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new
February 7th, 2009, 05:04 PM
Hard sets with short rest intervals have the same issue, after a while your technique starts to decrease, and your tired body is not responding so well.

I wonder if is worth it to scarify technique for endurance or endurance for technique.

The obvious answer: “well, it depends on where you are and your goals”. Please don’t

I think crazy hard endurance with bad technique occasionally is a very good thing, but if you always do it that way you will eventually get use to bad technique, but if you concentrate too much on technique while you suppose to go very fast, you won’t get that extra for muscle.

For example, let’s say this set must be done with very short rest

12 x 25 fly
2 x 200 IM
3 x 100 breast
2 x 200 IM
4 x 75 back
2 x200 IM

My point, Is really hard to keep good technique on those second 200 IMs, but if I’m looking for endurance you have to go fast...

What do you think about adding easy swims?

12 x 25 fly
100 EZ
2 x 200 IM
100 EZ
3 x 100 breast
100 EZ
2 x 200 IM
100 EZ
4 x 75 back
100 EZ
2 x200 IM

It would be much faster (speed), better technique, but…not so “hard” (I’m thinking of endurance), like adding more rest.


You can work on technique or endurance any time, but the key thing while racing is to maintain good technique at high speed during a long period.

How do you deal with endurance vs technique?

Allen Stark
February 7th, 2009, 05:17 PM
My point of view is sacrificing technique is never a good idea.Some times you must work on endurance.When I am doing those sets I do something to tell my body that this is different.I use a snorkel or fins or do BR pull with dolphin kick or something.I read once that it is easier to learn something new if it is taught as different rather than a modification. There was a study of teaching starts where swimmers did starts and one group got coaching in the standard way of giving tips and the other group was told"we are going to teach you a new start" and told them essentially the same tips,but had them practice their old start and the "new" start.The second group did much better.For this reason,if I am not going race pace I have some cue to let me know that what I am doing is different.

orca1946
February 7th, 2009, 07:09 PM
Depending on the swimmers age, ez is a good way to keep technique in place during hard sets!

pwb
February 7th, 2009, 07:14 PM
My point of view is sacrificing technique is never a good idea.

I totally agree. For this reason:


I rarely do a lot of fly in workouts full stroke.
Most of my endurance oriented work is freestyle and, when I do feel myself "losing it" with respect to technique, I'd choose to slow down and miss an interval while trying to correct my stroke versus just pounding out.

My single biggest change in the last 6 months of swimming has been to try to constantly bring my mind back to technique throughout workout. I do get a non-Zen "monkey mind" and forget this quite often, but I just keep trying (when I become aware I've lost it again) to re-direct my focus back to technique.

That Guy
February 8th, 2009, 12:06 AM
I totally agree. For this reason:


I rarely do a lot of fly in workouts full stroke.
You can swim lots of fly, but you have to give yourself enough rest that you don't break down, and you have to be willing to call it a day if you do break down. One time I started swimming 50 flys on 1:00 with no defined end point. I swam most of them in 33 seconds, so my rest-to-swim ratio was almost 1:1. By the 24th 50 I had started breaking down so I stopped. (Hey that's 1200 fly, not a shabby number!) By that time I was also a bit bored...

In recent months I've focused on speed over distance, but I've also banned sets of 25's.* For example, today my fly set was 4x75 on 2:00. I went 49, 48, 47-mid, 47-flat. That's only 300 fly but it's faster, and descending is cool. :banana:

Side note here, in the spirit of not stomping on Ande's thread any more: to keep descending, I had to do almost everything right for the whole 4th 75:

I couldn't just rely on my legs; I had to use my hips to generate my biggest kicks. And every single kick had to be big. This is the locomotive in fly! **
EVF - I tried to position my elbows just below the surface, and get them to 90 degrees before each pull (or what feels like 90 degrees to me)
when those two things actually happen correctly, it's an alien sensation - it feels like there's a slingshot shooting me through the water! It is freakin exhausting though

*unless the 25's are part of a progression, e.g. 3x75, 3x50, 3x25. Sets like 20x25 are banned!
**please note that I did not use that word that rhymes with "score" since after all, there isn't even agreement on this forum about what it is, much less what it does :argue:. "score"..."toxic"..."scion"...:bolt:

Syd
February 8th, 2009, 09:42 AM
[/list]


In recent months I've focused on speed over distance, but I've also banned sets of 25's.*

Just interested why you aren't swimming the 25's anymore. Is it because you think it is inadequate preparation for the longer events? There are probably others who will disagree but I am of the belief that you can't train for 100 fly solely on a diet of 25's. At some stage or other you have to actually get in there and go the distance you are going to race.

I could swim 25's fly almost endlessly (well you know what I mean :D - I certainly have no problem swimming 25's for at least half an hour), but every time I swim a 100 in practice I die on that last 25. I just don't swim enough of them to be confident about racing the distance. Only raced it once as a kid and never finished the distance. I was disqualified for doing one arm fly!! I hated fly as a kid but since I got back into swimming as a master I am absolutely hooked on it. I just have to get my fly fix everyday! I am willing to accept that it might be psychological but even if it is just for that reason alone, I feel it is important to do the longer distances in practice, too.

geochuck
February 8th, 2009, 10:42 AM
If you use MaxVo2 sets and proper intervals you should not lose technique.

That Guy
February 8th, 2009, 03:21 PM
Just interested why you aren't swimming the 25's anymore. Is it because you think it is inadequate preparation for the longer events? There are probably others who will disagree but I am of the belief that you can't train for 100 fly solely on a diet of 25's. At some stage or other you have to actually get in there and go the distance you are going to race.

I could swim 25's fly almost endlessly (well you know what I mean :D - I certainly have no problem swimming 25's for at least half an hour), but every time I swim a 100 in practice I die on that last 25. I just don't swim enough of them to be confident about racing the distance. Only raced it once as a kid and never finished the distance. I was disqualified for doing one arm fly!! I hated fly as a kid but since I got back into swimming as a master I am absolutely hooked on it. I just have to get my fly fix everyday! I am willing to accept that it might be psychological but even if it is just for that reason alone, I feel it is important to do the longer distances in practice, too.

Well I'm not going to say that 25 flys are inadequate preparation for the 200, but I will say that doing longer stuff instead is better preparation. I was using sets of 25's as a crutch on days when I was tired. I had to stop doing that.

nkfrench
February 8th, 2009, 04:48 PM
Hard sets with short rest intervals have the same issue, after a while your technique starts to decrease, and your tired body is not responding so well.


As I tire I pay much more attention to my technique and try to "finesse" the repeats than if I were feeling fresh and energetic. So I am much more motivated on sets that go beyond my comfort zone.

art_z
February 9th, 2009, 02:47 PM
[/LIST]You can swim lots of fly, but you have to give yourself enough rest that you don't break down, and you have to be willing to call it a day if you do break down. One time I started swimming 50 flys on 1:00 with no defined end point. I swam most of them in 33 seconds, so my rest-to-swim ratio was almost 1:1. By the 24th 50 I had started breaking down so I stopped. (Hey that's 1200 fly, not a shabby number!) By that time I was also a bit bored...:

This is a good idea, and I did a similar approach when I was training for the 200 fly last year, which was basically a VO2 set:

10x25 on 30
5x50 on 1:00
4x75 on 1:30
2x100 on 2:00
=1k fly

or

10x25 on 30
5x50 on 1:00
4x75 on 1:30
5x50 on 1:00
10x25 on 30
=1,300 fly

I found my fly endurance increase greatly after doing this type of set every weekend (Sat and Sunday morning) for a few weeks getting from the point of taking a minute rest in between each set the first time time around, to doing it continiously within 2 weeks. The goal of each repeat is to keep the same pace and same stroke count per 25 regardless of total distance. So if you take 10 strokes and 17 seconds for the 25s, you should do 20 strokes, 34 seconds for the 50, etc.

jim clemmons
February 9th, 2009, 03:08 PM
What works well (for me) is 200's. 150 free finishing with a 50 fly so you're swimming it tired.

It's easy to swim fly when you're not tired.

That Guy
February 9th, 2009, 10:46 PM
What works well (for me) is 200's. 150 free finishing with a 50 fly so you're swimming it tired.

It's easy to swim fly when you're not tired.

You think I wasn't tired on that last descending 75?!? :) Another recent example was 5x100 fly on 3:00 descending...

I do 200 flys and 400 IMs in practice periodically to keep myself honest. :banana: No, wait, that's not right. :badday: Yeah, that's the ticket!