Help! My Hypoxic Capacity is Horrible!

[SaltySwimmer]

I've been wanting to start this thread for a while-- we have one about flutter kicking, SDK, and speed. If I may be so bold, I'd like to see one on how to improve your capacity for hypoxic sets.

After getting back into swimming about 4 months ago, I have noticed a decrease in my ability to handle hypoxic sets, and in general, in my ability to stay underwater for any significant length of time. I find myself trying to get to the surface as soon as possible after turning at the wall so I can get some air. I know this is slowing me down significantly.

As for breathing while actually swimming, I seem to have no problems-- I am pretty much a bilateral breather (every three strokes). It's when I'm coming into the wall or leaving the wall where I have problems, as I can't seem to hold my breath and am always breaking the cardinal rule of not breathing while in the "red zone."

We do at least one hypoxic set per day, and not surprisingly, I usually have problems (although I do try to make it).

Any tips for how to improve, or does this just come with practice and increased aerobic capacity?

[The Fortress]

Stud started a similar thread awhile ago:

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=9869&highlight=hypoxic+workouts

[thewookiee]

This one of those topics that have believer and doubters about the value of hypoxic swimming.
A couple of thoughts. Instead of taking your last breath before the turn, somewhere outside the flags, take your last breath right as you pass under the flags. This will give you plenty of time to get the head back down before the turn, plus you will get one more breath before you disappear under the water for a bit.
Another idea that may work even better, instead of holding your breath as you turn and come off the wall, make sure you are exhaling into the water. Don't blow everything out at one time, but make it a gradual exhale. You may find that your lungs are screaming as bad for air, since you will be getting rid of more of the bad stuff in the lungs.
One thing we use to do in practice was called "Tennessee Turns" Swim to the flags, as your approach the flags, grab a quick breath, then go completely underwater to the wall, turn, push off and don't breath until you get past the flags again.
From a mental standpoint, if you develop that trick, you may find it becoming easier on you while actually swimming into and out of the turns.

[Jazz Hands]

Hypoxic training is not useful, and there is no such thing as hypoxic capacity.

[anita]

Stud started a similar thread awhile ago:

http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=9869&highlight=hypoxic+workouts

Thank you for posting this link.
The sets posted by Jayhawk, Rob Copeland and Steve Ruiter look great.

[That Guy]

I feel tempted to make up a bunch of crap about hypoxic threshold or whatever, but I won't. Jazz is right.

[Chris Stevenson]

Hypoxic training is not useful, and there is no such thing as hypoxic capacity.

Hypoxic training is useful.

Hypoxic capacity, as a human concept, is whatever we define it to be.

[BillS]

It's when I'm coming into the wall or leaving the wall where I have problems, as I can't seem to hold my breath and am always breaking the cardinal rule of not breathing while in the "red zone."



Not to oversimplify this, but lately I have been consciously thinking about taking a deep breath on my last breath before each turn. When I remember to do it, and when I am able get a good, deep breath, my turns are a lot crisper and it's substantially easier to keep my head down on the first stroke.

I think it's fairly easy to get into a pattern of shallow, rhythmic breathing while swimming, even while swimming fairly fast. If turns break that rhythm, you can find yourself out of breath in pretty short order.

[swim25]

Hypoxic training is not useful, and there is no such thing as hypoxic capacity.

Explain

[Chris Stevenson]

Explain

You can just read the original thread that Fortress linked; I don't believe JH's thinking on the subject has developed much since then.

Of course, there are also studies that show that lifting weights doesn't help swimming either, and I don't believe he pays much attention to those... :)

For myself: the farther I can swim underwater without severe oxygen debt, the faster the swim will be. Since there is no air underwater, that means learning to swim fast without it for portions of the race. That doesn't JUST HAPPEN unless you work on it in practice. David Berkoff himself talked about how his training had to change significantly once he started emphasizing underwater kicks in his races.

I notice the age group coaches at my pool are empahsizing this even at an early age ("four dolphin kicks before surfacing!" and the like). Saying hypoxic work is useless is about as true -- and outdated -- as saying dolphin kicking is useless.

[Jazz Hands]

You can just read the original thread that Fortress linked; I don't believe JH's thinking on the subject has developed much since then.

My thinking? There's very little thinking involved, actually. I found fairly recent and comprehensive review of hypoxic training studies, read the relevant section, and came to the same conclusion as the authors of the review: It doesn't do a damn thing.

Since there's absolutely no evidence that hypoxic training reliably increases aerobic capacity in any way, your subjective opinion that you can somehow train yourself to not go into oxygen debt is wrong. There are two ways to avoid oxygen debt: breathe more and become more aerobically efficient. Holding your breath obviously isn't the former, and there's a ton of evidence that it doesn't affect the latter. Not useful.

[The Fortress]

My thinking? There's very little thinking involved, actually. I found fairly recent and comprehensive review of hypoxic training studies, read the relevant section, and came to the same conclusion as the authors of the review: It doesn't do a damn thing.

Since there's absolutely no evidence that hypoxic training reliably increases aerobic capacity in any way, your subjective opinion that you can somehow train yourself to not go into oxygen debt is wrong. There are two ways to avoid oxygen debt: breathe more and become more aerobically efficient. Holding your breath obviously isn't the former, and there's a ton of evidence that it doesn't affect the latter. Not useful.

So, Jazz, when you're practicing no breather 50s, that's just breath holding practice so you'll be used to not breathing at race time? You don't think you're training your body to tolerate oxygen debt better? Or is there really no oxygen debt on a 50?

[Jazz Hands]

So, Jazz, when you're practicing no breather 50s, that's just breath holding practice so you'll be used to not breathing at race time? You don't think you're training your body to tolerate oxygen debt better? Or is there really no oxygen debt on a 50?

I actually don't do those anymore. I had a bad experience holding my breath at Nationals this summer.

Anyway, as I said, oxygen isn't really the issue. It's just the psychological tolerance of the carbon dioxide. If you want to get better at underwater kicking, underwater kicking would be a great way to do that, but it's total ******** to say that there's some "hypoxic capacity" that must be developed. The evidence for that just doesn't exist.

[Jazz Hands]

Here's something I noticed about the hypoxic sets in the other thread: they are way way way too long and slow. I think this about most sets, but holding your breath is a situation-specific skill, and the situations you want to be prepared for are race situations: high power output in a short period of time. If what you want is to make it halfway underwater on each length of an all-out 200 back, why you would swim thousands of yards breathing every 7 strokes or whatever? Does anyone really think that's adequate preparation? It's just a total waste of time.

[Blackbeard's Peg]

It's just the psychological tolerance of the carbon dioxide.

I'm in agreement with Jazz about this. I'm sure there are ways to "increase capacity," but I think most of this is in our heads. As we practice this type of training, we just become more efficient at breathing out CO2 and breathing in more O2 - and as Jazz points out, more tolerant of the pain of CO2.

[Allen Stark]

I think JH is right about"hypoxic capacity",at least as far as he swimming literature is concerned.Two things though,first,train like you want to race.If you are oing to do 8 SDKs/length,then do that in practice.Second,does anyone know how the deep free divers train?

[The Fortress]

I'm in agreement with Jazz about this. I'm sure there are ways to "increase capacity," but I think most of this is in our heads. As we practice this type of training, we just become more efficient at breathing out CO2 and breathing in more O2 - and as Jazz points out, more tolerant of the pain of CO2.

Well, as a purely unscientific matter, I certainly feel this way lately. I have been unable to "increase capacity" and stay underwater kicking longer. Thought maybe it was age. But I just can't seem to get any further kicking underwater. It's likely that my SDK just has not improved, or even gotten worse. And I'm not all that fond of CO2 pain. I'd rather practice kicking at a high intensity level and/or do lactate pain.

As for freestyle, I never do any hypoxic work whatsoever.

[Blackbeard's Peg]

Yeah, I know everyone is looking for scientific evidence on this topic, but all I've got is personal experience.
Fort, I have the same distance problem - I come up at 14M no matter how hard (or not hard) I try.

[Syd]

It's just the psychological tolerance of the carbon dioxide.

This is why you need to practice doing SDK's in training. If you don't you will be gasping for breath in competition. You have to train yourself to tolerate the co2.

But you should get yourself timed and make sure that you are actually faster under the water. You might find that your SDK's are not powerful enough and that you would be better off surfacing earlier. I had myself timed about a year back and found that my time actually increased when I went over 2 SDK's per length. That was quite an eye opener for me. Not everyone is equally good at SDK'ing Doesn't mean that you have to give up on it. The more you practice, the better you will get. It might just mean that you will have to delay it as a competition tactic until a later date.

[Chris Stevenson]

My thinking? There's very little thinking involved, actually. I found fairly recent and comprehensive review of hypoxic training studies, read the relevant section, and came to the same conclusion as the authors of the review: It doesn't do a damn thing.

Except unlike both you and the authors of whatever review you are talking about, I have personal experience on the matter. And I've observed many other swimmers attempt this: If you train to do two kicks per turn in practice, and then try to do 10 kicks on every turn in a meet, IT DOESN"T WORK very well and you die like a dog.

And please don't regale me with tales of how you used to do 3-5-7 hypoxic drills when you were young and got nothing from them (I don't do such drills either, BTW). You swim 50s; it isn't the same as training to take 8 kicks underwater on the 7th turn of a 200.

You can call it a psychological or a physiological adaptation: the effect is exactly the same. If you practice it, you are able to go further underwater in a race.

So I'm not going to wait for the science to catch up with what I know is true from my own personal experience, which is pretty extensive on this topic. And there are other reasons I like to do hypoxic training besides adaptation, which I won't repeat b/c I said them in the other thread.

[That Guy]

Except unlike both you and the authors of whatever review you are talking about, I have personal experience on the matter. And I've observed many other swimmers attempt this: If you train to do two kicks per turn in practice, and then try to do 10 kicks on every turn in a meet, IT DOESN"T WORK very well and you die like a dog.

And please don't regale me with tales of how you used to do 3-5-7 hypoxic drills when you were young and got nothing from them (I don't do such drills either, BTW). You swim 50s; it isn't the same as training to take 8 kicks underwater on the 7th turn of a 200.

You can call it a psychological or a physiological adaptation: the effect is exactly the same. If you practice it, you are able to go further underwater in a race.

So I'm not going to wait for the science to catch up with what I know is true from my own personal experience, which is pretty extensive on this topic. And there are other reasons I like to do hypoxic training besides adaptation, which I won't repeat b/c I said them in the other thread.

Well at the beginning of this thread I thought we were talking about the useless 3-5-7-9 drills because when most people say "hypoxic" in the sport of swimming, that's what they mean. I do endorse SDK's and I try to train just like I compete. My SDK count has slowly crept up over the years, indicative of some adaptation.

[Blackbeard's Peg]

Hypoxic stuff is good for warmdowns... we have a couple of coaches who will give us a set of 50s at the end of workout, working our way down 1 breath at a time until we get to 2 breaths per 50.

[Chris Stevenson]

Hypoxic stuff is good for warmdowns... we have a couple of coaches who will give us a set of 50s at the end of workout, working our way down 1 breath at a time until we get to 2 breaths per 50.

Sometimes I like them for warmups, too. Or for working on increasing efficiency.

[Iwannafly]

As a somewhat beginning swimmer, I find that the boring 3-5-7 hypoxic sets FORCE me to work on efficiency in my stroke. When I started swimming it took me 22-25 strokes per 25 yards and there was certainly no way I could breathe every 7th stroke while splashing around that way. When we did (or do) hypoxic sets, I had to force myself to concentrate on keeping a long stroke and rolling from my core in order to finish the assigned set. Not that I have a very efficient stroke, but my stroke count is down to 14-16 per 25 yards. So, there IS value in hypoxic sets depending on what you want to get out of them.

[SaltySwimmer]

Well at the beginning of this thread I thought we were talking about the useless 3-5-7-9 drills because when most people say "hypoxic" in the sport of swimming, that's what they mean. I do endorse SDK's and I try to train just like I compete. My SDK count has slowly crept up over the years, indicative of some adaptation.

I guess I should have clarified. By wanting to improve my "hypoxic capacity" I do not mean that I want to improve my capacity for hypoxic sets; what I mean is that I want to be able to to stay underwater for greater lengths of time so I can work on holding streamline longer, do SDKs off the turn, and not "rush" my first pull (which I tend to do). I would be considered at somewhat of a "starting point" in this respect, since I just returned to swimming (after doing age group when I was a kid) only 3 1/2 months ago. So far my technique and endurance have improved immensely; now I'd like to start working on the finer details (such as referenced above).

Also, I apologize if I opened up a can of worms by using the term "hypoxic." I didn't realize this was such a controversial subject! (We always did hypoxic sets when I was a kid, and didn't know that people are now questioning their effectiveness.)

[Chris Stevenson]

I guess I should have clarified. By wanting to improve my "hypoxic capacity" I do not mean that I want to improve my capacity for hypoxic sets; what I mean is that I want to be able to to stay underwater for greater lengths of time so I can work on holding streamline longer, do SDKs off the turn, and not "rush" my first pull (which I tend to do). I would be considered at somewhat of a "starting point" in this respect, since I just returned to swimming (after doing age group when I was a kid) only 3 1/2 months ago. So far my technique and endurance have improved immensely; now I'd like to start working on the finer details (such as referenced above).

You should consider it a long-term project. I am still trying to improve my distance/effectiveness off the walls even after working on it for many years.

Start small: have a goal of X minimum number of kicks (even, say, 2 dolphin kicks) off each wall in a practice and STICK TO IT for all your swims in practice. When that feels comfortable -- easy, even -- then increase it to 3, etc. It may be months or even a year before you are comfortable and ready to move to the next level (though hopefully improvement will be faster at first).

Doing "shooters" 25s -- fast underwater no-breathers, holding very tight streamline -- should help too. If you can't make it all the way without taking a breath, make it as far as you can, surface and kick HARD the rest of the way in. Try to increase the distance (or number of kicks) you can do before taking a breath on a given interval. Make sure you get good rest; I would suggest a 50% duty cycle (ie, an interval that is double your typical time) as a starting point. Use fins if you must but do not become overly dependent on them; you should be able to do the set without fins too.

Certainly increasing basic CV conditioning and core strength will also help.