As an "outsider" to the world of "hardcore" swimming ...

[sftom]

I swim a lot and really enjoy it. It's something I've done all of my life, growing up in Southern California, and it's my main form of exercise. I'm good at it, but I do it primarily for health and enjoyment.

I've noticed from lurking around this board for several years that there seems to be a very self-congratulatory, cliquish tone to many threads and posts. It seems like it's often a small group of people who post relentlessly, as if they are engaged in some sort of private conversation where they're trying to outdo each other.

Maybe I'm the only one who feels that way. Maybe that's part and parcel of the world of "hardcore" competitive swimmers. Or maybe it's because there wouldn't be anything else to talk about, unless there weren't a constant focus on who's the "best" at this or that.

A race is something that happens once in a while, whereas a lifetime of swimming lasts, well, a lifetime. Yes, it's great to break a certain time in a certain race, but it's also great to have the self-discpline to keep at a daily swimming program and work on improving one's technique and endurance. Both are valid, and, to my mind, neither is more worthy of praise than the other.

Jim Thornton, if I recall correctly, noted a while ago that there were a lot of people lurking around the board and not really participating. If that is the case, I would propose that may be due to the general off-putting tone of things on here. (I won't give examples at this point, although I could.)

[Jazz Hands]

I can kind of see what you mean, but it's not as bad as it looks. I would say there's two parts: the clique and the competition.

The clique is not really a bad thing at all. If you post regularly, people will get used to your personality and you'll just be part of it. Most online forums are like that. It's also good to go to meets so you can actually see people in person.

The competition is not as fun sometimes, even for a competitive person like myself. I think this forum is generally way too obsessed with records and rankings. There's quite a bit of hero worship, too. Some people get status just from being fast. I've seen plenty of cases of "The Amazing X" where X is the name of an ordinary person who happens to swim fast. I called out Jonathan Miller for this once, but he's not the only one.

Really it's a minor issue compared to the very friendly attitude that's the norm. There's also a focus on individual improvement. Plenty of praise for anyone who makes an improvement or a commitment. The comparison thing that bugs me is limited in that it tends to only happen in a positive way ("You're so fast!"). Of course this leads to false modesty ("Nooo you're so much faster!") which makes me want to puke.

[islandsox]

Anyone who SWIMS, is not an outsider even though others may write things that make you feel that way. What it is is more familiarity. Trust me, I know. I had been on this board for a long time and got criticized because my background could not be "verified" by some. But for the most part, everyone here, I mean everyone, loves to hear from people just starting out, needing help, offering suggestions, and contributing to content of threads. Everyone who swims has something to offer and most do listen intently. I know this because I was where you were awhile back.

I have been a swimmer my entire life and have found that I actually enjoy the newcomers' comments as much as the oldtimers' comments. Swimmers do have heart and my suggestion is to jump in whenever you can to the subjects. Even with questions. Questions bring thought, thought brings insight, and those with experience will share. Thus, everyone benefits.

I am 61 and have been competing since age 9. I have never known a swimmer yet in my life to be a snob, maybe because we are all so pooped from the workouts. Please don't stop contributing nor stop with any questions. Many with swim experience feel good in their hearts to give advice to others.

Stay with the people here, they have a lot to offer.

Donna

[Jayhawk]

It seems like it's often a small group of people...

Jim Thornton, if I recall correctly, noted a while ago that there were a lot of people lurking around the board and not really participating....

For the record, 205 different users have posted on these forums since December 7th (one week ago). That's quite a few.

I'm not one of the "hardcore" swimmers by any stretch of the imagination. I usually finish last in my age group (as well as most of the other age groups, too, ha, ha). But I don't feel like an outsider.

As far as the "clique" thing goes, there are a lot of inside jokes but I think that's partly because a lot of these people go back 5 years or more on these forums. And if you don't "get" what's going on, just send a PM to one of the posters and they'll generally fill you in.

Anna Lea

[jim thornton]

Hi, Tom, I agree with what the others have posted here, i.e., that there can be an appearance of cliquishness, which is really just an artifact of people who have corresponded so regularly becoming an internet peer group of sorts. About 7 years ago, I was a very active poster here, and then for whatever reason, I drifted away for a reasonably long time, then came back a year or two ago. Many of the regulars had changed in the interlude, and I definitely felt that sense of being sort of--not excluded, exactly--but just kind of out of the mainstream and ignorant of who everybody was and what the various relationships were.

I have found that if you just bull your way through with an absolute indifference to what anyone else thinks, you can affix yourself like a barnacle on the bosom of the USMS discussion forums. Pretty soon, even the most sensitive of readers will give up trying to brush you off.

For what it's worth, I posted a poll not too long ago about peoples' backgrounds in swimming, and it seemed that a very sizable chunk had little competitive experience before masters.

I also think most would agree with you that the benefits of swimming probably do outweigh the glory of competition. I mean, let's face it: Making the top 10 in the 400 SCM freestyle in the 55-59 age group, something I am personally hoping to do, is nonetheless an accomplishment on a par, if perhaps a bit lower, than having a schnauzer that wins "Best in Breed" in a small regional dog pageant. Sure, I would love to be able to brag about my Best in Breed schnauzer medal, should I be lucky enough to win this, but I think most of us realize that sic gloria fugit, which loosely translated means "glory is sick, f... it".

Perhaps it would make an interesting thread to include a Dramatis Personnae of some of the regulars. Let me see:

Jim Thornton--spiritual leader of USMS

Paul Smith--a member of Posse Comitatus living in Arizona and being chased by federal marshals who are afraid to pursue him into the pool

The Fortress--she who must be obeyed

SwimStud--a breaststroker from the UK, where bathing is an annual ritual and thus his swimming really only took off once he arrived on our shores

CreamPuff--the one acolyte whom the spiritual leader would most like to take under his be-hassocked wing

Chris Stevenson--one of the few very fast and very smart swimmers on this forum

Pwolf66, aka, The Hulk--Paladin in a B70

Ian Smith--the Canadian wonder who honed his sprinting skills on the squash courts of Manitoba

Geek and Gull--nice seeming fellows who may or may not harbor fugitives like Paul Smith but also helped establish the so-called NSF or non-swimming forum (correct me if i am wrong)

BlackBeards Peg--an Aztec descendant who would be appalled, I am certain, by his ancestors' religious practices

Leonard Jansen and Peter Cruise--unusually witty fellows

Ande--the swimming coach we all wish we had on deck at our pools

Frank Thompson--the unofficial historian of the league who can tell you, with an idiot savant's fluency, the splits guys swam during high school meets in the late 60s

GeoChuck--ditto, only in this case, it's the late 1860s.

Okay, I realize I have left out the most interesting people, and I may have gotten many of the above mixed up. Is Paul Smith really the Posse Comitatus member, or is that me? I can't always remember that well after we do an "all hypoxic sets" workout.

Ah, it doesn't matter. They can't get rid of me. This barnacle has his purchase on the bosom, and it won't be budged.

I urge you, Tom, to affix yourself thusly on these forums, too.

[Mookie]

It is frustrating at times. Over 90% of USMS swimmers swim for fitness and don't compete, but the magazine and forums tend to obsess over competition. It's crazy, and that disconnect can be maddening. I've been meaning to complain about it, but I'm usually too whipped from swim practice and a beer after.

The great thing is that you are among swimmers, and swimmers will bend over backwards to help other swimmers, no matter who you are or are not. If you're not getting what you want, just ask.

How to fix the magazine to reflect the needs and interests of the vast majority of USMS, I don't know.

[Chicken of the Sea]

Hi Stfom!

I've been lurking around for quite a while without contributing.

It enhances my air of mystery.

:canada: (there's no Australian emoticon. This was the closest I could find)

[Chicken of the Sea]

Jim, you forgot me!

Chicken of the Sea = lukewarm water

[SwimStud]

:canada: (there's no Australian emoticon. This was the closest I could find)

Shouldn't the flag be upside down and with corks hanging from it?
:D

[Chicken of the Sea]

Good idea!

[CoachML]

I swim a lot and really enjoy it. It's something I've done all of my life, growing up in Southern California, and it's my main form of exercise. I'm good at it, but I do it primarily for health and enjoyment.

I've noticed from lurking around this board for several years that there seems to be a very self-congratulatory, cliquish tone to many threads and posts. It seems like it's often a small group of people who post relentlessly, as if they are engaged in some sort of private conversation where they're trying to outdo each other.

Maybe I'm the only one who feels that way. Maybe that's part and parcel of the world of "hardcore" competitive swimmers. Or maybe it's because there wouldn't be anything else to talk about, unless there weren't a constant focus on who's the "best" at this or that.

A race is something that happens once in a while, whereas a lifetime of swimming lasts, well, a lifetime. Yes, it's great to break a certain time in a certain race, but it's also great to have the self-discpline to keep at a daily swimming program and work on improving one's technique and endurance. Both are valid, and, to my mind, neither is more worthy of praise than the other.

Jim Thornton, if I recall correctly, noted a while ago that there were a lot of people lurking around the board and not really participating. If that is the case, I would propose that may be due to the general off-putting tone of things on here. (I won't give examples at this point, although I could.)Wow. I don't like your writing style. I didn't fully grasp the point you were trying to make until the last sentence. I was making you out to be a sophomoric tight wad who likes to tell the uppity competitive types to F off.

However, as a big time forum user I know that, it's not uncommon to have lurkers. It's not that they feel discouraged. They just don't feel like posting. A lot of times people just google swimming and forums like this pop up with a convenient answer to their question, or not.

[CoachML]

It is frustrating at times. Over 90% of USMS swimmers swim for fitness and don't compete, but the magazine and forums tend to obsess over competition. It's crazy, and that disconnect can be maddening. I've been meaning to complain about it, but I'm usually too whipped from swim practice and a beer after.

The great thing is that you are among swimmers, and swimmers will bend over backwards to help other swimmers, no matter who you are or are not. If you're not getting what you want, just ask.

How to fix the magazine to reflect the needs and interests of the vast majority of USMS, I don't know.You could always write a magazine yourself. However, I doubt people will actually buy it. That's usually the problem. Then again, find some hot models and it could work.

[pwbrundage]

A race is something that happens once in a while, whereas a lifetime of swimming lasts, well, a lifetime. Yes, it's great to break a certain time in a certain race, but it's also great to have the self-discpline to keep at a daily swimming program and work on improving one's technique and endurance. Both are valid, and, to my mind, neither is more worthy of praise than the other.


Sftom,

While I know there's a lot of discussion around racing and times, I think, at the core, most people are on the forums and in USMS for a variety of relatively similar reasons -- staying healthy, camaraderie, setting fitness goals (whether time / ranking related or not) and then figuring out how to achieve them. Times and rankings are an easy shorthand and ONE way to measure "success," but I think most people are digging deeper than that.

I agree there are a number of very prolific posters ... but you'll also find great advice (& not just racing advice) from these folks (as well as others). Hang out, check out the threads and topics that are of interest to your particular path right now and then jump in ... the water's fine and there are (little to no) sharks biting.

[knelson]

People here like to talk about successes in training and competitions because they know they'll have a receptive ear. This is something as swimmers we might not get at home or among non-swimming friends.

[ViveBene]

People here like to talk about successes in training and competitions because they know they'll have a receptive ear. This is something as swimmers we might not get at home or among non-swimming friends.

This is certainly true! It took my loving family 18 months to resume talking to me once I acquired a swim coach ("What is she doing THAT for?!")

"sftom," a lot of the conversations on these forums are continuations of conversations happening off the forums, at meets and elsewhere, as people get to know each other in person (I don't swim at that level, but I think it's kind of fun to drop in on long-running movies that don't star me, LOL!). And the amount of work to shave maybe a second off a time -- which generally indicates an overall increase in fitness, and improved technique -- is extraordinary.

Posters have been very generous with me, giving me lots of tips and plaudits for trifling achievements, such as a first dive after 40 years.

Any bb develops its own personality, and a few posters will lead the convos for a time. Bring your goggles, pull up a chair, and join in!

:)

[ViveBene]

A race is something that happens once in a while, whereas a lifetime of swimming lasts, well, a lifetime. Yes, it's great to break a certain time in a certain race, but it's also great to have the self-discpline to keep at a daily swimming program and work on improving one's technique and endurance. Both are valid, and, to my mind, neither is more worthy of praise than the other.


I would recommend JMiller's "Fun, and Fast" thread for a lifetime of swimming.

In the summer especially there are many threads on open water swimming for the fun and pleasure of it - no medals, races, or timers. (The thread "Where we swim OW" has more pictures of nonracing venues than of racing venues.) Regular work on technique in a daily, disciplined swimming program makes the fun possible; a decision to compete in meets helps one fine-tune the daily discipline. It's all good.
:)

[That Guy]

Flawed thread title - this is not hardcore swimming, this is Masters swimming. Attend any Masters meet and you'll see that the oldest competitors get the biggest cheers. As it should be.

And now, by popular demand, a dancing banana... :banana:

[Mookie]

You could always write a magazine yourself. However, I doubt people will actually buy it. That's usually the problem. Then again, find some hot models and it could work.

Why would you say something like that?

Anyway, my hope is that our magazine will more accurately reflect the 90% of the people who are already 'buying' it.

[gobears]

I swim a lot and really enjoy it. It's something I've done all of my life, growing up in Southern California, and it's my main form of exercise. I'm good at it, but I do it primarily for health and enjoyment.

I've noticed from lurking around this board for several years that there seems to be a very self-congratulatory, cliquish tone to many threads and posts. It seems like it's often a small group of people who post relentlessly, as if they are engaged in some sort of private conversation where they're trying to outdo each other.



I may be wrong, but aren't most forums somewhat this way? I participate in a few and have always noticed being a "newbie" on a board is intimidating. If you check out any of the Scout college sports boards they are a good example. Many forums are a whole lot harsher--complete with expletives, name calling and trolling. This one seems pretty tame to me. As for people being "self-congratulatory," I see it more as people being excited about their accomplishments. I think most on this board are excited about others' accomplishments as well (whether they be World Records or completing first practices). To me, that's a good thing.

That said, I think you just have to jump in and post. Eventually you will become part of the discussion (even if it's just being the cranky devil's advocate :angel:).

[dorothyrde]

Most forums are this way. The trick is to start posting and soon, you are "one of them". I have posted on and off for about the same time I have been swimming, 9 years, and found that everyone but one has been good hearted.

[The Fortress]

It is frustrating at times. Over 90% of USMS swimmers swim for fitness and don't compete, but the magazine and forums tend to obsess over competition. It's crazy, and that disconnect can be maddening. I've been meaning to complain about it, but I'm usually too whipped from swim practice and a beer after.

You've been meaning to complain about the forums? Really? And on what basis? There is no "rule" that competitive masters swimmers can only post 10% of the time or discuss racing or competition 10% of the time. If you want to talk about fitness swimming, feel free to start your own thread. But there is really no need to call us or our desire to compete or discuss competition "crazy"in a pejorative way. (Now, being called "crazy" in a nice way, is fine.)

If you are not interested in the trash talk or post-meet discussions or other postings, don't read them. Competitive masters swimmers are an obsessive subculture. Many come to this forum for workouts and/or to discuss technique, racing, tech suits etc. or to engage in light hearted banter. I have no idea why it would be beneficial to eliminate this from the forum, especially when many of these same swimmer regularly offer advice to competitive and fitness swimmers alike. Similarly, most competitive swimmers are pretty respectful about people who swim for fitness (and in fact also swim for fitness themselves) -- except of course about noodlers, who would not be reading this forum anyway as "noodling" is not "swimming." So why begrudge us our chit chat?

As for the alleged clique-ish aspect of the forums, many of us know each other personally and have either met or see each other regularly at meets. Would you feel better, sftom, if we pretended to be strangers?

[pwolf66]

Why would you say something like that?

Anyway, my hope is that our magazine will more accurately reflect the 90% of the people who are already 'buying' it.
Welcome to the forum!!


So make some suggestions to the folks who produce the magazine about what is important to you as a fitness swimmer. Submit some articles.

Maybe I don't understand but how are pictures showing proper technique, nutrition tips, example workouts, etc. not relevant to all USMS members? Sure, there are sections that are devoted to competitions but to say that the entire magazine ignores the 'over 90% that doesn't compete' is incorrect.

[CreamPuff]

Maybe I don't understand but how are pictures showing proper technique, nutrition tips, example workouts, etc. not relevant to all USMS members? Sure, there are sections that are devoted to competitions but to say that the entire magazine ignores the 'over 90% that doesn't compete' is incorrect.

My USA Tri magazines are comprised almost completely of boring rankings. USMS Swimmer seems like pictionary in comparison.

[Paul Smith]

A race is something that happens once in a while, whereas a lifetime of swimming lasts, well, a lifetime. Yes, it's great to break a certain time in a certain race, but it's also great to have the self-discpline to keep at a daily swimming program and work on improving one's technique and endurance. Both are valid, and, to my mind, neither is more worthy of praise than the other.

Sftom...it's sad and interesting that you see the comradarie that has been built between members on this forum thru a shared passion for swimming/competing as somehow "hardcore" and a subtle (or not) jab at non-competing masters as lesser somehow.

Teams, competition, rivalries, bets, good natured ribbing all act as "glue" of sorts for those of us who share the same passion for fitness as yourself. I also would suggest to you that whether you compete or not...working out with swimmers who do and coaches that adjust training cycles based on competition improves everyone's level of fitness.

So the next time your reading on this forum try and look at the banter between those of us who enjoy racing not as a put down to folks who don't...but rather an oppurtunity. If you ever choose to attend a meet as a competitor, volunteer or just to check it out and tag along with some masters afterwards you would probably be surprised at how much fun people are having making new friends, setting goals and providing support to keep at the training.

Lot's of great folks here (Thornton being the exception...stay far away) and were glad you joined us.

[aquageek]

Anyone who thinks our magazine is too competition focused obviously hasn't opened it lately. It does a nice job of mixing competition with fitness. The technique section applies to both.

I'm not sure what to make of the request that we stop acting like we enjoy competing and talking trash to each other. I've made a lot of friends on this forum, and a few enemies, so I think this is a fun place.

[USMSarah]

I may be wrong, but aren't most forums somewhat this way? I participate in a few and have always noticed being a "newbie" on a board is intimidating. If you check out any of the Scout college sports boards they are a good example. Many forums are a whole lot harsher--complete with expletives, name calling and trolling. This one seems pretty tame to me. As for people being "self-congratulatory," I see it more as people being excited about their accomplishments. I think most on this board are excited about others' accomplishments as well (whether they be World Records or completing first practices). To me, that's a good thing.

That said, I think you just have to jump in and post. Eventually you will become part of the discussion (even if it's just being the cranky devil's advocate :angel:).

I've noticed the same thing... you go to any site that has a forum, and you will get the clique-effect whenever the same people post a majority of the time. They create relationships... so if you don't post a lot, they don't get to know you. I lurk most of the time because a lot of other posters have already answered the question the way I would have. However, if I have a question, the swimmers here always have a thoughtful response. I'd also like to say that you cannot get the same type of response about our hard work efforts from family and friends that are non-swimmers... everyone here knows what we all are going thru.

[Paul Smith]

I've made a lot of friends on this forum, and a few enemies, so I think this is a fun place.

It's more like a LOT of enemies and a few people who feel sorry for you!

[gull]

People here like to talk about successes in training and competitions because they know they'll have a receptive ear. This is something as swimmers we might not get at home or among non-swimming friends.


I am still getting grief at home over the Blue 70 purchase.

FYI I provide cardiology advice, while Geek is willing to share his recipes for squirrel and fried pork rinds.

[Chris Stevenson]

Over 90% of USMS swimmers swim for fitness and don't compete, but the magazine and forums tend to obsess over competition.

What would you prefer the magazine to be like? (This is an honest question, I'm not trying to be hostile.)

There is little that can be done to regulate the topics of the forums -- it would be fairly silly to ban discussions of swimming competition in the same way that politics or religion is banned -- but I agee that the magazine ought to reflect the broad interests of the membership and not a vocal minority.

I'm curious how you came up with "over 90%." I agree there are a many fitness-only swimmers who are uninterested or intimidated by competition, but I don't think it is quite that high. (Seems I've heard numbers in the range of 60-65% USMS members do not go to meets.)

BTW, speaking only for myself, fitness/health is my main reason for swimming too. It's just that competition is a way to motivate me to be in better shape than otherwise. There is no question that I am fitter than I would be if I never swam in meets, though others obviously may differ in what motivates them to work out.

There is certainly a social aspect too; there are a lot of people I see at meets, or friends I've made, that I see nowhere else. And occasionally there is a blast from the past: I've unexpectedly come across old friends or teammates. At Worlds in 2006, I saw my swim coach from when I was a 14-year-old in Greece, which was pretty cool and totally a surprise.

[pwbrundage]

BTW, speaking only for myself, fitness/health is my main reason for swimming too. It's just that competition is a way to motivate me to be in better shape than otherwise. There is no question that I am fitter than I would be if I never swam in meets, though others obviously may differ in what motivates them to work out.

Agree 100%. Maybe I'm not self-motivated enough, but I find that, if I don't have some event to train for, my desire to get up at 4:30 in the morning to get a workout, dog walk, kids ready for school, etc. in before work wanes very quickly.

There is certainly a social aspect too; there are a lot of people I see at meets, or friends I've made, that I see nowhere else. And occasionally there is a blast from the past: I've unexpectedly come across old friends or teammates. At Worlds in 2006, I saw my swim coach from when I was a 14-year-old in Greece, which was pretty cool and totally a surprise.

It goes even beyond friends to family and even professional lives. Two examples:


My dad and I (he's 65, I'm 41) live on opposite sides of the country and both swim Masters. This year I've met him and my Mom in both Austin and New Jersey for swim meets. Hanging out with them over three days through 7 to 8 hour days at the pools, followed by dinner and more discussion is a TREAT I'm glad we're able to give each other.
Like Chris's example from Worlds in 2006, I was introduced via a swimming colleague to a guy who was in the market for a new role professionally. While I ultimately couldn't make the package from my company match the offer he had elsewhere, this is one person that I hope one day I'll be able to work with outside of the pool.

I've had a discussion going on with a fellow swim parent at my kids' team around this question, "Does swimming produce great people or are great people attracted to swimming?" At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter as the end result is the same.

From time to time, people might get cranky on the forums ... but isn't that true in real life, as well?

[jim thornton]

One quick non-jokey thought here. It's actually the truly great swimmers like Chris Stevenson, Ande Rasmussen, Pat Brundage that are the nicest people on these forums.

It's us aspiring types like me and Paul Smith, whose lives outside of swimming are mediocre and unsatisfying, who are problematic.

Avoid us and you will find the forums uniformly welcoming.

Actually, I am pretty nice too. Just avoid Paul if for no other reason that the federal marshals will eventually find him, and just like they did with Gordon Caul, they will fire so much lead into his home that the walls will collapse under the weight of it. You don't want to get caught in the crossfire. Even a triple coating of B70s will not be enough to save you.

[qbrain]

sftom, welcome. Lurking is great if you have a question that has already been answered. Doesn't work so well, once you would like some interactive help. There is a small group that is really good at providing that kind of help, and thus end up with thousands of posts next to their name. There is nothing wrong with being a lurker or even a poster who only posts a few times. If your goal is for everyone to know your name, then it makes sense to post often, and hopefully meaningfully.

It is frustrating at times. Over 90% of USMS swimmers swim for fitness and don't compete, but the magazine and forums tend to obsess over competition.

If you think of swimming as a spectrum, with fitness swimmers at one end and competitive swimmers on the over, the spectrum is probably pretty short.

As a fitness swimmer, you might only care about getting in and doing your thing until you feel adequately tired. In that case, you don't care about forums, magazines, work outs or any kind of competition. You just want a lane open when you want to swim.

As a competitive swimmer, you care about training techniques, starts, turns, how other people are competing that are either your friends or your competitors, depending on how you look at it.

A fitness swimmer who wants to become a better swimmer cares about a lot of the same things as a competitive swimmer. They want to get better, and they need a way to measure that. How the two groups measure that could be completely different, but both need workouts that will push them, and methods to improve technique.

If you think Swimmer is competition focused, pick up a copy of Swimming World. Meet results, meet reviews, interviews with champion age groupers, and to me, boring boring boring. I think we have it pretty good, but I would love to hear what someone who only cares about fitness would like to see added to Swimmer, because it is very likely that whatever they came up with would be of interest to me, some who attends meets, but probably won't see a top 10 time.


There's quite a bit of hero worship, too.

I wish I was Jazz Hands in the morning during my swim workout, and am thankful that I am not in the evening during my weight workout. http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9623 :bow: (http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=9623)

[3strokes]

Shouldn't the flag be upside down and with corks hanging from it?
:D

We don't use corks in our beerbottles. If they're not twist-top then they're cans (or kegs)........:canada:

[Mookie]

From the USMS website:
Do I have to compete?

Everyone has his or her own reason for belonging - health, fitness, camaraderie, fun, the thrill of competition, travel and coaching are but a few.
About 30% of Masters swimmers compete in swimming meets on a regular basis. For those who are serious competitors, there are an incredible number of opportunities to test your skill and conditioning. Short Course (25 yard and 25 meter) and Long Course (50 meter) pool meets, lake and ocean open water swims, postal meets, special events and international championships are all part of an ambitious program of Masters swimming.

OK, it's 30%, not 10%. My memory ain't what it used to be.

My point was meant as a helping hand to sftom. Most of us are here for fitness, and the competition nature of most of the posts shouldn't dissuade him. Yes, it can be frustrating to wade through the competition stuff to get to the fitness stuff, but I never suggested that anybody should change what they are posting. Take a chill pill, Fortress. Forums are what they are, and a person can take them or leave them. I enjoy the open discussion and varying views. Some people take a differing view as a personal attack, and that is not correct, and certainly not what I meant.

Looking at SWIMMER magazine, excluding advertisements, the recent issue had 15 pages of what I considered 'competition' articles, including the 'From the editor'. There were about ten pages of fitness and noncompetition articles, including the five pages of 'Butterfly Checkup'. That's 60% of the magazine focused on 30% of the readers.

[anita]

Hi sftom,

When I joined up here I felt like an outsider for a while...but only because I was new (duh), so of course I didn't know the relationships or personalities who post here. It was like walking into a party where I didn't know anyone. I hung out by the wall for a while and am now at least bumping into people.
I no longer compete, train with a Masters team, don't care about tech suits, and am pretty much fine with noodlers, so I'm not really part of the Masters community, per se. Since that is my choice and circumstance, it is fine with me. It doesn't mean I don't have anything to offer or gain from this board.
Now, if I went to a meet, introduced myself and was snubbed? That would be a different story and cause for stomping of feet. However, I don't think that would happen.
Still, I enjoy the banter--and loved seeing The Fortress swim (Oh, to look that smooth again!)--even though I've never met any of these people, nor, realistically, will I.
So post when you have something to add. It may not always be commented on--okay, rarely be commented on--but it doesn't mean someone won't find it useful.

[chowmi]

My other favorites!

1. Smith by Marriage
2. Glider
3. PWBrundage ties with
3. Dolphin 2

Is Dolphin 2 a boy or girl?

I am still afraid of Paul Smith.

[The Fortress]

Now, if I went to a meet, introduced myself and was snubbed? That would be a different story and cause for stomping of feet.

Can't even imagine this happening! One reason meets are so fun is the atmosphere is one of total support and encouragement no matter the level of your swimming ability.

Mookie,

Chill pill not needed. lol. I was simply taking the opposite view in my post and pointing out the absurdities of certain statements. However, I still don't really see how it can be all that "frustrating" to wade through the competition-related threads -- you can simply avoid them. I find it pretty easy to avoid threads I'm uninterested in -- they usually have words like "distance free" or "postal swims" or "how to pace a 200 free". And if there's simply too many such threads, maybe a different forum is more up your alley?

As for the "alleged "crankiness" of certain posts, much of this either: is somewhat feigned (Geek), is pure baiting (SwimStud), is pure theater (Geek again), is intended to provoke a good debate (Paul Smith), reflects the analytical nature of the poster (Geek again), reflects the poster's absolute inability to suffer fools (Kurt Dickson), reflects the poster's love of a good old fashioned row (Geek again). Take it all with a grain of salt.

Michelle, I can give you some tips to help with that Paul Smith problem ...

[pwbrundage]

My other favorites!

1. Smith by Marriage
2. Glider
3. PWBrundage ties with
3. Dolphin 2

Is Dolphin 2 a boy or girl?

I am still afraid of Paul Smith.

Now, if we're talking about rankings, I need to raise my "forum game!" :)

Of course, I doubt I could ever match the wit of "Smith by Marriage" so I'll happily cede that spot.

[SwimStud]

... is pure baiting (SwimStud)...


I don't bait. I'm not pure either!

[jim thornton]

I beg to differ, Rich. I think you are the master of baiting.

[The Fortress]

I beg to differ, Rich. I think you are the master of baiting.

He especially likes to tease the women. Shocker, I know.

[Paul Smith]

I am still afraid of Paul Smith.

And here I thought you were rushing to the blocks for an event when we saw each other on deck at the ASU meet and you turned tail and ran!

Come on now...I invited you to Four Peaks (you snubbed me), added you to my email newsletter even though your an "outsider" (yes it took your sister reminding me 6x) and have never thrown anything at you...what's to be afraid of?

[Thrashing Slug]

sftom - is this the first Internet forum you've joined? It seems like you're complaining about their very nature. Cliques, flames, trash talking... these are sine qua non for discussion boards. This one is actually pretty tame and welcoming. And on-topic. The moderators actually moderate.

[rtodd]

For me I was looking for advice as a new swimmer. I dove right in and posted and the help I got was enormous. This forum is a great tool. There are clearly people who know each other and sometimes they go back and forth, bla bla bla, whatever. But these "clicky" people chime right in when asked and be assured you've got olympic caliber coaching and advice at your fingertips here. I am not self conscious of the fact that I am way slower. The people on this forum want nothing more than to see people improve. Because I am largely on my own with my training, I find it very motivational that there are people out there eating and breathing this stuff. I think that's pretty cool.

[funkyfish]

BTW, speaking only for myself, fitness/health is my main reason for swimming too. It's just that competition is a way to motivate me to be in better shape than otherwise. There is no question that I am fitter than I would be if I never swam in meets, though others obviously may differ in what motivates them to work out.

This falls in line with my thinking about swimming/fitness/competition. I've found that going to 3-4 meets throughout the year keeps me motivated to continue to improve my fitness. For myself, if I didn't compete, it would be much easier to blow off practice when it gets cold outside, or to back off during a hard set. Competition helps me to stay focused.

And even though I swim at meets, I know that ultimately I am competing with myself (I think most swimmers do this), because there are just too many "crazy-fast" swimmers out there who are both older and younger than myself.
:bliss:

[sftom]

Interesting responses, and I see it gave the regulars a chance to yuck it up amongst themselves--once again. Sigh.

Lest anyone think I'm not familiar with the nature of internet message boards, I have participated in quite a few and continue to do so. But given my enjoyment of and dedication to swimming, I guess I have envisioned for a while now something of a higher caliber here that would provide a means of connection for the USMS community at large. Perhaps a sticky thread (note my familiarity with message-board lingo) dedicated to "outsiders" or fitness swimmers, where talk of competition and inside jokes are discouraged, would be a good idea. What say ye moderators?

[SwimStud]

Interesting responses, and I see it gave the regulars a chance to yuck it up amongst themselves--once again. Sigh.

Lest anyone think I'm not familiar with the nature of internet message boards, I have participated in quite a few and continue to do so. But given my enjoyment of and dedication to swimming, I guess I have envisioned for a while now something of a higher caliber here that would provide a means of connection for the USMS community at large. Perhaps a sticky thread (note my familiarity with message-board lingo) dedicated to "outsiders" or fitness swimmers, where talk of competition and inside jokes are discouraged, would be a good idea. What say ye moderators?

Yes good idea. The HTT (Holier Than Thou) Section; put it at the bottom so I don't have to scroll past.

Sheesh. Everyone's been nice and tried to welcome you in (even with your lead off general insult), but you are still giving it the large one. Guess what, you've probably become an inside joke now.
:bow::bow::bow:

Can we discuss water temperature or what colour goggles we prefer?

[The Fortress]

It gave the regulars a chance to yuck it up amongst themselves--once again. Sigh.

And what the f is wrong with that, Mr. HTT? Stop with the whiney "sighing." Ugh. Or don't; it's your perogative.

I have no problem with an "outsider" thread. Splendid idea. By why does it merit a special "sticky" unlike any other thread exactly? Just revive the thread whenever necessary as people do other threads. I may have to go revive my "Women's Locker Room" thread just reading this.

Indeed, I recall that you are such a jolly fellow, that you had the following to say about posters on a completely innocent thread (masters horror flick) lampooning forumites:

".. but before she could see what it was an asteroid the size of the North American slammed into the Earth, immediately destroying all civilizations and life on it and knocking the globe off its orbit, whereupon Earth plummeted into the Sun, which permanently incinerated and vaporized all traces of Earth and anything ever associated with it, including but not limited to all of the people, places, and things referenced in this thread, which people, places, and things could never be reconstructed, resurrected or reconstituted by any power, force, or method, whether known or imaginary."

Seriously, if you harbor such a dim view and have such an avid dislike of the posters here, why bother reading? And, for the second time, no, you will not turn into a "turnip" because you are not competing. But there is no reason to belittle people that are competing or that obsess about it. That is our choice too.

[SwimStud]

Seriously, if you have such a dim view of the posters here, why bother reading? And, for the second time, no, you will not turn into a "turnip" because you are not competing. But there is no reason to belittle people that are competing or that obsess about it. That is our choice too.

Oh a new Swimming Stereotype The Turnip

[CoachML]

Yes good idea. The HTT (Holier Than Thou) Section; put it at the bottom so I don't have to scroll past.

Sheesh. Everyone's been nice and tried to welcome you in (even with your lead off general insult), but you are still giving it the large one. Guess what, you've probably become an inside joke now.
:bow::bow::bow:

Can we discuss water temperature or what colour goggles we prefer?It's spelled "color" :frustrated:

Happy? ^.^

[The Fortress]

Oh a new Swimming Stereotype The Turnip

And what about the Holier Than Thou Stereotype?

[SwimStud]

And what about the Holier Than Thou Stereotype?
I went with Turnip
giggle giggle inside joke giggle giggle did you see I had an awesome race this summer? tee-hee butt slap towel flick!

[SwimStud]

It's spelled "color" :frustrated:

Happy? ^.^

You can spell it wrong if you like. :banana:

[The Fortress]

I went with Turnip
giggle giggle inside joke giggle giggle did you see I had an awesome race this summer? tee-hee butt slap towel flick!

Jim Thornton will never be able to resist this little ditty ...

[jim thornton]

Tom, and I don't mean to sound harsh here, but I do think there have been a lot of very well intentioned replies here to the issues you've raised. I concede that I am a bit of a yuckster, one who is guilty of occasionally yucking it up with other yucksters, some of whom I have gotten to know as friends right here on this very forum, and that is something we yuckster-oriented friends do, i.e., yuck it up with each other.

Anyhow, as Mick Jagger so nicely put it, Confound them if they can't take a joke.

My advice: start a thread of your own, entitle it something like "fitness swimmers unite" or whatever you would like to discuss, then steer the topic towards what you would like to discuss. Chances are good that you will get plenty of responses. Sometimes you might have to prime the pump several times, vis a vis, posting on your own thread to keep it high in the queue. But you can raise any topic you want here (although some of mine have been jerked away, but that's another matter); anyhow, good luck. People here are nice! But you will find that, as in most venues, the tone you set is the one you will most likely find comes echoing back atcha.

[Jazz Hands]

Okay guys, from now on there will be

No Joking
No Horseplay
No Tomfoolery
No Giggling
No Smirking
No Innuendo
No Winking
No Nudging
No Improper Thoughts
No Shenanigans
No Abstract Expressionism

and most of all

No Yucking It Up

[Chris Stevenson]

Perhaps a sticky thread dedicated to "outsiders" or fitness swimmers, where talk of competition and inside jokes are discouraged, would be a good idea.

I don't know that you'll convince moderators to make it "sticky," but other than that: what is stopping you? Go for it.

I see a thread has already started. There are a number of people here with coaching experience (I'm not one of them, other than self-coaching). Share your experiences, ask a question, state what it is you would prefer to see in "Swimmer" and on the web site. I can guarantee people are listening. I still don't know what you're looking for, exactly, just that you aren't completely happy with what you're getting.

Despite the in-jokes you decry, I seriously doubt you'll find any regular poster belittling someone else based on their swimming ability.

[aquageek]

Perhaps a sticky thread (note my familiarity with message-board lingo) dedicated to "outsiders" or fitness swimmers, where talk of competition and inside jokes are discouraged, would be a good idea. What say ye moderators?

I really don't understand where you are going with this. We aren't supposed to like each other, poke fun of each other, be competititive, etc. It's really not terribly difficult to peel away some of the stuff you dislike and find a lot of great swimming advice here. There aren't that many inside jokes left now that Stud has perfected his backstroke and The Valentines Day Forum Debacle is well in the past.

[ensignada]

Interesting responses, and I see it gave the regulars a chance to yuck it up amongst themselves--once again. Sigh.



Oh get a life.

Previous posts to this thread have tried to be welcoming. You're just being a jerk.

I'm a 99% fitness/1% competitive. I tend to "lurk" these days. (Thanks for pulling me out of that, btw.) Many (too many to name) of the posters here are responsible for encouraging me to try new things. I met them here first here as a newbie working on stroke improvement; I've since met them at meets (which they encouraged me to give a try). Many of my forum friends are "elite" FINA TT swimmers, who have congratulated me as I've progressed and laughed with me as I've regressed. A couple of these "elites" whom you've maligned have watched nearly every race I've swam and have taken the time to find at least one positive aspect of my swim as well as comment or two. I might add that I am 44 and am competitive in the 70-74 age group...some of the time.

If you don't like this sandbox, go find another to play in.

[qbrain]

Interesting responses, and I see it gave the regulars a chance to yuck it up amongst themselves--once again. Sigh.

Lest anyone think I'm not familiar with the nature of internet message boards, I have participated in quite a few and continue to do so.

I had to laugh at the abrupt shift in the tone of this thread after sftom's comment. Not only is sftom familiar with the nature of internet message boards, he is a master at trolling.

[anita]

Perhaps a sticky thread (note my familiarity with message-board lingo) dedicated to "outsiders" or fitness swimmers, where talk of competition and inside jokes are discouraged, would be a good idea. What say ye moderators?

The only thing this would encourage is for posters to feel even more of an outsider. They would never see the personalities who post here, nor gain the tips and challenges. Yes, I'm a fitness swimmer with no intention of competing again, but I have learned so much. Worked on SDK's this morning, in fact, even though I will never use them in competition.
I think you need to eat something fattening, listen to the B-52's, watch The Simpsons...anything to lighten up.

[quicksilver]

The general discussions area might appear to be the mosh pit of the forums to the outsider. But the banter seems to be always welcoming to those who want to join in. There's very good information to be found, and invariably the swimming related topics stay on course regardless of how many side bars get thrown in.


The way I see it, a forum is like a buffet. Just because they're serving calf's liver with bacon and onions doesn't mean you have to put them on your plate. Somewhere down the line, something preferable will appear.

[knelson]

Not to mention all of us are solely responsible for the content here. If you don't like the current threads, start a new one to discuss the topic you are interested in. It doesn't make sense to just lurk and then complain that people aren't discussing what you want to hear!

[Allen Stark]

Not to mention all of us are solely responsible for the content here. If you don't like the current threads, start a new one to discuss the topic you are interested in. It doesn't make sense to just lurk and then complain that people aren't discussing what you want to hear!
YES.My favorite thread is the Attaboy/girl thread.People post all sorts of accomplishments and everyone is congratulatory.
I think Jim's leaving me off his list of Forumites is Eastern media Bias.

[The Fortress]

The way I see it, a forum is like a buffet. Just because they're serving calf's liver with bacon and onions doesn't mean you have to put them on your plate. Somewhere down the line, something preferable will appear.

So clique-ish yuckstering is the equivalent of calf's liver with bacon and onions?! Ew.

Allen, you were left off because of the anti-evilstroker bias. :)

[rtodd]

I love liver bacon and onions. See, the forum works. It really is like a buffet.

[Allen Stark]

Allen, you were left off because of the anti-evilstroker bias. :)

That's what I thought at first,but he had Rich and Peter.On second thought you may be right.He probably didn't know Peter is a breaststroker as he doesn't really advertise the fact and he couldn't leave Rich off as he is too "colourful"
Also,when are you going to realize that backstroke is the real evilstroke.

[quicksilver]

So clique-ish yuckstering is the equivalent of calf's liver with bacon and onions?! Ew.

:)

Not exactly. I was referring to threads, not necessarily the comedy shows.

Example of what I meant...

No offense to the breaststrokers, but I tend to pass on those threads.
And the feminine personal topics = deep fried escargot. No thanks! :)

[poolraat]

I think Jim's leaving me off his list of Forumites is Eastern media Bias.


I'm sure I was left off for the same reason.

[quicksilver]

I love liver bacon and onions.



Dude.

(Insert pukey smiley face *here*)

[jim thornton]

Dramatis Personnae Continued:

Allen Stark, an incredibly decent fellow born with one of those bowl-legged conditions sometimes mistaken for rickets but which has left him with an ability to swim like the most slippery Rana pipiens you ever did see squirt its way through a lily pond!

Poolrat, AKA, Floyd, AKA, Swims with Bees, a noble lad of the first rank and the only one of us with a snowball's chance in hell of getting a casino license one day, at which point his nobility will be as tested as his ability to ignore requests for money from people like his spiritual leader, Jim Thornton

Rtodd, a former runner who, I must say, I do not know the life story details of, and thus will simply make them up here the way I have done with Allen Stark and Floyd; given his slight resemblance to the big-headed Olympic miler great hope, Alan Web, I am pretty sure Rtodd is Alan Web. For more information, google Alan Web, though you might have to try various spellings, Allen Webb, Alain Waeb, etc. till you get the right one.

Knelson, another very likable person I admit I don't Know (pronounced ka-no) very well, in fact, I am not even sure if the K in Knelson is pronounced, as in Ka Nelson, or silent, as in Know. In any event, and based on no real knowledge, or perhaps kanowledge, I am pretty sure he can beat me badly in the pool, even were lactic acid tying up his muscles in kanots.

Ensignada, the person I would most want to administer my final Brompton's Cocktail when the time comes, so soothing and kind and generous of spirit this one is, and I am pretty sure whe wouldn't try to horde my drink for herself.

[ViveBene]

Quicksilver's cat, the buffest of all.

CreamPuff, Goddess. :bow:

ViveBene (that would be me), mountain climber with unusual interest in OW swims; good at applauding others' achievements in the pool, which she cannot imagine herself doing (but maybe if I get a monofin... hmm).
:cheerleader:

JMiller, good life swimmer who has singlehandedly converted many forumites to better workouts through his thread, "Fun, and Fast."

:banana: The banana, which speaks for itself.

[inflictfreedom]

I think I like where this thread is headed.

[rtodd]

Yes, I also broke Jim Ryun's HS mile record.....kinda. I ran under a minute for the first quarter and it felt so good I figured I could hold that for three more, so I just eased up and called it a sure thing.

Here is a mistaken identity story:

Back in 2006 we ran the 40 and over 4x400 at the Millrose games. We were in the athlete warm up area with all the Olympic athletes and some HS girls asked one of my team mates (I guess he has the look) to autograph their program figuring he was a "somebody", so he did. We crack up big time thinking back on that because we were just as star struck watching the Olympians warm up.

[SearayPaul]

Clicks not here. I always get good advice and different opinions when I post here. I was impressed a while back when I posted about my first postal event and so many of the regulars posted with advice. Several of them event sent PMs wishing me good luck even though I only new of them virtually. My wife and I were really impressed that people had taken the time to write a note in todays hectic pace.

As for the magazine it has a little bit of everything in it depending upon the issue.

Thanks for the great forum from an infrequent poster.

Paul

[CreamPuff]

So clique-ish yuckstering is the equivalent of calf's liver with bacon and onions?! Ew.

Allen, you were left off because of the anti-evilstroker bias. :)

Yummmm. . . My parents served me liver and onions once a week when I was younger. I learned to love it. 'Course, I haven't eaten it in about 25 years now.

What is the criteria for becoming a clique-ish yuckster?! I would love to be in this group!

[quicksilver]

What is the criteria for becoming a clique-ish yuckster?!

You must denounce your abilities and desires to be a "hardcore" swimmer.
Continue to poke fun at fellow forumites both old and new.
And have the keen ability to derail threads from their original subject matter.

[ensignada]

Yummmm. . . My parents served me liver and onions once a week when I was younger. I learned to love it.


I'll have what she's having....

[CreamPuff]

You must denounce your abilities and desires to be a "hardcore" swimmer.
Continue to poke fun at fellow forumites both old and new.
And have the keen ability to derail threads from their original subject matter.

Oh good. I qualify.

[CreamPuff]

I'll have what she's having....

Anyone remember when KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken) used to have fried chicken livers on their menu? I actually ate them as a kid. . .

[aquageek]

Anyone remember when KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken) used to have fried chicken livers on their menu? I actually ate them as a kid. . .

I wish all you people would stop talking about all the crazy delicious food I love so much. It's discussing things like this that may lead me back to my ATFness.

[Michael Heather]

sftom,

I feel your pain. It is often tough to wade through the inside jokes, banter and clique trash to get to actual information. Since you are familiar with forums, you probably recognize this activity and I hope it does not totally turn you off to this DF. You undoubtedly have your own labels for those who have "helped" you while not releasing their death grip on inside references amongst one another. You will be welcomed with one hand and smacked in the head with the other if you fail to understand the subtle nuances of the reigning clique. Ignoring their histrionics is the best advice I can give. The fact that they have now labeled you (HTT, turnip) can work in your favor if you are inclined to push their hot buttons for fun (and have a thick hide for the responses).

Welcome to the USMS forums. Lurk to your heart's content or post when you feel the desire. We'll all be here.

[CreamPuff]

I wish all you people would stop talking about all the crazy delicious food I love so much. It's discussing things like this that may lead me back to my ATFness.

I don't believe your ATF was ever fat. Can you post a pic?

[aquageek]

I don't believe your ATF was ever fat. Can you post a pic?

No one needs to see that. I have a foto of me coming out of the water at an OW event a few years back and it more resembles some sort of gasping blubbery aquatic blob.

[CreamPuff]

No one needs to see that. I have a foto of me coming out of the water at an OW event a few years back and it more resembles some sort of gasping blubbery aquatic blob.

*IF* that's the case, I vote for your being the new poster boy of "hardcore" swimming for that major transformation from blubbery blob to buff Bill.

[aquageek]

*IF* that's the case, I vote for your being the new poster boy of "hardcore" swimming for that major transformation from blubbery blob to buff Bill.

That would be too clique-y and might offend people. I can't agree to such off-putting behavior. After all, we now have to pretend we don't like each other.

[CreamPuff]

That would be too clique-y and might offend people. I can't agree to such off-putting behavior. After all, we now have to pretend we don't like each other.

So we need to NOT like eachother; cut out jokes, banter, and inside references while sticking to discussing only the topic at hand. I get it. Wondertwin powers. Activate! Form of. . . A Grumpy Old Man!

[The Fortress]

So we need to NOT like eachother; cut out jokes, banter, and inside references while sticking to discussing only the topic at hand. I get it. Wondertwin powers. Activate! Form of. . . A Grumpy Old Man!

Stop the histrionics and yuckstering, you two.

I'd go back to disliking Geek, but that would only lead to baiting and flame wars and those are apparently taboo as well.

[CreamPuff]

Fine. I'm off to my hardcore swimming practice with National team today. Coincidentally, their continual yuckstering, baiting, flame throwing and histrionics throughout practice have lead to multiple Senior National, OT cuts and Olympians. I just hope to successfully swim around the SR Nat qualifying 15 yr old's game of patty cake during warm up. Yesterday, I accidentally broke it up with my SDK.

[Mary1912]

I think it's just the nature of a message board. You have core regulars, lurkers, occasional posters, those who post a lot then disappear and then come back. It's just part of life on the web.

I am a swimmer who recently came back to the sport about 21 years after I stopped. I have felt welcome and encouraged by everyone here. I have received great advice as well.

I know I'm not the "inner circle" and that's fine. Everyone here is very nice. I like to read up on people here shaving seconds off their times or getting ranked and winning races. It's great.

Everyone here has been very welcoming and supportive. Give it a shot.

[aquageek]

I'd go back to disliking Geek, but that would only lead to baiting and flame wars and those are apparently taboo as well.

Mini-van driver, poem writing lawyer!

[Chicken of the Sea]

I love lamb's liver, bacon and onions!

[thewookiee]

[QUOTE= buff Bill.[/QUOTE]


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::r ofl::rofl::rofl::

[Mookie]

My daughter couldn't remember if it was Fried Chicken Livers, or Fried Chicken Gizzards, so she asked for Fried Chicken Lizards. Big mistake in a car with three brothers and Dad. To this day it's Chicken Lizards for anything fried.

[Allen Stark]

Dramatis Personnae Continued:

Allen Stark, an incredibly decent fellow born with one of those bowl-legged conditions sometimes mistaken for rickets but which has left him with an ability to swim like the most slippery Rana pipiens you ever did see squirt its way through a lily pond!


How did you know I was bowlegged?

[jim thornton]

Elementary, my dear Stark. How do you think I know that a bird that flies has wings?

[Red60]

This thread is hilarious. The last quarter of it has become a sort of experimental jazz version of the original poster's objection, which is, of course, the universal sibling response to a complaint. As in: OKAY I'LL DO THAT THING YOU'VE ADMITTED YOU HATE FIVE THOUSAND TIMES IN A ROW UNTIL YOU EITHER EXPLODE OR BECOME APPROPRIATELY NUMB TO OUR HAZING BECAUSE UNDERNEATH IT ALL WE REALLY DO LOVE YOU.

Tom, sorry about the hazing but they do sort of have a point. As in: deal.

I love these boards because they legitimize a form of compulsiveness that is not work-oriented, a big benefit to me personally. I know very very few of these people, but I have benefited from the advice and love the community.

[Peter Cruise]

Well, I'll be gobsmacked. As a neighbour, I harbour some humour towards a dispute over spelling colour.
We are a thriving internet village with room for all.

[The Fortress]

This thread is hilarious. The last quarter of it has become a sort of experimental jazz version of the original poster's objection, which is, of course, the universal sibling response to a complaint. As in: OKAY I'LL DO THAT THING YOU'VE ADMITTED YOU HATE FIVE THOUSAND TIMES IN A ROW UNTIL YOU EITHER EXPLODE OR BECOME APPROPRIATELY NUMB TO OUR HAZING BECAUSE UNDERNEATH IT ALL WE REALLY DO LOVE YOU.


Nice! lol It's the "law of unintended consequences."

Geek,

Now that I'm pretending we've never met and de-clique-ing you, I have taken umbrage to that horrific personal attack you launched above. John and I will be around to drive over you with our fire engine red Durangos.

[SwimStud]

I know I'm not the "inner circle" and that's fine. Everyone here is very nice.


Mary there is no "inner circle"...and if Jim Thornton tries to initiate you into one run or swim away fast!

Seriously though, there's no exclusive group, some folks have just met at meets and become friends. If you contribute and comment, you're as much a part of anything as the rest of us...especially if you enjoy a good yuck!

[jim thornton]

This thread is hilarious. The last quarter of it has become a sort of experimental jazz version of the original poster's objection,

Magnificent description!

Dramatis Personnae addendum

Mermaid: the queen of a long-legged tribe of Amazonians, scattered hither and yon from yoga studios in Santa Monica to bra-protesting corners of Reading, Pa, who share in common a Facebook desirability rating so Zarathustrian that the Greek gods have taken note and are thinking of punishing such hubris by turning the lovely lasses into a new species of orchid pollinated exclusively by squirrel monkeys.

[knelson]

As a neighbour, I harbour some humour towards a dispute over spelling colour.

I'll allow colour, but if Stud starts discussing the "tyres" on his car, that's where I draw the line.

[orca1946]

SFTOM, go to a local site & post a line to see who will "talk" to you. Many people like to hear themselves, but a lot of us have real questions & want to talk to others in the swim area. I hope that you find some on line friends. Good luck

[SwimStud]

I'll allow colour, but if Stud starts discussing the "tyres" on his car, that's where I draw the line.

Oh don't be so dramatic...maybe you should try the theatre instead?

;)

[The Fortress]

Seriously though, there's no exclusive group, some folks have just met at meets and become friends. If you contribute and comment, you're as much a part of anything as the rest of us...especially if you enjoy a good yuck!

Aside from meeting people at meets, which is fabulous, I've "met" people on this forum who I swam against in meets as an age grouper, grew up practically next door to, and who are swimming in my age group pool in my home town with my old coach. It's a small world. :)

Someone just sent me this photo from a meet I swam in when I was 13:

[chaos]

new species of orchid pollinated exclusively by squirrel monkeys.

i'm gonna get drunk tonight and work this phrase into every conversation i have. (i will, of course, credit the author as my conscience requires)

[Shamboola]

In any endeavor, one will always find those who are obsessive-compulsive in their approach and those who slip in and out of the current with little thought to commitment of any kind.

These postings are a mirror of my Masters team: Some babble endlessly about their times as if they were still in college, while the vast majority are just happy to be swimming in their lanes with their lane buddies. And that is why I love swimming. It is a cross-section of some of the most honest people I know. Take em as they come on your terms and you will be just fine.

After all, it is pretty hard to keep any real secrets when we see each other in our underwear every day.

Rob

[scyfreestyler]

SFTom, how do you feel about poetry on swimming forums?

[sftom]

Wow, what an interesting course this thread has taken. I see, nonetheless, that at least a few folks share my concern about the content on the USMS discussion board. And I've received a couple of private messages noting that "a very small insular clique ... dominates the forum, regardless of the thread" and that differences of opinion are met with "harsh defense," to which the OP is often subjected after having been told how "friendly and welcoming" this forum is.

Is this really the face USMS wants to project to the public, and, more alarmingly, its own members? Do any of you who have responded to my original inquiry feel any sense of obligation to the organization at large, and do you think the content you add here furthers the purposes of USMS?

[aquageek]

Is this really the face USMS wants to project to the public, and, more alarmingly, its own members? Do any of you who have responded to my original inquiry feel any sense of obligation to the organization at large, and do you think the content you add here furthers the purposes of USMS?

Are you Dolphin 2 or Michael Heather in disguise? What gives? I feel a lot of obligation, as do most of the regular posters on this forum. Did you bother to read the thread about how many meets the regulars attend? I've never met a more welcoming group of people in my life. There are people I've met on this forum that are like old friends the first time we ever come face to face.

I've recruited many many people to USMS, some have even stayed despite that. What are you doing for USMS besides telling us all we are doing wrong? Out of curiosity are you a USMS member or just using the forum for free? Either way, we welcome you warmly.

[Paul Smith]

I've noticed from lurking around this board for several years that there seems to be a very self-congratulatory, cliquish tone to many threads and posts. It seems like it's often a small group of people who post relentlessly, as if they are engaged in some sort of private conversation where they're trying to outdo each other.(I won't give examples at this point, although I could.)

All true...and we tend to think "lurkers" are people who spend to much time alone, playing videogames and abusing small animals...then again that describes Geek pretty well also.

[Couroboros]

I'm new to swimming, but I'm not new to the internet and certainly not to messageboards. I'm definitely "inside" at the forum I consider my home on the internet (not this one, but who knows, maybe it will be someday), even though I don't actually feel "inside." Just consider that all these people who appear "clique-ish" aren't actually all in on all the same stuff, jokes, etc... When in Rome, do as Romans do, but that doesn't mean all the Romans like each other or they're all part of the same conspiracy to murder the latest Caesar or what have you... So it might sound ridiculous to some of these fine swimmers around here when you say they're all part of the same herd.

As for a stickied special thread just for lap swimming and fitness... what. Special "stickied" threads have been brought up from time to time at my home base and the big strike against them is that it's very easy to miss or ignore a sticky thread. And when you start stickying threads that aren't about rules or official announcements, then enters the question of where the line is drawn and that's a whole other headache right there. Plus, I tend not to like that "big block of bolded threads" up at the top of the forums that nobody ever clicks on. It's harder to tell when the latest response was and so on.

[quicksilver]

When in Rome, do as Romans do, but that doesn't mean all the Romans like each other or they're all part of the same conspiracy to murder the latest Caesar


As Jim said, you are very wise.

[jim thornton]

Mr. Couroboros and Mr. Sftom are both relatively new here.

One has come to save us. He is the One.

One has come to send us to perdition. He is the Other One.

To me, it is clear which is which.

There is a quality of a Stephen King novel to this thread.

Mr. Couroboros, we will meet you in Boulder.

Mr. Sftom, your minions will meet you in Las Vegas.

Then we shall see which serpent's tail is ultimately devoured.

[Couroboros]

So I'm a frail, decrepit, 108-year old woman named Abigail?

Awesome! :D

[The Fortress]

Do any of you who have responded to my original inquiry feel any sense of obligation to the organization at large, and do you think the content you add here furthers the purposes of USMS?

Yes.

But this is a discussion forum, not USMS magazine. We actually get to chat about stuff you don't like: meets, gridges, racing, evilstoke, tech suit hypocrisy, speed work, noodlers, shaving .001 off our 50s times, Clydesdales, and how we like our martinis. There is no requirement that we be quiet, dull, colorless, curmudgeonly and stick to straight peer reviewed facts, as you and Mr. Heather so desire. (Yes, I recognize his PM style having been subjected to his tirades before.) So we will both have to put up with each other.

Take the would be Cassius's advice. Now that one shows some promise. And he didn't take the huffy lurker approach. He just jumped in and announced he was "new" and started posting. What a concept.

[SwimStud]

Do any of you who have responded to my original inquiry feel any sense of obligation to the organization at large, and do you think the content you add here furthers the purposes of USMS?

Absolutely! I am not going to name them but several folks here came for advice and now compete, and yuck like the best of the cliquees.

The way I understand the goal, USMS just wants people to swim for life...fitness, competing or whatever you find in between. Don't have to go to nats. Want to go for fun and come last in your age group for a 50...you can do it. The door is open. So I think USMS want all of us. Yucksters, fitness swimmers and turnips.

Your perception of exclusion seems to be that you're not welcome, but that's probably because you're not a nice person and shunning happens a lot to you...oh well, you reap what you sow.

If you have an opinion that differs from many, yeah you'll get some loud responses but unless you get nasty they'll be cordial.

So why are you here?

Workout advice? http://forums.usms.org/forumdisplay.php?f=95

Open Water? http://forums.usms.org/forumdisplay.php?f=7

Got a vison for where USMS should go ?http://forums.usms.org/forumdisplay.php?f=98
(this has YOU stamped all over it!)

Are, Need or want to become a Coach? http://forums.usms.org/forumdisplay.php?f=8

OK so please, find the cliquish yucksters in those sections and report back.

I'll ask again though, so please, tell us, why are you here, and do you think Soccer is a big sport in the USA?

[aquageek]

I'll ask again though, so please, tell us, why are you here, and do you think Soccer is a big sport in the USA?

Is that your USA or my USA?

[The Fortress]

Is that your USA or my USA?

His USA.

[SwimStud]

I'll ask again though, so please, tell us, why are you here, and do you think Soccer is a big sport in the USA?

Is that your USA or my USA?

His USA.


...THE YUCKSTER CLIQUE HAS ISSUED THE FOLLOWING INSIDE JOKE ALERT...THIS IS NOT A DRILL...

...AN EXPLANATION OF THE ABOVE INSIDE JOKE CAN BE GARNERED BY DIGESTING THE FOLLOWING NSR THREAD...

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=10973

...THIS CONCLUDES THE YUCKSTER CLIQUE INSIDE JOKE ALERT...

[Allen Stark]

As was said earlier,this forum is the way "we' make it.One can post about anything (SR or NSR) and everyone will respond as they do.People are rarely outrightly rude.You should have seen how it was in 2002,nasty at times.

[qbrain]

So I'm a frail, decrepit, 108-year old woman named Abigail?

Awesome! :D

At least you make good fried chicken.

[qbrain]

Is this really the face USMS wants to project to the public, and, more alarmingly, its own members? Do any of you who have responded to my original inquiry feel any sense of obligation to the organization at large, and do you think the content you add here furthers the purposes of USMS?

I am the perfect face of USMS. Not only am I quite the physical specimen, I try to encourage people who don't work out to work out, people who work out to give swimming a try, people who swim to give master's a try, people who swim master's with me to swim meets with me and teach others about the competitive side of the sport.

sftom, you would hate me. I would, through evil peer pressure, try to persuade you to try something outside your comfort zone.

Hey sftom, try posting some good questions to the forum, or some good answers to some of the question already posted. Become the insider you so despise. (peer pressure)

[some_girl]

DAMMIT PEOPLE I LOVE YOU BUT I HAVE SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO SAY:

YUKSTER. YUKS. NO C.

Kthxbai.

[Paul Smith]

Hey sftom, try posting some good questions to the forum, or some good answers to some of the question already posted.(peer pressure)

Better yet....post a link to a video of your swimming and ask for tips.

Or....write a poem and share it with Leslie & Geek

Or....come to one of my workouts and lurk in an outside lane, post how much you hated it but avoid telling me in person

Or...kick the dog and play some more video games

[pwolf66]

Is that your USA or my USA?


Shhhhh, don't mention HIS name or HE might came back.

[The Fortress]

Shhhhh, don't mention HIS name or HE might came back.

He's too busy reading google scholar. In his absence, I've been rather deprived of creating straw men.

[pwolf66]

In his absence, I've been rather deprived on creating straw men.


And setting them on fire :afraid:

[The Fortress]

And setting them on fire :afraid:

But he allegedly has me on "ignore," so he doesn't know I'm deprived.

Although I have to say, Quicksilver's comment on that thread toward the end was truly inspired. (CF: "Do you have anything to contribute? QS: "Posh Spice has fake boobs.") I was ROFL at that.

[SwimStud]

I think we should actually be grateful to sftom as if it wasn't for him that marvellous thread would be collecting dust instead of appeaing here at the end of the year just in time for the Academy voting on the Threadies.

I definitely think "Euro 2008" has award potential at the threadies for the multi-start cast (a bit like one of those 70's diaster moves with Ernest Borgnine, Shelley Winters and George Kennedy playing a profusely sweating character).
:cake:

[Michael Heather]

As was said earlier,this forum is the way "we' make it.One can post about anything (SR or NSR) and everyone will respond as they do.People are rarely outrightly rude.You should have seen how it was in 2002,nasty at times.

Allen,

This very thread shows just how wrong you are about being rude. Some of the posters have been blatant and unapologetic with their rudeness.

Challenging a new member of the DF to post something meaningful hardly creates a welcoming atmosphere.

Mocking his observations or questions with snide remarks and insinuations is not really what the reasonable person would perceive as friendly.

Referring to someone who is lurking as something less than equal is far less than fair.

Gee folks, how about a little introspection? Does anyone read their posts before they punch the send button? It is hard to believe the acid that is posted sometimes.

The DF is not a place for alienating behavior, but the perpetrators do not believe that is the result of their actions. I am a lightning rod for some posters' wrath and they see my posts a a wet blanket, or worse, a parent's admonition. I am frankly shocked that I didn't get the "Holier than thou" handle hung on me long ago. Or maybe I did.

These forums are intended to help educate those looking for swimming knowledge by putting new members with questions together with a large pool (pun not intended, but accepted) of coaches and swimmers who want to share their experience for the good of the sport. It's that simple. Can't we all just get along?

[aquageek]

Can't we all just get along?

I don't know, after 4 paragraphs from you telling us how rude the rest of us are, you then request we all be nice. Yes, holier than thou does seem appropriate in this case.

[jim thornton]

they see my posts a a wet blanket, or worse, a parent's admonition.


Sorry, Dad.

[gobears]

Not that I'm the expert on message boards, but, the ones I visit require a decent amount of thick skin, most of the time. I haven't been on any where posters are delicately answering questions without any sarcasm or humor. The original poster's tone was condemning in his initial post and that invited the same kind of response. Part of the way you get to be "an insider" (if there really is such a thing) is by bantering back and forth and being able to take a little ribbing (or at least argue back)!

[quicksilver]

Sorry, Dad.

It Takes a Village To Raise a Child.

[JimRude]

Allen,

This very thread shows just how wrong you are about being rude. Some of the posters have been blatant and unapologetic with their rudeness.

Challenging a new member of the DF to post something meaningful hardly creates a welcoming atmosphere.

Mocking his observations or questions with snide remarks and insinuations is not really what the reasonable person would perceive as friendly.

Referring to someone who is lurking as something less than equal is far less than fair.

Gee folks, how about a little introspection? Does anyone read their posts before they punch the send button? It is hard to believe the acid that is posted sometimes.

The DF is not a place for alienating behavior, but the perpetrators do not believe that is the result of their actions. I am a lightning rod for some posters' wrath and they see my posts a a wet blanket, or worse, a parent's admonition. I am frankly shocked that I didn't get the "Holier than thou" handle hung on me long ago. Or maybe I did.

These forums are intended to help educate those looking for swimming knowledge by putting new members with questions together with a large pool (pun not intended, but accepted) of coaches and swimmers who want to share their experience for the good of the sport. It's that simple. Can't we all just get along?

Sounds like BS to me...

[The Fortress]

Sounds like BS to me...

Sounds as puritanical as Savonarola to me.

And what "wrath" is he talking about? I thought we were yucksters. Definitely nothing on the forums worth getting in a lather about.

[gull]

And what "wrath" is he talking about? I thought we were yucksters. Definitely nothing on the forums worth getting in a lather about.

He stopped taking his medication again.

[Chicken of the Sea]

It takes an Idiot to raise an village.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjWYHeg8_5I&NR=1

[jim thornton]

Father, forgive them! They know not what they do.

PS It's that time of the year when parents tend to give their kids, well, you know...presents. Where should I send the routing information for my bank, Dad?

Your favorite unruly child and spiritual leader,

Jimmy

[Michael Heather]

sftom,

You now see what I meant in my first post.


To the rest of the posters who responded to my last post,

Thank you.

[aquageek]

To the rest of the posters who responded to my last post,

Thank you.

You got beat up a lot in grade school, I'd put money on it.

[thewookiee]

You got beat up a lot in grade school, I'd put money on it.

Spoken like the voice of experience.


There are a lot of wonderful people on this forum that are very welcoming to newbies. If people want to swim for fitnesss or compete, everyone is welcomed.

If you think people are this forum are rude, go look at some other swimming forums. That will redefine rude. The moderators do a good job of not letting these forums get too personal(trust me here) But when someone comes in making statements that come across as challenging or less than informed about the sport we love, people will challenge them about their comments. Maybe they do come across as rude, but when someone makes a "HTT" :angel: statement, forumites aren't going to drop to their knees and bow to the poster.:bow:

Even the regulars disagree with each other on posts. Doesn't mean we are being rude or that we dislike each other, but we are defending our opinions.

If Stud and Geek haven't run everyone off by now, then it shows we all can enjoy the forum, despite these two. :bump:

[knelson]

Mocking his observations or questions with snide remarks and insinuations is not really what the reasonable person would perceive as friendly.

Probably not, but since he's coming in telling us how much the place sucks do you expect us to drop by his house with a plate of cookies?

[thewookiee]

Probably not, but since he's coming in telling us how much the place sucks do you expect us to drop by his house with a plate of cookies?

Well, if there are laxatives in the cookies, they could be dropped off for him.

[Red60]

By now it's possible to map the progress of this thread: provocative introductory statement & question; pushback with mocking jollity; provocative restatement drawing on mockery as evidence; accelerating meta-mockery culminating in a cloud of haze(ing).

Perhaps this thread has run its course. It seems pretty clear that Mssrs. Tom and Heather do not like the rhetorical atmosphere on this forum. Likewise it is also clear that the home crowd likes it just fine.

From my perspective, I will say that I have gotten a great deal out of the forum, but have very little personal connection to anybody on it. I met Anna Lea Roof (now Matsyek) and Jim Matsyek at a meet, but's that's pretty much it.

Admittedly, I did get a few posts removed for extra-aquatic commentary during the whole Obama Big Shoulders tee-shirt controversy, so maybe I'm tempermentally a little more of a jouster than some. I like the back and forth, though a fair amount of it sails over my head since I am still somewhat new to Masters and the forum.

But plainly, persuasion is not occurring.

Motion for adjournment.

Second?

[pwolf66]

Heck, I'll third that sucker. Let's go get a beer!!!!!!

[chaos]

Admittedly, I did get a few posts removed for extra-aquatic commentary during the whole Obama Big Shoulders tee-shirt controversy, so maybe I'm tempermentally a little more of a jouster than some. I like the back and forth, though a fair amount of it sails over my head since I am still somewhat new to Masters and the forum.


i consider post removal a right of passage. congrats.

[thewookiee]

Heck, I'll third that sucker. Let's go get a beer!!!!!!

Wolf,

I will see your third and raise you a fifth to go along with your beer and some shots of shine

[Jayhawk]

:chug:__ :chug:__:chug:
______:drink:______:drink:
__________:wine:

[Red60]

Wolf & Wookie: I am so there. Barkeep, a round for the house! Thornton's buying.

:chug:

Chaos, thanks for the rite of passage concept--I like that!

Anna Lea, sorry I mangled "Matysek." And nice emoticon sculpture, or whatever you'd call that...

[hofffam]

I like cars, technology, Texas A&M, and swimming.

Nothing is as brutal as a Texas A&M football message board right now - since they are terrible.

And cars message boards can be ridiculous - especially when the under 25 nitrous oxide crowd writes with an apparent 8th grade writing level - and show how small their world is.

So this thread has been interesting to follow.

On one hand I think the original poster is whining a bit. Because there are many threads on this board where a non-hardcore swimmer gets lots of support. High school swimmers come here looking for advice. As a parent of high school age kids I find that remarkable.

There IS a good sized group of regulars here - and some seem to revel in their status here. That's OK too most of the time.

So all things considered this board has room for everyone - including sftom. Dolphin 2 keeps coming back and I don't know why.

I do think this board needs to break up "General" a bit more. Maybe a "General Masters swimming" and a "General non-Masters swimming" for starters so the NCAA discussions (for example) can move to another section.

The board could also loosen up the moderation a bit so the Off Topic section would get more life. It might be fun to hear Elise' view of California Prop 8 for example.

[poolraat]

In the last few weeks I've seen two new members on this forum and noticed the difference in how the others interact with them. One comes here with an attitude, whining about the cliques and inside jokes and so on and basically created his own "outsider" situation. The other just jumped right in, " Hi guys, I'm new to swimming and could use some advice. Can you help?" He is rapidly becoming an accepted part of this forum.

We were all outsiders at one time, for me, first it was swimming since I began as a fitness swimmer in my late forties. Then as an outsider on this forum when I joined a little more than 2 years ago. This forum has helped me to become a better swimmer, I've made connections with other forum members here that led to us actually meeting at swim meets and becoming friends.

This forum and swimming is what you make of it. You come with a chip on your shoulder and a "nobody loves me" attitude and guess what? You reap what you sow.

[Mookie]

'Drinks, for all my friends' (stolen from Mickey Rourke in 'Barfly')

[chaos]

'Drinks, for all my friends' (stolen from Mickey Rourke in 'Barfly')

love the quote (but i think it should include: Eddie,)
love the movie
love the screenwriter btw... great documentary 'bout him http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0342150/

the jury is still out on mickey (i haven't seen the wrestler yet)

[jim thornton]

By now it's possible to map the progress of this thread: provocative introductory statement & question; pushback with mocking jollity; provocative restatement drawing on mockery as evidence; accelerating meta-mockery culminating in a cloud of haze(ing).

Perhaps this thread has run its course.

As brilliant as Mr. Red60's analysis of this thread has been to date, I think he is missing the big picture. The 150+ posts so far, rather than together representing a fine narrative arc whose time has come and passed, in reality reflect merely the Preamble to the Prelude to the Introduction.

We are not even close to the first chapter, which students of history will perceive at a glance begins to sketch out the nature of the conflict between Authoritarian Killjoys and Beatific Bon Vivants. This is followed by the 100 Years War, the recruiting of Frost Giants, Ragnarok, descent into Anti-Matter where the Bon Vivants become Authoritarian and the Killjoys Beatific, pressing the envelope of the Mythical First Cause, etc.

This thread will end only when human history itself ends.

Our adversaries may be hard to take, but they are worthy!

[gull]

Jim, I'll have what you're having. Make it a double.

[elise526]

I guess it is official that I cannot escape my designation as the Traditional Lifestyle Patrol. Well, I'll admit that I'm flattered that Hofffam thought about me. I suppose that I have no choice but to revel in my role as TLP.

Jim T., you must have a name for an individual who interned for Ted Kennedy and has now become the USMS version of Dr. Laura.

[jim thornton]

Elise, we simply refer to such people as a

SWHLHWBWTTOTSLCBS.*



*She Who Has Lost Her Way But With The Tutelage Of The Spiritual Leader Can Be Saved.

[jim thornton]

Gull, for what it's worth, I'm drinking a double of NyQuil Cold and Flu, Cherry-Flavored, straight up. To have a double of my double, simply purchase the 6 oz. size bottle and drain the whole thing. I recommend a Sonata chaser. Since I became a teetotaler several years ago, this is as close as my sober conscience will allow me to relive the glories of a Depth Charge. It does, alas, leave something of a headbanger of a hangover, which is why I can't wait till bedtime to indulge in some hair of the dog.

Unless....

I think I feel a sniffle coming on.

Yes!

That is a definite sniffle!

To the medicine chest!

[The Fortress]

Elise, we simply refer to such people as a

SWHLHWBWTTOTSLCBS.*



*She Who Has Lost Her Way But With The Tutelage Of The Spiritual Leader Can Be Saved.

Much much longer than the simple HWMNBN.*



He who must not be named.

(Sorry, couldn't resist. Insider joke.)

[elise526]

Much much longer than the simple HWMNBN.*



He who must not be named.

(Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Oh, dear! Don't relegate me to that status!

[jim thornton]

"If you're not liberal when you're young, then you don't have a heart. If you're not conservative when you're old, then you don't have a head."
- Unknown

I thought that was one of Sir Winston's quotes. I know he said that he'd rather have sexual relations with a horde of Huns than a woman with a rolling pin. But he put this much more delicately. His exact quote:

Nancy Astor: “Sir, if you were my husband, I would give you my rolling pin.”
Churchill: “If I were your husband I would feed a crocodile in the hopes it will eat me first." Whereupon he quickly added, "History will be kind to me for I intend to right it."

[elise526]

I thought that was one of Sir Winston's quotes. I know he said that he'd rather have sexual relations with a horde of Huns than a woman with a rolling pin. But he put this much more delicately. His exact quote:

Nancy Astor: “Sir, if you were my husband, I would give you my rolling pin.”
Churchill: “If I were your husband I would feed a crocodile in the hopes it will eat me first." Whereupon he quickly added, "History will be kind to me for I intend to right it."

Ah, but you are right. The poor fellow's quote has gotten bastardized over the years. I will correct my signature to give credit where it is due and to put the proper quote in which is as follows:

"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has no heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."

Swimstud will be so proud that I quoted one of his own. I should note that there is a dispute among scholars as to whether Churchill actually made the above statement.

[jim thornton]

"That is the wonderful thing about masters swimming. Unless you are a real slacker during workouts, your biological age will remain under 30 until you die from unnatural causes.

"Or, to put it another way, any swimmer who is conservative at any point in his or her life is lazy."

--Sir Winston Churchill

Note: there is no dispute about whether he said THAT.

[Peter Cruise]

Jim, I think Hunter Thompson would have found you disturbing...

[aquageek]

elise's new avatar is awesome.

[SwimStud]

elise's new avatar is awesome.

Yeah, Mrs Stud pulled that face at me this morning!

[pwolf66]

Jim, I think Hunter Thompson would have found you disturbing...


Now, THAT is a statement :bliss:

[thewookiee]

Yeah, Mrs Stud pulled that face at me this morning!

So Stud, who actually wears the "pants" in your relationship then?

[jim thornton]

I think the question John is so delicately hemming and hawing over is this: Whose rolling pin is bigger, yours or Mrs. Swimstud's?