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Paul Smith
March 13th, 2009, 11:42 AM
I guess its not always about swimming "pretty" when you can throw down a 41.8 100 free...Nathan Adrian's in lane 5, check out the slow start, horrible/short break-outs where he hits the wave on the 2nd & 3rd turns (granted, when you're that far ahead you would have to stay under for at least 12yds to miss it)...and explain to me the change to staright-arm/windmill the last 5 strokes?

http://www.floswimming.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234361/89677

JimRude
March 13th, 2009, 11:48 AM
I guess its not always about swimming "pretty" when you can throw down a 41.8 100 free...Nathan Adrian's in lane 5, check out the slow start, horrible/short break-outs where he hits the wave on the 2nd & 3rd turns (granted, when you're that far ahead you would have to stay under for at least 12yds to miss it)...and explain to me the change to staright-arm/windmill the last 5 strokes?

http://www.floswimming.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234361/89677

Don't be dissin' the Bear(s)! And don't they have the same complaints about Nystrand? Although I cannot provide evidence, I would assume that Nathan is very efficient under water, and what goes on above the water is less relevant to generating propulsion.

Paul Smith
March 13th, 2009, 12:18 PM
Don't be dissin' the Bear(s)! And don't they have the same complaints about Nystrand? Although I cannot provide evidence, I would assume that Nathan is very efficient under water, and what goes on above the water is less relevant to generating propulsion.

Jim...don't forget...UCSB and Cal have some long-standing ties (including almost getting tossed in jail back at NCAA's in Cleveland when you guys won) and we love to wave dollar bills at the Stanford folks just as much as you!

But go back and look at that swim again...his last 5 strokes do look very much like Nystrand, but I've never seen anyone switch withn a race like this before?

knelson
March 13th, 2009, 12:20 PM
Hadn't noticed the switch to a windmill stroke at the end, but it sure is obvious now that you mention it! Maybe he's found that stroke works better when he really starts to tighten up at the end of his races?

Interesting thing about Adrian: he's about 6'6" despite being ethnically half Chinese! His mom is Chinese and grew up in Hong Kong. His brother is big, too. Maybe mom has some of that Yao Ming DNA :)

JimRude
March 13th, 2009, 01:37 PM
Jim...don't forget...UCSB and Cal have some long-standing ties

I could tell you some stories about our Christmas break training camps to SB, staying in an (almost) empty sorority house....

That Guy
March 13th, 2009, 04:49 PM
I've found that I can't sustain straight-arm free for very long. It seems faster initially for me, but it gets messy in a hurry, and then I slow down. It never occurred to me to use it as a weapon at the end of a race, like switching to a 6-beat kick. Maybe I'll try switching to straight-arm for the last 25 of the 400 IM... :banana:

hofffam
March 13th, 2009, 05:50 PM
Not nearly as ugly as Fred Bousqet's swims. I saw him race in Austin last week and thought his freestyle was about as ugly as they come. But of course he whipped the field.

Switching to straight arm is very weird. At that point in my much slower 100 I would be worried about oxygen and not able to attempt a change in stroke!

The Fortress
March 13th, 2009, 05:59 PM
Not nearly as ugly as Fred Bousqet's swims. I saw him race in Austin last week and thought his freestyle was about as ugly as they come. But of course he whipped the field.

Can't be ugly if the clock is beautiful.

Many masters are simply predisposed to prefer or admire high elbows because they've been told all their life to keep their elbows up.

thewookiee
March 13th, 2009, 06:15 PM
Not nearly as ugly as Fred Bousqet's swims. I saw him race in Austin last week and thought his freestyle was about as ugly as they come. But of course he whipped the field.

I would be worried about oxygen and not able to attempt a change in stroke!

What is ugly about his stroke? David Marsh is converting Jones to a more "open recovery" in attempts to get him faster(or at least not blown out of the water by Bousquet again)

jim clemmons
March 13th, 2009, 06:20 PM
For some reason I saw the title of this thread and immediately thought Paul Smith's gotta be involved in some kind of self-inspection commentary.

:anim_coffee:

thewookiee
March 13th, 2009, 06:24 PM
For some reason I saw the title of this thread and immediately thought Paul Smith's gotta be involved in some kind of self-inspection commentary.

:anim_coffee:

Then it would be titled "Short and Stumpy"

meldyck
March 13th, 2009, 06:30 PM
Can't be ugly if the clock is beautiful.


Now here's a statement with no bias attached! My own thought is that ALL sprinters look ugly in the water, kind of like a firehose with no one holding it. Or, maybe, a riot at the opening sale of the newest electricaltronical gadget.

Jazz Hands
March 13th, 2009, 06:33 PM
Can't be ugly if the clock is beautiful.

Yes. Aesthetically, I like Bousquet's stroke. It has a clipped, circular look which is quite graceful.

tdrop
March 13th, 2009, 06:36 PM
I guess its not always about swimming "pretty" when you can throw down a 41.8 100 free...Nathan Adrian's in lane 5, check out the slow start, horrible/short break-outs where he hits the wave on the 2nd & 3rd turns (granted, when you're that far ahead you would have to stay under for at least 12yds to miss it)...and explain to me the change to staright-arm/windmill the last 5 strokes?

http://www.floswimming.org/videos/coverage/view_video/234361/89677

I listened to Mike Bottom speak about the "threestyle freestyle". It talks about three different types of freestyle that he teaches all his swimmers. I believe he said Nathan Adrian is one of the swimmers that can switch freely and effectively during a race. He purposely changes over to a straight arm freestyle at the end of his race. I can't remember why...I guess its faster for him. you can purchase the talk from the ASCA site for 99 cents.

The Fortress
March 13th, 2009, 07:03 PM
Now here's a statement with no bias attached! My own thought is that ALL sprinters look ugly in the water, kind of like a firehose with no one holding it. Or, maybe, a riot at the opening sale of the newest electricaltronical gadget.

I still remember a teammate's comment after one of my free events: "Well, you go awfully fast with that ugly straight arm thing." But you gotta admit straight arm sprinters have really exploded on the scene lately. I think it gives me more propulsive force. I've going to have wookiee give me tips on the "open stroke" next ...

And I agree with Jazz. I don't think it's "ugly" at all; it's very old school/evil smith/anti-change to say that. And I don't go around calling lopers or other variations on free ugly ... Ugly is missing a turn or making a technical mistake or dying the last 10 yards as I am wont to do ...

Paul Smith
March 13th, 2009, 07:12 PM
What is ugly about his stroke? David Marsh is converting Jones to a more "open recovery" in attempts to get him faster(or at least not blown out of the water by Bousquet again)

John, I didn't say his "stroke" was ugly...I think he has a very fluid, powerful stroke with an insane kick. What I was refering to were the things I listed; slow start, breakouts on the last 2 turns and switching to the windmill arms the last 5 strokes (which is a bit ugly)...

Clemmons...I never did like you much. :)

coach's pet 1
March 13th, 2009, 07:39 PM
I was lucky enough to attend the Stanford/Cal men's dual meet this year. In general, all the Cal swimmers breathed every stroke until the last 5 meters of their 100 free. None did much SDK on the start or turns, but I don't believe they lost ground to their opponents who did. I feel they have tried their turns both ways and stuck with what works best for them.

John

jim clemmons
March 13th, 2009, 08:01 PM
Clemmons...I never did like you much. :)

Yeah, that's okay, I'm getting used to it. :chug:

thewookiee
March 13th, 2009, 11:17 PM
John, I didn't say his "stroke" was ugly...I think he has a very fluid, powerful stroke with an insane kick. What I was refering to were the things I listed; slow start, breakouts on the last 2 turns and switching to the windmill arms the last 5 strokes (which is a bit ugly)...

Clemmons...I never did like you much. :)

Paul...that wasn't directed at you. Didn't say you did. Hoffman said it was ugly. I was asking him what was ugly about it...not you

hofffam
March 14th, 2009, 11:10 AM
What is ugly about his stroke? David Marsh is converting Jones to a more "open recovery" in attempts to get him faster(or at least not blown out of the water by Bousquet again)

It is Janet Reno ugly. There is just no beauty to it.

Notice please (for Fort too) that I did not say WRONG.

Dara Torres is very fast, and her stroke is beautiful.

thewookiee
March 14th, 2009, 11:15 AM
It is Janet Reno ugly. There is just no beauty to it.

Notice please (for Fort too) that I did not say WRONG.

Dara Torres is very fast, and her stroke is beautiful.

Guess it must be personal preference then. While I agree that Janet Reno is ugly, I find his stroke to be be fluid and beautiful to watch. I find Torres to have a beautiful stroke too.

I think it must be seeing each person's stroke independent of anyone else's.

That Guy
March 14th, 2009, 03:09 PM
Today in practice, I tried switching to straight-arm free on the last 25's of a 200 free and a 200 IM. It didn't feel weird or anything; there's definite potential here. This was during warmup so the next step will be to try this in a main set.