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david.margrave
February 17th, 2009, 01:12 AM
I'm going to try this stuff out. I've been getting calf cramps the last 30 minutes of 90 minute workouts, depending on the types of sets we're doing (it's worse on distance sets).

I saw a guy in my group chugging something after workout and he said he's less sore the next day if he drinks it.

qbrain
February 17th, 2009, 08:22 AM
I am a big fan of endurox, but I am not sure it will help with your calf cramps.

I do take a multivitamin before morning practice, so if your cramps are caused by a lack of potassium, that might help. Just drinking water during practice might help too.

Speedo
February 17th, 2009, 08:36 AM
FWIW, I use Cytomax, which is an artifact of my mountain bike racing days. I swim mornings, and do not eat prior to practice. I eat the night before and take a multivitamin with dinner, which I believe has helped me with cramping. But I drink the Cytomax post workout only, not during, for fear of stomach issues.

CreamPuff
February 17th, 2009, 08:37 AM
Watch out for the amount of sugar in endurox/ accelerade. Who knows, you may like it.

I chose Hammer products (heed/ recoverite/ endurolytes) b/c they have less sugar and calories. Sugar makes me hungry and I try and stay as light as possible (although I'm still a tank) for swimming. And no, I don't have anything to do with selling the products.

SwimStud
February 17th, 2009, 08:42 AM
I use endurox on my heavier workout load days (e.g. swim and lift) or if it's a really tough workout. It does help reduce soreness and leave you ready to go again. I don't worry about the sugar...my separate cardio workouts take care of that.

aquageek
February 17th, 2009, 09:36 AM
These products are not worth the high cost. They are loaded with sugar and taste terrible, unless they are very cold.

I agree with She-Puffy, Hammer is better stuff, but it isn't cheap either.

CreamPuff
February 17th, 2009, 09:39 AM
These products are not worth the high cost. They are loaded with sugar and taste terrible, unless they are very cold.

I agree with She-Puffy, Hammer is better stuff, but it isn't cheap either.

They are pricey. And, I found I did not need anything except water until I changed to swimming USS with the kids. I needed some heavy duty nutrition b/c we can hit a lot of high intensity yardage in 2 hours.

Speedo
February 17th, 2009, 10:11 AM
Performance Bicycle has big discounts on powders (endurox, cytomax, accelerade- I didn't see Hammer, though) in the wintertime so check out their website when you decide what you want. I don't work for them, I'm just cheap. http://www.performancebike.com/index.cfm

knelson
February 17th, 2009, 10:24 AM
You might also try drinking something like Gatorade, or a mix of Gatorade and water, during workouts.

aquageek
February 17th, 2009, 10:36 AM
Performance Bicycle has big discounts on powders (endurox, cytomax, accelerade- I didn't see Hammer, though) in the wintertime so check out their website when you decide what you want. I don't work for them, I'm just cheap. http://www.performancebike.com/index.cfm

Even better is Nashbar.com, owned by Performance, but with cheaper prices than Performance.

Speedo
February 17th, 2009, 10:45 AM
but with cheaper prices than Performance.
Ooo- thanks.

Doug Adamavich
February 17th, 2009, 10:46 AM
I use Accelerade during heavy training cycles and it works really well. I think it takes a while to acquire a taste for it but if you dilute it slightly, it is more drinkable. Water alone does not do it, you need the electrolytes, protein, and vitamins.

During meets I will drink Hammer's Heed product because it is lighter than the others and tastes pretty good. That helps residual soreness a lot, especially the day after.

I normally get these at bike stores, especially when they are on sale. Performance normally have the best price but I regard them as the Wal-Mart of the biking market :2cents:

david.margrave
February 17th, 2009, 10:57 AM
I ordered the smallest containers available from amazon, just to try it out. One endurox and one accelerade. I'm sure there's a lot of clever marketing and mark-up on these products, but I'll give it a try.

david.margrave
February 17th, 2009, 10:59 AM
During meets I will drink Hammer's Heed product because it is lighter than the others and tastes pretty good. That helps residual soreness a lot, especially the day after.

I bet you need something more than water in the Arizona heat. I went to a meet in Tempe in June and the heat was brutal. I spent the last half camped out in the locker room (air conditioned) and almost missed an event.

Then nationals in Portland was nearly as bad, and no convenient AC to retreat to.

aztimm
February 17th, 2009, 11:16 AM
FWIW, I use Cytomax, .

That stuff is just plain NASTY. They must have been a sponsor of the Phoenix-PF Chang's Marathon, as it was the only drink available on the course (or after), other than water. A couple guys I know got sick from it, and I was pretty close.

Personally, I drink either plain Gatorade (the green forumla) mixed with a ton of ice (one of the rare times I use the ice crusher in my fridge)....or more recently G2, also with some crushed ice (for some reason they didn't release the lime G2 until recently). Yea, after a long workout (like a 15-mile run), your body does need some electrolytes, but certainly doesn't need all the carbs in most of these drinks, unless you're doing some MAJOR distances.

qbrain
February 17th, 2009, 11:21 AM
I ordered the smallest containers available from amazon, just to try it out. One endurox and one accelerade. I'm sure there's a lot of clever marketing and mark-up on these products, but I'll give it a try.

Sorry. You could have gotten a $3 packet. It is the most expensive way to purchase it, but it is the cheapest way to try it out.

Fruit Punch is my favorite.

orca1946
February 17th, 2009, 11:23 AM
Do you do enough leg workouts in the gym?? All the extra chemicals wiil help, but workout will do the best!

david.margrave
February 17th, 2009, 11:24 AM
Do you do enough leg workouts in the gym?? All the extra chemicals wiil help, but workout will do the best!

I do, plenty, 2 or 3 times a week on alternate days from swimming.

Cmonster
February 17th, 2009, 11:33 AM
I will back up Hammer products. I love them...now that i'am used to them. It takes a little while. Without all the sugar and artificial flavorings like gatorade and accelerade Heed can come off a little bland. The new strawberry is good though.

At times I give in and use watered down accelerade.

If you really want to get your nutrition down go for Hammer, if you are just trying to combat some cramping go with what tastes good to you. About 80 minutes into a workout I'm fending off calf cramps as well.

mctrusty
February 17th, 2009, 11:49 AM
I also like Hammer for longer, high intensity workouts and 10K swims.

Yesterday, though, I brought a banana and ate it halfway thru. I felt great during the second half of my workout--better than I usually do with sports drinks.

pwolf66
February 17th, 2009, 12:24 PM
Then nationals in Portland was nearly as bad, and no convenient AC to retreat to.


Actually the warm up pool wasn't that bad. Or at the top of the bleachers in the shade.

Karen Duggan
February 17th, 2009, 12:24 PM
I just had this discussion with a lanemate yesterday.
I love the fruit punch Accelerade. It's cheaper if you buy it on-line through the Acclerade (or whatever lab it is) site.
I drink 12 oz during an hour workout.

aquageek
February 17th, 2009, 12:30 PM
I dilute Gatorade to about 3/4 of the recommended strength. That seems more than adequate for a 90 minute workout, 24 ounces. If I have a blow out workout day I'll eat a clif bar and maybe another 24 ounces of gatorade, and then a bag of Chex Mix when I get home, and a pizza.

chaos
February 17th, 2009, 01:26 PM
hammer products fan here.

high fructose corn syrup is evil and lurks in many "sports products" including gatorade.

aztimm
February 17th, 2009, 01:28 PM
high fructose corn syrup is evil and lurks in many "sports products" including gatorade.

I agree, which is why I recommend G2, as it doesn't have high fructose corn syrup.

Jazz Hands
February 17th, 2009, 01:37 PM
HFCS is just sugar. Too much sugar is bad, but you're probably not going to be healthier by substituting one form for another.

aquageek
February 17th, 2009, 01:45 PM
HFCS is just sugar. Too much sugar is bad, but you're probably not going to be healthier by substituting one form for another.

Jazzy is right, nothing more than sugar. People get all crazy about it but I figure the working out outweighs the alleged negative impact. Gatorade is my treat for working out.

Speedo
February 17th, 2009, 03:02 PM
That stuff is just plain NASTY. They must have been a sponsor of the Phoenix-PF Chang's Marathon, as it was the only drink available on the course (or after), other than water. A couple guys I know got sick from it, and I was pretty close.
I guess it's what you're used to. I get the tropical fruit flavor and don't mind it at all, although I dilute it a good bit. Can't speak to getting sick from it since I only have it post-workout and don't have any problems. That said, in recent times I have also combined several opened spaghetti sauce jars into one to save space in the fridge.

Doug Adamavich
February 17th, 2009, 04:46 PM
Actually, Amino Vital is pretty decent-tasting too. I have only had it a few times but don't have anything bad to say about it. I think they are still a USMS sponsor, right? I had some in between events at Federal Way in 2007 and it was better than most for sure.

slowfish
February 17th, 2009, 06:57 PM
I ordered the smallest containers available from amazon, just to try it out. One endurox and one accelerade. I'm sure there's a lot of clever marketing and mark-up on these products, but I'll give it a try.

enduox and accelerade are designed for 2 different purposes. accelerade is designed for long easy workouts. i wouldn't use it before or during intense workouts because the protien is tough to digest when you are going hard. it's also hard to digest in the heat.

endurox is a recovery beverage designed to have the "perfect" mix of protien and carbs for optimum recovery within 1/2 hr of a workout. chocolate milk has been found to do the very same thing and is much tastier :applaud:. but if you can't travel with your chocolate milk, a slimfast shake has a good combination of protien and carbs to be a good post recovery workout drink too. not as tasty as the chocolate milk but not horrible if it's cold.

for cramping, you can try taking a calcium/magnesum tablet every day and look at drinks such as cytomax, gu2o, and gatorade. they are lighter and easier to digest when you are going hard.

chaos
February 17th, 2009, 09:43 PM
Jazzy is right, nothing more than sugar. People get all crazy about it but I figure the working out outweighs the alleged negative impact. Gatorade is my treat for working out.

not all sugars are created equal (no pun intened)
http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=2263

Jazz Hands
February 17th, 2009, 10:28 PM
not all sugars are created equal (no pun intened)
http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=2263

There are soooo many errors in that article it's ridiculous. I'll just point out the big one. High fructose corn syrup is not the same thing as fructose, and cane sugar is not the same thing as glucose. Both products contain both fructose and glucose in very similar ratios. Therefore, most of what you can say about HFCS also applies to cane sugar.

chaos
February 18th, 2009, 10:40 AM
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/30/still-spooked-by-high-fructose-corn-syrup/

zippy81
February 18th, 2009, 11:32 AM
I second the chocolate milk post workout. Soy has the same 4-1 ratio of carb to protein that regular milk and the expensive recovery drinks have.

As far as gatorade, the mix, which is much cheaper, doesn't have HFCS. I like it diluted during heavy workouts.

Jazz Hands
February 18th, 2009, 02:22 PM
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/30/still-spooked-by-high-fructose-corn-syrup/

Again, where is the distinction between HFCS and other forms of sugar? The study cited there was about sugary soda, not HFCS. Sugar is sugar.

Iwannafly
February 18th, 2009, 02:27 PM
And, one could argue that sugar cane, grown in the quantities to sate our thirst for soda and our appetite for sugar, would be just as environmentally harmful, if not more so, than corn. Sugar cane requires more water to grow. Regardless of where the sugar comes from, the quantities we consume are going to cause some environmental impacts.

chaos
February 18th, 2009, 03:54 PM
Again, where is the distinction between HFCS and other forms of sugar? The study cited there was about sugary soda, not HFCS. Sugar is sugar.

http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html

there are only about a million papers available to anyone looking for them.

aquageek
February 18th, 2009, 04:12 PM
I really think if you are terrified of corn syrup you are probably already a healthy person. I mean, of all the things in a diet to stress over, this has to be at the bottom of the list. I can live with corn syrup, I'm not chugging it.

chaos
February 18th, 2009, 04:25 PM
I really think if you are terrified of corn syrup you are probably already a healthy person. I mean, of all the things in a diet to stress over, this has to be at the bottom of the list. I can live with corn syrup, I'm not chugging it.

you don't have to chug it, its everywhere... kind of like where hydrogenated oils were a couple of years ago. but i try to avoid excessive sugar of any variety (and as much processed food as is possible).

thewookiee
February 18th, 2009, 04:54 PM
Anyone tried Powerade Zero?

Jazz Hands
February 18th, 2009, 05:13 PM
http://www.westonaprice.org/modernfood/highfructose.html

there are only about a million papers available to anyone looking for them.

Again, for the third freaking time, the same exact mistake. High fructose corn syrup is not higher in fructose than other forms of sugar. Can you stop linking to what someone else says and try thinking for once?


High fructose corn syrup can be manipulated to contain equal amounts of fructose and glucose, or up to 80 percent fructose and 20 percent glucose. Thus, with almost twice the fructose, HFCS delivers a double danger compared to sugar.

This is from the article you just linked to. It is a very disingenuous trick to say that because HFCS can have up to 80 percent fructose it necessarily does. It doesn't. Therefore, the remainder of that article is based upon an incorrect assumption. The HFCS in the food that people actually consume is about 50/50 fructose/glucose, just like sucrose.

chaos
February 19th, 2009, 12:27 AM
This is from the article you just linked to. It is a very disingenuous trick to say that because HFCS can have up to 80 percent fructose it necessarily does. It doesn't. Therefore, the remainder of that article is based upon an incorrect assumption. The HFCS in the food that people actually consume is about 50/50 fructose/glucose, just like sucrose.

jazzy,
you obviously love the stuff so... if you will pm me your address, i will send you a bottle of caro (light or dark, your choice) that you can slather all over your frosted flakes or enjoy straight out of the bottle.

One of the primary flaws inherent with most sports drinks is their reliance on simple sugar as the carbohydrate source. The use of simple sugar such as glucose, sucrose, and fructose not only severely limits the amount of calories that can be efficiently digested and utilized for energy, it may cause wild fluctuations in energy levels. (from hammer... if i were a chemist, i would think for myself regarding this topic, but since others have already done the work, i may as well stand on their shoulders)

qbrain
February 19th, 2009, 09:17 AM
One of the primary flaws inherent with most sports drinks is their reliance on simple sugar as the carbohydrate source. The use of simple sugar such as glucose, sucrose, and fructose not only severely limits the amount of calories that can be efficiently digested and utilized for energy, it may cause wild fluctuations in energy levels. (from hammer... if i were a chemist, i would think for myself regarding this topic, but since others have already done the work, i may as well stand on their shoulders)

Advertising is not research. This is research: http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/83/6/1877

If you can find where maltodextrin is shown to be a better carb than any other carb for post workout recovery drinks, I would love to see it.

Maltodextrin has the same absorption rates as glucose, and a higher glycemic index, neither fact backs up Hammer's advertising claim of being a more stable energy source nor having a higher absorption rate than sugar.

I use Endurox and I am happy to recommend it to other people. Yep, it has sugar in it. Lots. And I find that yummy.

When it comes to one sports drink over another, use the one that you like the best. This is probably a taste difference more than anything since the formulations of macronutrients is approximately the same when comparing protein+carb drinks.

SwimStud
February 19th, 2009, 09:24 AM
Nutrition. Everything in moderation. Stressing too much over ingredients may just be stressful.

Everyone gets to die...

mctrusty
February 19th, 2009, 11:57 AM
jazzy,
you obviously love the stuff so... if you will pm me your address, i will send you a bottle of caro (light or dark, your choice) that you can slather all over your frosted flakes or enjoy straight out of the bottle.


Really, from past comments, I gather he's probably one of the more diet conscious forumites and probably watches his sugar intake more closely than most.

I understand his point -- the most commonly used forms of HFCS (42 and 55) have the same fructose concentration as sucrose, which was used to sweeten foods before HFCS.

Like in:
Guthrie, FJ; Morton FJ (2000). "Food sources of added sweeteners in the diets of Americans". Journals of American Dietetic Association 100: 4351.

chaos
February 19th, 2009, 12:23 PM
I understand his point -- the most commonly used forms of HFCS (42 and 55) have the same fructose concentration as sucrose, which was used to sweeten foods before HFCS.

Like in:
Guthrie, FJ; Morton FJ (2000). "Food sources of added sweeteners in the diets of Americans". Journals of American Dietetic Association 100: 4351.

i understand the point as well.
hammer provides links to the information contained in their advertising and i will leave it to the dedicated refrence librarians here to either follow those on their own time or not.

1. Beatrice Trum Hunter, "Confusing Consumers About Sugar Intake," CONSUMERS' RESEARCH 78, no 1 (January 1995): 14-17.

2. Judith Hallfrisch, "Metabolic Effects of Dietary Fructose," FASEB JOURNAL 4 (June 1990): 2652-2660.

3. H. F. Bunn and P. J. Higgins, "Reaction of Nonosaccharides with Proteins; Possible Evolutionary Significance." SCIENCE 213 (1981): 2222-2244.

4. William L Dills Jr., "Protein Fructosylation: Fructose and the Maillard Reaction," AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION 58 (suppl) (1993): 779S-787S.

5. J. Hallfrisch et al., "The Effects of Fructose on Blood Lipid Levels," AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION 37, no, 3 (1983): 740-748

6. Claire B. Hollenbeck, "Dietary Fructose Effects on Lipoprotein Metabolism and Risk for Coronary Artery Disease," AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION 58 (suppl), (1993): 800S-807S.

7. Hallfrisch, 1990.

8. J. Macdonald, Anne Keyser, and Deborah Pacy, "Some Effects, in Man, of Varying the Load of Glucose, Sucrose, Fructose, or Sorbitol on Various Metabolites in Blood," AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION 31 (August 1978)): 1305-1311.

9. D. Zakim and R. H. Herman, A Fructose Metabolism II, @ AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION 21: 315-319, 1968

10. A. E. Bender and K. B. Damji, "Some Effects of Dietary Sucrose," WORLD REVIEW OF NUTRITION AND DIETETICS 15 (1972): 104-155.

11. Hunter

12. Hunter

13. A. E. Bergstra, A. G. Lemmens, and A. C. Beynens, "Dietary Fructose vs. Glucose Stimulates Nephrocalcinogenesis in Female Rats," JOURNAL OF NUTRITION 123, no. 7 (July 1993): 1320-1327.

14. R. Ivaturi and C. Kies, "Mineral Balances in Humans as Affected by Fructose, High Fructose Corn Syrup and Sucrose," PLANT FOODS FOR HUMAN NUTRITION 42, no. 2 (1992): 143-151.

15. J. J. Rumessen and E. Gudmand-Hoyer, "Functional Bowel Disease: Malabsorption and Abdominal Distress After Ingestion of Fructose, Sorbitol, and Fructose-Sorbitol Mixtures," GASTROENTEROLOGY 95, no. 3 (September 1988): 694-700.

16. Roger B. Mc Donald, "Influence of Dietary Sucrose on Biological Aging," AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION 62 (suppl), (1995): 284s-293s.

17. www.NutritionNewsFocus.com, May 25, 2000.

18. H. Hallfrisch, et al., AThe Effects of Fructose on Blood Lipid Levels, @ AMERICAN JOURNAL OF CLINICAL NUTRITION, 37: 5, 1983, 740-748.

19. Klevay, Leslie, acting director of the U.S. Agriculture Department Human Nutrition Research Center, Grand Forks, N.D.

20. Hollenback

21. Hallfrisch.

22. Hunter

qbrain
February 19th, 2009, 02:20 PM
i understand the point as well.
hammer provides links to the information contained in their advertising and i will leave it to the dedicated refrence librarians here to either follow those on their own time or not.


Most of the references have nothing to do with the subject matter and the ones that do, do not back Hammer's position.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with their drink, but their references are just advertising, not research.

1. I don't consider this a valid source. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Consumers%27_Research

2. "Therefore, fructose may be considered no worse than other sugars, but also no better." http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/reprint/4/9/2652

3. This article is about evolutionary biology. http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/213/4504/222

4. This article is about fructose and the Maillard reaction and makes a comparison to glucose in the same reaction. Making candies and carmels are examples of the Maillard reaction. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/58/5/779S

5. Incorrectly cited. The name of the article is actually "Blood lipid distribution of hyperinsulinemic men consuming three levels of fructose". This paper compares fructose to starch and finds that replacing 7.5% or 15% of your starch with fructose will raise your LDLs. Since the comparison is strictly between starch and fructose, this doesn't tell you anything about different sugar substitutes.

6. First sentence of the conclusion: "Perhaps the most general conclusion that could be drawn from this review of the effects of dietary fructose on lipoprotein metabolism is how little we actually know." This article is a review of previous work, and thus a poor citation. You cite the original source when possible.

7. See 2

8. Most important finding that I can identify is that fructose evokes minimal increases in insulin when compared to glucose and sucrose. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/31/8/1305.pdf

9. Explains how and why fructose is metabolised differently than glucose. Does not compare the effects of the two on the body in any way. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/21/4/315.pdf

10. Cannot find a copy of the article.

11. See 1

12. See 2

13. Fructose vs. glucose in the purified diet of female rats raised kidney calcium contents. http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/123/7/1320.pdf

14. Results were the same for HFCS and sucrose, but straight fructose caused diarrhea and higher mineral loss. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1574483

15. This is a study on people who have functional bowel disease. Not helpful. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3396816

16. "Theme is much uncertainty in the scientific community megamding the association between dietary sucrose and the health of elderly people and how, if at all, consumption of diets high in sucrose influences the average life span." http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/reprint/62/1/284S.pdf

17. Great reference! Joking of course, the website doesn't exist anymore.

18. Quotes are not evidence.

19. See 6

20. See 2

21. See 1

mctrusty
February 19th, 2009, 03:33 PM
"He's a good man. And thorough."

Jazz Hands
February 19th, 2009, 03:42 PM
"He's a good man. And thorough."

Love it. Great debunking, qbrain.

chaos
February 19th, 2009, 08:23 PM
gentlemen,
i have no vested interest in the promotion of hammer products. i started using them at the recommendation of several accomplished athletes that i admire and have had great success with them. having said that, it makes no sense for me to defend any claims regarding matters such as absorption rates or blood lipid levels..... my endorsement comes only from my preferences and experience, not from a journal.
i have forwarded a link to this thread to hammer. they certainly do have reason to defend the information they post. if they choose to respond, i will happily post it and the discussion can continue ad infinitum or not.

chaos
February 20th, 2009, 02:16 PM
as promised:

Hello David -

Thanks for your email. I'm currently out of town, awaiting my next flight
of the current work-related trip I'm on, but I wanted to forward some
information for you in the hopes that it will provide the information that
you and the forum members seek. BTW, I didn't see any specific negative
responses to the Hammer products, most of them seemed pretty positive
actually, and the specific criticism ("a lot of clever marketing and
mark-up on these products") was directed at a couple non-Hammer products.

At any rate, here are some articles on our web site that should provide a
lot of useful and referenced information. Perhaps the most
technically-oriented one is "Carbohydrates 101- the performance-limiting
fuel all you wanted to know about the why's, when's, and what's of carbs,
and much more..."
(http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=294). This
was written by Dr. Bill Misner and is pretty much the "hallmark paper" or
"position paper" on what carbohydrate sources are ideal for fueling the
body.

Another article that discusses the advantage of complex carbs over simple
sugars is "Osmolality Review: the biochemistry of fuels absorption"
(http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=297) and
here is a portion of what Dr. Misner wrote (note that references appear at
the end of the article)...

" Simple-sugar solutions at body fluid osmolality levels are slowly
absorbed at the rate of 6-8% maximum due to employing fructose or sucrose
for sweetening. Simple sugars dramatically resist gastric transition when
internal body temperatures rise proportionate to time, intensity of pace,
duration, fluid and electrolyte losses. Such increases from body fluid and
electrolyte depletion may permit only 3-5% sugar solutions to absorb in
most athletes, before stomach upset, cramping, or muscle failure occurs.
When a solution containing simple sugars is added to one containing
complex carbohydrates, osmolality may double, imposing gastric stress
during endurance events."

"Simple sugars added to complex carbohydrates may refuse gastric entry due
to increasing solution hypertonic values. If body fluids and electrolytes
are depleted, the least ideal option is to ingest a simple sugar product
with one that contains only complex carbohydrates."

Other articles of interest:

"Fructose (corn syrup) is No Answer For a Sweetener"
(http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=2263)

"Fructose Called Most Dangerous Sugar"
(http://www.hammernutrition.com/downloads/ENews/ENissue58.pdf - begins on
page 1)

"High Fructose Corn Syrup is Associated with Obesity - NO MYTHS ABOUT IT!"
(http://www.hammernutrition.com/downloads/ENews/ENissue57.pdf)

NOTE: In the next issue of Endurance News (#62), there's yet another
article about High Fructose Corn Syrup entitled "High Fructose Corn Syrup
The news just gets worse and worse!"

"Fructose Sweeteners Negatively Impact Blood Sugar and Lipid Metabolism
Inhibiting Energy Production"
(http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=2262)

"Dietary Fructose or Fructose Containing Sweeteners Negatively Impact Health"
(http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=1265)

"Simple Sugars and Complex Carbohydrates An Incompatible Combination"
(http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=2890)

"113 ways sugar can ruin your health"
(http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=287)

"Aspartame toxicity: observed side-effects from food & drink"
(http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=ARTICLE&ARTICLE.ID=289)

I believe that if the readership on the forum will take the time to review
the information in the articles, as well as the scientific references that
provide the rationale for this information, I think they may have a
different opinion of simple sugars (especially HFCS) as compared to
complex carbohydrates.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions, and thank you
again for contacting us.

Sincerely -

Steve Born
Senior Advisor
Hammer Nutrition
www.hammernutrition.com

aquageek
February 20th, 2009, 02:21 PM
I have to say I'm finding this discussion very interesting - keep it up.

mctrusty
February 20th, 2009, 02:32 PM
No offer of free samples?

I've used hammer before, but it sure is expensive. If I need to refuel on the cheap I usually just take a 2 minute break and have a banana and some water.

:banana:

qbrain
February 20th, 2009, 03:13 PM
Look chaos, believe whatever you want.

The first article is authored by a guy who got his PhD in Holistic Nutrition from a home study course, I **** you not.

The second article is the article that I addressed all 21 references yesterday.

I am not going to look at the others. I am not trying to claim that the Hammer products are bad, I am claiming that their claims are advertising. There is evidence stating that protein+carbs aide in the recovery process more than a sugar solution or plain water. That is what Hammer is, and that is what Endurox is.

I am not trying to convince you my sugar+whey protein is better than your maltodextrin+whey protein, but I am trying to convince you that Hammer's claims that their products are better than some other companies equivalent products are complete ********.

To summarize, I am not anti-product or anti-water, but I am anti-misleading advertising.

chaos
February 20th, 2009, 03:30 PM
Look chaos, believe whatever you want.

The first article is authored by a guy who got his PhD in Holistic Nutrition from a home study course, I **** you not.

The second article is the article that I addressed all 21 references yesterday.

I am not going to look at the others. I am not trying to claim that the Hammer products are bad, I am claiming that their claims are advertising. There is evidence stating that protein+carbs aide in the recovery process more than a sugar solution or plain water. That is what Hammer is, and that is what Endurox is.

I am not trying to convince you my sugar+whey protein is better than your maltodextrin+whey protein, but I am trying to convince you that Hammer's claims that their products are better than some other companies equivalent products are complete ********.

To summarize, I am not anti-product or anti-water, but I am anti-misleading advertising.

didn't post it with the intent to convince you to change products. as previously stated, i have no vested interest here but this thread started with an inquiry and i don't believe that "sugar is sugar" was an answer that does said question justice. so...... there is information. do with it what you will.

The Fortress
February 20th, 2009, 03:42 PM
The first article is authored by a guy who got his PhD in Holistic Nutrition from a home study course, I **** you not.

This is hilarious.

I just ordered some Hammer Recoverite the other day before reading all this. I guess the only thing I can be assured of is that it has less calories ...

mctrusty
February 20th, 2009, 04:09 PM
I just keep a small flask of Bushmills by the pool edge. That really stokes the fire.

Jazz Hands
February 20th, 2009, 04:18 PM
This is hilarious.

I just ordered some Hammer Recoverite the other day before reading all this. I guess the only thing I can be assured of is that it has less calories ...

Not to rain on your parade, but you can always water things down to decrease calories.

qbrain is absolutely right. Carbs and protein post-workout is effective. Supplement companies try to make this sound way more complicated than it really is. You can't just have any carbs, no! You must have our specially engineered maltodextrin that has been filtered through rare humpback baleen for ultimate purity!

Personally, I have fruit after I work out. Food is a lot cheaper than supplements.

qbrain
February 20th, 2009, 04:55 PM
i don't believe that "sugar is sugar" was an answer that does said question justice.

You are right. Jazz this is all your fault. :bitching:

I did learn one thing yesterday while pretending to be a research librarian. Large amounts of fructose can cause diaherra, but an even glucose/fructose mix, like what is found in sucrose and HFCS used in food and beverages, was fine.

So sugar is not sugar, fructose is sugar that gives you the ****s.


I just ordered some Hammer Recoverite the other day before reading all this. I guess the only thing I can be assured of is that it has less calories ...

Endurox has 4:1 carb to protein and uses sucrose as a sweetener, Recoverite has 3:1 carb to protein and uses stevia as a sweetener. You could make something similar with whey protein, sugar and sugar free kool aide, or drink fat free chocolate milk. All are more similar than different, so if you like it, who cares about the advertising.

Leonard Jansen
February 20th, 2009, 05:01 PM
I like Accelerade although I make it as 3 parts Lemon-Lime or Orange Accelerade/1 part Gu Tri-Berry gel. It cuts the sweetness (important since I don't have a sweet tooth) and seems to work as well as pure Accelerade.

BTW, if you don't like the price of Accelerade, you can make your own with some effort for alot cheaper. Just get the patent number(s) off a can, go to the US government's patent office web site and look up the patent. The ingredients are listed and you can figure out the amounts. Then get the basic ingredients from a discount health website or similar and make your own. You can do this pretty much for any supplement with a patent number.

-LBJ

mctrusty
February 20th, 2009, 05:34 PM
I like Accelerade although I make it as 3 parts Lemon-Lime or Orange Accelerade/1 part Gu Tri-Berry gel. It cuts the sweetness (important since I don't have a sweet tooth) and seems to work as well as pure Accelerade.

BTW, if you don't like the price of Accelerade, you can make your own with some effort for alot cheaper. Just get the patent number(s) off a can, go to the US government's patent office web site and look up the patent. The ingredients are listed and you can figure out the amounts. Then get the basic ingredients from a discount health website or similar and make your own. You can do this pretty much for any supplement with a patent number.

-LBJ

Sports drink hacking. I like it.

The Fortress
March 1st, 2009, 12:11 PM
So I've tried Recoverite the last few days. Makes me nauseous, one day for about 3-4 hours. Anyone had this experience?

qbrain
March 1st, 2009, 01:35 PM
So I've tried Recoverite the last few days. Makes me nauseous, one day for about 3-4 hours. Anyone had this experience?

I have only experienced it when reading their research.

Do you have any allergies or did you prepare it and then not drink it immediately? Is another mini-fort in development?

The Fortress
March 1st, 2009, 01:54 PM
I have only experienced it when reading their research.

Do you have any allergies or did you prepare it and then not drink it immediately? Is another mini-fort in development?

No to food allergies.

No to preparing it in advance.

No x 1,000,000 to any more mini-forts.

I don't remember this from accelerade or endurox. I'm still nauseous hours after practice. :bitching:

Anyone tried Pure Sport? Or is that essentially the same as gatorade?

qbrain
March 1st, 2009, 02:39 PM
Anyone tried Pure Sport? Or is that essentially the same as gatorade?

Yeah, I have had puresport. It tastes sweeter than Endurox R4 to me, but the carb/protein ratio is 2.6/1 instead of 4:1.

Recoverite has Xylitol in it, which can upset your stomach.

Jazz Hands
March 1st, 2009, 03:41 PM
Anyone tried Pure Sport? Or is that essentially the same as gatorade?

It's disgusting.

You know, these sports drinks are just sugar and water, sometimes with protein. Have some fruit or milk or something. Real food.

Chris Stevenson
March 1st, 2009, 03:53 PM
You know, these sports drinks are just sugar and water, sometimes with protein. Have some fruit or milk or something. Real food.

Have to say, I'm with Jazz on this. The only time I use a sports drink -- usually diluted gatorade -- is on a ride or workout that's long enough (120 min or more) where I know water alone won't cut it.

qbrain
March 1st, 2009, 04:28 PM
You know, these sports drinks are just sugar and water, sometimes with protein. Have some fruit or milk or something. Real food.


Have to say, I'm with Jazz on this. The only time I use a sports drink -- usually diluted gatorade -- is on a ride or workout that's long enough (120 min or more) where I know water alone won't cut it.

Jazz, when you get older... Just kidding. :)

I agree with both of you to a point. I drink about a gallon of water a day, 3 or 4 scoops of Endurox R4 a week and about 24oz of full strength Gatorade a month.

That is more than either of you, but I am not using it as a meal replacement.

Sugar and water (a 6% glucose solution iirc) has been shown to increase the uptake of water, increasing the rate of rehydration. A carb+protein solution has been shown to increase muscle glycogen uptake when used within 30 minutes post workout.

Fruit has fiber and milk has fat, both decrease absorption rates, which is usually good, but bad post workout when your body is primed for a high insulin, high sugar state.

So drink skim milk? You think puresport is disgusting? How about skim milk that has been sitting on the pool deck for a few hours? Yum yum.

Sports drinks are a useful tool and they make a big difference in how I feel, post-practice or post-meet.

Jazz Hands
March 1st, 2009, 04:38 PM
So drink skim milk? You think puresport is disgusting? How about skim milk that has been sitting on the pool deck for a few hours? Yum yum.

Fair enough. I often go home and have a full meal after I work out, or I buy something on campus.

The Fortress
March 1st, 2009, 05:34 PM
After I swim or workout, I'm usually in the car for at least an hour driving kids to practice. Not conducive to food/milk so much, and I hate milk anyway. I have a stash of balance bars in the car. Because I have some trouble with recovery, I feel I need to try something. I'll switch to gatorade or endurox and see how that works.

Jazz Hands
March 1st, 2009, 05:46 PM
Balance Bars aren't bad. In your situation, Fort, I would go with one of those plus a banana. Multiply by however hungry you are. I'm not as steadfast as qbrain about high GI post-workout. Since I generally eat low GI, that recommendation always seemed a bit suspect to me.

qbrain
March 1st, 2009, 07:35 PM
Fair enough. I often go home and have a full meal after I work out, or I buy something on campus.

When you get older, you won't live on campus. :banana:

Thank you, thank you, I will be here all night.

But in general, I agree with you and Chris more than I disagree. Nutrition seems to be one of those areas where quality and time are inversely related.

qbrain
March 1st, 2009, 07:53 PM
Balance Bars aren't bad. In your situation, Fort, I would go with one of those plus a banana. Multiply by however hungry you are. I'm not as steadfast as qbrain about high GI post-workout. Since I generally eat low GI, that recommendation always seemed a bit suspect to me.

My post swimming meal is loaded with sugar, that is true.

Post lifting I usually just eat a normal meal since I lift at home and lift right before dinner.

I am not advocating that you eat chocolate cake after workout (but it has eggs. It has milk. It has wheat. Nutritious!).

ALM
March 1st, 2009, 10:45 PM
I am not advocating that you eat chocolate cake after workout (but it has eggs. It has milk. It has wheat. Nutritious!).

Hey, can I get you to delete this post before my hubby reads it? Otherwise he'll try to use that "nutritious" argument on me. I already feel like the "nutrition cop" around here... :coffee: :cake: :dinner:

The Fortress
March 1st, 2009, 11:01 PM
Hey, can I get you to delete this post before my hubby reads it? Otherwise he'll try to use that "nutritious" argument on me. I already feel like the "nutrition cop" around here... :coffee: :cake: :dinner:

Wait a minute, here ... Just remind him how happy he was about his recent BMI!

pwb
March 2nd, 2009, 12:35 AM
After I swim or workout, I'm usually in the car for at least an hour driving kids to practice. Not conducive to food/milk so much, and I hate milk anyway. I have a stash of balance bars in the car. Because I have some trouble with recovery, I feel I need to try something. I'll switch to gatorade or endurox and see how that works.

Fort, I haven't kept up with this whole thread, but the best testing & most easily digestible protein-oriented bar I've found is a 30g Protein bar from Premier Nutrition. I pick these up from Costco and usually carry them with me on business travel to avoid the Mongo Choco Chunk cookies I see at every airport. I'll often have one during non-travel days as a snack.

My wife and I also have been using Heed recently as a drink, she for running and me for swimming. It seems to go down more smoothly than the others, as well. Very mild, but good taste.

swimcat
March 2nd, 2009, 08:49 AM
I like Accelerade although I make it as 3 parts Lemon-Lime or Orange Accelerade/1 part Gu Tri-Berry gel. It cuts the sweetness (important since I don't have a sweet tooth) and seems to work as well as pure Accelerade.

BTW, if you don't like the price of Accelerade, you can make your own with some effort for alot cheaper. Just get the patent number(s) off a can, go to the US government's patent office web site and look up the patent. The ingredients are listed and you can figure out the amounts. Then get the basic ingredients from a discount health website or similar and make your own. You can do this pretty much for any supplement with a patent number.

-LBJ


my accelerade is also mostly water. it says one scoop to 12 ounces, but mine is more like 1 scoop to 14 or 16 ounces. sometimes it i mix it too sugary i chase it with water. not often though.
i do think it bloats you. that's why i quit drinking powerade. i used to drink only water but i always felt out of energy and weak .

david.margrave
November 23rd, 2009, 11:40 PM
I haven't been drinking any of this stuff before or after workouts lately. Tonight while warming down, the last 25 I decide to practice a backstroke start. Well, right after the start I got a positively brutal cramp in the right calf. I mean, the muscle was cramped up hard as a rock for 30 seconds, shaking or stretching did nothing, all I could do was wait. You'll know what I'm talking about if you've ever experienced it.

After workout I went straight to the nearest store and bought a gatorade and banana which I immediately consumed. Once I got home, still sore, I decide to try two scoops of endurox. I'll post an update tomorrow.

david.margrave
November 24th, 2009, 01:29 PM
Still quite sore today, I kind of have to hop around. I'm now keenly interested in how to avoid a repeat in the future (drinking something before and during work out), because once you've had one of these I think what you consume afterward is not going to help much in reducing soreness.

The Fortress
November 24th, 2009, 03:08 PM
Still quite sore today, I kind of have to hop around. I'm now keenly interested in how to avoid a repeat in the future (drinking something before and during work out), because once you've had one of these I think what you consume afterward is not going to help much in reducing soreness.

I had such a cramp on the start of the 100 back at Nats last summer. It was excruciating, and ruined my race. :( I had a massage afterward that helped. Then I dosed myself with Gatorade,coconut water and used a product called Leg Cramps. Gull doesnt like this product because it contains quinine, which apparently can have side effects. So I tend to only use it when racing. Maybe take a foam roller to the calf? I think you just need to stay extremely well hydrated, and not just with water.

qbrain
November 24th, 2009, 03:18 PM
Still quite sore today, I kind of have to hop around. I'm now keenly interested in how to avoid a repeat in the future (drinking something before and during work out), because once you've had one of these I think what you consume afterward is not going to help much in reducing soreness.

Endurox isn't magic. It decreases recovery time by providing fuel to load back into the muscle at the optimal time, right after workout. This helps for endurace training more than strength training.

Any electrolyte solution should help with cramps (pedialyte, gatorade, banana juice, etc).

No drink that I know of will help you with muscle damage, which is what is making you sore. There is probably something, but it is still a healing process, so I would imagine you would just decrease the length of time being sore.

Eventually you body will adapt to this work load and you won't be sore unless you increase the work load. Of course, this cycle is what makes us stronger/faster and why some people are constantly trying to train to soreness. Just short of soreness is much more pleasant and might be a faster path to greatness.

If you are a little sore each day, and can fully recover in 24 hours, you can workout to that level each day. If you are REALLY sore, it will take longer to recover, and you will not be able to workout at that level again until recovered.

EricOrca
November 25th, 2009, 04:47 AM
Ive tried everything mentioned above, including a piece of toast with peanut butter and down it with fruit juice, or an apple with a handful of "Costco fruit and nut medley" only to get stomach cramps... I don't use Gatorade or G2 anymore because it gave me heartburn, (really bad heartburn) even as a recovery drink (it also contain's the dreaded high-fructose corn syrup (HFCS))
I now use Cytomax Natural Citrus Flavor, one to 2 hours before workout. Why not just before the workout? I don't like to leave the pool during a set to use the restroom...(I abandoned Pre-Formance because of the high Cholesterol)
During the workout I sip water only (not gulps). I will say that for whatever reason, I do not get leg cramps any more.
I get it from Bodybuilding.com, but when I want to try something new, I walk into GNC, that way if it doesn't agree with me, I can take it back and get a refund or credit without losing the 2 way shipping cost. I have two scoops of Muscle-Milk or 1 scoop Muscle-Milk plus (low Cholesterol) mixed with 12oz of water as a recovery drink after workout upon reaching my car.