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Shamboola
February 9th, 2009, 01:55 PM
I ask this because I did a 500 and then 5x50s warm up for a meet this past weekend. When I swam the 500, I was cruising but was literally dead after about 6 laps. I go much faster in practice sets when we do distance and it was frustrating to say the least.

I recall that I did a 1,500 warmup in my youth and had a good meet. I also know that in workout I am usually at my strongest after we do about 1,500-2,000.

So, I am tired of being a workout warrior. Does 1,500 of warm up sound crazy?

Thanks,

Rob

swimmj
February 9th, 2009, 02:02 PM
No, 1500 doesn't sound crazy at all for a meet warmup. My basic meet warm up is 1200 and do more if I feel I need it. I do swimming with best possible technique, kicking, drill work, and some build 50's. And keep going if I don't feel ready to swim fast.

--mj

Rykno
February 9th, 2009, 03:03 PM
I don't look so much as yardarge during warmup as I do time in the water until I feel good.

but I would say that it's a min of 1000 since I am in the water for 25-35 minutes.

jim clemmons
February 9th, 2009, 03:05 PM
500 free, 200 back then 200 breast, another 100 free. Rest a bit on the wall and talk story, do a couple of easy 100's, some moderate 50's, some 25's "light" fly, more talking, a few easy laps and out. ALways around 1500-1700.

But I'll get back in right before my event, some more easy stuff (maybe 300 or so yards/meters), and go to the blocks wet.

pwolf66
February 9th, 2009, 03:06 PM
It's also a matter of the size of the meet. At SCY Nats, I struggled to get in 600 while at LCM Nats I did on average 1200/day w/u. Then in a large USA-S meet last month, I couldn't even crack 400 it was so crowded.

born2fly
February 9th, 2009, 03:51 PM
This is our meet warmup I do with the USS team.

500 warm up
5x100 @1:20
4x75 @1:15 kick/drill/swim one of each stroke
6x50's 3 free build and decend on 50, 3 stroke build decend on 55
4x25's sprint first 12 1/2 @ 30 seconds
2x25 sprints off block
100 easy

When we start our taper this warm up is always used every practice thru out taper as our warmup to get our body used to it.

Also-dont forget to warmup before your event, and also cool down after race.

pwb
February 9th, 2009, 05:21 PM
Reading Dave Salo's new book on swimming conditioning, he recommends doing the same warmup (or near to it) every day in both workouts and meets. He's got a recommended warmup, but it looks a little excessive for us Masters' swimmers.

I still do different warmup sets in workouts, but here's what I've been doing recently in meets and it seems to work for me regardless of what distance I swim (though, it should be noted, I tend to prefer mid-distance events and am almost always doing a mixture of stroke events, IMs and free):


200 free really easy & loose
400 IM kick / drill by 25s
8 x 50: 2 each stroke on roughly 0:45 to 1:00 (depending upon how crowded the pool is) going odds easy and evens fast
4 x 100: free descend on 1:30

starting fairly moderate and trying to get to the pace time on the last one for whatever freestyle event I'm swimming over 200
if I'm not doing a longer distance free event, I aim for my target 500 pace


2 - 4 25s from the blocks: working start and break out to about 15 yards for whatever strokes I'm swimming from a start
50 to 100 easy

TOTAL: 1500 to 1600

I also realized this past fall that, while I like cooling down after a race, I generally feel best when I dive in the water "dry" for a race. Rather than getting back in the warmup pool before a race, I do some dynamic stretching on deck a few heats before my race; this seems to re-warm my muscles up enough.

craig68
February 9th, 2009, 05:25 PM
1,500 doesn't sound like too much at all. I do about what Jim Clemmons does, maybe up to 500 yards with some build work immediately before going to the blocks. And I'm sprinter. As a middle distance guy, you could certainly increase the yardage and only improve your race speed as a result.

orca1946
February 9th, 2009, 06:45 PM
the # of swimmers will make a big difference to me as to 400 - 800 warm up!

jim clemmons
February 9th, 2009, 07:01 PM
Get there early and work through (and with) the crowd. Don't let them defer you from what you need for a warmup.

Jazz Hands
February 9th, 2009, 07:10 PM
I don't warm up at meets, but if you want to do that much, go for it.

Regina
February 9th, 2009, 07:15 PM
Rob,
Warm-Up as you know is individual. For me, I use the same warm-up every day in practice as it grounds me and allows me to see if I'm really sore/tired, tight, etc. Then I make adjustments as I proceed into the beginning of the workout. It involves drills, kicking, swimming and 4x 12 1/2's. The total is 1100 yards. I use this same warm-up in meets. If I feel that my muscles are a little tired and/or need more warm-up I swim accordingly. The warm-up ends about 30-45 minutes before the meet begins. Then I do between 200 and 400 warm-up for each event again depending how my body responds. You may need to experiment but eventually you'll come up with something that works for you. I wish you the very best.

One last thing. You mentioned that after 6 laps you were dead. Did you have a "Specific" Plan for the 500 or were you just swimming it? I ask that because if you look at your splits for the 500 perhaps you took it out to quick. I don't know, but I would be interested in your overall spits which gives the big picture.
The Best
Regina

gigi
February 9th, 2009, 07:36 PM
I've only been back swimming for a year (3 meets) and my routine has been very similar to Jim Clemmons' above. In my younger day, I did much less, but I find that now it takes me a lot longer to warm up.

I think the little touch-ups in the warmup pool just before my event really help me feel loose and happy on the blocks

I like the idea of doing the same warm-up routine in practice and meets. I may just put this into practice

Chris Stevenson
February 9th, 2009, 07:44 PM
I also know that in workout I am usually at my strongest after we do about 1,500-2,000.

Warmup is pretty individualized, and is also something you adapt to.

Doesn't your statement sort of answer your question?

scyfreestyler
February 9th, 2009, 07:53 PM
I don't warm up at meets, but if you want to do that much, go for it.

Just as I suspected. Let me grab a cup of coffee and await the hecklers and critics. :anim_coffee:

ourswimmer
February 9th, 2009, 07:57 PM
Usually 1200-1500, mostly easy with some buildup 50s and some fast turns to make sure I understand the flags and walls. I don't usually get wet again before each race because I get cold too fast in a wet suit, but like Patrick I do some moving around before my heat and it seems to work OK for me.

In between races I stay off my feet!

Allen Stark
February 9th, 2009, 08:46 PM
I warm up with about 800-1000,but it depends on how I feel.If I feel ready after 800 I'll stop,if not I keep going.IF you don't do much sprinting in your warm up it is hard to warm up too much(but it is easy to sprint too much in your warm up.)

dolf
February 10th, 2009, 03:06 AM
some of these warm ups are longer than my training sessions!!
I normally swim 200-400m, depending how I feel, then do a few fast starts.

qbrain
February 10th, 2009, 01:29 PM
I usually cannot tolerate the warmup lanes very long. There seems to be one person in each warmup lane that has never swam before and maybe a pair of socialites to really screw up the flow. 500yds is probably my max, and I am happy if I can get in a good 200.

To account for this, I do very short warmups at very slow speed at the beginning of a sprint practice. Just enough to get loosened up, and much shorter than anything I did as a kid. Then I move right into some sprint work to simulate a meet like environment.

nkfrench
February 10th, 2009, 05:25 PM
I like about 1000 for a meet, at least 600. In practice I'll do 3 x 200 free and stretch between them. For the first 200 my lats and delts feel dead / leaden. After the stretches and repeats I feel good. For a meet, after loosening up with the 200's I'll do 4 to 8 descending 50's. Those are both for 500 pacing and also to try to remember how to sprint. Then a little bit of the other strokes and some easy swimming.

Shamboola
February 10th, 2009, 05:26 PM
Thanks to Everyone for all of your Comments. I realize that I need to really experiment and see just how much is too much. I suspect that I will need to do a combination of 1000 swim and then some sprints to get me tired and in race mode. It will be a work in progress but I am looking forward to seeing what works best for me.

Rob

jim clemmons
February 10th, 2009, 06:13 PM
I suspect that I will need to do a combination of 1000 swim and then some sprints to get me tired and in race mode. It will be a work in progress but I am looking forward to seeing what works best for me.

Rob

"and then some sprints to get me tired"

I wouldn't do that. Save it for the racing. It's far better spent there.

Shamboola
February 11th, 2009, 12:38 PM
Jim,

I hear ya. Nothing could not be worse than the feeling I had in the race. After the first few laps, I was so exausted I actually started laughing. At least I had a good sense of humor about it.

On the other hand, my wife swam the 500 and swam up to her potential. She has only been back in the pool for about 6 months but her splits were at about the right pace for her workout speed. And my 9 year old daughter is entered in her first 500 in a few weeks and her workout group swam a few in practice for time and she did a 7:27. She loves swimming the 500 and is really looking forward to it. So, I am really proud of both of them.

Rob

pwb
February 11th, 2009, 01:15 PM
... And my 9 year old daughter is entered in her first 500 in a few weeks and her workout group swam a few in practice for time and she did a 7:27. She loves swimming the 500 and is really looking forward to it. So, I am really proud of both of them.


That is great. I highly encourage my daughters to swim the longer distance events for a variety of reasons. One main reason is that many kids are afraid of them, so it's a quicker path to "success" relative to peers, time standards, etc. than some of the more crowded sprints. Also, the sheer impressiveness of the time drops kids can have in distance events is wonderful. The smile on my older daughter's face (now 13) when she drops 10 or 20 seconds in one of these races is so much wider than when she drops a second in a 50 ... even if the second in the 50 is probably a more impressive drop on a distance-adjusted basis.

Another family-specific reason is that there's never been anyone in the history of Brundages who could sprint in any sport. That may or may not apply to your family.

FYI -- 7:27 for a 9 year old in workout is a nice swim.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
February 11th, 2009, 07:43 PM
[quote=pwbrundage;170403] The smile on my older daughter's face (now 13) when she drops 10 or 20 seconds in one of these races is so much wider than when she drops a second in a 50 ...
Another family-specific reason is that there's never been anyone in the history of Brundages who could sprint in any sport.
quote]

The Brundage 500 Freestylers!
Below shot taken shortly after Dad swam a 17:04 in the 1650 while 500 freestyler daughter counted... at the AZ Polar Bear Meet.
(sorry, couldn't resist)

I wanted to add to the discussion that I have found as a swimmer and coach, masters swimmers generally do not warmup enough. Rarely have swimmers thought through, planned, and then executed a complete warmup.

I had a coach who kind of threw his hands up in the air over this fact and took to telling us that we have to practice swimming fast without a decent warmup.

Both scenarios are easy to practice. But hopefully you only have to experience racing with a proper warmup session.

I like to consider some of the really good swims I have done at the end of a main set in practice. I sure was warmed up for those swims!

Also, because I am often coaching and distracted at masters meets, I tend to swim the best at the end of the meet. A race that comes after swimming several events in a day - including warmups and sometimes even a cool down swim or two. I think I am or should be totally exhausted and yet out pops a decent swim...

nkfrench
February 12th, 2009, 10:05 AM
The warmup is easier than disciplining myself to swim down after each event, especially the last event.

jim clemmons
February 12th, 2009, 05:48 PM
The warmup is easier than disciplining myself to swim down after each event, especially the last event.

Especially if the last event is less than a 200. If so, I'm usually gone...:bolt:

orca1946
February 12th, 2009, 05:56 PM
I guess it will matter on the age of the swimmer.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
February 12th, 2009, 09:09 PM
I guess it will matter on the age of the swimmer.

Don't go using age as an excuse around here again...

I hate when masters swimmers do that!
(where is that pet peeve thread?)

jim clemmons
February 12th, 2009, 10:41 PM
Don't go using age as an excuse around here again...

I hate when masters swimmers do that!
(where is that pet peeve thread?)

Think it's listed under "pet peeve". :D

Muppet
February 13th, 2009, 12:41 AM
I don't warm up at meets, but if you want to do that much, go for it.


Just as I suspected. Let me grab a cup of coffee and await the hecklers and critics. :anim_coffee:

There is nothing wrong with no warmup. For sprinters like the Jazzmaster, it is easy to do. The last two summers, I ran 3 long course meets (2 of them with ~200 people) and swam some pretty good long course times in several events with zero warmup. However, I don't recommend trying it for anything 200 and up - I had some good swims in those events in there, but wow, did they hurt!

Also, for those of you who actually need to warm up, we have a teammate that will warm up about 500, then walk up and down the deck between hot showers. Up on the blocks, and BAM team records drop just like that. Hot shower warmup/warmdown is great for small pools with little or no warmup/warmdown space.

3strokes
February 13th, 2009, 11:50 AM
Think it's listed under "pet peeve". :D


Don't go using age as an excuse around here again...

I hate when masters swimmers do that!
(where is that pet peeve thread?)

There it be: http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?t=6390&highlight=rant

CreamPuff
February 13th, 2009, 01:30 PM
There is nothing wrong with no warmup. For sprinters like the Jazzmaster, it is easy to do. The last two summers, I ran 3 long course meets (2 of them with ~200 people) and swam some pretty good long course times in several events with zero warmup.

One of my past masters coaches who also happens to now coach NCAA Div 1 college swimming said that it was very dangerous for masters swimmers to sprint or race any distance w/out any warm up due to your jacking up your heart rate from resting to very high. Just wanted to throw that out there.

You'd recommend no warm up for people in their 40s, 50s, 60s?

My experiences with no warm up (and I felt I was an idiot for trying that - and my coach also confirmed - and have since always warmed up) -
No warm up and 200 IM race - almost stopped b/c I felt like I may have a heart attack
No warm up and 50s - could do okay times but the swims did not feel good and I did not like my heart rate jumping up so quickly
These swims were done at age 30.

Just because one is putting out good times does not mean your body is functioning properly. I swam next to someone who died of a heart attack during practice and he was posting good times that day.

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 02:04 PM
One of my past masters coaches who also happens to now coach NCAA Div 1 college swimming said that it was very dangerous for masters swimmers to sprint or race any distance w/out any warm up due to your jacking up your heart rate from resting to very high. Just wanted to throw that out there.

If you're doing it right, your heart rate slowly goes up in the minutes leading up to the race, due to psychological anticipation. That's really why I think going sans warm-up works. You also get adrenaline, which prepares the body for movement.

CreamPuff
February 13th, 2009, 02:04 PM
[quote=pwbrundage;170403] The smile on my older daughter's face (now 13) when she drops 10 or 20 seconds in one of these races is so much wider than when she drops a second in a 50 ...
Another family-specific reason is that there's never been anyone in the history of Brundages who could sprint in any sport.
quote]

The Brundage 500 Freestylers!
Below shot taken shortly after Dad swam a 17:04 in the 1650 while 500 freestyler daughter counted... at the AZ Polar Bear Meet.
(sorry, couldn't resist)

I wanted to add to the discussion that I have found as a swimmer and coach, masters swimmers generally do not warmup enough. Rarely have swimmers thought through, planned, and then executed a complete warmup.

I had a coach who kind of threw his hands up in the air over this fact and took to telling us that we have to practice swimming fast without a decent warmup.

Both scenarios are easy to practice. But hopefully you only have to experience racing with a proper warmup session.

I like to consider some of the really good swims I have done at the end of a main set in practice. I sure was warmed up for those swims!

Also, because I am often coaching and distracted at masters meets, I tend to swim the best at the end of the meet. A race that comes after swimming several events in a day - including warmups and sometimes even a cool down swim or two. I think I am or should be totally exhausted and yet out pops a decent swim...

Excellent post. Couldn't agree more on the warm up thing.

I went a lifetime best time on my last event (#6 of 6 events) on the last day of a 3 day meet. Swam the 200 FR exactly 15 minutes before my last event of a 100 fly and posted a :58.1. I felt warmed up, fluid, and ready to go.

aquageek
February 13th, 2009, 02:14 PM
If you're doing it right, your heart rate slowly goes up in the minutes leading up to the race, due to psychological anticipation. That's really why I think going sans warm-up works. You also get adrenaline, which prepares the body for movement.

Butterflies and jitters have never ever in the history of the sporting universe been used as a warm-up technique. That is absolutely the worst advice ever given on this forum, bar none. Thank god no coach out there is telling swimmers to do this. It's a great way to demolish your shoulders should you desire to quit swimming altogether, however.

qbrain
February 13th, 2009, 02:19 PM
CreamPuff brings up a good point, but I think there are two issues that need to be addressed.

When I swim warmup, that warms up my muscles, which I think has a rather longer term affect. A decent warm up and my muscles are loose and ready to use for the rather long time between warm up and race.

This is not the case for my heart. Rarely do I have lane space and good timing so that my heart rate is still elevated when I step up on the blocks. Maybe I need to work on this, but I spend enough time behind the blocks that my heart rate would be close to resting rate if it were not for the pre-race adrenaline.

I think most of the discussion has really been in relation to muscle warm up, and I would like to hear what people are doing to safely elevate their heart rate behind the blocks. Are you swimming warm up until a couple minutes before your race, or something dryland?

Thanks CreamPuff. I really wanted the **** scared out of me.

CreamPuff
February 13th, 2009, 02:27 PM
CreamPuff brings up a good point, but I think there are two issues that need to be addressed.

When I swim warmup, that warms up my muscles, which I think has a rather longer term affect. A decent warm up and my muscles are loose and ready to use for the rather long time between warm up and race.

This is not the case for my heart. Rarely do I have lane space and good timing so that my heart rate is still elevated when I step up on the blocks. Maybe I need to work on this, but I spend enough time behind the blocks that my heart rate would be close to resting rate if it were not for the pre-race adrenaline.

I think most of the discussion has really been in relation to muscle warm up, and I would like to hear what people are doing to safely elevate their heart rate behind the blocks. Are you swimming warm up until a couple minutes before your race, or something dryland?

Thanks CreamPuff. I really wanted the **** scared out of me.

Great points.
I'll thank my coaches on your behalf. :)
What's interesting for me is that why would every coach I've ever had (as a masters or USS) insist on some kind of warm up prior to racing. . .

CreamPuff
February 13th, 2009, 02:32 PM
I just read sprinters need more of a warm up than distance swimmers.

Muppet
February 13th, 2009, 03:04 PM
One of my past masters coaches who also happens to now coach NCAA Div 1 college swimming said that it was very dangerous for masters swimmers to sprint or race any distance w/out any warm up due to your jacking up your heart rate from resting to very high. Just wanted to throw that out there.

You'd recommend no warm up for people in their 40s, 50s, 60s?

My experiences with no warm up (and I felt I was an idiot for trying that - and my coach also confirmed - and have since always warmed up) -
No warm up and 200 IM race - almost stopped b/c I felt like I may have a heart attack
No warm up and 50s - could do okay times but the swims did not feel good and I did not like my heart rate jumping up so quickly
These swims were done at age 30.

Just because one is putting out good times does not mean your body is functioning properly. I swam next to someone who died of a heart attack during practice and he was posting good times that day.

All I recommended was not trying it for 200 and up. If anyone wants to try it, or gets stuck in a situation where they would need to go sans warmup, I'm just saying it'll hurt!

Warmup, like everything else in this sport, is very indivualized - what works for one doesn't work for the next, and what worked for someone last year/month/week doesn't necessarily translate to their present situation. The original poster wanted feedback on warmup length, and when someone commented on no warmup, I seconded those comments with personal experience.

Lastly, look at the ages of the two people proclaiming the "OKness" of no warmup... perhaps that will help paint a better picture of our opinions, and perhaps our comments on this topic should be taken with a grain of salt (which most people tend to treat Jazzy's comments anyways).

i'm off to go do a 800 loosen...

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 03:52 PM
butterflies and jitters have never ever in the history of the sporting universe been used as a warm-up technique. That is absolutely the worst advice ever given on this forum, bar none. Thank god no coach out there is telling swimmers to do this. It's a great way to demolish your shoulders should you desire to quit swimming altogether, however.

The worst advice ever! Absolutely! I am totally insane!

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 04:05 PM
The worst advice ever! Absolutely! I am totally insane!

Jazz Hands, I disagree. You are actually quite right. Psychological arousal causes increased blood flow to skeletal muscle and generally prepares the body for maximal physical performance. This is an evolutionary adaptation for extreme situations where survival depends on the ability to be very strong and fast for a short period of time.

Here's a paper about it: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6816891

aquageek
February 13th, 2009, 04:11 PM
I'm thankful no swimming coach that I've ever heard of is claiming pre race jitters substitute for actual warm-up, based on an article abstract from 1982. But, hey, whatever works for you. You keep on Googling!!

I have a few swimmer friends who have had shoulder surgery and every one of them has come up to me and said "You know, Geek, my doctor has said warmup isn't necessary, just go sit in a corner and get stressed before your event."

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 04:13 PM
I'm thankful no swimming coach that I've ever heard of is claiming pre race jitters substitute for actual warm-up, based on an article abstract from 1982. But, hey, whatever works for you. You keep on Googling!!

You can get the full version of that one for free. Really this idea goes way way way back before 1982. I'm not sure why you think it's irrelevant because it's old. There's no new research refuting the idea that arousal causes increased blood flow to the muscles, so why does it matter how long ago people figured it out? Should we stop using the Pythagorean theorem as well?

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 04:20 PM
Also, geek, do you still think scientific articles are less credible if they are found through Google Scholar as opposed to one of the more clunky article search engines? I remember our last argument about Google Scholar, which was simply astounding to me. You could not figure out, through any amount repetition or variations on the theme, that Google Scholar leads to the exact same articles as any other database or search engine that covers scholarly journals. The research is not less real, the person finding the research is not more dumb, really nothing is different at all. I can find articles at the library by using the indexing system, or by going to the section where I know the relevant journals are and just browsing. Either way, I end up at useful information. So you probably need to stop using "Google" pejoratively with respect to finding journal articles :)

I'm not really sure how else to back up a point with scientific research besides searching for articles. I know that research exists to support specific ideas, because I've read the research before. How do you propose I find it again?

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 04:29 PM
Here's more information about Google Scholar, geek. I'm determined to help you in your journey to figuring out exactly what it is.

http://www.google.com/librariancenter/articles/0612_01.html


I have a simple goal -- or, rather, a simple-to-state goal. I would like Google Scholar to be a place that you can go to find all scholarly literature -- across all areas, all languages, all the way back in time. Of course, this is easy to say and not quite as easy to achieve. I believe it is crucial for researchers everywhere to be able to find research done anywhere. As Vannevar Bush said in his prescient essay "As We May Think" (The Atlantic Monthly, July 1945), "Mendel's concept of the laws of genetics was lost to the world for a generation because his publication did not reach the few who were capable of grasping and extending it; and this sort of catastrophe is undoubtedly being repeated all about us, as truly significant attainments become lost in the mass of the inconsequential."

aquageek
February 13th, 2009, 04:31 PM
OK, Jazzweed, I give in. I just Googled "ridiculous warm-up advice that is guaranteed to get someone injured" and your name popped right up! Heck yeah, man, this Googling is the the bomb! Thanks for the tip.

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 04:32 PM
OK, Jazzweed, I give in. I just Googled "ridiculous warm-up advice that is guaranteed to get someone injured" and your name popped right up! Heck yeah, man, this Googling is the the bomb! Thanks for the tip.

Umm... this is kind of surreal now. Can you re-read some of what I wrote, please?

qbrain
February 13th, 2009, 04:44 PM
What's interesting for me is that why would every coach I've ever had (as a masters or USS) insist on some kind of warm up prior to racing. . .

Coaches do a lot of things because that is the way everyone else does it. And it isn't limited to coaches.

So what kind of warm up in needed to prepare the heart for the shock of racing?

qbrain
February 13th, 2009, 04:51 PM
Jazz Hands,

I agree with your statements with increased blood flow, fight or flight response type statements.

Do you have anything that comments on what causes hearts to go through catastrophic failure under extreme stress, and how it could be prevented?

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 05:02 PM
Jazz Hands,

I agree with your statements with increased blood flow, fight or flight response type statements.

Do you have anything that comments on what causes hearts to go through catastrophic failure under extreme stress, and how it could be prevented?

No, I don't. We really shouldn't be giving each other medical advice here. I will point out that people are extremely freaking paranoid about heart attacks at this forum, to the point where a lot of people think that I am going to have a heart attack because of how I train, at 23 years old, having absolutely no reason to suspect that I have poor heart health at all.

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 05:14 PM
Ok, I've decided to summarize what I'm talking about, since it's obviously a fun sport to twist what I'm saying and ridicule me.

First, I can't believe I have to do this, but I'm going to talk about Google Scholar and how it is a credible source of information. There are a lot of databases of scholarly articles. That usually means things that have appeared in peer-reviewed journals. A search engine for these articles will index many journals and return articles when you enter a search query. The Google corporation has a relatively new one of these, called Google Scholar. It's important to note, and this is what aquageek has been (purposely?) missing, Google Scholar is not the same thing as the main Google search engine. It's based on a completely different database of results, and its purpose is completely different. It is much more similar to the article databases in that it only returns scholarly research.

Usually, if I want to find articles on some subject, the easiest thing to do is search for the subject area in Google Scholar. From there I can use the "cited by" and "related articles" features to find more, as well as the actual citations in the articles themselves. This is just how I like to find articles. Other people do it with other search engines. The important thing to realize is that if you are going to find research to support a claim, you are going to have to search for it somewhere. Google Scholar is only one of the methods to search.

Now, on to what we're actually talking about.

1. The purpose of warm-up before a race is to prepare the body for maximal performance.
What I mean by this is that there are certain states in which we are more likely to produce greater force, with greater coordination, and anything else that leads to a faster time. Warm up is a very good way to achieve this. Blood gets moving to the muscles, joints get lubricated, and heart rate increases. There are also psychological effects, in some cases. I know a lot of people warm up just to feel as if they are ready to race. Also, being prepared for maximal performance means being prepared in a safe way. I think safety and performance overlap a lot here. We can reasonably assume that the body should have mechanisms which prevent injuries when going through physical exertion. This would be adaptive, from an evolutionary perspective.

2. It is adaptive to be prepared for maximal performance when psychologically aroused.
This is essentially what that article is about, along with the specific physiological responses. Basically, psychological arousal is an indicator to the body from the mind that there may need to be an extreme physical exertion. This is very likely to have been naturally selected, because animals without this connection would be less effective at escaping predators, catching prey, or winning a fight, due to inadequate preparation. Safety and injury prevention also come into play here. Suppose such a system exists to prepare the animal for exertion, but it exists without proper safeguarding against injury. This gives the animal a lower likelihood of survival, because it will be able to produce top force and speed, but then get injured in the course of it. So there's probably also an evolutionary pressure for the safety of an arousal-based physical burst.

3. Therefore, it is possible to warm up without moving.
At least to some extent it is. I'm not claiming this is absolute, or everyone has to do it this way. Just that it's a reasonable idea. It has worked great for me personally. Others, such as CreamPuff, have anecdotes about trying to race without warming up and being unsatisfied with the result.

aquageek
February 13th, 2009, 05:19 PM
I really would be much more interested in what a real doctor, maybe even a cardiologist, has to say about this. Maybe even a cardiologist who is an accomplished swimmer. Does such a poster exist? Indeed one does.

I will also say this topic was blogged on our USMS team website by two very accomplished coaches, USMS and USA Swimming. Both clearly stated warmup was necessary, but varied by individual. Neither suggested pre-race jitters as a suitable alternative for warming up.

Chris Stevenson
February 13th, 2009, 05:38 PM
...arousal causes increased blood flow to skeletal muscle and generally prepares the body for maximal physical performance.

For those of us wishing to protect our investment in expensive tight-fitting tech suits, a more traditional warmup is a good alternative. (Sorry, I'll go back to lurking now...)

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 05:43 PM
I will also say this topic was blogged on our USMS team website by two very accomplished coaches, USMS and USA Swimming. Both clearly stated warmup was necessary, but varied by individual. Neither suggested pre-race jitters as a suitable alternative for warming up.

You may have noticed that I seriously do not care what experts tell me to do.

CreamPuff
February 13th, 2009, 05:45 PM
arousal causes increased blood flow to skeletal muscle and generally prepares the body for maximal physical performance.

You boys have all the fun.

That Guy
February 13th, 2009, 05:59 PM
I typically get in the warm up pool as soon as it opens up, so I can be done with my warmup (usually 1600) before the pool gets crowded and the chatters block the walls. I usually end up waiting a few minutes for sprint lanes to open. Then from the blocks, I rehearse the first 25 of each race that I'm going to do that day. If any of the 25's go badly (especially if it's backstroke where I might slip on the start or misjudge the turn) then I'll do it again until I've done it right.

As to racing without warmup, :oldman: back in the old days, we used to make a game of that during the offseason. It went like this:
- Show up at pool on your own time for an offseason workout
- Upon walking out of the locker room, get on the blocks
- Race a 500 free (yes, for some reason, that's the only event we ever did in this format)
- Compare times with teammates
- :chug:

aquageek
February 13th, 2009, 06:18 PM
You may have noticed that I seriously do not care what experts tell me to do.

Then stop trying to convince us your Googly Scholar posts are expert opinions.

Meh, yawn.

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 06:22 PM
Then stop trying to convince us your Googly Scholar posts are expert opinions.

Meh, yawn.

I'm not an expert, I just have rational arguments. Which is one better than you.

aztimm
February 13th, 2009, 06:38 PM
I'm not an expert, I just have rational arguments. Which is one better than you.

I think what you should or shouldn't do for a warm-up at 23 is far different than what I should do at my current age.

I remember running the Army PT test (2 miles) at 22/23, with little to no warm-up, and ran times I'll probably never see again. Heck, I probably even did it half drunk on at least one occasion. But as I've gotten older, I've discovered that my body is less and less forgiving.

luchsn
February 13th, 2009, 06:56 PM
I usually swim a 600 free, 400 IM, 8-50's and some sprints off the blocks for warm ups at a meet. When I'm doing this warm-up, it feels like it's draining all of energy. But it actually helps you during the meet. Don't be afraid of long warm ups at a meet!

aquageek
February 13th, 2009, 07:32 PM
I'm not an expert, I just have rational arguments.

You mean such as muttering to yourself like a feral child before races is adequate warm-up.

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 07:41 PM
You mean such as muttering to yourself like a feral child before races is adequate warm-up.

Is this tone necessary? You aren't directly responding to my argument. You're just laughing at your own cartoonish version of it. What's the point? Please, if you want to tell me I'm wrong, do it with some rhetorical device other than condescending ridicule.

You told me that you're actually nice, so I don't get why you're being extremely rude about this.

Ripple
February 13th, 2009, 07:46 PM
What is a good warmup for 'fly? I'm doing my first pool meet ever in three weeks, and for some unfathomable reason (temporary insanity?) have put my name down for 50m butterfly.

aquageek
February 13th, 2009, 07:47 PM
You told me that you're actually nice, so I don't get why you're being extremely rude about this.

It's not like I called you an arrogant jerk or anything. Your assertions are not supported in the swimming community or sporting community. I believe what you have stated, if followed by most athletes, is a one way ticket to injury.

qbrain
February 13th, 2009, 07:49 PM
No, I don't. We really shouldn't be giving each other medical advice here.

LOL, so true.

I don't want medical advice and medical advice would tell me if I should race at all or not.

I want to know how to safely elevate my heart rate before a race. I will look around and see if I can find some research on the topic, but I don't think the answer is medical advice.

Maybe there is something nice in Google Scholar or Swimming Fastest.

As for warm up in general, if it is such an individualized thing, is Jazz Hands walking to the blocks enough to warm him up? I have heard that "people" are not warming up enough. What is enough? I have heard that sprinters need even more of a warm up. How much is that?

Thanks Shamboola for asking the question and everyone who posted what they were doing and how prepared it made them feel.

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 07:50 PM
It's not like I called you an arrogant jerk or anything. Your assertions are not supported in the swimming community or sporting community. I believe what you have stated, if followed by most athletes is a one way ticket to injury.

I know what you believe, the problem is that you haven't stated why you believe that. Part of it comes from the fact that experts say so. That has some weight, but I choose to challenge experts, on the premise that experts have been wrong before, so they can be wrong now. The only way to determine which statements by experts are actually correct, sans the benefit of hindsight, is to examine each issue in more depth. That's what I've attempted to do with the necessity of warm-up. If you want to refute what I've said, I'm glad to hear it.

jim clemmons
February 13th, 2009, 07:51 PM
What is a good warmup for 'fly? I'm doing my first pool meet ever in three weeks, and for some unfathomable reason (temporary insanity?) have put my name down for 50m butterfly.

Free and backstroke, maybe some one-arm fly until good and ready to do some easy whole-stroke fly. Then some easy fly. Kinda depends what's up before the 50 fly (if anything). Relax, you'll do fine.

aquageek
February 13th, 2009, 08:07 PM
If you want to refute what I've said, I'm glad to hear it.

Since I would simply regurgitate what every coach I've ever had says, what every current coach says, what every college athlete I swim with says, what every former D1 swimmer I swim with says it would not be of value to you. Their experience, coupled with my limited knowledge, is sufficient for me.

I should be clear that while I find your methods to be unorthodox and unsustainable, they are yours and fine by me. When you reach out on topics completely refuted by most swimmers and coaches and your sole methods of refutation are "I question authority" and "mistakes are made," I'm gonna call you on it.

Iwannafly
February 13th, 2009, 08:08 PM
All I know is that no warm up with stretching means severely pulled hamstring on one occasion and strained long head of biceps on another while playing Ultimate Frisbee. Warm up with a decent amount of stretching means no muscular injuries in 10 years of playing. The two don't necessarily have to be correlated, but they seem to go hand in hand to me. Perhaps I just haven't been able to work myself up sufficiently. I also know that in running races, on the occasions I haven't warmed up properly, my legs felt sluggish and my performances suffered. I'm not discounting what Jazz has to say, but in my experience, it has not worked for me.

Jazz Hands
February 13th, 2009, 08:12 PM
Since I would simply regurgitate what every coach I've ever had says, what every current coach says, what every college athlete I swim with says, what every former D1 swimmer I swim with says it would not be of value to you. Their experience, coupled with my limited knowledge, is sufficient for me.

I should be clear that while I find your methods to be unorthodox and unsustainable, they are yours and fine by me. When you reach out on topics completely refuted by most swimmers and coaches and your sole methods of refutation are "I question authority" and "mistakes are made," I'm gonna call you on it.

I put the completely false part in bold. The ability of experts to be wrong is merely the basis for me to begin to question an assertion. As for the actual content of my refutation, I wrote a detailed argument based on known facts about the physical effects of psychological arousal and how they are potentially very similar to the physical effects of warm up. Did you miss that?

That Guy
February 13th, 2009, 11:11 PM
All I know is that no warm up with stretching means severely pulled hamstring on one occasion and strained long head of biceps on another while playing Ultimate Frisbee. Warm up with a decent amount of stretching means no muscular injuries in 10 years of playing. The two don't necessarily have to be correlated, but they seem to go hand in hand to me. Perhaps I just haven't been able to work myself up sufficiently. I also know that in running races, on the occasions I haven't warmed up properly, my legs felt sluggish and my performances suffered. I'm not discounting what Jazz has to say, but in my experience, it has not worked for me.

Oh yeah, the results of swimming those cold 500 frees... Our times were slower than what we could repeat in practice during the season. I'm not disputing Jazz's findings either because he seems to be a sprinter, and I know that I'm not one, so it's natural that our race prep is different.

The Fortress
February 14th, 2009, 12:05 AM
Warm up confuses me. I am probably one of those poor planners and executers that frustrate Ahelee. I usually do around 1000 or so with some builds and sprints. If I don't sprint enough, I feel "flat" or like I haven't gotten the cobwebs out in my first race. Often, like Ahelee mentioned, I'll swim better as the day goes on. On the other hand, sometimes I can warm up and sit around for a couple hours and then swim fast. It's a conundrum to me. I do like hot showers before and after races. And I always swim better in the afternoon no matter what I did for warm up. I would never swim fly without warming up.

Bobinator
February 14th, 2009, 12:27 AM
I thought you were going to bed early tonight for the meet Fortress. Is the time different there? The only reason i'm up this late is because i'm an insomniac at night.

pwolf66
February 14th, 2009, 07:36 AM
I thought you were going to bed early tonight for the meet Fortress. Is the time different there? The only reason i'm up this late is because i'm an insomniac at night.


12:05am IS her normal bedtime for her. :banana:

Chris Stevenson
February 14th, 2009, 09:57 AM
I thought you were going to bed early tonight for the meet Fortress. Is the time different there? The only reason i'm up this late is because i'm an insomniac at night.

I think Fortress warms up by hitting the forum. :)

CreamPuff
February 14th, 2009, 10:53 AM
I want to do what the fast people do and they warm up.

qbrain
February 14th, 2009, 01:56 PM
Maglischo has some good time based guidelines are warming up.


Stretch ankles, shoulders and lower back for 5 to 10 minutes. Breaststrokers should also stretch their groin and knees.

10 to 20 minutes easy swim.

Practice starts and turns.

For sprinters, swim a few 25s a race pace. >200 eventers should swim 50s or 100s at race pace.

Cool down 2 to 5 minutes.

That should be completed at least 15 minutes before racing.

Right before racing, try to swim 5 to 10 minutes easy and go immediately to the blocks.

So the last bit would pose a problem for tech suit wearers.

One of the questions I had was what to do when you don't have warm up space right before your event. Maglischo says that really sucks, because the warm up effect wears off.

Jazz, this brief is worth reading, and considering where you are, you might have access to the full article too.

http://www.biomedexperts.com/Abstract.bme/1752715/The_effect_of_warm-up_on_responses_to_intense_exercise

Looks like lots of good research coming out of human performance labs, and some pertains to aging athletes as well as swimmers.

qbrain
February 14th, 2009, 01:57 PM
I didn't know that linking to Amazon did that. Oops.

3strokes
February 14th, 2009, 09:48 PM
Maglischo (http://www.amazon.com/Swimming-Fastest-Ernest-W-Maglischo/dp/0736031804/) has some good time based guidelines are warming up.

Stretch ankles, shoulders and lower back for 5 to 10 minutes. Breaststrokers should also stretch their groin and knees.



One should NEVER stretch "cold" muscles.

qbrain
February 15th, 2009, 10:01 AM
One should NEVER stretch "cold" muscles.

Thus the invention of dynamic stretching.

Example: Groin Injury Prevention (http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=445&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en&mid=702&ItemId=698)

Paul Smith
February 15th, 2009, 10:23 AM
100% determined by how I "feel"...it has been as little as about 500 and probably never more than 1000.

I will say I see a LOT of masters swimmers (IMHO) warm up WAY to much and in my opinion leave a lot of their race back in the warm up pool.

Chris Stevenson
February 16th, 2009, 08:56 AM
Maglischo has some good time based guidelines are warming up.


Stretch ankles, shoulders and lower back for 5 to 10 minutes. Breaststrokers should also stretch their groin and knees.

10 to 20 minutes easy swim.

Practice starts and turns.

For sprinters, swim a few 25s a race pace. >200 eventers should swim 50s or 100s at race pace.

Cool down 2 to 5 minutes.

That should be completed at least 15 minutes before racing.

Right before racing, try to swim 5 to 10 minutes easy and go immediately to the blocks.

So the last bit would pose a problem for tech suit wearers.

One of the questions I had was what to do when you don't have warm up space right before your event. Maglischo says that really sucks, because the warm up effect wears off.

It is a good idea not to get too invested in a single warmup routine. Although I disagree with JH about a lot of what he says here about warmup -- mostly b/c I think he tends to overgeneralize from his own experiences -- it is worth considering what he is saying, the idea that dryland warmup CAN be as effective as a traditional "wet" warmup if you do it right. It is a good idea to develop such a routine if it is necessary (I basically do something similar to dynamic stretching).

I love to follow Maglischo's advice and basically show up wet at the starting blocks. But sometimes it isn't possible for a variety of reasons. That shouldn't be enough to throw you off your game, you need to be (mentally) flexible about what constitutes a good warmup.

Think about the some of the races in major international competitions. Depending on the situation, they may spend over 15 min in the ready room prior to the race before marching out, clearly they can't go straight from the pool to the blocks. Almost all of them are moving, jumping, and/or stretching, getting ready for competition in a way that doesn't involve swimming.

For me there are basically two aspects to warmup: the pre-meet warmup before all the races start, and the pre-race warmup before my actual event. Sometimes the two merge if I am swimming the same event, or -- somewhat paradoxically -- if there is a lot of time between the official warmup period and my race.

Besides preparing your body for best performance, the pre-meet warmup is also the time to get used to the pool: the blocks, the angles off the walls, considering how the sun will be at race time (if you are swimming backstroke outdoors), things like that. If it is really crowded, it is hard to do turns at race speed, but I always try to get in a few backstroke starts to get used to the blocks and pads. When it comes time to race, you don't want to be flustered by the unexpected. It is best if you consider these things as you are warming up in the main competition pool. For example, "what will this wall look like at full speed?" Visualize yourself doing it.

At end-of-the-season meets I am usually shaved, and I absolutely love the feeling of warming up under those conditions. I convince myself how fast I am going and how effortless it is. Warming up is partly a mind game.

You should plan your pre-race warmups (and putting on your tech suit) well ahead of time. Look at the timeline and decide exactly when you are going to put on your suit and get in the water. Give yourself plenty of time, you don't want to be rushing around worried that you'll miss your race or not get enough warmup in.

I don't do a lot during pre-race warmups, really, unless it has been a long time since I last swam. Lots of easy swimming. I'll do some 25s underwater kicks (not at full speed), especially if it is before a backstroke race. Generally just get yourself ready for the race. Get used to the feel of the tech suit, if you are wearing one. I do a lot of stretching and bobbing, maybe more than anything else. One thing I like about pre-race warmups is that the water is supporting you, you don't have to waste energy standing or walking or even sitting.