200 free wearing 2 suits, meet officials didn't see double suiting as a rule violation.

my guess is soon the rule book is going to specify wearing 2 suits as grounds for disqualification

probably in
102.10 DISQUALIFICATIONS
.10 No swimmer is permitted to wear or use any device or substance to help his / her speed, pace or buoyancy during a race. Goggles may be worn, and rubdown oil applied if not considered excessive by the Referee.

but we might also see it in section
102.9 SWIMWEAR

the simple fact is wearing 2 or more tech suits can increase floatation and compression. One coach said zippers might be out soon too

I wrote about this back in Aug 2008 after I heard some swimmers at the US olympic trials double suited, but I think there were swimmers experimenting with this years ago.

ande


Ande, I heard the Texas women's team (not the men's as it sounds like Eddie is very much against it) ... and the Arizona team (men and women) had quite a few swimmers doing this?

[chaos]

anyone besides me notice that the poll results just shot up disproportionately.

i suspect foul play and sock puppets! i demand an investigation! (we do have the funds for this ....don't we) is ken starr available?

[Blackbeard's Peg]

Jim,

I've already run experiments with and without a cap. Only a half-second hindrance for that 100. Don't expect to win.

[jim thornton]

Jeff, a half second now. But what about four years of uninterrupted spiky hair growth! Plus I may have to get CreamPuff to begin the annointment of unguents even sooner and more regularly. There is a really good one I am recommending for scalp massage called "Minoxidil".

See you in four years, at which point I will have my people use fiber optic camera apparatus to spelunk through enough of your head hair and beard to actually visualize your face and verify that it is you, and then the race can begin. Tell Mollie to prepare herself! Three months from now, you and Howard Hughes will look like twins. Four years? I shudder to think.

[ced357]

What would be the logic behind banning zippers?

[ande]

this old article makes some interesting points:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/03/speedos-lzr-swimsuit.html

Tech suits are faster because they:
1) create a better surface than skin,
2) improve the swimmers body shape, and
3) increase bouyancy

[Dolphin 2]

this old article makes some interesting points:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2008/03/speedos-lzr-swimsuit.html

Tech suits are faster because they:
1) create a better surface than skin,
2) improve the swimmers body shape, and
3) increase bouyancy

The articles just confirm that tech suits are another "aid" to swimming.

As I've said many times before, swimming with paddles and flippers increases propulsion and speed -so why doesn't FINA allow them too? :confused:

It seems that only certain types of aids (mainly the most expensive ones being promoted by the suit makers) are OK.

Furthermore, the aggressive promotion of the tech suits is really "pushing the envelope" to the point of intolerance and there is a definite risk that that WRs (such as those set by Michael Phelps) could be voided because they were achieved with the aid of "technolgical doping".

Dolphin 2

[aquageek]

I have purchased my first tech suit and can't wait to wear it in 3 weeks at a meet. It will give me added motivation knowing that non swimming and lie-about-wearing-one Dolphin 2 will be annoyed by that.

[CreamPuff]

I have purchased my first tech suit and can't wait to wear it in 3 weeks at a meet. It will give me added motivation knowing that non swimming and lie-about-wearing-one Dolphin 2 will be annoyed by that.

Geek - you'll love it! Good luck @ Charlotte meet. :) Wish I could have been there.

[The Fortress]

Jim, the phenomenon you allude to here is EXACTLY why I think these suits are harmful. A person can't swim a certain time on their own, so they go out and buy a suit and suddenly they're a stud. I think that is just plain wrong.

Is that why most people buy tech suits though? Because they can't do X time? I bought mine because it was just the newest suit technology (apart from the LZR, which I won't buy).

[Dolphin 2]

Is that why most people buy tech suits though? Because they can't do X time? I bought mine because it was just the newest suit technology (apart from the LZR, which I won't buy).

Hey The Fortress
If you want the latest "technology" in body compression devices, just go to Macy's and check out Playtex's latest line of girdles and bras.

They are basically the same thing (and a lot cheaper than) as a tech suit. :bolt:

Dolphin 2

[aquageek]

Is that why most people buy tech suits though? Because they can't do X time? I bought mine because it was just the newest suit technology (apart from the LZR, which I won't buy).

I have to side with Fort (and thus break my resolution) in that the Peg statement is absurd. You buy the legal gear for your sport that maximizes your training.

[The Fortress]

Hey The Fortress
If you want the latest "technology" in body compression devices, just go to Macy's and check out Playtex's latest line of girdles and bras.[/B]

I'm actually not quite portly enough to require such compression devices. But you feel free to sample!

Yeah, Geek, I didn't really understand the "physically unable" comment either. Don't feel physically unable quite yet.

[Dolphin 2]

I have purchased my first tech suit and can't wait to wear it in 3 weeks at a meet. It will give me added motivation knowing that non swimming and lie-about-wearing-one Dolphin 2 will be annoyed by that.

Hey Aquageek
Actually, I won't be annoyed by that at all.

In fact I'm quite glad that someone is blowing their money and I have less competition for people bidding up real estate!!! :bump:

Dolphin 2

[aquageek]

In fact I'm quite glad that someone is blowing their money and I have less competition for people bidding up real estate!!! :bump:

Dolphin 2

Go fix an escalator and leave us alone. Better yet, go to a pool and fix their escalator, that way you could at least claim to have been near a pool once in your life.

[hofffam]

Hey Aquageek
Actually, I won't be annoyed by that at all.

In fact I'm quite glad that someone is blowing their money and I have less competition for people bidding up real estate!!! :bump:

Dolphin 2

Yup that $500 swimsuit makes a big dent in demand for $1000/sq.ft real estate in San Francisco. Keep dreaming.

[Dolphin 2]

Yup that $500 swimsuit makes a big dent in demand for $1000/sq.ft real estate in San Francisco. Keep dreaming.

Hey Hofffman
The mortgage payment on my condo here in S.F. was $3000 per month or 1/6 the cost of a tech suit.

As the old saying goes "$500 here, $500 there -and pretty soon it all adds up to a pretty big chunk of change".

Also, with mortgage payments, I've got a long term investment. However with a tech suit, all you have to show for your money after a year of use is just an expensive mop.

And with its waterproof characteristics, it may not be any good for that either.

Dolphin 2

[pwolf66]

Stop projecting YOUR value system on everyone else. If YOU don't see the value in buying a tech suit......oh wait....

[stillwater]

However with a tech suit, all you have to show for your money after a year of use is just an expensive mop.

And with its waterproof characteristics, it may not be any good for that either.


Pretty funny, and true.

[pwolf66]

Pretty funny, and true.

At best that statement can only be true for you. But how can that be true for everyone? A statement like this totally discounts the emotional enjoyment derived from wear the suit. Not to mention the physical affects, euphoria, endorphins, etc..

Who says that return on investment is only measured by monetary value? Again, stop using YOUR value system to judge everyone else.

[aquageek]

I think the people that place the value of something totally on it's price miss the whole point of athletics and competition. Then again, one who takes that approach has never competed.

[chowmi]

Finally some good posts! This is why I listed Dolphin 2 as one of my favorite posters. I didn't say I agreed!

Hope that is a fixed mortgage, or else you'll look really silly if anyone finds out it's adjustable!

Good luck to geek.
Always fun to read pwolf.
I think I like Hoffman, too.

Fort, if I ever meet you, you can try my stretched out LZR just for fun. I really, really like it. It is just not a practical suit. Extremely fragile and hard to get on, and worst of all - you have to pull it down to use the ladies' room. It only takes me about 5 minutes to get on the other suit types, this one took me a solid 20 minutes the first time. Will be going for use #2 this weekend, so we shall see the stretched-out/useful life.

[The Fortress]

A statement like this totally discounts the emotional enjoyment derived from wear the suit. Not to mention the physical affects, euphoria, endorphins, etc. Who says that return on investment is only measured by monetary value?

Dolhpin 2 is obviously too materialistic for the likes of us experiential types. Or else spending too much money on support girdles to partake in sport.

Chowmi,

Yeah, the 3-5 swims I've heard just doesn't do it for me! I will be making use and deriving psychic and spiritual benefit from the new B70 I got for xmas. :)

[stillwater]

However with a tech suit, all you have to show for your money after a year of use is just an expensive mop.

And with its waterproof characteristics, it may not be any good for that either.
A statement like this totally discounts the emotional enjoyment derived from wear the suit. Not to mention the physical affects, euphoria, endorphins, etc..
Who says that return on investment is only measured by monetary value? Again, stop using YOUR value system to

Sorry I stepped on your emotional toes. Is it possible to derive the physical effects, euphoria, endorphins, etc.. sans expensive mop suit?

I, ruler of none, decree that you may spend your money as you wish. You now have my blessing. Go forth and race before the ban.

[james lucas]

The complaint seems to be that the costly tech suits favor those with money. Top swimmers, however, get their biggest advantages not from their suits, but after they pay to swim year-around and more than once a day, and to swim under the best coaches and with the best teams. If Phelps had been a summer-league swimmer with a LZR, would you know his first name?

Here’s a change I can believe in: in the spirit of fairness, let’s persuade the breaststrokers who have been beating me in my backstroke events to clock fewer yards in their workouts and maybe take a few months off, too.

[ande]

bottomline is:
If you're trying to swim as fast as you can and you don't wear a tech suit
you're an idiot.

the FS PRO Hineck (http://tinyurl.com/mensfspro) is probably the best suit for the price.

when I compared latest generation suits on
performance, cost, # of wears, availability, andreliability,
I went with the blue seventy nero comp (http://www.tinyurl.com/nerocomp)

some masters are getting Speedo LZRs (http://www.tinyurl.com/speedolzr)

ande

[aztimm]

bottomline is:
If you're trying to swim as fast as you can and you don't wear a tech suit
you're an idiot.


I think that's a bit self-centered. Almost as bad as someone else with their diatribe about how evil these suits are.

I'm not going to object to others wearing whatever they want. But don't call me an idiot because I don't want to spend $100+ on a suit I'll wear a handfull of times.

Some of us may not have the money to spend in the first place. Others may simply have other priorities in life. I don't think anyone is an idiot if they do what they think is right for them.

[aquageek]

I think that's a bit self-centered. Almost as bad as someone else with their diatribe about how evil these suits are.

There's a huge difference. Ande actually swims and competes. The other fellow does neither and isn't a USMS member either.

If you can't afford one, fine. If you don't have that priority, fine. But, folks need to stop insinuating it in any way cheapens the sport, a person's accomplishments, etc. Every single other sport that adults can participate in went through this about two decades ago. Swimmers are just notoriously cheap and apparently also notoriously whiny (but we knew this from the Smiths already).

[jim clemmons]

Here’s a change I can believe in: in the spirit of fairness, let’s persuade the breaststrokers who have been beating me in my backstroke events to clock fewer yards in their workouts and maybe take a few months off, too.

Hmmm, :cool: doubtful. But good try. :chug:

[Tim L]

Wow, this thread has become somewhat hostile. I have no problem with other people wearing tech suits. Spend as much as you want and feel good about your times and results. I think tech suits help participation in masters and sponsorship which is a good thing.

I think the key word in Ande's quote is "you". If "you" are out to break records (like Ande) and generally breaking records in todays masters swimming requires a tech suit, then Ande's quote makes sense. How about the other 99+% of masters swimmers? Ande, I hope you didn't mean that anyone that competes and doesn't wear a tech suit is an idiot. I think for the other 99+% that it is a personal decision and no one is an idiot on either side of the discussion no matter their reasons for wearing or not wearing a tech suit. I discovered that I enjoy swimming more without a tech suit, but setting records has never been on my list of goals and giving up a little time to competitors is not a big deal in my book. It is possible to still have time goals, rankings, compete, and enjoy the sport without wearing a tech suit.

The thing that I find most fascinating about tech suits is their grasp on the general psychology of swimming.

Tim

[3strokes]

I'm not even interested in trying of one those new suits and see if it helps me go faster.

I'm competing with myself (in whichever polyester suit ---brief--- I'm using) so it doesn't matter what I'm wearing. If I'm faster than I was last year: Good. If not, Good too (if I'm still alive).

[Ripple]

I personally wouldn't buy one either, but I can certainly think of worse ways to spend the sum of money that a B70 costs.
I've had numerous co-workers over the years who went to the bar every single Friday after work ("after" work is open to interpretation, apparently - it started at noon). Most of them also smoked heavily. I'm sure they blew $500 every six weeks just on cigarettes and booze, yet one of them was incredulous that I'd spent $800 on a new road bike. ("You coulda got one at Kmart for just 90 bucks!!!")
You can easily spend $500 on trendy clothing, or eating out in restaurants on a regular basis. Or going to casinos or bingo halls. As indulgences go, tech suits are pretty benign.

[The Fortress]

I think the key word in Ande's quote is "you". If "you" are out to break records (like Ande) and generally breaking records in todays masters swimming requires a tech suit, then Ande's quote makes sense. How about the other 99+% of masters swimmers?

I think Ande's comments go beyond record breakers. He said "if you're trying to swim as fast as you can." Well, that's a whole lotta people besides those breaking national records. Many, not all, people who compete would like to go as fast as they can. (Typically, to do this, they also train like fiends, work on technique, etc. They do not merely don a tech suit to hold in their gut and float.) Others like to go as fast as they can in a non-tech suit. Either path is fine. But Geek is right. These notions of moral superiority or cheapened performances are ridiculously old fashioned and preachy and outside the world of competitive sports. It is not "plain wrong" to wear a tech suit to go fast. Gear is gear. As I've said before, this is sport, not an antique.

Now, if the naysayers want to compete in briefs to beat the pants off the tech suit swimmers, more power to them! It's like the bikers using single gear bikes for a race just for the challenge. The trash talk from this is great. The whining about the decline of the sport and the alleged inequity is what's irritating.

[Frank Thompson]

bottomline is:

the FS PRO Hineck (http://tinyurl.com/mensfspro) is probably the best suit for the price.

ande

I disagree with this. Check out FS II here at this price:

http://www.all-americanaquatics.com/catalog/skins_male.html

[Tim L]

Fortress,

I don't think it has anything to do with moral superiority or cheapened performances. Most people that I have seen don't think they are worth the cost for the performance gain. I personally think they are primarily uncomfortable and a hassle for the performance gain. Secondarily, I see no reason to pay more to make myself uncomfortable much less spend money and time to test multiple suits to see which one gives me my ultimate performance. If I had a college scholarship or something of substance on the line, then maybe I would feel differently. However, at this time in my life, it doesn't matter to me if my 50 free or 100 free would be a few tenths faster in a tech suit. For others that want to squeeze out every tenth of a second whether they are breaking records or not, then go for it and I will never criticize you or your times.

Calling people idiots for not wearing them so they can minimize their times is silly. Let's remember that Phelps (in his IM and fly events) and Park only wore legskins in the Olympics and they had a lot more on the line than any masters swimmer. Under the "techie" reasoning, I guess they are idiots. Did Ande really call Michael Phelps an idiot because he didn't use technology to his fullest advantage?

Like I said previously, I am all for people wearing tech suits because I think it is good for masters swimming. I think it helps keep people in the sport, they put swimming in the national media more, and they probably enhance sponsorship. However, it is a personal decision and not one that should be ridiculed whether you wear them or not. Non-tech suit wearing swimmers can be just as serious competitors as their techie friends. I seriously doubt that the masters rankings would change much if tech suits were banned. Perhaps, a few less records would be broken, but the same people would be breaking the records.

I have participated in other sports where technology is important as well like cycling and golf and use some of the latest technology. It is difficult to stay up with all the improvements. However, I don't think it is uncomfortable and a hassle to use the technology in those sports like it is in swimming. I also think the technology gains related to those sports are greater than what the tech suits provide. I can drive a tee shot much more consistently and noticably further with my "techie" driver and it is just as easy to swing as a conventional driver (maybe easier). Carbon fiber and aero bars are great too and personally make cycling more enjoyable for me. I like the new skis as well. Blackberries are great. I am hardly a non-techie in the rest of my life, I just don't like the comfort/hassle/cost versus performance trade-off related to the tech suits as I do for other technology. Now if they create a suit that is easy to put on, isn't uncomfortable, costs less or lasts longer, and produces larger time drops maybe I would be all over that suit.

Anyway, I don't think anyone's records produced in a tech suit are cheapened by the suit and I don't think that is the most common reason for people not wearing them (that would be cost and comfort in relation to the individual's desire for a performance gain).

Tim

[aquageek]

Most people that I have seen don't think they are worth the cost for the performance gain.

Have you been to a well attended USMS meet in the last 5 years? I would hazard a guess that at least 50% of the participants think they are worth the cost for the performance gain. Nationals meets, well over 75% I'd say.

Your reference to these suits being more time consuming than say golf of biking is bologna. It takes forever to pack up the bike, the gear, mount the thing, drive to the starting point. In that time even the slowest amongst us can put in 3 or 4 heavy swim workouts and take on and off the tech suits 3 or 4 times. Golf is even worse. I have to have a checklist for biking and golf.

If you take your competing and training seriously you buy a nice suit, end of story, stop the whining.

[Tim L]

Aquageek,

I have been to well attended national/international masters meets (Austin and Worlds in Standford). I admit I don't attend every national meet. I wore a tech suit at Stanford and didn't wear one at Austin. Results were similar (actually better in Austin and my training was largely the same). Tech suits have improved since Stanford, but they are still uncomfortable and from the sounds of it more expensive on a per use basis. Give me a break on the group think. Are you a tech suit lemming? It isn't like 100% of the national meet swimmers wear tech suits. It isn't like you can't make the top ten without a tech suit.

You missed the point on the hassle of the tech equipment. Yes, cycling and golf have lots of equipment and that can be a pain, but when you decide to buy something specific in golf, skiing, or cycling that is a technical improvement to standard equipment that technical equipment usually increases enjoyment of the sport as well as providing you with improvement in your score or times than a tech suit. In many ways tech suits are inferior technology in relation to other sports technology. Do you not agree that something like aero bars in cycling increases comfort as well as providing a performance enhancement? Are the latest drivers in golf any harder to use than a driver 10, 20, 30, 50 years ago? Now, is a tech suit harder to put on than a brief? Yes. Does a tech suit restrict breathing, bind your shoulders and reduce range of motion? Yes. Do you worry about zippers, rear end blow-outs, durability, and other similar issues in a tech suit? Yes. For me those things are a hassle which are not found in golf clubs, skis, and aero bars and most technical advances in other sports and that influences my buying decision and probably many others.

I like competing and training just as much as you. I just don't think people should be called idiots for not wearing tech suits. Do you think Phelps is an idiot because he didn't wear a full tech suit in the 200IM/400 IM/100 fly/200 fly at the Olympics? Why don't you and Ande write into Swimming World magazine to the editor and call out Michael Phelps for not being a serious enough competitor for the USA and general "idiot" and see what that gets you? Maybe Park could have beaten the world record in the 400 Free if he wore a full tech suit. I only wish Park was more serious about competing, like you. Perhaps, Park hadn't been to any national or international meets prior to the Olympics and didn't understand he couldn't compete or be taken seriously without a full tech suit.

Tim

[aquageek]

Get a congregation, seriously. I've never seen so many people who find it necessary to preach to others about all they know about equipment and gear. You don't like it, don't wear it but leave us alone.

The majority of swimmers at Nationals will be wearing speed suits. That puts the rest as wearers of antiquated gear that is not designed to capitalize on their training. Or, to put it simply, idiots.

I 100% guarantee you that while you don't have to wear one to get Top 10 as USMS (yet), you sure as heck do as an age grouper over about 13/14. You can catch the wave or sit on the beach and continue preaching and snivelling.

[Tim L]

Sorry that I don't wholly agree with you and your congregation. Continue your worship of the tech suits.

Tim

[aquageek]

Sorry that I don't wholly agree with you and your congregation. Continue your worship of the tech suits.

Tim

No one here worships tech suits. We just get really really tired of all the holier than thou (maybe) swimmers telling us how we are wasting our money, ruining swimming, making the playing field uneven, etc. Do you follow people around in grocery stores commenting on the value of the wine and beer they buy? Leave it be!

[Iwannafly]

I'm pretty sure Tim isn't preaching. He simply said that a tech suit wasn't worth it for him. But that certainly doesn't make him an idiot, just as it didn't make Phelps an idiot. And, Geek, you're wrong about an age grouper NEEDING a tech suit to place in national level meets. There are a couple of recent age groupers from Lynchburg who placed top 3 at Y Nationals and Junior Nationals that did NOT wear tech suits other than a jammer!

[aquageek]

At SCY national championships all competitors were given free FS Pro's or greatly reduced LZRs, or so I'm told. They are here to stay and the vast majority wear them as top performing age groupers. Well, they are here to stay until the communists ban them.

[Iwannafly]

At SCY national championships all competitors were given free FS Pro's or greatly reduced LZRs, or so I'm told. They are here to stay and the vast majority wear them as top performing age groupers. Well, they are here to stay until the communists ban them.

The two age groupers who went from Lynchburg were loaned an LZR this year. I know they both wore them and thought they were cool. I don't know whether or not either one will go out and buy one.
I will make this pledge: If I crack the top ten for USMS, I will buy a tech suit. With my 29 high 50 free, I'm still a long way from cracking the top ten though!

[Tim L]

Geek,

If you are commenting that I might not be a swimmer - any time, any distance, any stroke. Bring it on. Wear whatever suit you want. I think I might be able to hang with you or at least I will try.

I don't care what you drink or wear. I just think it is wrong to call people idiots for making rational economic decisions based on their own values and it seems like that is what this thread has come to. I would venture to guess that a majority of registered masters swimmers don't own a tech suit. According to multiple "techie" posters, either you are a competitive swimmer who does everything possible to minimize your time or you are an idiot. When you put it is that context, yes, it sounds like you are worshiping the tech suits to me.

I am totally o.k. with you spending as much as you want on alcoholic beverages and tech suits. I don't think there is a competitive problem with suits either. I think the suits are good for the sport in general. I just don't think they are a prerequisite to competitive swimming except, perhaps, at the very highest levels and even then there are exceptions. You can spend your money however you want and I am fine with it.

Don't call non-tech suit wearers idiots and you won't hear from me again on this subject.

I think masters swimmers making such statements may make people that want to join masters hesitate because it makes us sound like an overly-competitive group rather then the ambassadors to swimming. I also don't think we want to make tech suits sound like some financial hurdle/prerequisite that you need to have before you can attend a meet or nationals because it is far from that.

Tim

[aquageek]

If you are commenting that I might not be a swimmer - any time, any distance, any stroke. Bring it on. Wear whatever suit you want. I think I might be able to hang with you or at least I will try.
Tim

Are you off the meds? Obviously you are a swimmer, that wasn't directed at you, preacher boy.

[The Fortress]

Geek,

If you are commenting that I might not be a swimmer - any time, any distance, any stroke. Bring it on. Wear whatever suit you want. I think I might be able to hang with you or at least I will try.

I don't care what you drink or wear. I just think it is wrong to call people idiots for making rational economic decisions based on their own values and it seems like that is what this thread has come to. I would venture to guess that a majority of registered masters swimmers don't own a tech suit. According to multiple "techie" posters, either you are a competitive swimmer who does everything possible to minimize your time or you are an idiot. When you put it is that context, yes, it sounds like you are worshiping the tech suits to me.

I am totally o.k. with you spending as much as you want on alcoholic beverages and tech suits. I don't think there is a competitive problem with suits either. I think the suits are good for the sport in general. I just don't think they are a prerequisite to competitive swimming except, perhaps, at the very highest levels and even then there are exceptions. You can spend your money however you want and I am fine with it.

Don't call non-tech suit wearers idiots and you won't hear from me again on this subject.

I think masters swimmers making such statements may make people that want to join masters hesitate because it makes us sound like an overly-competitive group rather then the ambassadors to swimming. I also don't think we want to make tech suits sound like some financial hurdle/prerequisite that you need to have before you can attend a meet or nationals because it is far from that.

Tim

I don't think Ande meant it in a super nasty way. I've never seen him post one mean thought actually.

You seem to have a reasoned view. Geek and I (and others) are just used to hearing the "fire and brimstone" vitriole involving moral degradation and general ruination to the sport these suits will cause. If you read some of the other tech suit threads, you'll see this is a recurring theme.

You may not find everyone in a B70 or LZR or Pro, but, with the exception of the LZR, these seem increasingly ubiquitous at Nats and other big meets. And you definitely won't find many in nylon tanks and briefs/jammers at these meets. Even those preferring those styles are usually in FS IIs or the like. Very good deals on FS IIs at the moment that could in no way be considered a "financial hurdle" for masters swimmers.

[stillwater]

The vitrol spewed here by people who need so desperately to spend extra money to enjoy the sport amazes me. The slight extra speed is probably a fact, but right now, God only knows (or maybe Santa). Spend your money. Swim fast (relatively speaking). Brag. Call people names. Whine when the ban comes.


I am starting to rember why I enjoyed the company of water polo players. None of those suit mops for them.

[aquageek]

Whine when the ban comes.


I don't know if there's any whining left after all you anti speed people have been crying like little children on the topic for a year or more now. You've used up the swimmer's whine allotment for life, maybe two lives.

[Tim L]

Geek,

Just trying to have some fun in a otherwise boring day. I thought the call out was a nice touch and I was hoping for good response. "Preacher boy" - I like it. Still don't like the idiot comments, but...at least we agree that college football is great, right?

Fort,

I am sure Ande didn't mean it as harshly as it sounded.

Preacher Boy:angel:

[aquageek]

at least we agree that college football is great, right?

Word up, Preach!

[Iwannafly]

Word up, Preach!
Oh the humanity...The Geek is agreeing with people. You may as well just send John Smith a lovey-dovey PM!!!

[cyclist]

.....I think the suits are good for the sport in general. ......

Tim
I know you've posted about not using one etc.... but why would you make the above comment?

I see no good from the suits and the people who wear them don't have a reason why they are good for swimming either. When everyone drops a similar percentage of their time at the same time for the same reason that is not training related what's the good coming from it? You aren't swimming any better than you would without the suit although your times might be faster. One of the nice things about swimming is (was) being able to have a level playing field without expensive equipment playing a factor.

Hopefully FINA will go along with the suggestions of USA swimming, AU swimming and their European counterparts and the current generation of suits will be banned and the hopefully USMS will follow.

[Iwannafly]

I know you've posted about not using one etc.... but why would you make the above comment?

I see no good from the suits and the people who wear them don't have a reason why they are good for swimming either. When everyone drops a similar percentage of their time at the same time for the same reason that is not training related what's the good coming from it? You aren't swimming any better than you would without the suit although your times might be faster. One of the nice things about swimming is (was) being able to have a level playing field without expensive equipment playing a factor.

Hopefully FINA will go along with the suggestions of USA swimming, AU swimming and their European counterparts and the current generation of suits will be banned and the hopefully USMS will follow.

I think this is ridiculous. Why stop there? Riders in the Tour de France should have to go back to riding steel bikes with no helmets. Tennis players should have to go back to using wooden rackets. Golfers should have to go back to using wooden drivers. Oh yeah, and basketball players should all be required to wear Chuck Taylors and short shorts!

[The Fortress]

I see no good from the suits and the people who wear them don't have a reason why they are good for swimming either. When everyone drops a similar percentage of their time at the same time for the same reason that is not training related what's the good coming from it? You aren't swimming any better than you would without the suit although your times might be faster. One of the nice things about swimming is (was) being able to have a level playing field without expensive equipment playing a factor.

Hopefully FINA will go along with the suggestions of USA swimming, AU swimming and their European counterparts and the current generation of suits will be banned and the hopefully USMS will follow.

Huh?

Tech suits have brought a lot of attention to and publicity for swimming. It's in the news more as a result. And new technology is exciting. Why should swimming be staid and dull? And how do you know all of the improvements were exactly the same and purely reflected tech suit use? I think not, and I know in my lowly masters case that's not true.

What "level playing field" is it that you speak of? Don't see it. They're dozens of other inequalities in terms of coaching, training, time, injuries, pool availability, massage/chiro money, etc. They've been listed before on another anti-tech suit thread.

And what ban are you speaking of? USA Swimming is not seeking to ban the current generation of tech suits. They're seeking to limit the use for kids under 12 and to ban wearing more than one suit. So I've no idea what "ban" you refer to. These suits are here to stay. There will just be some reasonable limits put on them for growing kiddies and to prevent people going hog wild with B210s. Most tech suit fans seem to agree that one suit is enough. Better stick to the bike.

[chaos]

ok, i have to weigh in.

first, i can't believe that ande would set out to offend anyone. he is nicer than me by a fair margin and exponentially nicer than geek.

i might argue semantics here and say that i can have an anchor strapped to my ass and still swim as fast as i can.

i still wonder how the pros outnumbered the cons by about 10 for months and now that margin is double.
have some people reregistered on the forum just to tilt the scale of this poll? if thats the case (i suspect it is) then that is the real story here.... and i think it might expose the dark side of masters swimming (i do love a good conspiracy theory)

[cyclist]

And what ban are you speaking of? USA Swimming is not seeking to ban the current generation of tech suits. They're seeking to limit the use for kids under 12 and to ban wearing more than one suit. So I've no idea what "ban" you refer to. These suits are here to stay. There will just be some reasonable limits put on them for growing kiddies and to prevent people going hog wild with B210s. Most tech suit fans seem to agree that one suit is enough. Better stick to the bike.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19679.asp

[thewookiee]

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19679.asp

Re-read the link you posted. They are not seeking to ban tech suits out right. They are seeking to limit the amount of skin they cover and they are asking for at least 12 months of study before a new suit si approved.
This is not seeking a total ban on all tech suits. I agree with Ande,Geek and Fort... let those of us that like tech suits spend our money on them that want too. If you or this or that person doesn't want to use them or believe in them, fine, but stop trying to push your beliefs about swimming on others.

[thewookiee]

I am starting to rember why I enjoyed the company of water polo players. None of those suit mops for them.

You are can always go back to water polo then.

[The Fortress]

Re-read the link you posted. They are not seeking to ban tech suits out right. They are seeking to limit the amount of skin they cover and they are asking for at least 12 months of study before a new suit si approved.
This is not seeking a total ban on all tech suits. I agree with Ande,Geek and Fort... let those of us that like tech suits spend our money on them that want too. If you or this or that person doesn't want to use them or believe in them, fine, but stop trying to push your beliefs about swimming on others.

I read that link and the comments. The first comment, as per usual, was "morals vs. gold." Groan. Another bemoaned the damage to the sport and the erasing of old glorious hard-earned times. Sigh. Why is it some have so much trouble with advancement?

Does anyone think FINA will adopt USA Swimming's proposed below the knee ban? Seems ridiculous to me, as suits to the ankle have been standard since Sydney. And why exactly would USMS have to follow this rule? We're old, for god's sake. Can't we decide what we want to wear? If FINA did somehow adopt the USA proposed below the knee ban, would USMS have to follow suit? Or could there be a different rule for FINA and USMS masters?

[aquageek]

I don't know a single person who practices regularly in a tech suit, and that includes the Olympic Prep group that trains in our facilities. In fact, one of them today was wearing your standard square leg baggy nylon thing. The point is these things do not replace hard work in practice nor do they disguise poor swimming in a race. They are simply a tool. People need to get off their high horses about this. Swimming is one of the last sports to embrace technology and it's about time. There is so little that is techie or new to swimming to entice the kids. If all it takes is a $200-$300 suit, well that's a pittance to get the rolls up.

When our swim shop got the LZRs in stock, there was a buzz, WITH THE KIDS. How many pieces of swim equipment do kids get excited about - ZERO?

[Tim L]

Geek,

At least we have some common ground to work with.

Cyclist,

Just because I personally don't care for the suits doesn't mean that I don't think they are good for the sport. I think I have posted that a number of times. In regard to masters swimming I think it helps bring more attention and competitors to the sport and most likely sponsorship as well. In my book those are all good things. Swimming has made many stroke and turn changes in the last 20 years that probably affect times as much as the tech suits. Not to mention the non-rule changes like increased use of SDKs which decrease times significantly. I would say all the changes in rules including the suits have been positive for the sport. I think the suit costs are relatively inexpensive so if you are really looking to beat a time or person and you think that is the difference, then buying a suit is easy. Don't mistake me for a purist or a preacher that is against tech suits. So for now, put me in the category of pro-tech suit, but they just are not for me given my lack of desire to squeeze out ever tenth of a second.

Preach

[Iwannafly]

And, it's not like records haven't been falling in other sports. Track & Field arguably has had fewer technological advances than swimming. Yet records continue to fall.
Suits or no, records would continue to fall.

[aquageek]

Dog gone it, Preachy. One day you are speaking jibberish and barking at the moon, the next you have seen the light. Very confusing.

[chaos]

[QUOTE=The Fortress;166676] Why is it some have so much trouble with advancement?

Does anyone think FINA will adopt USA Swimming's proposed below the knee ban? Seems ridiculous to me, as suits to the ankle have been standard since Sydney. QUOTE]

lets not forget that the real competition going on here is between suit manufacturers for market share.
my crystal ball says:
2012: the next big advancement will be in the fabric that enwraps the arms below the elbow and perhaps extended to a fingerless glove with grippy little "scales".
2016: olympic swimmers compete in open water without their skin even getting wet (except from sweat)
2020: ?????????????

[Dolphin 2]

I don't know a single person who practices regularly in a tech suit, and that includes the Olympic Prep group that trains in our facilities. In fact, one of them today was wearing your standard square leg baggy nylon thing. The point is these things do not replace hard work in practice nor do they disguise poor swimming in a race. They are simply a tool. People need to get off their high horses about this. Swimming is one of the last sports to embrace technology and it's about time. There is so little that is techie or new to swimming to entice the kids. If all it takes is a $200-$300 suit, well that's a pittance to get the rolls up.

When our swim shop got the LZRs in stock, there was a buzz, WITH THE KIDS. How many pieces of swim equipment do kids get excited about - ZERO?

Hey Aquageek:
Regarding your comment about “technology” (the use of so called tech suits) making swimming an enticement and exciting to kids, I doubt that’s going to work.

Kids already hate the hassle of taking ordinary P.E. and the hassle of using a tech suit for swimming will exacerbate the problem instead of making things better.

I absolutely hated taking P.E. in junior high school because of the hassle of changing clothes, getting hot and sweaty, having to take a shower, and getting dressed again. :bitching:

In high school however, the P.E. center had a full sized pool for lap swimming and I actually embraced taking P.E. where I could change into my simple briefs and swim laps without the hassle of getting hot and sweaty. :banana:

If I had to endure the hassle of putting on one of those “techy suits” (like being swallowed by a python) then swimming in it (and the horrid sensation getting hot and sweaty inside a waterproof suit), I would have NEVER gone near P.E. -much less the pool. :bitching:

If you want to get kids interested in P.E. again, then get the hassle out of it –and tech suits are a hassle if there ever was one. :bitching:

Dolphin 2

[aquageek]

Are you really that stupid or is it an act?

Go away, please.

[Iwannafly]

Hey Aquageek:
Regarding your comment about “technology” (the use of so called tech suits) making swimming an enticement and exciting to kids, I doubt that’s going to work.

Kids already hate the hassle of taking ordinary P.E. and the hassle of using a tech suit for swimming will exacerbate the problem instead of making things better.

I absolutely hated taking P.E. in junior high school because of the hassle of changing clothes, getting hot and sweaty, having to take a shower, and getting dressed again. :bitching:

In high school however, the P.E. center had a full sized pool for lap swimming and I actually embraced taking P.E. where I could change into my simple briefs and swim laps without the hassle of getting hot and sweaty. :banana:

If I had to endure the hassle of putting on one of those “techy suits” (like being swallowed by a python) then swimming in it (and the horrid sensation getting hot and sweaty inside a waterproof suit), I would have NEVER gone near P.E. -much less the pool. :bitching:

If you want to get kids interested in P.E. again, then get the hassle out of it –and tech suits are a hassle if there ever was one. :bitching:

Dolphin 2
It's is obvious to me that you are either a moron or you love to stir the pot. My vote is for the latter, but I'm sure some will argue with me.
Nobody wants the frickin' PE kids to wear a tech suit in the pool. There are very few places in the country where kids get to swim for PE. The tech suits are exciting for kids who swim competitively. They're exciting for many adults who swim somewhat competitively. They drew a lot of attention to swimming outside of the interest garnered by Phelps and his quest for 8 gold medals.
And it's pretty obvious that those kids who don't like PE because it's a hassle, are not the same kids who are swimming and competing for time cuts and devoting a significant portion of their time to training.

[thewookiee]

Hey Aquageek:

Kids already hate the hassle of taking ordinary P.E. and the hassle of using a tech suit for swimming will exacerbate the problem instead of making things better.

IIf you want to get kids interested in P.E. again, then get the hassle out of it –and tech suits are a hassle if there ever was one. :bitching:

Dolphin 2

Once again, you open your mouth and prove you don't know anything about competive swimming or kids.

Yea, the suits aren't easy to get on, no one has argued that point. But every kid that I have coached and swim with at practice, LOVES getting the tech suits.
They look forward to the championship meets where their coaches allow them to wear their tech suits.
Kids don't view the suits a hassle to race in, the look forward to the meets where they are able to wear them. They love the feeling of diving in with the tech suits on and RACING with them.
The tech suits makes things better because the kids love to get them and race in them.

[thewookiee]

Are you really that stupid or is it an act?

Geek- I vote for the first choice

[pwolf66]

Hey Aquageek:
Regarding your comment about “technology” (the use of so called tech suits) making swimming an enticement and exciting to kids, I doubt that’s going to work.

Kids already hate the hassle of taking ordinary P.E. and the hassle of using a tech suit for swimming will exacerbate the problem instead of making things better.

I absolutely hated taking P.E. in junior high school because of the hassle of changing clothes, getting hot and sweaty, having to take a shower, and getting dressed again. :bitching:

In high school however, the P.E. center had a full sized pool for lap swimming and I actually embraced taking P.E. where I could change into my simple briefs and swim laps without the hassle of getting hot and sweaty. :banana:

If I had to endure the hassle of putting on one of those “techy suits” (like being swallowed by a python) then swimming in it (and the horrid sensation getting hot and sweaty inside a waterproof suit), I would have NEVER gone near P.E. -much less the pool. :bitching:

If you want to get kids interested in P.E. again, then get the hassle out of it –and tech suits are a hassle if there ever was one. :bitching:

Dolphin 2


Once again I am astounded at your absolute cluelessness with regards to the use of 'tech suits'. They are for wear during swimming competitions, preferably in major championship meets in fast pools where the swimmer wearing said suit has trained heavily for and is tapered. NOT for wearing in P.E. class :rolleyes:

I have seen many a troll on many a BBS/Forum/ChatRoom etc but you sir, are a true top 5 percent-er for bringing absoutely nothing relevant to any discussion you stomp your way into.

[Iwannafly]

...inside a waterproof suit...

AND, having never worn one of these suits or even having held one, what makes you think you can say they are waterproof? They saturate just like any other piece of fabric (perhaps a bit slower).

[Tim L]

Geek,

You must have only read the inflamatory portions of my posts on this subject. See my post on December 10th to show that I have been consistent that I think the tech suits are good for the sport. I think I mentioned it a few other times as well.

You and Ande just ticked me off with the "idiot" comments regarding non-tech suit wearers. I understand that you were probably trying to combat the lack of logic and swimming experience/expertise of the some of the posters. There is room for everyone in the sport and I really don't see that not wearing the suits is a substantial disadvantage for most masters swimmers, except at the highest levels of the sport. If you are out to compete once in while, not break records, and your training is not optimized, you hardly need a tech suit. I am a decent swimmer, but that is the category I belong in and most masters swimmers probably fall into this category. Everyone likes dropping time so I am sure there is an addictive quality to the suits for even average swimmers. Addiction to the sport is good and progress is good. Records are made to be broken.

I am done with this subject. Back to work. Yes, I do have a job and passed the substance abuse testing.

Preach

[hofffam]

Dolphin 2 - I suggest you drive down to Berkley and climb up a tree and start a protest against the suits. When the time comes for you to return to earth you can apply your knowledge repairing elevators to help you.

You have no idea once again what you are talking about.

Kids don't want to take PE because of tech suits?

Can you connect the conflict in Gaza to tech suits?

Perhaps the Detroit automaker's problems are caused by tech suits.

What else?

[Dolphin 2]

Once again, you open your mouth and prove you don't know anything about competive swimming or kids.

Yea, the suits aren't easy to get on, no one has argued that point. But every kid that I have coached and swim with at practice, LOVES getting the tech suits.
They look forward to the championship meets where their coaches allow them to wear their tech suits.
Kids don't view the suits a hassle to race in, the look forward to the meets where they are able to wear them. They love the feeling of diving in with the tech suits on and RACING with them.
The tech suits makes things better because the kids love to get them and race in them.

Hey Thewookie
I just don't get the idea of how using a tech suit for racing in swimming is any kind of athletic achievement anyway. :confused:

If all you want to do is just swim for the thrill of racing, the most effective way to increase your speed is to increase your propulsion -and this can be done by simply putting on a set of paddles and flippers. They aren't as gimmicky as an expensive "tech suit", but they definitely make swimming more racey. :blah:

If you really want to be in a "racey" sport, then get into NASCAR. But if you want to race in swimming, then just be a good swimmer. :agree:

Dolphin 2

[aquageek]

I just don't get the idea of how using a tech suit for racing in swimming is any kind of athletic achievement anyway. :confused:

That's because you've never been on a swim team, never been in a meet, never competed in swimming of any sort, never worn a fast suit, despite telling us you had at one point, never been around a club team, never been on or around a USMS team. Other than that, you are fully credentialed to speak on swimming.

[stillwater]

You are can always go back to water polo then.

I will examine what you wrote and place it in my consideration file.

[The Fortress]

I just don't get the idea of how using a tech suit for racing in swimming is any kind of athletic achievement anyway. :confused:

If you really want to be in a "racey" sport, then get into NASCAR. But if you want to race in swimming, then just be a good swimmer.


Nut job.

How's that for nicey mcnice, Tim?

[thewookiee]

Hey Thewookie
I just don't get the idea of how using a tech suit for racing in swimming is any kind of athletic achievement anyway. :confused:

If all you want to do is just swim for the thrill of racing, the most effective way to increase your speed is to increase your propulsion -and this can be done by simply putting on a set of paddles and flippers. They aren't as gimmicky as an expensive "tech suit", but they definitely make swimming more racey. :blah:

If you really want to be in a "racey" sport, then get into NASCAR. But if you want to race in swimming, then just be a good swimmer. :agree:

Dolphin 2

You don't race. You have never raced in a meet. You don't understand the mental side of the sport.
If you have never been involved in the competitive side of the sport, you can't understand all the things that go into racing. The highs and lows.
The athletic achievement comes from the athlete. The type of pool, lane lines, starting blocks, goggles,training done and suit all aid in the athlete getting the achievement. But, you have never done anything in the sport other than thrash around in a lap pool, so you wouldn't know anything about competive swimming and your countless crap proves it too.
NASCAR uses technology for drivers,cars, crew chiefs, and pit crews to help them improve their performance. NASCAR has gone through a similar transformation as swimming. The car's have evolved, just like the suits. How they train the drives have evolved, just like swimmers. The materials used in the make-up for the cars have evolved into a more streamlined, lighter, slicker material to help the drivers get the best preformance out of the themselves and the cars. Just like swimsuits.
So, you are not only wrong about swimming but auto racing as well.

Since you don't compete and haven't competed, why do you care what suits are legal for competition? Or is it you just feel like being a pain in the butt, making uninformed comments to prove ignorance?

[thewookiee]

...place it in my consideration file.

The same place a lot of us will put your opinions about tech suits.

[stillwater]

I have had a change of heart. The "cabal of friendliness" has made me see the light. Tech suits for everyone and everyone a tech suit.

I do propose an improvement. If we could raise the material up a bit, say to just below the nose, it would solve most people's problems.

[pwolf66]

I do propose an improvement. If we could raise the material up a bit, say to just below the nose, it would solve most people's problems.

2 POINTS!!!!!!!!!! :rofl:

[Dolphin 2]

That's because you've never been on a swim team, never been in a meet, never competed in swimming of any sort, never worn a fast suit, despite telling us you had at one point, never been around a club team, never been on or around a USMS team. Other than that, you are fully credentialed to speak on swimming.

Hey Aquageek
Nothing in your reply presents a valid argument against what I said in my previous post.

What you should have done is just quoted my post and simply left the space for the rest of your post blank. :anim_coffee:
Dolphin 2

[chaos]

pot stirring time:

two more topics for poll/discussion relating to this subject.

1. at what point do the tech suits become unreasonable?

a- $500 suit = (-).5 sec pre 100 yds
b- $1,000 suit = (-)1 second per 100 yds
c- $5,000 suit = (-) 2 seconds per 100 yards

you get the idea. so i would love to hear from the pro suits here.

2. how many folks on this forum in favor of the tech suits are in fact not paying for them? come on.... full disclosure here.

[thewookiee]

pot stirring time:

two more topics for poll/discussion relating to this subject.

1. at what point do the tech suits become unreasonable?

a- $500 suit = (-).5 sec pre 100 yds
b- $1,000 suit = (-)1 second per 100 yds
c- $5,000 suit = (-) 2 seconds per 100 yards

you get the idea. so i would love to hear from the pro suits here.

2. how many folks on this forum in favor of the tech suits are in fact not paying for them? come on.... full disclosure here.

As to your first question, I don't know at what price they become unreasonable for every individual,since different people have different incomes and are willing to spend different amounts.
If the suits have the life of a B70 or they improve their durabilty, then I could see people paying between $500-$1000 for them. Esp., if you plan on using one suit for an extended period of time(several nationals/ big time sectionals/zone championship meets)
If the suit goes up to a $1000, but only has 2-3 uses, then I will probably stick to the FS Pro II or a TYR/Arena similar style suit.

As for your second question, I pay for mine.

[aquageek]

1. at what point do the tech suits become unreasonable?

They become unreasonable when they exceed the price you are willing to pay for them. And, then, as now, it's an individual decision.

[Dolphin 2]

pot stirring time:

two more topics for poll/discussion relating to this subject.

1. at what point do the tech suits become unreasonable?

a- $500 suit = (-).5 sec pre 100 yds
b- $1,000 suit = (-)1 second per 100 yds
c- $5,000 suit = (-) 2 seconds per 100 yards

you get the idea. so i would love to hear from the pro suits here.

2. how many folks on this forum in favor of the tech suits are in fact not paying for them? come on.... full disclosure here.

Hey Chaos
The point that tech suits become unreasonable is when a person's credit card debt gets so large they go belly up buying them, can't make their rent or mortgage payments or car payments, wind up living on the street, and eating at a soup kitchen. :badday:

And most of the middle class is about two months from being in that prediament.

Dolphin 2

[pwolf66]

pot stirring time:

two more topics for poll/discussion relating to this subject.

1. at what point do the tech suits become unreasonable?

a- $500 suit = (-).5 sec pre 100 yds
b- $1,000 suit = (-)1 second per 100 yds
c- $5,000 suit = (-) 2 seconds per 100 yards

you get the idea. so i would love to hear from the pro suits here.

2. how many folks on this forum in favor of the tech suits are in fact not paying for them? come on.... full disclosure here.

1- a is about the limit for me this year, it would have been a little more several years ago but then again, I paid only $290 of my B70
2 - I definately pay for mine.

[pwolf66]

Hey Chaos
The point that tech suits become unreasonable is when a person's credit card debt gets so large they go belly up buying them, can't make their rent or mortgage payments or car payments, wind up living on the street, and eating at a soup kitchen. :badday:

And most of the middle class is about two months from being in that prediament.

Dolphin 2

And yet that is a decision that every individual must make for themselves and not have self-appointed protectors, such as yourself, make for them.

Hmm, I would think that a $3000 mortgage payment would be more of a factor. But that's just me. Using that figure I could buy 2 suits a month, pay my mortgage and still have enough left to buy groceries.

[chaos]

They become unreasonable when they exceed the price you are willing to pay for them. And, then, as now, it's an individual decision.

what about part 2 of that .......at what point does the tech suit time advantage become unreasonable? 1 sec/100yd? 2 sec/100yd? etc. i don't expect there to be a universal agreement on this but i am curious to know what everyone thinks about this?

[chaos]

Hey Chaos
The point that tech suits become unreasonable is when a person's credit card debt gets so large they go belly up buying them, can't make their rent or mortgage payments or car payments, wind up living on the street, and eating at a soup kitchen.
Dolphin 2

soup is good.

[stillwater]

What if the manufacturer deems you not worthy of purchasing their suit, and decides to sell or give fastest suit to your competitor?

[pwolf66]

What if the manufacturer deems you not worthy of purchasing their suit, and decides to sell or give fastest suit to your competitor?


Interesting hypothetical. But that's all it is.

[aquageek]

what about part 2 of that .......at what point does the tech suit time advantage become unreasonable? 1 sec/100yd? 2 sec/100yd? etc. i don't expect there to be a universal agreement on this but i am curious to know what everyone thinks about this?

To me, it's irrelevant. If you want the speed and can afford it, buy it.

[The Fortress]

pot stirring time:

two more topics for poll/discussion relating to this subject.

1. at what point do the tech suits become unreasonable?

a- $500 suit = (-).5 sec pre 100 yds
b- $1,000 suit = (-)1 second per 100 yds
c- $5,000 suit = (-) 2 seconds per 100 yards

you get the idea. so i would love to hear from the pro suits here.

2. how many folks on this forum in favor of the tech suits are in fact not paying for them? come on.... full disclosure here.

Are you assuming FINA approves these suits?

I recall this post from another anti-tech suit thread:

"I understand that there are "concept" suits (not related to swimming) that have the potential, via some biofeedback mechanism, to postpone or mitigate the effects of fatigue. I also saw another post that mentioned a nano-fabric material that is hydrophobic (much like an article about water lillies in a recent SciAm). My point is that the current generation of swim skin/speed suits are merely a manifestation of technology and that we should expect further performance enhancing developments."

Those sound like they could be a tad spendy. I can't see shelling out big bucks for a suit that only lasts a few swims.

Apart from gossip, I've only had one masters swimmer tell me that he/she gets free suits. I'm sure the vast majority don't.

[stillwater]

To me, it's irrelevant. If you want the speed and can afford it, buy it.

And there is the rub. You are buying speed. You have taken a sport that didn't have all the gizmos and googahs and turned it into NASCAR. Only the wealthy will own records.

What is done is done. You can't put a fart back, even if it really stinks.

[chaos]

Are you assuming FINA approves these suits?


Apart from gossip, I've only had one masters swimmer tell me that he/she gets free suits. I'm sure the vast majority don't.

just speaking hypothetically.

i am also sure that the vast majority are paying for them, but i am also sure that many highly visible swimmers don't.

[chaos]

To me, it's irrelevant. If you want the speed and can afford it, buy it.

ok then why not steroids or blood doping?

[aquageek]

Only the wealthy will own records.


That is ridiculous. You can get one for under $200 these days, hardly requires much wealth. Get off your high horse, leave us alone, fart into the wind instead.

[stillwater]

leave us alone

Yup, I guess it is time for me to leave your little clique.

[thewookiee]

And there is the rub. You are buying speed. You have taken a sport that didn't have all the gizmos and googahs and turned it into NASCAR. Only the wealthy will own records.

What is done is done. You can't put a fart back, even if it really stinks.

So to make you happy, we should go back to the days of wool suits, no caps and no goggles? Take out the deep pools, high tech lane lines that cut down on waves and get rid of the starting blocks?

You say swimming didn't have a lot of gizmos and googahs before tech suits were invented...I say you are wrong.

Goggles are considered a far more radical invention than the high speed suits. Goggles have been credited for changing the sport in radical ways, from turns to length of training to how swimmers train and race. Guess we should get rid of those too.

[SwimStud]

So to make you happy, we should go back to the days of wool suits, no caps and no goggles?


Isn't that au naturelle for Wookiees? :D

[stillwater]

You say wimming didn't have a lot of gizmos and googahs before tech suits were invented

I looked at what I said. I never said that. I don't even know what wimming is.

But, thanks for the pedantic lecture on goggles.

Spend more money on your suit. You'll swim faster, that's what it's all about.

[swillwater]

You are buying speed.
You can't put a fart back, even if it really stinks.

If I'm buying speed, why bother to put the suit on at all? Just let it swim the race without my interference?

[thewookiee]

I looked at what I said. I never said that. I don't even know what wimming is.

But, thanks for the pedantic lecture on goggles.

Spend more money on your suit. You'll swim faster, that's what it's all about.

You may not have openly said it, but your statement definitly implied it. And your welcome for the lecture...glad to anytime.