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shadowxvi
March 19th, 2009, 11:27 PM
I see many people saying that one should swim at or close to race pace in training. My question is how much rest should be allowed for the interval such as doing 100's on the 1:25 and coming in on 1:15 = 10 sec rest. I don't know about everyone else but I have a hard time maintaining race pace without significant rest or for prolonged periods. Thanks in advance.

pwb
March 20th, 2009, 01:17 AM
Personally, I prefer the concept of "race intensity" rather than "race pace" as I find it very rare for me to be able to mimic the pace I want to achieve in a race throughout the workout season. What I can do is mimic the intensity of a race and let the times fall out where they will given where I am in my training. As far as the rest you get, I think that also depends upon where you are in your training and what events you're training for. For example, if I'm training for a distance free event, I'd opt for less rest on repeats as I need to train my body to hit the same intensity over and over again.

If I was training for sprints (which, um, I've never specifically trained for because I can't sprint), I'd opt for more rest ... because that's what I always see sprinters doing ... lounging around on the pool deck with lots of rest between short bursts of speed so mind-bogglingly quick that I have a very hard time wrapping my distance-mind around. :)

Ahelee Sue Osborn
March 20th, 2009, 02:02 AM
I recently started training with a new team.
The "fast guys" I probably should train with are simply grinders.
They swim as much yardage with as little rest as possible.
I just don't subscribe to that kind of training.

Luckily I have been able to start my own little tribe in lane 3. They appreciate a little more rest and a lot higher quality.
And we are getting faster!

If you can't figure out how to do this on your own, ask your coach for help.

Allen Stark
March 20th, 2009, 02:25 AM
I do mostly race pace in season,swimming 1/2 distance at the pace of the second half of the race(i.e. 50s at the speed of the 2nd 50 of my 100 goal time.)The interval is what ever it takes to keep that speed(generally 50s on the 2 min.)

Jazz Hands
March 20th, 2009, 02:29 AM
Um, as much time as you need? It's not complicated. I also agree with race intensity instead of race pace. You can do it without a clock.

qbrain
March 20th, 2009, 09:01 AM
I think race pace is pretty specific. First you need a race that actually has a pace component, 200 or longer. There is no pace in the sprints, they are sprints.

So now you pick your target race, for me a 200. What is my pace? My goal for the 200 is 1:49.9, and I want to split 25.high, 27.high, 27.high, 27.high, so my race pace is 27.high. Now if I was in condition to actually go 1:49.9, I should be able to do 10x50 on 2:00 and break 28 every time.

If you are a sprinter and never do anything over 100, anything that is marked race pace can just be treated AFAP (as fast as possible).

If you are given a set of 10x100 on short rest, race pace, I don't know what race that would be the pace for. Maybe the 10k :)

knelson
March 20th, 2009, 09:37 AM
I think if the goal is pacing for a longer race then a work to rest ratio of 2:1 is about right. So let's say you're trying to pace a 500 free and your goal is 6:00. A set of 10x50 on :55 where you hold :36 would probably be good.

Typhoons Coach
March 20th, 2009, 09:59 AM
Shadow, in my opinion and what I have seen success in is, the amount of rest is decided on what you are focusing on for that set. In other words, if you are concentrating on an aerobic/anaerobic mix (Max VO2)set at "race pace" you would be at :30 - :60 rest. For the anaerobic 1 sets (lactate tolerance) you are in a 2:1 ratio for rest which means if you are on :30 for the swim you are on :15 for the rest. The anaerobic 2 sets (lactate peak) you are on a 1:2 rest which means that if you are on a :30 for the swim you are at 1:00 for the rest. For straight out short sprints (25's, 12.5's, etc) - alactate sets - you are on a 1:3 or 1:4 ratio.

Hope this helps! All the best!

qbrain
March 20th, 2009, 10:06 AM
I think if the goal is pacing for a longer race then a work to rest ratio of 2:1 is about right. So let's say you're trying to pace a 500 free and your goal is 6:00. A set of 10x50 on :55 where you hold :36 would probably be good.

Along this line of thought, I think the longer the race, the more endurance plays a part and the less rest you want on your repeats. So 10x50s at your mile pace would have less rest than 10x50s at your 200 pace.

2:1 wouldn't be enough for me to maintain my 200 race pace, it might be enough for my 500 pace and would be fine for my mile pace.

Maybe I am a wuss (the maybe is for my ego), but I would like 4:1 at 200 pace, 3:1 at 500 pace and 2:1 at mile pace.

knelson
March 20th, 2009, 10:22 AM
The ratio I mentioned is work to rest, so I'm guessing you really meant 1:4 for 200s. If your 200 pace is :30 seconds 1:4 would mean 50s on the 2:30. 2:00 would be 1:3. Even 1:3 seems like way to much rest to call anything a "pace set." Pacing to me implies something that can be realistically viewed as a broken swim. If you swim 4x50 on 2:00 that seems more like 4 distinct swims.

pwolf66
March 20th, 2009, 12:19 PM
The ratio I mentioned is work to rest, so I'm guessing you really meant 1:4 for 200s. If your 200 pace is :30 seconds 1:4 would mean 200s on the 2:30. 2:00 would be 1:3. Even 1:3 seems like way to much rest to call anything a "pace set." Pacing to me implies something that can be realistically viewed as a broken swim. If you swim 4x50 on 2:00 that seems more like 4 distinct swims.

Assuming that my goal was to swim a 200 in 2:00, then a 1:4 work to rest ratio means 200's on an 10:00 interval, assuming of course that I would swim the 200 in 2:00.

When speaking of work to rest, remember it's a ratio and should be given in terms of the overall time of work to the time of rest. An example would be a 10x50 free on 2:00 set. For me this presents about a 1:3 work:rest ratio as I would be swimming each 50 in about 30 and resting for about 1:30. Your example above isn't a work:rest ratio that includes ALL the work (i.e the whole 200) but instead describes the ratio based upon a set distances (i.e per 50) pace with regards to the rest between each entire swim.


And you're right about pacing swims, 4x50 on 2:00 would pretty much not be considered a pacing set for anything less than a 200 and even for a 200 would not be that effective. But for 98%+ effort (sprint or near sprint) swims, it's a good starting point.

knelson
March 20th, 2009, 01:02 PM
When speaking of work to rest, remember it's a ratio and should be given in terms of the overall time of work to the time of rest. An example would be a 10x50 free on 2:00 set. For me this presents about a 1:3 work:rest ratio as I would be swimming each 50 in about 30 and resting for about 1:30. Your example above isn't a work:rest ratio that includes ALL the work (i.e the whole 200) but instead describes the ratio based upon a set distances (i.e per 50) pace with regards to the rest between each entire swim.

I don't think I'm following you. For your example of 10x50 on 2:00 you'd be swimming a total of 10x30 seconds or 300 seconds, and resting 9x90 = 810 seconds. That's a work:rest ratio of 300/810 which reduces down to 1:2.7. Am I missing something?

Sorry: I see what you mean. I made a typo and put "200s on the 2:30" when I meant to say "50s on the 2:30." Just a small difference :) I'll go back and edit that post.

qbrain
March 20th, 2009, 01:03 PM
The ratio I mentioned is work to rest, so I'm guessing you really meant 1:4 for 200s. If your 200 pace is :30 seconds 1:4 would mean 200s on the 2:30. 2:00 would be 1:3. Even 1:3 seems like way to much rest to call anything a "pace set." Pacing to me implies something that can be realistically viewed as a broken swim. If you swim 4x50 on 2:00 that seems more like 4 distinct swims.

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant interval to actual time. So for my 200, I would be doing a 2:00 interval trying to go sub 28.

And when I talk about pace sets, I am not talking about a broken anything. I have done 8x, 10x and 12x 50s at 200 race pace. The goal is to know what your race pace feels like. It is not an endurance set, it is a sprint set, and you are sitting around with a ton of rest.

Sorry for using your original comment as an example, because it seems like we are not only talking about different types of sets, but those sets also have completely different goals.

pwolf66
March 20th, 2009, 01:33 PM
I don't think I'm following you. For your example of 10x50 on 2:00 you'd be swimming a total of 10x30 seconds or 300 seconds, and resting 9x90 = 810 seconds. That's a work:rest ratio of 300/810 which reduces down to 1:2.7. Am I missing something?


No but you sure sound like an engineer :applaud:

OK, using my example, assume that the NEXT set starts at the end of the rest period for the last rep :D

Jeez

shadowxvi
March 20th, 2009, 01:34 PM
Thanks for all the feedback.

The Fortress
March 20th, 2009, 01:47 PM
Thanks for all the feedback.

Aw, just read the thread and you didn't tell us whether you were a sprinter or distance swimmer ...

If you're a sprinter, you need rest. 10 seconds rest has no relationship to race pace or AFAP whatsoever.

Glider
March 20th, 2009, 04:04 PM
Excellent thread...Coach T is spot on. I'll try to add some meat to it, but for a more detailed discussion, see the work done by Genadijus Sokolovas, Ph.D., former Director of Physiology, USA Swimming.

- Energy Zones in Swimming (http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=417&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en&mid=648&ItemId=1317)
- Chart of Energy Zones (http://www.usaswimming.org/USASWeb/ViewMiscArticle.aspx?TabId=417&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en&mid=648&ItemId=656)

This work jives with Ernest Maglischo's work in Swimming Fastest (http://books.google.com/books?id=cSSW4RhZOiwC&dq=Swimming+Fastest&printsec=frontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=XevDSeO-FKDLmQe-zsH0Cw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=4&ct=result).

Race pace training is very specific to the stroke and distance of the race you are training for. Focus in on lactate type speed sets (SP1 and SP2) and power sprints (SP3):

1. SP1 = Lactate tolerance, works anaerobic endurance, work to rest from 2:1 to 1:1. (more applicable for 100+ distance races)

- Reps are done at near-race speed at a sub-race distance (e.g., for a 200 race do a set 50s at your 2nd, 3rd, 4th 50 race pace.)

- These can also be done as sets of 25s or 100s for a 200 race (or any race up to the 1650.)

- If your target 200 race time is 1:58 and your you want to split it 28, 30, 30, 30, you might go a set of 8x50 on 1:00 trying to hold 30 (1:1 work to rest.)

- These can also be broken swims (e.g., sets of 4x50 with 10 sec rest between each 50 and several minutes recovery between each broken swim.) The goal for broken swims is to add up the swim portions and to have the total swim time be your target 200 time.

- This speed training teaches your body to buffer lactic acid and endure it mentally and physically. These are the sets that train your body how to take a longer race out with "easy speed."

2. SP2 = Lactate production, works anaerobic power, work to rest ratio from 1:2 to 1:4 (more for 50 and 100 sprint races.)

- Again reps are done at near-race speed at a sub-race distance (e.g. for a 100 race do a set 50s at your 2nd 50 race pace) with much more rest between reps.

- These sets can be also be done as 25s for a 50 or 100 race and up to 100s for 200 races.

- If your target 100 is :58 and your you want to split it 28, 30, you might go a set of 8x50 on 2:00 trying to hold 30 (1:3 work:rest.)

- These sets are designed to work your anaerobic stroking power.

3. SP3 = alactic (set/reps are not long enough to produce lactic acid.) Primarily for pure sprinters.

- These are sets of 4-10 reps of 10 to 12.5 yards or 5 to 8 stroke cycles on intervals of 45s to 2 min.

- They are ultra-short sprints to stress force and speed of muscle contraction to increase stroke power.

- They are designed to build muscular strength, speed of muscle stimulation and contraction.

Hope this helps.


Shadow, in my opinion and what I have seen success in is, the amount of rest is decided on what you are focusing on for that set. In other words, if you are concentrating on an aerobic/anaerobic mix (Max VO2)set at "race pace" you would be at :30 - :60 rest. For the anaerobic 1 sets (lactate tolerance) you are in a 2:1 ratio for rest which means if you are on :30 for the swim you are on :15 for the rest. The anaerobic 2 sets (lactate peak) you are on a 1:2 rest which means that if you are on a :30 for the swim you are at 1:00 for the rest. For straight out short sprints (25's, 12.5's, etc) - alactate sets - you are on a 1:3 or 1:4 ratio.

Hope this helps! All the best!

geochuck
March 20th, 2009, 07:09 PM
Most important do you really know what your race pace is??? If you cannot swim a 1:15 with a 10 second rest you are not swimming your race pace, you are swimming faster then your race pace.

shadowxvi
March 21st, 2009, 09:08 AM
Oh I guess I would say I'm somewhat a sprinter. Mainly I am training for 100 and hopefully the 200 fly. Also 200 IM and maybe 400 IM.