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View Full Version : back-to-breast transition - any advice?



gigi
February 7th, 2009, 09:02 PM
All the other transitions seem pretty straight-forward to me, and I think I get off the wall pretty quickly on those, but for some reason I feel like I'm hanging on the wall too long on the back-to-breast and I just know I'm doing something wrong.


Should I be facing the opposite wall when i let go of the wall? or is facing the side ok?

Anyone have a trick or a technique for getting feet on the wall quickly?

Any help or advice you all can give is greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys!

gigi
February 8th, 2009, 12:49 PM
Nothing?
Oh well

carlos_fernandez
February 8th, 2009, 08:30 PM
You should definitely be facing the side as you touch.

Maybe others who have coached this transition more recently can give tips for getting your feet off the wall quickly.

Typhoons Coach
February 8th, 2009, 08:58 PM
All the other transitions seem pretty straight-forward to me, and I think I get off the wall pretty quickly on those, but for some reason I feel like I'm hanging on the wall too long on the back-to-breast and I just know I'm doing something wrong.


Should I be facing the opposite wall when i let go of the wall? or is facing the side ok?

Anyone have a trick or a technique for getting feet on the wall quickly?

Any help or advice you all can give is greatly appreciated.

Thanks guys!

Are you doing the IM flip turn, bucket turn, or open turn?

Glider
February 8th, 2009, 10:09 PM
Here's a couple of videos of the back to breast flip turns (thanks to Jim Matysek for the new embedded video feature!):

YouTube - IM - Sievinen back-breast turn

YouTube - IM - Back-breast-turn2

These seem to be the most prevalent these days.

carlos_fernandez
February 8th, 2009, 10:58 PM
The shorter the IM, the more likely that elite swimmers flip as shown above.

For many masters swimmers, the oxygen debt that you go into from doing a flip-turn is not worth the split second gain in time as opposed to an open turn.

gigi
February 8th, 2009, 11:01 PM
Thanks for those videos - what I have been doing resembles neither one of those. I wish I knew the term for what I've been doing - i've been leaning into the wall with whichever hand touches first, grabbing the gutter, pulling myself into the wall, somehow getting my feet on the wall, dropping down onto my opposite side and pushing off. I guess I'd call it an open turn. All I know is that it completely destoys my momentum and it's incredibly slow

At the very least, I've learned from these videos that the hand touches underwater and stays there. The female swimmer is doing something that I can't quite figure out. The male swimmer's technique looks closer to what I have been doing so maybe I'll use that as my model.

THanks for posting these videos - I'll study them to see what I can emulate.

Any advice that could talk me through the steps would be most appreciated

Thanks everybody

Glider
February 8th, 2009, 11:39 PM
Hard to explain in words...Can't do any better than a video...

But here was the key for me:

As your reaching with you hand for the wall, you'll be rotating on your side (but your shoulders are NOT past the vertical so as to be on or toward your stomach.)

That leading shoulder will be high and you will be facing one side wall of the pool (see the girl facing the camera at the 2 second mark.)

After doing your flip, you'll be pushing off on your side facing the opposite side of the pool (see the 3 second mark.)

And as you push off you make sure to keep twisting so that when your feet leave the wall your shoulders ARE past the vertical (so you are NOT on or toward your back.)

BTW, both of these swimmers did the same turn:)

Good luck


Thanks for those videos - what I have been doing resembles neither one of those. I wish I knew the term for what I've been doing - i've been leaning into the wall with whichever hand touches first, grabbing the gutter, pulling myself into the wall, somehow getting my feet on the wall, dropping down onto my opposite side and pushing off. I guess I'd call it an open turn. All I know is that it completely destoys my momentum and it's incredibly slow

At the very least, I've learned from these videos that the hand touches underwater and stays there. The female swimmer is doing something that I can't quite figure out. The male swimmer's technique looks closer to what I have been doing so maybe I'll use that as my model.

THanks for posting these videos - I'll study them to see what I can emulate.

Any advice that could talk me through the steps would be most appreciated

Thanks everybody

gigi
February 9th, 2009, 07:29 PM
Of course they are the same turn! For some reason, they looked a little different to me - I guess it was the angle. Silly me.

So I went to the pool today and tried to put this together. You know how when you think too hard about something, you just get paralyzed? I kept going to the wall, planting my hand on the wall and just freezing. I couldn't figure out the next move. I finally got something going but it was more like a lopsided back somersault. And while it seemed way faster than what I had been doing, it didn't resemble the video at all.

Their feet never leave the water right? It all happens so fast, I can't figure out what they're doing.

I'm going to keep working on this. Thanks for setting me off in the right direction - I'm still open to suggestions though.

carlos_fernandez
February 9th, 2009, 08:28 PM
Gigi: you're in Worcester, Mass. There are some good programs in the general area. Maybe register and go to a swim meet and introduce yourself here (again) before hand. Maybe somebody could walk you through it in the warm-up area.

Another option is to head on over to Harvard (45+ minutes away??) and workout w/ their masters team for a session. There's gotta be somebody on these boards that could meet up w/ you.

It's hard to make the corrections if we're not there to see what you're doing wrong.

gigi
February 9th, 2009, 08:53 PM
Mmmmm - I'm beginning to agree with you on this. I think a short one-on-one with someone will set me straight. I actually know a couple of kids at school who swim USS - I could probably strong-arm at least one of them into giving the old lady a couple of minutes over at the Y.

Swims With Twins
February 10th, 2009, 11:46 PM
I practice this type of turn almost every day. My turn is not as deep.

swim25
February 11th, 2009, 12:16 AM
I got DQed this past weekend for my transition from back to breast in the 200IM. I don't know what I did wrong.

gigi
February 11th, 2009, 06:14 PM
I got DQed this past weekend for my transition from back to breast in the 200IM. I don't know what I did wrong.

OUCH! That really hurts! How will you know if you're still doing whatever it is? Or if it you really were illegal. The uncertainty would drive me nuts. This is part of my dilemma. I'm hesitant to go trying something too radically different from my usual - I mean, my turn is slow, but at least I know it's legal.

luchsn
February 13th, 2009, 07:15 PM
You should definitely talk to your coach about your turn, and other turns that would work for you. But don't be afraid to try something different from what you're used to!

SolarEnergy
May 30th, 2009, 11:16 AM
You should definitely talk to your coach about your turn, and other turns that would work for you. But don't be afraid to try something different from what you're used to! It's exactly what I did here up north in Canada, asked very high profile coaches (more than one) to explain me this turn I found on YouTube nowadays performed by most good IM swimmers.

Darn, these coaches in charge of highest level of coaching here (not master coaches) looked at me puzzled and said: don't worry about these details, a turn is a turn.

This turn isn't easy to master I find, specially on both sides, but it is worth it I find. My only fear is that it be misinterpreted by some regional level officials and be mistakenly dqed as a result of this.

This turn is well documented in Maglischo latest edition: Swimming Fastest for those (like me) for whom just looking at a youtube clip isn't enough.

High level coaches, if you don't know exactly how to perform this turn in a way that is safe (avoiding dqs) and efficient, SHAME ON YOU GUYS! Bare in mind that the Devil's in the details.

isobel
May 30th, 2009, 12:17 PM
The coach for BU masters spent some time with me on this transition. I kind of pulled my back out by trying to whirl my legs under me really fast. Apparently I was torquing my body. So don't torque. I don't do the flip turn.

Every coach I've asked says this is an awkward transition. I don't grab the gutter anymore, and I mainly try to get my feet planted deeply enough so I get a good pushoff under the water.

I've gotten DQ'd for the pullout, not the turn, because I dolphin kicked before moving my arms back toward my feet in the breaststroke pullout.

But I saw a lot of people get DQ'd at New England SCY championships I think because they were still too much on their backs as they sped away from the wall. It seemed like an unusual number of DQs for a meet, and I wondered whether the fast suits made people less aware of body position in this turn. Or maybe the judges are getting pickier.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
May 30th, 2009, 01:29 PM
Darn, these coaches in charge of highest level of coaching here (not master coaches) looked at me puzzled and said: don't worry about these details, a turn is a turn.

This turn isn't easy to master I find, specially on both sides, but it is worth it I find. My only fear is that it be misinterpreted by some regional level officials and be mistakenly dqed as a result of this.

High level coaches, if you don't know exactly how to perform this turn in a way that is safe (avoiding dqs) and efficient, SHAME ON YOU GUYS! Bare in mind that the Devil's in the details.

Solar...

I am both an IM swimmer and a coach.

My aim is to perform and to coach fast, legal, and efficient turns. That also includes the ability to achieve great "underwaters" off the turn.

My personal experience is this:

#1 - There are very few masters swimmers willing to practice enough to perfect this back to breast IM flip-turn to make it better than a great open turn.

#2 - A swimmer needs "big air" on this turn to perform a great breaststroke underwater pull and breakout. Generally speaking I believe most swimmers have a better opportunity to get that big breath on the open turn.
But I am not saying here that you can not get a big breath on the flip turn.

#3 - Rules have changed. A swimmer must clearly touch the wall with their hand on this flip-turn.


Isobel - I work hard on these "stroke turns" to get my hands off the wall before my feet touch.
I imagine a rocking horse motion if that helps in the description.

Ahelee

P.S.
I got DQed in Austin at Nationals in the 400IM last year for beginning my breastroke pulldown off the turn still rotated to the side - or before I was fully rotated to flat.
I worked on this flaw A LOT in the next year and am still conscious of it on each breastroke pulldown.

tjrpatt
May 30th, 2009, 03:58 PM
I try to do a good bucket turn on my back to breaststroke pullout. But, it all depends on what arm hits the wall. For some reason, I can't do it as well with with right arm as I do with the left arm.

One tip, check floswimming.com for Ande's backstroke to breaststroke turn. It is really quick. He seems to touch the wall and do a back flip.

isobel
May 30th, 2009, 11:03 PM
Isobel - I work hard on these "stroke turns" to get my hands off the wall before my feet touch.
I imagine a rocking horse motion if that helps in the description.

Ahelee


I can see that that would help the torquing. I need to practice this transition a lot too. I kind of like the flip turn alternative, even though it sucks away air. I've never done the flip turn at a meet, just tried it at practice a few times. Easier not to get DQ'd with that turn, I think, since you are clearly on your back, then flip clearly onto your stomach.

some_girl
May 31st, 2009, 04:47 PM
I got DQed in Austin at Nationals in the 400IM last year for beginning my breastroke pulldown off the turn still rotated to the side - or before I was fully rotated to flat.
I worked on this flaw A LOT in the next year and am still conscious of it on each breastroke pulldown.

I thought you just had to be more towards your breast, not flat? Because if you are meant to be flat, all my breast turns are illegal: I come off the wall on my side and sometimes use the pulldown to finish rotating. I believe my coach said that *was* legal.

pwolf66
May 31st, 2009, 04:56 PM
Ahelee was probably ok as one only has to 'keep the body on the breast' after your feet leave the wall but she probably got popped on the 'all movement of the arms shall be simulateous and in the same horizontal plane' requirement. For me, that's a VERY tough one to call, yes, an experienced swimmer/judge KNOWS that a swimmer rotated 45 degrees to the side executing a pullout is not keeping the arms in the same horizontal plane but knowing it in your mind and actually SEEING that the arms are NOT in the same horizontal plane is quite a different matter.

orca1946
June 1st, 2009, 11:42 AM
Yes, as an older - 63 -swimmer, I need more time to get a good breath on the turn to get me farther out on my pullout than a flip will allow me.
You young uns GO for it!

SolarEnergy
June 15th, 2009, 02:04 PM
Solar...

I am both an IM swimmer and a coach. me too, outdated coach that is...

#1 - There are very few masters swimmers willing to practice enough to perfect this back to breast IM flip-turn to make it better than a great open turn. agreed of course.

#2 - A swimmer needs "big air" on this turn to perform a great breaststroke underwater pull and breakout. Generally speaking I believe most swimmers have a better opportunity to get that big breath on the open turn. Well, the leg before this long underwater glide is backstroke right? One possible reason for the apparent popularity of this turn is that one has a whole lot of time to "over breathe" during back leg prior to flip. Therefore I don't see this oxygen dept thing as being a real factor. Of course, if the leg prior the flip any other stroke then that would be a different story...


#3 - Rules have changed. A swimmer must clearly touch the wall with their hand on this flip-turn. that would be my number one concern. both theory and practical based evidence seem to be clear on that the hand must touch the wall quite deep into the water for the flip to work.

fairly clear here
YouTube - IM - Sievinen back-breast turn

executed by Phelps
YouTube - IM - Phelps back-breast turn

And then seems to be fairly shallow here (but it might be an illusion)
YouTube - Adam Mania's Back to Breast turn

now wait a minute. Are #1 and #3 the same turn??? (gees I am having a hard time understanding this turn, even if I started practicing it few weeks ago already).

gigi
June 15th, 2009, 08:34 PM
now wait a minute. Are #1 and #3 the same turn??? (gees I am having a hard time understanding this turn, even if I started practicing it few weeks ago already).[/quote]


This is my problem too - The swimmer in #1 seems to keep his feet IN the water and to lean to the side and move his feet to the wall. Swimmer #3 seems to do more of a flip that goes almost straight back and his feet clearly leave the water.

I'm still struggling with what to do about this and lately I've just been focusing on making my open turn as fast as possible. I really should find someone to just teach me this thing....

I'll keep studying these videos too - it may just sink in! Thannks for posting these

SolarEnergy
June 16th, 2009, 08:14 AM
I'll keep studying these videos too - it may just sink in! Thannks for posting these Good thing to do. Paying attention to these details, that's part of training.

If you want detailed explanations about this turn, you may try to rent a copy of latest Maglischo's book "Swimming Fastest", it is detailed there as well as some other variations of back-to-breast.

But even after reading it over and over, I don't seem to be able to hold the information in my head long enough. As soon as I reach the deck, black out.. (well not that bad, I can now do something that look like a flip. But it is still very laughable and would probably end up DQ using it).

In the mean time, if anyone could tell us if #1 and #3 are the same, would greatly be appreciated. I prefer #1 since it look more natural and as efficient.

geochuck
June 16th, 2009, 11:35 AM
Solar where have you been???

I have missed your intelligent theories and comments.


Good thing to do. Paying attention to these details, that's part of training.

If you want detailed explanations about this turn, you may try to rent a copy of latest Maglischo's book "Swimming Fastest", it is detailed there as well as some other variations of back-to-breast.

But even after reading it over and over, I don't seem to be able to hold the information in my head long enough. As soon as I reach the deck, black out.. (well not that bad, I can now do something that look like a flip. But it is still very laughable and would probably end up DQ using it).

In the mean time, if anyone could tell us if #1 and #3 are the same, would greatly be appreciated. I prefer #1 since it look more natural and as efficient.

SolarEnergy
June 16th, 2009, 11:53 AM
Solar where have you been???

I have missed your intelligent theories and comments. OMG, George.

I forgot that you were posting here, soooo good to find you back.

Got kept away from my passion(s) for few years (too much work). But now I am back and since I turned 40 in 09/2008, I aim at doing well at next provincials in 40-44.

I'll try 50-100-200 fly and 100-200-400 IM, hence my interest into this new Back-to-Breast transition. Well new... it might not be new for most, but it is for me.

Still in business mate?

SolarEnergy
June 16th, 2009, 01:32 PM
Eureka!!

( U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - back-to-breast transition - any advice? )
#1 and #3 aren't the same.

#1 is derived from a Turn invented by a backstroke swimmer, I think his name is Mader. The specifics of this turn is that the swimmer isn't actually flipping. This turn allows for the legs to travel outside the water AND for the head to be outside the water as well allowing for the swimmer to breathe (if you pause the clip during the turn, you'll notice that his head is turned face up)

#3 is the new kid on the block. There the swimmer is flipping and there's no way that he'd be able to breathe while doing it.

Here. found another nice view #3 YouTube - IM - back-breast turn

Man!! this is such a nice turn, I do not want to die before mastering it!!

LMH
June 16th, 2009, 01:53 PM
Solar, it looks like she is turning over too far before the wall is touched.
The hardest part of the turn is staying on your back or side to touch the wall before the flip.
I know it is hard to see when exatly the hand touched, but it looks like you can see her hip before the touch.

SolarEnergy
June 16th, 2009, 03:53 PM
Solar, it looks like she is turning over too far before the wall is touched.
The hardest part of the turn is staying on your back or side to touch the wall before the flip.
I know it is hard to see when exatly the hand touched, but it looks like you can see her hip before the touch. I think you may be right.

You'd fear a DQ in such a case?

Can you accomplish this turn yourself?

pwolf66
June 16th, 2009, 03:55 PM
but it looks like you can see her hip before the touch.

That may be true but the only thing that matters is the shoulders. Body position is not judged at the hips but at the shoulders.

Jeff Commings
June 17th, 2009, 06:14 PM
The key to doing this turn correctly is making sure the arm that reaches for the wall does not cross over your face. If it does, you will turn past vertical. Physics will not allow your body to do the turn legally if your arm does this.

Lots of practice will help.

And, if you get DQ'd for this turn, ask the stroke judge if he/she were standing over you at the end of your lane when he/she made the DQ. If they were on the side of the pool or more than three lanes over, they were not in a good position to accurately judge the turn. I have appealed a couple of DQs by judges who 1) did not know the turn well and 2) were not standing over my lane. I won both appeals.

SolarEnergy
June 18th, 2009, 07:55 AM
Thanks Jeff,

I think this clip here demonstrates this. Arm remains behind the head while flipping.

YouTube - Back-breast-turn-over-shoulder-under-water.mpg

That Guy
June 18th, 2009, 09:18 PM
And, if you get DQ'd for this turn, ask the stroke judge if he/she were standing over you at the end of your lane when he/she made the DQ. If they were on the side of the pool or more than three lanes over, they were not in a good position to accurately judge the turn. I have appealed a couple of DQs by judges who 1) did not know the turn well and 2) were not standing over my lane. I won both appeals.

Wow, I didn't even know you could appeal a DQ. The only times I've been DQ'd were in cases where I already knew I made a mistake, but this is good to know.