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Kranky
March 11th, 2009, 12:23 PM
when ever we are doing pull sets my lane mates put me up front because when it comes to pulling (bouy and paddles) i'm the fastest... right after that set and we have to do regular swimming i go to the back of the line because i'm the slowest... what gives folks... how can i be so fast in one thing and so slow doing the other... BTW the same happens with kicking with fins...

Kranky...

smontanaro
March 11th, 2009, 01:48 PM
I suspect you're like me:

* I'm a weak kicker

* The pull buoy raises my legs a bit and makes me more streamlined.

I can pull faster than I can swim and I never use paddles, just a pull buoy. If you use paddles and suffer from the same kicking maladies I do I suspect your pull/swim difference is even greater.

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Kranky
March 11th, 2009, 02:08 PM
yeah <blush>... thats me... as the yardage piles up i tend to kick less and less... would you suggest a 2 beat or a 6 beat kick... my legs are VERY solid from me doing Karate when i was younger before i got into swimming...

pwolf66
March 11th, 2009, 02:09 PM
Check your head position also. Lifting your head will cause your hips to drop and add drag. Concentrate of pointing your nose at the bottom of the pool.

smontanaro
March 11th, 2009, 02:20 PM
What pwolf said. Also, ask your coach about that. You can probably do a very good job with head position and other little technique tweaks as long as you're thinking about them. When you stop thinking about things you'll probably have a tendency to revert back to bad habits. Your coach can check your technique at random times.

I'd try a six-beat kick. That will, I think, help keep your legs floating better as well.

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CreamPuff
March 11th, 2009, 03:13 PM
This was me as well a while back.

What got me to be a fast(er) swimmer (and this may sound crazy) -

For 1 season, I kept pulling to a minimum in practices. I can pull fast and long till the cows come home. No need to fix that.

Pulled w/ buoy only during pull sets (so go last when everyone else has paddles and buoy - or actually, go wherever it makes sense but try and keep up). Gave me a great feel for the water. Paddles prevented me from feeling the water.

Alternate above with - just swim during the pull sets sets.

Really work the kick sets.

I did this for 1 season (last summer), and now I can swim pretty fast.

If you are willing to be a bit slower for a while, I found this to really pay off for me. Limit pulling in your practices.

pwb
March 11th, 2009, 03:20 PM
For 1 season, I kept pulling to a minimum in practices ...

Alternate above with - just swim during the pull sets sets.
...
If you are willing to be a bit slower for a while, I found this to really pay off for me. Limit pulling in your practices.

Absolutely and ditto to CreamPuff's advice above.

But, also, what are your goals? If you're looking to compete in meets or OW or tris, then swim more and pull less in practice. You need to practice primarily with the equipment you're going to compete with.

I rarely pull, but I have the opposite problem where putting a buoy and paddles on me slows me down.

CreamPuff
March 11th, 2009, 03:23 PM
And one other cool side effect from training this way (swim mostly or pull just w/ a buoy) - I also became a faster puller! Who would have thought?

MAC swimmer
March 11th, 2009, 04:39 PM
This is my problem too.

The only solution is to practice your kick. I am still working on mine. I am my team's weakest kicker, and strongest puller.

CreamPuff
March 12th, 2009, 01:37 PM
This is my problem too.

The only solution is to practice your kick. I am still working on mine. I am my team's weakest kicker, and strongest puller.

This is an interesting comment. Made me think that there are

Kickers
Pullers
Swimmers

I've found that often, masters swimmers are often great pullers and weak on kick/ swim. However, with USS, I've seen great kickers/ swimmers; super pullers/ swimmers. The fabulous people are all 3.

I HAVE seen terrible kickers who are great swimmers (they kick well when swimming)/ pullers. Strange. . .

srcoyote
March 12th, 2009, 05:24 PM
When I was an age group swimmer, I had this same issue, and I actually had a very good 6-beat kick. Put me on a kickboard, and I led the lane as well.

What I've discovered since was that my pull during a pull set was very different than my pull just swimming. In the pull set, I felt the pull, kept my shoulders wide, etc. During the swimming I relied to heavily on my kick and would drop elbows, not finish, etc.

As an adult I've learned a very good 2-beater and therefore concentrate on my pull while I swim instead of just depending on the kick.

abc
March 12th, 2009, 06:07 PM
I've found that often, masters swimmers are often great pullers and weak on kick/ swim.

I agree with this 100%. Almost all of the masters swimmers I know only use equipment that allows them to train faster. For example, they'll use fins for evey kick set, buoys and paddles whenever possible. They believe that using this kind of equipment helps them become a better swimmer. However, in my opinion, overusing this kind of equipment only helps you get better at kicking with fins and pulling with padlles and a buoy--it doesn't help you become a better swimmer. Most of the master swimmers I know seem more concerned about being faster in practice at the expense of becoming a better swimmer. I would also like to point out that there's lots of equipment that reduces your speed--like tubes and bands--but I have never seen anyone at my workouts use any kind of device that would slow them down (with the exception of a drag suit).

CreamPuff
March 12th, 2009, 06:31 PM
I agree with this 100%. Almost all of the masters swimmers I know only use equipment that allows them to train faster. For example, they'll use fins for evey kick set, buoys and paddles whenever possible. They believe that using this kind of equipment helps them become a better swimmer. However, in my opinion, overusing this kind of equipment only helps you get better at kicking with fins and pulling with padlles and a buoy--it doesn't help you become a better swimmer. Most of the master swimmers I know seem more concerned about being faster in practice at the expense of becoming a better swimmer. I would also like to point out that there's lots of equipment that reduces your speed--like tubes and bands--but I have never seen anyone at my workouts use any kind of device that would slow them down (with the exception of a drag suit).

Yep. Exactly what I witnessed. Had to go to USS where it was more "boot camp-ish." Give me an inch and I take a mile. Not good for me in terms of improving.

Betsy
March 12th, 2009, 07:04 PM
Using a buoy and paddles has improved my freestyle.
First, many years ago my coach had us take off the wrist strap on the paddles. Without the wrist strap, the paddles come off if you do not keep your hand in the correct position.
Second, when I commented to someone about pulling faster that swimming, she suggested that I alternate pulling and swimming on a set of 100s or 200s, trying to duplicate the feel for the water that I got with paddles.
When I coach I emphasize to my swimmers that paddles are diagnostic, not to make you go faster for that set, but to learn to pull correctly. You have to work on the feel for the water and you can't do that if they are strapped on tight. Wear the paddles very loose, slow down, and think.

smontanaro
March 12th, 2009, 08:04 PM
Second, when I commented to someone about pulling faster that swimming, she suggested that I alternate pulling and swimming on a set of 100s or 200s, trying to duplicate the feel for the water that I got with paddles.


Thanks. That's an excellent suggestion.


When I coach I emphasize to my swimmers that paddles are diagnostic, not to make you go faster for that set, but to learn to pull correctly. You have to work on the feel for the water and you can't do that if they are strapped on tight. Wear the paddles very loose, slow down, and think.

I think a lot of people do the same for drills. It doesn't really matter how fast you can do a 50 yd catch-up. (Last time I checked it wasn't a sanctioned event.) What's important is emphasizing those elements of your stroke the drill is designed to isolate.

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