It is here!

[jim thornton]

For all of you who know Leslie the Fortress Livingston, this should help you know her better.

For all of you who don't know Leslie the Fortress Livingston, prepare for the thrill ride get-to-know-Leslie event of the year.

A little background: Leslie is the 4th woman in history in the 45-49 year age group to beat 30 seconds in the 50 SCM butterfly.

She did this at age 47, and it is possible that she is actually the FIRST woman in history this old to break 30 at the age (assuming the previous 3 were 45 or 46.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsLlaHUT3ao

This small film will help you understand all that goes into becoming an extraordinary human being/swimmer. Oh, and there's a little about Leslie in this, too.

Just joking. It's all about Leslie. With some guest appearances by Paul Wolf, Julie "Mulie" Oplinger, Jeff "the Barbarian" Roddin, and Jim Thornton as "the narrator."

Please enjoy before Leslie forces Jim Matysek to take this down.

[The Fortress]

Lordy! I am too mortified to click on the link, Jim. I may be calling the other Jim in Mizzou speedy quick. I fear I am going to have to get a restraining order on that phone of yours.

[aquageek]

I'm raising a fine American beer to you, Fort!

[poolraat]

That was great!!

[pwbrundage]

Jim,

Wonderfully entertaining. Nice to meet you up at Rutgers, though I'm certainly going to steer clear of your videocamera if I run into you again.

Leslie,

You're a GREAT sportswoman and a great sport to put up with this!

[The Fortress]

You're a great sport to put up with this!

And I threatened to revoke his guest cottage privileges if any of this came to light ...

But, Jim, how could you leave off SwimStud in his wife beater tee? He even gave me a shoulder rub before the race.

[thewookiee]

This is absolutely AWESOME!! LMAO!!!

[quicksilver]

:applaud: To Mrs. Livingston


And what a great friend you have in Jim, to extend such a lovely gesture!

[scyfreestyler]

Great job, Leslie! And similarly, great job Jim!

[jim clemmons]

Great swim Fort and thanks for being part of Jim's production. Great entertainment - and I loved the hair! Fort's hair - not yours Jim. jk

A little superglue and you'd have to get yourself a cap.

[meldyck]

Jim,

I wanted to commend you on the first use of a 10-pixel camera. I was able to recognize all the participants and the stroke! Great job at interpolating data where there were none previously.

However, I had a question. At the end of the clip it refers to a production of the Thornton Twins. Are you no longer recognizing the remaining triplet in the group? If I remember correctly, his name is William Robert Thornton, and he has actually gone on to a successful career.

Leslie, I'm available for retribution duty if you need me. First job is free...

[jim thornton]

Mel and all you other very kindly fans of the Leslie Livingston homage, I just want to give credit here to my twin brother, John, who took my cell phone footage and combined this with an oversized piece of green cardboard in his livingroom to produce this film. Thanks, as well, to Mr. Robert Redford of Park City, Utah, for agreeing on such short notice to play the complex and challenging role of Mr. Jim Thornton, USMS member and enigma.

John has a number of other films about swimming and other subjects on his YouTube channel, RustyScupperton. Interested viewers may want to check out such classics as Handsome Like Me, Three Time Loser: The Jim Thornton story, and Captain's Plunge: Sea Isle Polar Bear '08 (http://www.youtube.com/my_favorites#)

Thanks for viewing, and please give Leslie a deserved round of applause for conquering her tiredness in such a dramatic way. Her time may or may not "count" for FINA's all-time Top 10 performances, but I am confident that the possibility of a Thornton Twins investigative documentary on FINA practices will be enough to make the powers that be reconsider any less than salubrious outcome here.

[Phillyfish]

Laurie DiTommaso, age 46, swam a :29.21 in the 50 meter fly at the Colonies SCM Zone Championship on December 6, 2008. :banana:

I don't have any really cool video or anything but I can tell you the smile on her face after her swim was wonderful to behold. I felt honored being there to witness her joy. It is just one of those moments you remember and confirms why you attend swim meets. These women - age 45-49 - are amazing!!!!

[The Fortress]

Leslie, I'm available for retribution duty if you need me. First job is free...

Thank you all. :blush:

Mel,

I'm already formulating revenge plans for the Albatross Meet in March, which may include theft of hallucinogens or getting "The Barbarian" to do some slight time alterations to Jim's meet results ... I'm quite evil myself, so I certainly won't let this pass!

Jim,

Cheryl would be turning over in her grave at the "Betty and Veronica" shot. She is waaaaay prettier than that! She may be hunting you down too. And, well, you may need to hire body guards to defend yourself against poor Hulk who's been in full on whine mode that he's been clubbed to death lately.


Phillyfish,

Laurie is awesome! She kicked my butt in the 100 IM! And she is definitely one of those woman that Jim included that have gone under :30 in the 50 fly. And the fastest one! I wish I had gotten a chance to race her on Saturday. It will be interesting to see what KPN does this weekend at NE Champs. I'm thinking she'll do a split request in her 100 fly.

[Syd]

Thornton, you're a nutter! That was highly entertaining! The wig was an inspired touch!

Fort, you're charming and have an engaging smile. What a great swim!

Paul Wolf is a BRUTE! Holy C*** What did your mother feed you on??? You can be on my side next time I get into a fight!

Julie looks cute and sweet!

Please can we have some more! Jim, you're a natural. How about a weekly insert: Jim TV.

Full marks for an excellent production!

[pwolf66]

Does anyone know what the exact ruling would be if someone in the vicinity of 250 pounds were to accidentally fall into the water while an event is being run? Say a Men's 55-59 event? And in doing so happened to impede the progress of one of the competitiors? Who's initials may or may not be JT?

Any experienced judges.....um referees out there?

[pwolf66]

And, well, you may need to hire body guards to defend yourself against poor Hulk who's been in full on whine mode that he's been clubbed to death lately.


Hmm, and this is being nice???? :rolleyes:

[elise526]

I've been trying all week to get my stroke to look like Leslie's. What an awesome swim! :cheerleader:

[thewookiee]

Hmm, and this is being nice???? :rolleyes:


Hey Wolf... they say the camera adds 10 pounds, looks like it was all in your biceps. Maybe if you decrease your muscle size, you might beat Fort in one of those gridge matches, since you wouldn't tie up at the 23.75 meter mark.

[mermaid]

wookie -
lmao

[knelson]

My favorite part is how Fort's actual swim is completely shoved to the background by the not so subtle zooming in on the bikini-clad hottie in the other half of the frame :)

[thewookiee]

My favorite part is how Fort's actual swim is completely shoved to the background by the not so subtle zooming in on the bikini-clad hottie in the other half of the frame :)


And there is a problem with that how?? :angel:

[knelson]

And there is a problem with that how?? :angel:

Hey, it's sure to boost the view count!

[SwimStud]

LOL that was a gas.

[ensignada]

OMG, Jim - that was inspired. :applaud:

[chaos]

congrats leslie good swim!

i subscribed to the jt's youtube acount........... funny stuff.

[james lucas]

Very excellent.

[Jayhawk]

While not a swimming hypochondriac, I have no problem coming up with excuses for my poor swims. Now I have a new one:

"I stayed up too late after the first night of the Mizzou Masters Meet because I got roped into watching the latest video by the Thornton Twins."

Anna Lea

[Allen Stark]

Great swim and great fun.

[ande]

nice
that's pretty funny

[swim4me]

Awsome Fort - that is what FAF is all about!:applaud:

[SwimRobin]

Congratulations on a great swim, Fort!

[ViveBene]

Congratulations, Fort!
A very impressive swim, smooth and strong - looks like you could have continued on to the moon! And your obvious pleasure at hearing your time - a sweet moment. :)

Nice video.

VB

[CreamPuff]

LOVED IT!

Jim, you look hot w/ that new 'do!

[gull]

My favorite part is how Fort's actual swim is completely shoved to the background by the not so subtle zooming in on the bikini-clad hottie in the other half of the frame :)

I would have liked more footage of the Blue70-clad hottie...

Great swim. I want to see a birth certificate.

[BillS]

My favorite part is how Fort's actual swim is completely shoved to the background by the not so subtle zooming in on the bikini-clad hottie in the other half of the frame :)

Worked for me. I thought of it as a divided attention exercise.

By the way, was there any footage of the actual swim in the video? I must have missed it . . .

[SwimStud]

Worked for me. I thought of it as a divided attention exercise.

By the way, was there any footage of the actual swim in the video? I must have missed it . . .

There is a link on Fort's blog on the 8th of Dec
http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=4677

[USMSarah]

:bliss: I love it! Fort is my hero!

The video is great... you gotta do more of them! Wow!

[pwolf66]

:bliss: I love it! Fort is my hero!

The video is great... you gotta do more of them! Wow!


You say that now but wait until YOU become the subject :afraid:

[The Fortress]

You say that now but wait until YOU become the subject :afraid:

Wolf Girl, Wolf Girl, Wolf Girl ... are you whining again?! Puh-lease, I was just told to check into a sanitarium! lol.

It should be noted that the be-wigged producer of this comical video is, himself, a speedy little dude. :applaud: Here's a pic from his recent foray into non-freestyle swimming. Doesn't he look happy?

[jim thornton]

Unlike my colleagues Leslie and Paul, whose respective infirmities are largely of the hysterical variety, my excuses are invariably 100 percent real. As Leslie's photo shows, a bout with Bell's Palsy back in the early 1990s has left its toll on me. What may look to the casual observer as a raffish sneer ("I laugh at exhaustion! Pain holds no terror for the likes of me!) is, in point of fact, a trace of residual facial paralysis from a once swollen 7th cranial nerve trapped in its bony tunnel from brain to face.

Imagine how good a swimmer I might have been were it not for the inability of my mouth corner to widen in perfect symmetry with its brother mouth corner, thus impeding oxygen flow to my body.

Even so, I laugh at exhaustion! Paul, Leslie: in this regard, I advise you both to look to the example of your infirm elder.

[smontanaro]

Great job, Leslie! And similarly, great job Jim!

I think those were two completely orthogonal axes of greatness. Congrats Leslie. As others have noted, should I ever encounter Jim with camera (or a brother) in tow (unlikely, but you never know), I will have to remember to walk the other way. ;)

[pwolf66]

Wolf Girl, Wolf Girl, Wolf Girl ... are you whining again?! Puh-lease, I was just told to check into a sanitarium! lol.


Actually I was just trying to say beware what you wish for. I was not the subject of that video, I just happened to be collateral damage :applaud:

As for whining? Guilty but not about the video, that was pretty dang funny. But I'm feeling in a pretty dang whiney mood right now. That creeping crud I had over Thanksgiving that I thought I had beaten? Nope, severe bronchitis now. Pretty sure 6 hours a day standing on a pool deck over the weekend didn't.

[CreamPuff]

I think those were two completely orthogonal axes of greatness. Congrats Leslie. As others have noted, should I ever encounter Jim with camera (or a brother) in tow (unlikely, but you never know), I will have to remember to walk the other way. ;)

I'm quite afraid that patrolman JazzHands will be along shortly handing out demerits for this incessant hero-worshiping.

[CreamPuff]

Wolf Girl, Wolf Girl, Wolf Girl ... are you whining again?! Puh-lease, I was just told to check into a sanitarium! lol.

It should be noted that the be-wigged producer of this comical video is, himself, a speedy little dude. :applaud: Here's a pic from his recent foray into non-freestyle swimming. Doesn't he look happy?

I hate to admit this, but I find it oddly attractive.

And where might I find these charming pink goggles?

[aquageek]

It's not like I can afford to take any more hits to my manliness but here goes - I've been wearing pink swedes for years, great in all light conditions. I'll let the cracks come as appropriate now.

[jaegermeister]

Leslie, great swim! Jim, keep the videos rolling. You guys are inspiring. This is enough to make me keep swimming for decades.

[BillS]

I found this somewhere:

Swim Hyponchondriasis: ( Hyperchondrical Disorder )

Unlike a conversion disorder where an individual perceives a functional disorder and simply use it to escape from uncomfortable situations, hypochondriacs have no real illness, but are overly obsessed over normal bodily functions. They read into the sensations of these normal bodily functions the presence of a feared disease. The main features of this disorders are:

Because of misinterpreting bodily symptoms, the patient becomes preoccupied with ideas or fears of swimming unnaturally slowly due to the illness.

Appropriate medical investigation, reassurance, and plain ol' common sense do not relieve these ideas.

These ideas are not delusional (as in Delusional Disorder) and are not restricted to concern about appearance (as in Body Dysmorphic Disorder), but are simply silly.

They cause distress that is neither clinically important nor impairs the achievement of Top 10 times.

They have lasted 6 months or longer. Some may last a lifetime (see Whiners).

The only known cure for this troublesome disorder is a video "outing" of the patient, exposing the disorder to the cold glare of day and the opprobrium of the swimmer's peers. Which sometimes works, but more often than not does not.

[jim thornton]

Bill, can you give me the citation so I can look up more than just the abstract of this critically important paper on Medline?

For what it's worth, there is some new experimental research being funded by the NIMH which suggests that a combination of the horse tranquilizer ketamine and pink-tinted goggles can substantially relieve symptoms by causing the patient to project hallucinations of his/her symptoms onto other people.

When these other people begin to believe these projections, alas, it can trigger Swim Hypochondriasis by Proxy of the Munchhausen Variety, with overtones of Folie a Dieu, which I am pretty sure means that god is laughing at you.

Thanks for the citation and your effort to drive Swim Hypochondriasis off these forums for good!

[SwimStud]

It's not like I can afford to take any more hits to my manliness but here goes - I've been wearing pink swedes for years, great in all light conditions. I'll let the cracks come as appropriate now.

HOW did I miss this?:bed:

[BillS]

Bill, can you give me the citation so I can look up more than just the abstract of this critically important paper on Medline?

For what it's worth, there is some new experimental research being funded by the NIMH which suggests that a combination of the horse tranquilizer ketamine and pink-tinted goggles can substantially relieve symptoms by causing the patient to project hallucinations of his/her symptoms onto other people.

When these other people begin to believe these projections, alas, it can trigger Swim Hypochondriasis by Proxy of the Munchhausen Variety, with overtones of Folie a Dieu, which I am pretty sure means that god is laughing at you.

Thanks for the citation and your effort to drive Swim Hypochondriasis off these forums for good!

Jim, after an all out, exhaustive, several minute effort to replicate my "research", I confess that I am unable to find even this abstract, much less the referenced study. I can only conclude that I, suffering from a projection caused by Proxy of the Jayson Blair/NY Times Variety, engaged in unintentional non-plagiarism. In other words, I totally made it up.

Damn peer review process.

[jaegermeister]

Swim Hyponchondriasis: ( Hyperchondrical Disorder )

Unlike a conversion disorder where an individual perceives a functional disorder and simply use it to escape from uncomfortable situations, hypochondriacs have no real illness, but are overly obsessed over normal bodily functions. They read into the sensations of these normal bodily functions the presence of a feared disease. The main features of this disorders are:

Because of misinterpreting bodily symptoms, the patient becomes preoccupied with ideas or fears of swimming unnaturally slowly due to the illness.

Appropriate medical investigation, reassurance, and plain ol' common sense do not relieve these ideas.

These ideas are not delusional (as in Delusional Disorder) and are not restricted to concern about appearance (as in Body Dysmorphic Disorder), but are simply silly.

They cause distress that is neither clinically important nor impairs the achievement of Top 10 times.

They have lasted 6 months or longer. Some may last a lifetime (see Whiners).

The only known cure for this troublesome disorder is a video "outing" of the patient, exposing the disorder to the cold glare of day and the opprobrium of the swimmer's peers. Which sometimes works, but more often than not does not.





LMAO!!!

[The Fortress]

Swim Hyponchondriasis: ( Hyperchondrical Disorder )

Unlike a conversion disorder where an individual perceives a functional disorder and simply use it to escape from uncomfortable situations, hypochondriacs have no real illness, but are overly obsessed over normal bodily functions. They read into the sensations of these normal bodily functions the presence of a feared disease. The main features of this disorders are:

Because of misinterpreting bodily symptoms, the patient becomes preoccupied with ideas or fears of swimming unnaturally slowly due to the illness.

Appropriate medical investigation, reassurance, and plain ol' common sense do not relieve these ideas.

These ideas are not delusional (as in Delusional Disorder) and are not restricted to concern about appearance (as in Body Dysmorphic Disorder), but are simply silly.

They cause distress that is neither clinically important nor impairs the achievement of Top 10 times.

They have lasted 6 months or longer. Some may last a lifetime (see Whiners).

The only known cure for this troublesome disorder is a video "outing" of the patient, exposing the disorder to the cold glare of day and the opprobrium of the swimmer's peers. Which sometimes works, but more often than not does not.





LMAO!!!

Bill,

Brilliant! FYI, here's the text of IMs exchanged between Jim and I on almost a daily basis the week before Zones:

Jim: "sick"

Fort: "not sick"

And Jim's video didn't even touch on his/our most favorite hypochondriatic topic: shoulders. That topic generates way more paranoia than mere fatigue.

[Allen Stark]

Bill,


And Jim's video didn't even touch on his/our most favorite hypochondriatic topic: shoulders. That topic generates way more paranoia than mere fatigue.

Obsessing about shoulders is normal behavior for Masters Swimmers.

[The Fortress]

Obsessing about shoulders is normal behavior for Masters Swimmers.

Excellent! I'm normal, but I'm not sure about Jim. Our last convo:

Jim: "shoulder hurts"

Leslie: "mine is fine"

Jim: "shoulder hurts from the brutality of Bill's sets"

Leslie: "do less yardage and lift weights"

Jim: "but brutality brings out the best in me"

Leslie: "but brutality hurts your shoulder"

Jim: "shoulder hurts"

Leslie: "do your rotator cuff exercises"

Jim: "I don't go to the gym."

Leslie: "you should"

Jim: "shoulder hurts"

Leslie: ttyl

[islandsox]

Jim, this was a great video you provided and such a tribute to Leslie, I thoroughly enjoyed it, as well as photos of some here I haven't had the opportunity to meet.

World Records are evasive to many of us, so my congrats to Leslie! Huge accomplishment.

Hey, Jim, maybe wearing all those medals is another reason you are "sick"; too much metal via absorption! Had you thought of that one? HA!

I think Leslie should consider the Mount Everest in the future: the, uh, 200 fly?

Donna

[Mary1912]

Fantastic job Fort! Congratulations!! :applaud:

[That Guy]

I think Leslie should consider the Mount Everest in the future: the, uh, 200 fly?

Yeah! :cheerleader::cheerleader:

[Jayhawk]

Hey, Jim, maybe wearing all those medals is another reason you are "sick"; too much metal via absorption! Had you thought of that one? HA!

:rofl:

[jim thornton]

I think USMS gets its medals from China. Are there any lawyers out there? Do you think I could get some kind of settlement, at least have my chelation therapy paid for, maybe just a million or so in mad money for punitive damages?

Thanks, Donna. I think you're on to something!

[Allen Stark]

I just learned that this swim was disallowed.:censor::censor::censor:It wasn't allowed because it was a "time trial."Since it was agreed upon by the meet director and head referee,this seems nonsensical and unfair.
In 2003 at the SCM meet at ASU they measured the pool after the Sat. events and found the bulkhead had slipped so that some lanes were up to 1-2 cm short.As all those times would not count for TT they allowed the affected swimmers to swim time trials.For me at least a time trial is not the same as racing against someone and I swam .4 sec slower.The Sat. time would have been a ZR,but at least the time trial time counted for TT.Several swimmers at that meet also swam time trials.USA-S swimmers are routinely given time trials to make cuts.Several WRs have been set at time trials.Write your congressperson,sic Geek or Thorton on them.This wrong must be righted!!!!!

[jim thornton]

I agree with Allen. This indignity should not be allowed to stand!

For those of you who have not yet discovered the world of USMS blogs, I urge you to read Leslie's description of her travails on the blog The FAF AFAP Digest (http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=4677) and today's specific entry entitled "extremely unhappy." (http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=4677)

If you would like more info in a visually pleasing format, I similarly invite you to watch my own langorous Vlog, entitled Vlog the Inhaler, or The Occasional Video Blog... (http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?u=26)

Today's entry, which expresses outrage at Leslie's fate, has the understated title of Travesty of Travesties.

On an unrelated note, pictures for the USMS Cheesecake Calendar have been pouring in, though not at the kind of rate that should discourage further offerings. So far, if we use pictures of me, Leslie, and Geek, we have January and February covered.

For more on this, please visit the thread entitled USMS Cheesecake Calendar if it hasn't already been taken down.

[The Fortress]

Uh, thanks Jim, I think. I'm in the process of letter writing. We'll see what happens. Rule 202.2 looks promising.

[smontanaro]

Leslie, we're pulling for you...

[imspoiled]

Wan't the IGLA a USMS samctioned or recognized meet? If so, your top ten recorder should submit the times to USMS for top ten consideration. I understand that FINA may not have given the meet a sanction (although I've no idea why), but if USMS did, why are those results not being counted?

As for the Rutgers situation, I don't know what to say. Is my former coach on the Rules Committee? This sounds like some of his strange backwards logic at work.

All rules should be applied in consideration of fairness for all competitors. In that regard, is your time trial unfair? I would say no, especially if there is no clear cut rule prohibiting time trials. When I trained to become a stroke & turn official, the #1 rule of thumb we learned was that the benefit of the doubt went to the swimmer unless we were 100% certain of the infraction. One might suggest that the Rules Committee use the same principle to govern situations where there is ambiguity in the interpretation of the rules.

[Leonard Jansen]

Jihad! Jihad! Jihad!

-lbj

[swimmieAvsFan]

Wan't the IGLA a USMS samctioned or recognized meet?

it was a sanctioned meet.

If so, your top ten recorder should submit the times to USMS for top ten consideration.

the times will be submitted to USMS (as the meet was a USMS sanctioned meet). i actually think they have already been submitted...

I understand that FINA may not have given the meet a sanction (although I've no idea why), but if USMS did, why are those results not being counted?

FINA does not grant sanctions, they delegate that to the NGBs in each country. again, USMS did sanction the meet.

no one i've talked to seems to know exactly why FINA is not accepting the times, and as far as i know, USMS is still working to get the times accepted...

EDIT: it turns out FINA finally did the right thing and decided to accept the times from the IGLA meet!

[jroddin]

Several posters have expressed disappointment that USMS does not accept Time Trials (contrasted with rumors where other Time Trials whose times were accepted). I’ve already gone over this with Fort, but I’m writing to clarify for others (I tried to post on a blog but my post mysteriously disappeared...). Time Trials (TTs) are indeed permitted – as long as they are sanctioned. The problem at Rutgers, unfortunately, was the TT was not sanctioned nor was it part of the meet. Fort was given bad advice from the referee and meet director when she requested the TT. They granted her request not realizing the time would not be eligible for USMS Top Ten/records. Without a sanction, her swim was basically no different in the eyes of USMS than a swim in practice where your coach gets your time. Similarly, if Paul Smith steps on the blocks in practice with 3 timers and breaks a John Smith record (or vice versa), the time cannot be submitted for a record. It’s a shame what happened at Rutgers for Fort because she did nothing wrong , but I thought I’d clear the air that USMS did not deny her time simply because it was a TT – they denied it because the swim was not sanctioned (nor was it part of the meet – the entry form needed to include the option to do a time trial in order for it to be included with the meet).

I hope her appeal is successful but there you have the background for when TTs “count” and when they don’t. Lastly, I’m not on the USMS Rules Committee (thankfully!) so this is just my own personal interpretation of the relevant sections of the rulebook.

:dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse:

Jeff

[jim thornton]

Thanks, Jeff, for a very well-explained reply. I, too, hope Leslie's appeal goes through, having seen her talk to the officials, get their approval, then watched the swim itself, witnessed the 29.99 appear on the score board from the electronic timing apparatus, and documented all of the above on my cell phone video camera!

I am sure Leslie can go faster than this, and will do so in the near future, but I feel for her frustration at doing such a great swim, in a measured pool, with electronic timing system all set up, being watched by officials, etc.

Does a tree falling in forest when nobody's around make a sound?

Does a Fortress who swims under 30 seconds in the 50 SCM Fly really do this if it's not sanctioned?

Yes. Yes. I think we can all hear the sound of one hand clapping for this remarkable accomplishment!

[The Fortress]

Well, the grounds for denial are actually in a private email and don't say exactly what Jeff stated. And, as Jeff said, that's just his own personal interpretation of the rules and his wording does not actually appear verbatim in the rules. A certain implicit understood pattern and practice is not necessarily tantamount to an explicit rule. It is my personal opinion, and am likewise entitled to have one despite not being a USMS admin, that the rules are inapplicable and/or very ambiguous and definitely not uniformly or fairly applied. My own lawyer, Mr. Fort, who has many years of litigation experience and does not look at the rules through a swimmers perspective or experience, agrees. So I do not believe I am totally off base here, despite the above post being somewhat officious. Sometimes, one can be so used to thinking the rules say X or interpreting them a certain way to say X, but when you actually read them they don't in fact say X.

And it's like a "swim in practice?" Uh, NOT. If that's how it's viewed, and I don't dispute that the view "exists," I think the camera needs to be re-focused.

I have filed a letter of appeal, seeking recognition under Rule 202.2, and think the whole matter should just be dropped on the forum. The letter is on my blog if anyone feels the need to criticize it there. Or do as you wish. I'm tired of it all, but feel that a person should have a right to appeal. Unfortunately, some seem to think this is an ill-advised dragging my name through the mud idea. If so, so be it. However, that very notion seems ridiculous to me. I am to be pilloried for having the nerve to question the rules? Doesn't seem right to me ...

Perhaps, as some feel, it is simply safer to swim in USS meets. Not nearly as fun, but not nearly as many masters times thrown out for various reasons either.

[pwolf66]

(nor was it part of the meet – the entry form needed to include the option to do a time trial in order for it to be included with the meet).

Interesting statement. So the basis for obtaining official status is that it needs to be listed on the official meet entry form?

And can I get the exact rule number that covers this situation? I have looked thru the USMS rulebook now three times cover to cover in the last 24 hours and can not find where this swim is CLEARLY disallowed. Since you are convinced it is, could you please quote the relevant sections so I can see if I am missing something?

[Chris Stevenson]

Perhaps, as some feel, it is simply safer to swim in USS meets. Not nearly as fun, but not nearly as many masters times thrown out for various reasons either.

Well, they bring their own headaches. Their pool measurements rules are less strict than ours. The times don't count for FINA either. And getting them submitted for USMS TT is a little more of a hassle.

[CreamPuff]

So after reading Leslie's account and experiencing my own issues and other swimmer friends' issues with swims not counting, my biggest concern (and the recurring theme) :dedhorse::dedhorse::dedhorse: as a masters swimmer is swimmers' times being thrown out b/c officials, referees, and meet directors don't know the rules.

Do people want to spend upwards of $1K to $2K+ to do a travel meet where USMS swims may or may not count? And whether or not the swims count will be determined in the future by the USMS Top 10 committee in which I as a swimmer will not be notified if the times do not count.

How big a problem is this? When the 2006 Auburn meet results were thrown out in 2006, it appears that about 1,000 swims were discounted due to the pool not being measured. 1,000 swims seems like quite a few swims in just one meet . . .

[The Fortress]

Well, they bring their own headaches. Their pool measurements rules are less strict than ours. The times don't count for FINA either. And getting them submitted for USMS TT is a little more of a hassle.

My understanding is that USS times do count for FINA if the meet is dual sanctioned. More and more USS long course meets are dual sanctioned now. And SCY meets are obviously irrelevant for FINA purposes.

[SwimStud]

Oh for crying out loud it's Masters Swimming not the Olympics. Leslie stands to gain a big fat nothing from this aside from personal satisfaction.

It's like me seriously thinking I am the fastest guy in my agegroup for the 200 BR at Zones. Sure I won because nobody else swam, but do I really think that nobody my age there could beat me?

Same for 50 FL top ten... enjoy it, but Leslie is faster than anyone who went over 29.99. We have video proof--and the pool was sanctioned.

[CreamPuff]

[QUOTE=SwimStud;165474]

It's like me seriously thinking I am the fastest guy in my agegroup for the 200 BR at Zones. Sure I won because nobody else swam, but do I really think that nobody my age there could beat me?
/QUOTE]

LOL I checked the database and I see I placed 3rd and 4th several times for a meet I didn't even show up to! (Was sick)

[Paul Smith]

My understanding is that USS times do count for FINA if the meet is dual sanctioned. More and more USS long course meets are dual sanctioned now. And SCY meets are obviously irrelevant for FINA purposes.

I simply don't undertand why we need to make things harder than they have to be. How much friggin work would it be...or should I say "checking of ego's" to get USMS & USA Swimming at least a bit more on the same page. Now FINA I can understand...I won't even try and go there but come on folks?

As much as certain folks withing USMS want to claim that we're primarilly a fitness organization the bottom line is we are still hosting meets...I don't see a lot of fitness swimmers spending thousands a year on travel, entries, suits, etc. We still are an organization that has a significant and very active/vocal group of members who are racing and utilizing timers, time standards for TT's, WR's, top 10's, etc...streamline and simplify the process will ya...no excuse for someone entering a meet and doing a swim like this and not being recognized.

[jroddin]

Fortress wrote:My own lawyer, Mr. Fort, who has many years of litigation experience and does not look at the rules through a swimmers perspective or experience, agrees.

Good to know Fort found an unbiased lawyer to give an opinion :D

Hulk wrote:And can I get the exact rule number that covers this situation? I have looked thru the USMS rulebook now three times cover to cover in the last 24 hours and can not find where this swim is CLEARLY disallowed. Since you are convinced it is, could you please quote the relevant sections so I can see if I am missing something?

It's not so much to find in the rulebook where it disallows the swim. It's actually the converse: the rulebook defines what is an eligible swim - it does not list all the swims that don't count. Here is one last try at a more direct explanation of my own interpretation of the rulebook: in order for a swim to "count" it must be from a sanctioned/recognized event. Period. The rulebook goes on to explain what constitutes a sanctioned/recognized swim. The time trial was not done in a meet (the zone meet announcement did not include a 50 fly at the end of the meet) and therefore does not meet the definition of an eligible swim.

Again, I think the swim was legit and it's not like she cheated, but if you're asking the Rules Committee to evaluate the swim based on the rules, well, then guess what they'll do...

Perhaps, as some feel, it is simply safer to swim in USS meets. Not nearly as fun, but not nearly as many masters times thrown out for various reasons either.
Or maybe it is safer to swim 50 fly's during the meet...:bolt:

[Blackbeard's Peg]

Guys and gals, we're never going to understand all the rules completely, and like most rules/laws, they are subject to interpretation. There's a lot of mumbo jumbo in there - and in what is being questioned here, there are a lot of references to a lot of other rules. You miss one article bullet point, misread a word or leave out a word, and things change quickly!

Fort swam what in my interpretation of the situation and rules amounts to an exhibition swim. For every rules-based argument I can come up with for officializing the swim, I can also come up with one against. I've said before, I'd love to see her get the full credit for it, and again, it is unfortunate what she has to go through, so that future generations of time trial-ers will not have to do the same.

What is most unfortunate is this could all have been avoided by Fort actually swimming the 100 fly on Sunday... and getting her 50 split like she had originally intended.

[The Fortress]

Here is one last try at a more direct explanation of my own interpretation of the rulebook: in order for a swim to "count" it must be from a sanctioned/recognized event. Period.

Here is one last try at a more direct explanation of my appeal. I am seeking a sanction/recognition under Rule 202.2. Or do you already know that the Rules Committee will reject the appeal on that basis as well?

As for swimming a real 50 fly in a meet, c'mon guys. You know I swim it in plenty of meets, although not much in SCM. I could not attend the meet on Saturday because I was watching my kid swim in an important meet. As for the 100 fly, I'm an old sprinter and need recovery time. I didn't have it. No regrets about scratching it. I wouldn't have swum fast. YOU go swim on minimal rest; I choose not to.

And it is my understanding that time trials were done at the Ron John meet, the Long Beach meet and at the NE Champs. Don't know the circumstances of them; pehaps they met your interpretation the rules.

[jroddin]

I was trying to be funny about swimming it in the meet. I've already heard why you couldn't at Zones. It was a joke... Also, I don't know anything about the other meets nor is it any of my business.

Here is one last try at a more direct explanation of my appeal. I am seeking a sanction/recognition under Rule 202.2. Or do you already know that the Rules Committee will reject the appeal on that basis as well?
No, of course I don't know how they are going to rule. I have no involvement in this. In fact, I had zero involvement in it until you PM'd me and asked me to get involved!

Below is the 202.2 rule you cited:

202.2 RECOGNIZED EVENTS
Times achieved at recognized events shall be considered for USMS national records and Top 10 times if a designated USMS observer is present and verifies in writing that the conduct of the competition conforms to the relevant USMS swimming rules and administrative regulations. USMS membership is not required for swimmers entered in recognized events. Times achieved by USMS members at events sanctioned by USA Swimming shall be considered for USMS National records and Top 10 times without formal application for recognition. Times achieved by USMS members at events sanctioned by a FINA member federation shall be considered for USMS National records and Top 10 times without formal application for recognition if the USMS member(s) register for the meet as USMS members. It is the responsibility of the swimmer to submit times obtained in recognized events with complete documentation to the appropriate LSMC (sic) Top 10 recorder and the Records and Tabulation Committee chair.

My understanding: the first underlined sentence explains that recognized events are eligible. The second underlined sentence is a definition of what would constitute a recognized event. Note the words "sanctioned" and "meet" as qualifiers. The TT was not part of a "meet."

I hope you win the appeal and prove all this wrong. I'm simply having a good time playing devil's advocate and I look forward to hearing the response from USMS.

[The Fortress]

I was trying to be funny about swimming it in the meet. I've already heard why you couldn't at Zones. It was a joke... Also, I don't know anything about the other meets nor is it any of my business.


No, of course I don't know how they are going to rule. I have no involvement in this. In fact, I had zero involvement in it until you PM'd me and asked me to get involved!

Below is the 202.2 rule you cited:

202.2 RECOGNIZED EVENTS
Times achieved at recognized events shall be considered for USMS national records and Top 10 times if a designated USMS observer is present and verifies in writing that the conduct of the competition conforms to the relevant USMS swimming rules and administrative regulations. USMS membership is not required for swimmers entered in recognized events. Times achieved by USMS members at events sanctioned by USA Swimming shall be considered for USMS National records and Top 10 times without formal application for recognition. Times achieved by USMS members at events sanctioned by a FINA member federation shall be considered for USMS National records and Top 10 times without formal application for recognition if the USMS member(s) register for the meet as USMS members. It is the responsibility of the swimmer to submit times obtained in recognized events with complete documentation to the appropriate LSMC (sic) Top 10 recorder and the Records and Tabulation Committee chair.

My understanding: the first underlined sentence explains that recognized events are eligible. The second underlined sentence is a definition of what would constitute a recognized event. Note the words "sanctioned" and "meet" as qualifiers. The TT was not part of a "meet."

I hope you win the appeal and prove all this wrong. I'm simply having a good time playing devil's advocate and I look forward to hearing the response from USMS.

My understanding is that the 50 fly can also be sanctioned separately as a "meet," you little devil.

[jroddin]

My understanding is that the 50 fly can also be sanctioned separately as a "meet," you little devil.

Precisely! As long as you can get it sanctioned you are home free, simple as that. I don't know why it took so long for us to agree on that point.:applaud:

[ourswimmer]

And it is my understanding that time trials were done at the Ron John meet, the Long Beach meet and at the NE Champs. Don't know the circumstances of them; pehaps they met your interpretation the rules.

I was at all three days of the Long Beach meet and I didn't see any individual time trials. The meet ran from morning until after dark all three days; they wouldn't have had time for individual swims in addition to all the heats. Several people did do official splits that resulted in national or world records, and I think the results label those as "time trials," but they weren't time trials in the same sense that yours was.

(This is not to express any opinion at all about whether or not USMS should recognize your fantastic 50 fly.)

[The Fortress]

Several people did do official splits that resulted in national or world records, and I think the results label those as "time trials."

That's probably what the person who told me that saw then.

Glad we agree on one thing, Jeff. Whew. And I wasn't asking you to get involved in the process, I was asking for your opinion cuz I know you know stuff. I never promised to agree or to forego an appeal based on it. (Some people are stoic and suffer in silence; others get pissed and try to do something about it. Neither type is really wrong.) Of course, we can still continue to disagree on whether the rules need to be clarified if you want. :angel: Since very few people seem even to know the rules, including the officials, and they are rather ambiguous and open to different interpretations, it seems a rational and prudent course. Otherwise, swimmers could continue to be penalized.

[jim thornton]

I think there is one thing that everyone on these forums can agree unanimously on:

"Little devil" is the perfect nickname for our beloved Jeffrey "little devil" Roddin, completely supplanting his former soubriquet, Jeffrey "hot" Roddin.

All opposed?

All in favor?

The motion to designate Jeff Roddin as a little devil in perpetuity carries.

[Chris Stevenson]

Several people did do official splits that resulted in national or world records, and I think the results label those as "time trials," but they weren't time trials in the same sense that yours was.

When people do split requests in meets for which I submit the results, the way I get them to "count" in Current Event Rankings is to add them as time-trials to the MM file before submitting it. Probably the same thing was done at the LB meet.

[The Fortress]

Well, they bring their own headaches. Their pool measurements rules are less strict than ours. The times don't count for FINA either. And getting them submitted for USMS TT is a little more of a hassle.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19887.asp?q=Karlyn%20Pipes-Neilsen,%20David%20Guthrie%20Set%20Records%20in%20 Oklahoma%20City

[Frank Thompson]

[QUOTE=jroddin;165512]

It's not so much to find in the rulebook where it disallows the swim. It's actually the converse: the rulebook defines what is an eligible swim - it does not list all the swims that don't count. Here is one last try at a more direct explanation of my own interpretation of the rulebook: in order for a swim to "count" it must be from a sanctioned/recognized event. Period. The rulebook goes on to explain what constitutes a sanctioned/recognized swim. The time trial was not done in a meet (the zone meet announcement did not include a 50 fly at the end of the meet) and therefore does not meet the definition of an eligible swim.

Jeff:

I found the section in the 2008 USMS Rulebook on page 8 under 102.10.1 in A where it reads:

"All short course meter events, long course meter events and national championships shall be conducted on a timed-final basis. Other short course yards events may be conducted on a timed-final basis or other basis e.g., trials/finals).

To me this means that time trials are not permitted in USMS short course meters and USMS long course meter sanctioned meets. However, in short course yards they can be permitted as long as the events in the time trials are sanctioned by the LMSC for the meet host in the application for Sanction.

This rule comes from the FINA Rule Book in MSW in 3.4 where it reads "All Masters events shall be conducted on a timed final basis." Again this to me means that events are swam in the sanctioned meet as final swims and they are reflected in the results as such. There is no mention of time trials in the FINA Rule book because they don't allow it and every event is a timed final from the meet events approved for sanction in the meet flyer and program.

FINA does allow time trials for Swimming and not for Masters and this is spelled out in the FINA Rule Book in SW 12.4 and it states that a competition of an individual against time, held in public and announced publicly by advertisement at least three days before the attempt is to be made. In an event of an individual race against time being sanctioned by a Member, as a time trial during a competition, then an advertisement at least three (3) days before the attempt is to be made shall not be necessary.

The key is that it MUST be sanctioned by a Member for it to count and if not it must be advertised at least 3 days prior to the trial. So for purposes of FINA, even for Swimming, a time trial granted in this fashion would not count as an official time for records and top ten.

[quicksilver]

*ahem* What's this?



"Karlyn would not be denied, however; she time-trialed the event, finishing in 4:34.65, well under her USMS record of 4:38.27 from 2007."

double standard? (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19887.asp?q=Karlyn%20Pipes-Neilsen,%20David%20Guthrie%20Set%20Records%20in%20 Oklahoma%20City%5B/quote%5D)

[Paul Smith]

A bit off topic...but thought I'd pass along another age group meet loving masters swimmer (Dennis Baker) just went 4:37.6 in the 500 free and 1:50.7 at a kids meet in Oregon...not sure if it was sanctioned for USMS or that he cares all that much.

[jim thornton]

What is his age group? That's amazing.

[The Fortress]

*ahem* What's this?



"Karlyn would not be denied, however; she time-trialed the event, finishing in 4:34.65, well under her USMS record of 4:38.27 from 2007."

double standard? (http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/19887.asp?q=Karlyn%20Pipes-Neilsen,%20David%20Guthrie%20Set%20Records%20in%20 Oklahoma%20City%5B/quote%5D)


Wasn't it in yards at a USS meet? I'm sure, unlike me, she knows her stuff.

But, as to the double standard issue, I have heard gossip, and it's just gossip, that this kind of stuff is permitted all the time depending on who you know. Not surprising really, that just mimics life.

Awesome swim by Dennis Baker! He probably doesn't care, as he's in his own league and swims a lot of USS meets. However, most masters swimmers seem fairly psycho about their times.

No time trials in SCM and LCM, Frank?! You're the first person I've heard mention this angle. But I guess you could say that a time trial is a timed final event.

[pwbrundage]

A bit off topic...but thought I'd pass along another age group meet loving masters swimmer (Dennis Baker) just went 4:37.6 in the 500 free and 1:50.7 at a kids meet in Oregon...not sure if it was sanctioned for USMS or that he cares all that much.

Holy crap. I guess I have to adjust my goals for the SCY season. I was aiming to get under 4:40, thinking that would be darn respectable, but now I have to ratchet that down even further. WOW!

[Frank Thompson]

quicksilver:

Are you talking about a split from a longer race or a time trial? Remember what Ourswimmer and Chris Stevenson said about how results are submitted as trials to reflect a swim breaking a record from a split and not from the actual event.

The time trials I am talking about are for swimmers at the end of the meet swimming events in a time trial format. I do not believe that was done at either Long Beach or the New England Championships and if it was done than none of the times should count because it was not in the original sanction grant from the LMSC. When the meet flyer gets posted with the Sanction Number and the schedule of events are swam according to the schedule for the two day meet, those times would be the only ones acceptable as part of the Sanction competition.

If there was a time trials section that was sanctioned in the original sanction packet that the meet host signs with the LMSC then that is permissible but only for short course yards meets and that is probably because of the FINA rule where they forbid time trials in master meets under there jurisdiction. For short course yards, they don't care about it and the NGB, which in this case is USMS can accept time trial swims just like USA Swimming does, ONLY if certain stipulations are meet in the USMS Rules, namely it must be part of the original sanction.

[quicksilver]

Wasn't it in yards at a USS meet?

No time trials in SCM and LCM, Frank?!


Yards. As per Frank this makes a difference.
Wonder why?




Frank: I just read the article which Swimming World published.
It seems to conflict with the way Leslie's time was denied from the rankings.

[The Fortress]

quicksilver:

Are you talking about a split from a longer race or a time trial? Remember what Ourswimmer and Chris Stevenson said about how results are submitted as trials to reflect a swim breaking a record from a split and not from the actual event.

The time trials I am talking about are for swimmers at the end of the meet swimming events in a time trial format. I do not believe that was done at either Long Beach or the New England Championships and if it was done than none of the times should count because it was not in the original sanction grant from the LMSC. When the meet flyer gets posted with the Sanction Number and the schedule of events are swam according to a the schedule for the two meet, those times would be the only ones acceptable as part of the Sanction competition.

If there was a time trials section that was sanctioned in the original sanction packet that the meet host signs with the LMSC then that is permissible but only for short course yards meets and that is probably because of the FINA rule where they forbid time trials in master meets under there jurisdiction. For short course yards, they don't care about it and the NGB, which in this case is USMS can accept time trial swims just like USA Swimming does, ONLY if certain stipulations are meet in the USMS Rules, namely it must be part of the original sanction.

I thought the meet director and referee had authority to add time trials if they made a general announcement to that effect and made them available to all? Even if it wasn't on the original order of events/sanction? This has been done before.

Why can't a time trial be construed as a timed final event, Frank?

[Paul Smith]

What is his age group? That's amazing.

He's 47...and he likes to pick on 13 & 15 year olds like Creampuff:

A - Final
1 Baker, Dennis G 47 UN-OR 4:44.24 4:37.68 20
26.07 54.03 1:21.99 1:49.95 2:18.31 2:46.68 3:14.70 3:42.75
4:10.56 4:37.68
2 Hughes, Bryan A 13 PLS-PC 4:41.96 4:38.70 17
25.72 53.36 1:21.58 1:49.87 2:18.36 2:46.66 3:14.98 3:43.29
4:11.43 4:38.70
3 Seitz, Andrew W 15 PLS-PC 4:38.46 4:40.78 16
25.72 53.02 1:20.85 1:48.99 2:17.40 2:46.07 3:15.07 3:43.84
4:12.53 4:40.78

[Glider]

Frank: I just read the article which Swimming World published.
It seems to conflict with the way Leslie's time was denied from the rankings.

There is the possibility that this USAS meet had sanctioned time trials.

I swam in the GA Sr State Champs last week (USAS), and the meet information packet expressly stated there would be time trials and that they were sanctioned.

You'd have to check the entry packet for the meet that Karlyn swam in.

[Frank Thompson]

Fortress:

We had a discussion about this about 7 years ago. When USMS went to new software in January 2002, you could not get to the old forums where this was a hot topic.

If I remember correctly, swimmers were asking the meet referee, officials, and the meet director if they could swim a time trial for a selected event after the meet. Some of these swimmers went faster than they did in the individual events in the meet and there were complaints about this from swimmers in the meet because they had actually swam the events and were not given special treatment of "time trial" swims for records and top ten purposes.

From my recollections these swims were not permitted for top ten or record purposes because they were not in the original official sanction and that any agreement to add to this sanction after the meet started was "after the fact" and should not be part of the meet.

It was also pointed out that any Referee or Official at the meet making any kind of decision about adding events to a sanction did not have authority to do this and this is an administrative function or "dry" side of the meet and that they are only there to enforce the "wet" side of the meet, meaning any technical rules of swimming. The LMSC issues the Official Sanction thru the LMSC Sanction Chair to the Meet Host and Meet Director usually signs for the Meet Host the Sanction agreement and once its signed cannot be changed, altered, or transferred.

The Meet Director does not have the authority to alter the sanction once the meet starts and is only at liberty to do so if he reapplies for a sanction with the LMSC. This to me makes sense because during the meet you could have all sorts of swimmers wanting to change, add, and delete events. So this puts some kind of control and order for the meet to be conducted in an organized competition.

A time trial to me cannot be construed as a timed final because it was not defined as a timed final event in the original schedule of events in the Official Sanction. A timed final event is the events that are on the schedule of the flyer, swam in the heats, and timed and put in the official results as timed final swims for that particular numbered event.

[Paul Smith]

I'll say it again...I would really hope that at some point USMS & USA Swimming can work towards finding more common ground. I'd love to see more meets that are coordinated and promoted (in both directions) from the two organizations. Just as we have USMS swimmers who don't always have free time when meets are run I have to believe there are USA teams that would like an occasional oppurtunity to have their "senior" (18+) athletes get an addtional meet in...but we have to streamline the rules and find a way to better integrate the data...

We talk often about growth on this forum and to take a quote from the buisness world "the best customer's are the ones you already have". In other words we already have a system in place that age group/high school/college swimmers "understand" and could fit easilly into...if we can do a better job of letting them know who we are.

[The Fortress]

Fortress:

We had a discussion about this about 7 years ago. When USMS went to new software in January 2002, you could not get to the old forums where this was a hot topic.

If I remember correctly, swimmers were asking the meet referee, officials, and the meet director if they could swim a time trial for a selected event after the meet. Some of these swimmers went faster than they did in the individual events in the meet and there were complaints about this from swimmers in the meet because they had actually swam the events and were not given special treatment of "time trial" swims for records and top ten purposes.

From my recollections these swims were not permitted for top ten or record purposes because they were not in the original official sanction and that any agreement to add to this sanction after the meet started was "after the fact" and should not be part of the meet.

It was also pointed out that any Referee or Official at the meet making any kind of decision about adding events to a sanction did not have authority to do this and this is an administrative function or "dry" side of the meet and that they are only there to enforce the "wet" side of the meet, meaning any technical rules of swimming. The LMSC issues the Official Sanction thru the LMSC Sanction Chair to the Meet Host and Meet Director usually signs for the Meet Host the Sanction agreement and once its signed cannot be changed, altered, or transferred.

The Meet Director does not have the authority to alter the sanction once the meet starts and is only at liberty to do so if he reapplies for a sanction with the LMSC. This to me makes sense because during the meet you could have all sorts of swimmers wanting to change, add, and delete events. So this puts some kind of control and order for the meet to be conducted in an organized competition.

A time trial to me cannot be construed as a timed final because it was not defined as a timed final event in the original schedule of events in the Official Sanction. A timed final event is the events that are on the schedule of the flyer, swam in the heats, and timed and put in the official results as timed final swims for that particular numbered event.

Thanks Frank. Wow, that's interesting. Seems like I've heard quite a lot, including from Jeff, that if the meet director/referee announces the time trial at the beginning of the day and opens it to all, the time counts. This "announcment" point was also one of the reasons my time was initially disallowed.

Perhaps more meet directors should consider putting a time trial slot on the order of events for their meet, if they think it won't run too long. (Rutgers was done around 1:00 or so.) USS swimming seems far ahead of us in some respects. This would certainly help people who have order of event issues.

Paul, there were quite a few masters swimmers in the dual sanctioned yards meet I swam in in NC. First time I had ever seen that, really.

[quicksilver]

This to me makes sense because during the meet you could have all sorts of swimmers wanting to change, add, and delete events. So this puts some kind of control and order for the meet to be conducted in an organized competition.



Makes sense.
A competitor could miss their rival's time by a fraction, and try to better it by asking for a time trial.

Like a do-over.

There must be a place to refer to in the rule book. Or maybe not.
Apparently language stating otherwise seems a little vague.

[jim thornton]

He's 47...and he likes to pick on 13 & 15 year olds like Creampuff.

On? or Up?

Seriously, though, I am not sure which is more impressive--a 47 year old who can swim this fast, or a 13 year old boy. It would be interesting to see what the bell curve of swimming records is. I assume that Dennis must be close to the world record with that 500. I wonder what the world record is for the 13-14 and 11-12 age groups. Maybe someday masters swimming could compete in kids swimming meets with our respective cohorts competing on a level playing field--i.e., guys in the Paul Smith Dennis Baker age groups doing battle with the 13 and 14 year olds, while guys like me, in the 55-59 year age group, get to contend with the 8 and unders!

I look forward to the day when I am old enough to compete against fetuses. That might be a little unfair, though, given how ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, providing the little devils (apologies to Jeff Roddin here) with the advantage of gills. Then again, they are likely to get tangled up in the umbilicus, especially in relays.

All in all, it balances out.

Congratulations to Dennis. I am sure you were one blistering fetus in your day!

[The Fortress]

[quote=quicksilver;165575]Makes sense. A competitor could miss their rival's time by a fraction, and try to better it by asking for a time trial. Like a do-over. [quote]

They can already do that with split requests. They could swim the 50 free, for example, 5-6 times during a meet. Perfectly legal.

[Chris Stevenson]

I look forward to the day when I am old enough to compete against fetuses. That might be a little unfair, though, given how ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny, providing the little devils (apologies to Jeff Roddin here) with the advantage of gills. Then again, they are likely to get tangled up in the umbilicus, especially in relays.

Jim, you are one strange dude. As if we needed reminding.

(I was also amazed at the 13-yo going 4:38. Sheesh.)

[Frank Thompson]

Yards. As per Frank this makes a difference.
Wonder why?




Frank: I just read the article which Swimming World published.
It seems to conflict with the way Leslie's time was denied from the rankings.

The article in Swimming World said that KPN set a record in the 400 IM during the a time trials section of the meet. That was perfectly legal because it was part of the sanction process that is stated here:

http://www.teamunify.com/czokslsc/__eventform__/18221_17thCHKEliteProAm2008MeetInfo.pdf

Notice the sanction # on the entry form for the approved and sanctioned time trial. This does not exist in the Colony Zone entry form and there is nothing mentioned about a sanctioned time trial after the meet. That is the difference and that is one of the reasons why the time was denied from the meet results and for top ten rankings.

The other is that, again, until someone proves otherwise, FINA does not allow time trials for any masters competitions and explicitly states that in FINA Rule MSW 3.4 and USMS follows that rule in there rulebook under 102.10.1 A

Time Finals are defined in the Glossary of the USMS Rule Books as follows - competition in which only heats are swum and final placings are determined by times achieved in the heats.

[Chris Stevenson]

The article in Swimming World said that KPN set a record in the 400 IM during the a time trials section of the meet. That was perfectly legal because it was part of the sanction process that is stated here:

http://www.teamunify.com/czokslsc/__...08MeetInfo.pdf

Notice the sanction # on the entry form for the approved and sanctioned time trial. This does not exist in the Colony Zone entry form and there is nothing mentioned about a sanctioned time trial after the meet. That is the difference and that is one of the reasons why the time was denied from the meet results and for top ten rankings.

The other is that, again, until someone proves otherwise, FINA does not allow time trials for any masters competitions and explicitly states that in FINA Rule MSW 3.4 and USMS follows that rule in there rulebook under 102.10.1 A

Time Finals are defined in the Glossary of the USMS Rule Books as follows - competition in which only heats are swum and final placings are determined by times achieved in the heats.
December 24th, 2008 05:05 PM

FINA does not recognize ANY times at a USA-S meet, time trials or otherwise. (Unless dual sanctioned, I imagine, since then it is a USMS-sanctioned meet.)

USMS does recognize such times, however, which is why Guthrie and KPN could set national records. As Frank mentioned, the time trials were announced/approved beforehand.

[Paul Smith]

Seriously, though, I am not sure which is more impressive--a 47 year old who can swim this fast, or a 13 year old boy. It would be interesting to see what the bell curve of swimming records is. I assume that Dennis must be close to the world record with that 500. I wonder what the world record is for the 13-14 and 11-12 age groups.

Jim...Dennis swam faster than his own 45-49 natonal record which was 4:39 (no WR's since its yards)..same in the fly which was 1:51...I meant to ask him if the meet was sanctioned by USMS and forgot...oh and by the way he only rested 3 days and says he's out of shape right now. he wore an LZR in the free and a B70 in the fly...proof again that (IMHO) these suits have a dramatic effect on "in-season/un-rested" swims.

By the way 13-14 age group record is a bit "stiff"...Phelps was 4:26 back in 2000!

The 11-12 year old record is a measley 4:41 so no worries! The same kid holds the 200 record with a 1:46...both set this year.

Here are some better options:

8/under Boys-- Short Course

Event Time Name Club Year

25 Freestyle 13.24 Adam Hinshaw WV 02
50 Freestyle 28.30 Michael Rubottom TSC 84
100 Freestyle 1:01.78 Kent Johnson AH 84
25 Backstroke 15.79 Alex Liang PASA 08
50 Backstroke 33.73 Adam Hinshaw WV 02
25 Breaststroke 17.28 Brandon Conroy SCRA 03
50 Breaststroke 36.85 Noah Sol CROW 06
25 Butterfly 14.29 Michael Rubottom TSC 84
14.29 Brandon Conroy SCRA 03
50 Butterfly 31.50 Michael Rubottom TSC 84
100 I.M. 1:10.97 Michael Rubottom TSC 84

[jim thornton]

Paul, I just did two things, nearly simultaneously:

1) looked at your new David Hasselhoff avatar, with its encouraging T-shirt caption

2) looked at the 11-12 year old records for the 500 (4:41) and 200 (1:46).

I concluded from this:

A) Do not ask for whom the Hasselhoff T-shirt tolls: it tolls for me.

B) it is possible, though not probable, that a neonate is being born at this very moment somewhere in the world that I can still beat in swimming.

Merry Christmas to you and yours. You have given me my 2009 New Year's Resolution: to place somewhere in the Top 10 nationally in the 4-6 year old age group.

[Frank Thompson]

Thanks Frank. Wow, that's interesting. Seems like I've heard quite a lot, including from Jeff, that if the meet director/referee announces the time trial at the beginning of the day and opens it to all, the time counts. This "announcment" point was also one of the reasons my time was initially disallowed.

Perhaps more meet directors should consider putting a time trial slot on the order of events for their meet, if they think it won't run too long. (Rutgers was done around 1:00 or so.) USS swimming seems far ahead of us in some respects. This would certainly help people who have order of event issues.

Paul, there were quite a few masters swimmers in the dual sanctioned yards meet I swam in in NC. First time I had ever seen that, really.

Fortress:

I was involved in sanctioning a time trial during the 2007 Michigan Masters State Championship. I remember at first I was skeptical about this because of what was said back in 2001 on these forums about time trials. But the organization running the meet ran time trials in USA meets and wanted to offer them for masters.

As a guide to set this up, I used the 2007 USA Swimming Rule book because reference to this in the USMS Rule book was a little vague plus I know most of the time we use the rules and procedures of USA Swimming. The first thing I did was make these time trials a separate sanction because I did not want the time trials to conflict with the Championship swim times, individual and team high points since there are awards given out for those.

The time trials were going to take place during the morning and afternoon break on the second day of the meet. The order of events for the time trial was listed in the meet flyer as a separate sanction and all swimmers would know the order of events and would be called up to swim in that order. Officials were at there stations and ready to go. Electronic timing scoreboard was ready and manual timers were ready as back up.

We had only 5 swimmers swim in these trials out of over 300 swimmers that were at the meet. In one of the swims, Lois Nochman swimming in the 80-84 age group broke her own USMS National Record in the 100 Yard Fly. We filled out all of the necessary paper work for the USMS Record and the pool was measured before and after each session for the Championship meet so that was going to be done anyway. When I turned in the Application for a USMS Record there was some questions about this but basically the time was accepted for the record and the other swims were accepted from the time trials.

What I learned is that there are differences from how USA Swimming does time trials and how USMS does them. USA requires a separate sanction and USMS does not. Both organizations require the schedule of events to be spelled out in the meet flyer and followed accordingly during the meet. The results should spell out what swims were from time trials and what were from the meet. There is a way in Hytec Meet Manager to do this and I have seen it in results from USA meets but not from USMS meets.

Because we don't require a separate sanction, the swimmer can only swim a maximum of 5 events a day including the time trial swims. As in turned out we were lucky because the swimmers that swam the trials did not go over that limit and would have been disqualified in there 6th event if they had and this could have effected the swimmer in the individual high point and team high point awards. This is also where I learned that time trials swims are only good for short course yard meets when they are advertised in the meet flyer and part of the sanction. They are not permitted for short course meter and long course meter meets per USMS and FINA rules.

If the requirements for both USA and USMS are made, then times from these swims should count for both organizations and masters swimmers swimming in USA meets will get credit for the swims for USMS for both top ten and records. As was said before FINA will not count any times from time trials per there rules.

[That Guy]

If you see a 500 free result where Dennis Baker swims around 5:05 to 5:10, then he was swimming fly. I've heard that it's quite a sight to see him not only racing kids less than a third his age, but doing butterfly to boot. (Presumably he'd seed himself in a slower heat if he was planning to do fly, etc etc)

[pwolf66]

If you see a 500 free result where Dennis Baker swims around 5:05 to 5:10, then he was swimming fly. I've heard that it's quite a sight to see him not only racing kids less than a third his age, but doing butterfly to boot. (Presumably he'd seed himself in a slower heat if he was planning to do fly, etc etc)

Dennis had been planning to swim the 1500 all fly at the LCM Nats in Portland. But being the Meet Director and trying to make Trials cut just made that impossible. I would have loved to see it tho.

[Slowswim]

Jim: too funny!:rofl:

Fort: Way to go :applaud:and good luck on correcting the record!! :cheerleader:

[Frank Thompson]

Makes sense.
A competitor could miss their rival's time by a fraction, and try to better it by asking for a time trial.

Like a do-over.

There must be a place to refer to in the rule book. Or maybe not.
Apparently language stating otherwise seems a little vague.

I received this from the Officials Chairman, Charlie Cockrell the other day and this might shed some light on this from an Officials perspective.

As a follow-up, I have provided two additional items of interest for officials.

Meet Situation #7

Situation: During a meet, a swimmer approaches the Meet Referee and explains that he is attempting a USMS record in the 200-meter butterfly. During this event earlier in the meet, the swimmer missed the record by only 0.01-seconds. He requests that the Meet Referee add a time trial at the end of the meet so he can make another attempt. Should the Referee grant the request?

Resolution: Rule 102.13.1 states that the “order of events as stated in the meet announcement shall not be changed” and “the announced arrangement of heats shall not be added to or altered except by the authority of the referee to the extent of consolidating heats”). Therefore, adding individual time trials per swimmer requests to the meet program after the sanction has been granted is not permitted. The Referee may not grant the request.

[The Fortress]

I received this from the Officials Chairman, Charlie Cockrell the other day and this might shed some light on this from an Officials perspective.

As a follow-up, I have provided two additional items of interest for officials.

Meet Situation #7

Situation: During a meet, a swimmer approaches the Meet Referee and explains that he is attempting a USMS record in the 200-meter butterfly. During this event earlier in the meet, the swimmer missed the record by only 0.01-seconds. He requests that the Meet Referee add a time trial at the end of the meet so he can make another attempt. Should the Referee grant the request?

Resolution: Rule 102.13.1 states that the “order of events as stated in the meet announcement shall not be changed” and “the announced arrangement of heats shall not be added to or altered except by the authority of the referee to the extent of consolidating heats”). Therefore, adding individual time trials per swimmer requests to the meet program after the sanction has been granted is not permitted. The Referee may not grant the request.

:rofl:

Well, I certainly wasn't asking for a re-do!! Clearly, if a person wants multiple attempts at a single event they must enter appropriately and submit split requests.

I just got an email denying my appeal (as expected) yesterday and that was the rule they cited. Still, I think USMS should draft a rule for time trials in SCY. The rules are less than clear. I would note, moreover, that the Rules Committee did not address my Rule 202.2 argument -- which was the basis for my appeal -- at all. Chickens! They could have just cited Frank! :bow:

[jim thornton]

Frank "Skip" Thompson is a USMS swimming treasure, a former Coach of the Year and All American Nice Guy. I think we need to take up a collection so that when the unspeakable happens in 60-70 years from now, and Frank--like us all--passes on to the Great Pool In the Sky--that we can harvest and keep Frank's brain a la Albert Einstein's. I suspect that even stored pickled in a jar in the Executive Director's office, Frank's brain would continue to provide much sager resolutions to disputes than all the minutiae in all the handbooks in FINA-dom. (If you have not encountered this latter term and are unsure how to pronounce it, the emphasis is on the second syllable.)

Thanks, Frank.

[Jayhawk]

I suspect that even stored pickled in a jar in the Executive Director's office, Frank's brain would continue to provide much sager resolutions to disputes than all the minutiae in all the handbooks in FINA-dom. (If you have not encountered this latter term and are unsure how to pronounce it, the emphasis is on the second syllable.)

Is that fi-NA-dom? Or fi-na-DOM?