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JMiller
February 24th, 2009, 11:58 AM
Does anyone know the rule on underwater dolphin during the freestyle starts and turns? The 15m rule doesn't apply, does it?

Freestyle is freestlye, most people don't go that far because it is slower, except Phelps/Leveaux. Just wondering though, if I went 40 meters on the first 50 of a 400 free LCM, that would be allowed, right?

Is there documentation to verify this, in case of dispute?

ande
February 24th, 2009, 12:04 PM
if I went 40 meters on the first 50 of a 400 free LCM, that would be allowed, right?

only if you go 40 meters off all 8 lengths

I think the 15 meter rule applies


Does anyone know the rule on underwater dolphin during the freestyle starts and turns? The 15m rule doesn't apply, does it?

Freestyle is freestlye, most people don't go that far because it is slower, except Phelps/Leveaux. Just wondering though, if I went 40 meters on the first 50 of a 400 free LCM, that would be allowed, right?

Is there documentation to verify this, in case of dispute?

Karen Duggan
February 24th, 2009, 12:05 PM
It is my understanding that you would be DQd. I frequently swim back or breast in a freestyle event and get DQd b/c my head didn't break the surface by 15m.

I could be wrong, or maybe the officials are, but that was my understanding.

ourswimmer
February 24th, 2009, 12:27 PM
The 15m rule is basically the same for all strokes except breaststroke. You can stay under for 15m (16.4y) off the wall, and then you have to stay at the surface (which means that at all times, some part of your body has to be above the surface) until your next turn.

The documentation is the rule. The pertinent USMS rules are 101.3.2 (fly), 101.4.2 (back), and 101.5.2 (free). Those are based on USA Swimming rules, which are based in turn on FINA rules, but I don't have easy access to those rulebooks.

As Karen says, an official could rely on this rule to DQ proper breaststroke during a freestyle race, since proper breaststroke can involve being totally submerged even after 15m. The only difference between the backstroke and freestyle rules is that the backstroke rule says specifically that the swimmer can be completely submerged at the finish and the freestyle rule does not (implying that she can't). I swim backstroke in "freestyle" races pretty regularly and I have never been DQ'd, although I suppose if I dived back at the finish I could be.

pwolf66
February 24th, 2009, 12:27 PM
From the USA Swimming rule book, rule 101.5.2:

"Some part of the swimmer must break the surface of the water throughout the race, except it shall be permissible for the swimmer to be completely submerged during the turn and for a distance of not more than 15 meters (16.4 yards) after the start and each turn"

So, you can stay underwater continuously until the 15m mark or surface and submerge again, as long as the swimmer's head breaks the surface prior to the 15m mark and then some part of the swimmer breaks the surface of the water after that.

jim clemmons
February 24th, 2009, 12:33 PM
http://www.usms.org/rules/

Go to Part 1, Swimming Rules

15 meter rule applies to freestyle.

JMiller
February 24th, 2009, 12:44 PM
http://www.usms.org/rules/

Go to Part 1, Swimming Rules

15 meter rule applies to freestyle.

Okay, thanks Jim, although I thought Phelps went farther then 15m in that 200 free.
It must have been that he did the 15m so fast...

Either way, thanks for the clarification.


"101.5.2 Stroke—

In an event designated freestyle, the swimmer may swim any style,
except that in a medley relay or individual medley event, freestyle means
any style other than butterfly, breaststroke or backstroke. Some part of the
swimmer must break the surface of the water throughout the race, except it
shall be permissible for the swimmer to be completely submerged during
the turn and for a distance of not more than 15 meters (16.4 yards) after the
start and each turn. By that point the head must have broken the surface."


~Quote pasted from rule book~

pwolf66
February 24th, 2009, 01:55 PM
Okay, thanks Jim, although I thought Phelps went farther then 15m in that 200 free.
It must have been that he did the 15m so fast...


Nope, he just went 14.5m which to you and I looks muuuuuuuch longer than that :applaud:

pwolf66
February 24th, 2009, 01:58 PM
I swim backstroke in "freestyle" races pretty regularly and I have never been DQ'd, although I suppose if I dived back at the finish I could be.

Unless you submerged well before the finish, this is not cause of disqualification. Every stroke allows the swimmer to be fully submerged just before the turn or finish. It's that 'just' before that can be difficult to distinguish. What I brief to officials is that if you have changed your attention from the swimmer to the wall, then you can not call the swimmer as being submerged as you are not focusing on the swimmer any more.

TomP
February 24th, 2009, 02:43 PM
Check out Michael Klim at the 3:17 mark.........under-water footage.....dolphin kicking the final 15M to the wall.

YouTube - A. Popov, Pieter VDH, Gary Hall Jr., 100m Freestyle Finals

Thomas
PS: I just wanna Race in Tyr Poly Jammers'
But wearing a Nero/LZR and FSII Legskin until the rules say change.

ourswimmer
February 24th, 2009, 05:56 PM
Unless you submerged well before the finish, this is not cause of disqualification. Every stroke allows the swimmer to be fully submerged just before the turn or finish. It's that 'just' before that can be difficult to distinguish. What I brief to officials is that if you have changed your attention from the swimmer to the wall, then you can not call the swimmer as being submerged as you are not focusing on the swimmer any more.

Your advice to officials on the practicalities is very clever. I was going on the text of the rules in the USMS rule book. The only difference in wording between the freestyle and backstroke rules on this point is that the backstroke rule calls out "the finish" as a part of a backstroke race in which a swimmer may be totally submerged, whereas the freestyle rule does not. It would seem to me that the text wouldn't be different if the intent were the same, although I agree with you that a real-life official probably wouldn't be able to judge them differently if s/he were paying attention to hand meeting wall.

JMiller
February 25th, 2009, 12:00 AM
Check out Michael Klim at the 3:17 mark.........under-water footage.....dolphin kicking the final 15M to the wall.

Okay, another question, how do you post so that the screen of the movie shows up? I've tried a few times and it hasn't seemed to work here:
Fun, and Fast - Page 23 - U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums

Is it because I'm posting movies from floswimming and not utube?

bergsteiger
February 25th, 2009, 08:43 AM
That video footage is great. I am neither coordinated enough nor in shape enough to swim dolphin kick at the end of a 100m free :bow:

zmontgo
February 27th, 2009, 02:21 AM
if you look at Popov, he swims the race without a speed suit and no cap and still pulls a 2nd place.