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CreamPuff
March 24th, 2009, 09:55 AM
Opinions wanted on this one -

I have a meet this weekend and on day 2 the 500 FR is seeded by time and gender (men are separated from women.) I am actually used to swimming mixed seeding in distance events.

Provided the meet director would accommodate me (and s/he may not), would you ask to be seeded with the men to get the full racing experience?

As it stands, I'm seeded 1st of the women (2nd place is 48 seconds behind) and I would be seeded 5th with the men.

The only other thing to consider is that if I swim with the women, I will have 1 hour rest until my next event. If I swim with the men, I will have about 30 minutes until my next event. And I have 3 events left to swim after the 500 FR.

And, to confirm, am I correct in assuming that if I swam with the men, the time would not count for USMS purposes due to my changing the event/ program order? But am I correct in assuming that my other swims would count assuming all the rules are followed?

This meet is for pure racing fun. Times are irrelevant for me. Oh, and I'm used to swimming by myself which I find sort of boring; however, I have gone PB's swimming solo or having competition. And, I will get creamed by some of the top men (will be a fast heat), but that does not bother me greatly. It's more of a learning experience.

Thanks!

aquageek
March 24th, 2009, 10:12 AM
If there are no women in your heat who will push you I'd request the move, unless you want to make a game out of seeing how many folks you can lap. You also need to consider the feelings of the women in your heat given you will butcher them, I know this from first hand experience with you. Think of the small people, Puffy.

ViveBene
March 24th, 2009, 10:15 AM
Hi, Cougar in Training!

I have no place in answering, as I have never raced a pool event, but putting oneself out there on the edge has big rewards. I'd go for the more challenging option, especially if the meet is for pure racing fun.

Have fun, whichever you choose!
:)

jim thornton
March 24th, 2009, 10:19 AM
As a man, of sorts, my instinct is to tell you to stick with your own gender and humiliate them, not me. However, when you mentioned that the second place time was 48 seconds slower, it did seem kind of unfair that magnificence of your sort cannot be stoked by actual competition with someone(s) as fast and maybe a wee bit faster than you.

I say that if the Kentucky Derby lets fillies run with the stallions, and the occasional gelding, they there should be room for us all in the 500 seeding.

The only possible flies in the ointment I can espy are:

1) if you bump some guy down one heat who would otherwise be racing someone in his same age group that he was hoping to beat for the points. However, even in such an unlikely scenario, chances are the guy you bumped down would be in an end lane, and the guy he was racing would be in the opposite end lane, so they probably wouldn't see each other well anyhow

2) assume that the woman who is now seeded 48 seconds behind you inthe women's 500 is not much of a distance swimmer but is an excellent sprinter. assume, furthermore, that you are racing her in the next event, a sprint, for which you will have gotten an hour's rest and she only 30 minutes. If she is of a suitably ill-termpered nature, i can see her crying, "Foul!"

Such quibbles aside, I think the swimming world simply needs to do what I have long ago decided to do when it comes to CreamPuff. Acknowledge her magnificence, bow down, and worship.

knelson
March 24th, 2009, 10:20 AM
This meet is for pure racing fun.

Then there you have it. You won't have a race against the women. Swim with the men if they'll let you.

The Fortress
March 24th, 2009, 10:25 AM
Swim with the dudes, She Puff.

It's one thing to swim a 100 by yourself, but the 500 seems to require some pacing and competition. (At least in theory, to me.) Given your level of conditioning, you may still have enough time to recover.

As you say, it may not count technically under the rules ... though such technical enforcement seems silly when mixed gender meets are held all the time. But you already have a fast 500 in the bank this year. Have fun! Is the 500 your fav freestyle event now?

CreamPuff
March 24th, 2009, 10:29 AM
Jim, you bring up some excellent scenarios that I would NOT have thought of. Glad I asked.

On #2 - I'm putting myself at a disadvantage rest-wise if I swim with the men. If I swim with the men, my rest will be cut in half and I will have only 30 minutes to my next event. If I swim with the women, I will have just over 1 hour of rest. So it's actually to my competitors' advantage if I were to swim with the men.

#1 point - I checked and I would not be splitting up any men in the same age group.

I wonder if there are other scenarios I have not thought of. . .




As a man, of sorts, my instinct is to tell you to stick with your own gender and humiliate them, not me. However, when you mentioned that the second place time was 48 seconds slower, it did seem kind of unfair that magnificence of your sort cannot be stoked by actual competition with someone(s) as fast and maybe a wee bit faster than you.

I say that if the Kentucky Derby lets fillies run with the stallions, and the occasional gelding, they there should be room for us all in the 500 seeding.

The only possible flies in the ointment I can espy are:

1) if you bump some guy down one heat who would otherwise be racing someone in his same age group that he was hoping to beat for the points. However, even in such an unlikely scenario, chances are the guy you bumped down would be in an end lane, and the guy he was racing would be in the opposite end lane, so they probably wouldn't see each other well anyhow

2) assume that the woman who is now seeded 48 seconds behind you inthe women's 500 is not much of a distance swimmer but is an excellent sprinter. assume, furthermore, that you are racing her in the next event, a sprint, for which you will have gotten an hour's rest and she only 30 minutes. If she is of a suitably ill-termpered nature, i can see her crying, "Foul!"

Such quibbles aside, I think the swimming world simply needs to do what I have long ago decided to do when it comes to CreamPuff. Acknowledge her magnificence, bow down, and worship.

CreamPuff
March 24th, 2009, 10:34 AM
Thanks Geek, Vive, and Kirk for the advice. :)

Les, I do not like the 500 (particularly after lopping off 10 seconds in my 1000 and 3 in my 200.) The 500 has been stagnant. Sort of curious to see how I would do under a *pressure-cooker* situation. @ the USS Auburn meet (where I was sick) I sort of cracked under the pressure of a very fast heat. I'd sort of like a re-do, even with a chance of failure.

tjrpatt
March 24th, 2009, 10:37 AM
If you can't swim the men, push yourself to lap people more than once. I love doing this in the longer free events. If the person is seeded 48 seconds behind you, push yourself to lap her twice.

hnatkin
March 24th, 2009, 10:47 AM
Give yourself (and the guys) a good race AND make it more fun for the spectators to watch as well. I know I would enjoy watching the race if I were there. And I definitely prefer having some competition to push me in a race rather than swimming in a heat that is significantly slower.

Also, the entry sheet does state that the meet officials reserve the right to mix seed the 1000, 500, and 400IM so it seems like it would be within stated rules if they mixed up the 500. The meet is pretty low-key - I can't imagine they'll give you a hard time.

Donna
March 24th, 2009, 11:30 AM
I have gotten some really good races with the guys. Who cares about gender, we are all swimming for best times for that particular day.

jim clemmons
March 24th, 2009, 11:47 AM
Swim with the men - it'll help them as well. Well, maybe not JT, but it'll help the others.

Chris Stevenson
March 24th, 2009, 11:50 AM
Since you just want a racing experience and your 500 has been stagnant, I would go ahead and request the change. I do not know if the race will count; if you care then you should ask beforehand.

30 minutes rest should be fine with your background. It would be totally worth it if the competition pushed you into a big improvement, don't you think?

But here's another thought: you need to learn to swim this race -- any race, really -- on your own. There may well be meets, perhaps even tapered meets, when you don't have someone in your heat to push you. So you should learn what various paces feel like, and pay attention to the feedback your body is giving you.

In other words, if you somehow aren't allowed to swim with the guys, or you decide that your other races are pretty important and you want more rest, look on the 500 as an opportunity to develop your pacing skills. There is no reason you can't have a good swim with just the clock as your "competitor."

qbrain
March 24th, 2009, 11:53 AM
You will be swimming your own race either way, and there are benefits to swimming with the woman with more rest, guaranteed that the times will count and no trouble dealing with the meet director.

Are the men really close enough to your times that you will actually get a good race out of it so it is worth the trouble? If the guys that are slower than you are much slower and the fast guys are much faster, what is the benefit of swimming in the wave pool?

Now, if out of the 7 guys that will be in your heat, 5 of them are within 10 seconds of your time, then I see a good reason to go through the trouble.

knelson
March 24th, 2009, 12:44 PM
If the guys that are slower than you are much slower and the fast guys are much faster

Dude, it's CreamPuff, no one is much faster. :)

jim thornton
March 24th, 2009, 01:10 PM
Swim with the men - it'll help them as well. Well, maybe not JT, but it'll help the others.

Jim, real men prefer to swim behind CreamPuff. The view is better.

swimmj
March 24th, 2009, 01:14 PM
I would swim with the men and see if you can better figure out how to swim this race. With luck, someone will be close to your speed and you will have a great race.

aquageek
March 24th, 2009, 01:26 PM
Jim, real men prefer to swim behind CreamPuff. The view is better.

That is entirely unnecessary.

pwolf66
March 24th, 2009, 01:39 PM
Jim, real men prefer to swim behind CreamPuff. The view is better.

I beg to differ. All I would get to see is feet and that would be for only the first 100 or so, then brief flashes as she passes going the other way. Over and over again.

qbrain
March 24th, 2009, 01:42 PM
Dude, it's CreamPuff, no one is much faster. :)

Good point.

CreamPuff, since I will not be there to be embarrassed by being lapped by you, I change my vote to swimming with the boys.

meldyck
March 24th, 2009, 02:15 PM
Puffie, please consider the OTHER side of this coin: I would likely ask for a divorce if I thought I could swim in the same heat as you!

letsrace
March 24th, 2009, 02:29 PM
Of course you should swim with the men. No mercy! Divorces, smorces.

The 30-minute-rest argument is the only thing that would cause me hesitation, but it really is long enough if you get right to warming down (assuming you CAN warm down at your meet). Even without the warm down, I would argue for swimming with the men since you sound like you want another good crack at the 500.

Good luck and make the boys cry!

hrietz
March 24th, 2009, 03:51 PM
It seems like every year that I have done this meet and the 500 it was seeded as mixed. I'm not sure why they would change that this time around!

Animal
March 24th, 2009, 04:12 PM
Swim with the guys, you will push them and they will push you!

CreamPuff
March 24th, 2009, 04:17 PM
Tom, that's exactly what my coach had me do in the 1000 at a USS meet I swam at. I did happen to use that strategy last week and it worked out well for me.

Donna, I look forward to seeing you there!

Chris, thanks. I did think about needing to learn to pace off of myself and not the boys or the competition. The first time that I swam the 1500 SCM FR I had to pace myself as there was no one around. I did end up holding very constant splits and the time was ranked #1 in the world. . . so I feel okay pacing off of myself. It's just that it's not as exciting or fun as racing someone. However, the 1500 is not the 500. I can recount a similar story for the 1000 I swam recently. Just paced off of myself - did end up dropping 10 seconds and even splitted my 500s 5:17 and 5:17. But I'm reading that I need to be able to handle all situations. Fair enough. :) Also, I'm going to assume the time will NOT count if I swim w/ the boys due to that change in program rule.

Jim C, who is JT?

Brain, you list really great points and I agree with you on the rest/ hassle thing. The men seeds read:
4:51
5:05
5:10
5:10
5:12.17
5:17
5:26
So, it would be relevant to be right in there. As for turbulence, after doing all those OW swims and swimming with the SR I boys and myself all packed in a distance lane @ practice, I can't say the last time I remember turbulence of any kind at a meet - either mixed seeding or otherwise.

And the #1 and 2 seeds are out of my league. Thanks for the vote of confidence Kirk!

Mel and letsrace - LOL! Trust me, the boys make me cry. It's good for me.

Heather, I know! Not sure what's up with that!?

Paul and Jim - you boys are silly. There is no good view when we're all bundled up in our very unflattering full body suits.:D

SwimmJ - agreed! I'm still figuring out this race. Who would have thought that I would figure out the 200 FR prior to the 500?!

Heidi, thanks for pointing that out about the meet entry information. It DOES indeed say they reserve that right to mix. Wonder why they opted to separate the genders for the 500 FR and 400 IM. Strange.

Jazz - LOL! I guess I should skip the meet and hit the weight room, eh?

Thanks all!

I have 4 big events Sat. I may be too tired to do anything come Sun! Something else to consider. But, the line up could make for a good practice meet.

meldyck
March 24th, 2009, 05:01 PM
Of course you should swim with the men. No mercy! Divorces, smorces.

Good luck and make the boys cry!

You may have misunderstood my intent. I meant that I would file for a divorce if I thought it would result in the opportunity to swim next to Kristina. It's not that I would want a divorce for having been forced to compete with her. I'm more aligned with the other leering old timers who posted in this thread!

jim clemmons
March 24th, 2009, 07:00 PM
Jim C, who is JT?



Jim Thornton (?)

You're going to end up between the 5:05 and 5:10 guys (I predict). Wish I was going to be there - I'd end up right with you (thinking hopefully!).

rtodd
March 24th, 2009, 07:21 PM
I would opt to swim with the men. But if you do choose to swim with the Women, it gives you a chance to watch a fast 500. Many times I am happy I am not in the final heat. I enjoy jumping out and watching fast swimming in person when I can, not just video.

orca1946
March 25th, 2009, 01:09 AM
Go for it, it sounds as if you like the competition, so go for the faster race. Good luck!:applaud:

CreamPuff
March 25th, 2009, 07:56 AM
Thanks all for very positive responses for both scenarios. :)

The meet director emailed me last night to say that by the way, the 1000/ 500 FR and 400 IM will all be seeded as MIXED even though the psych sheets have us separated out in the 500 FR and 400 IM.

SwimStud
March 25th, 2009, 09:01 AM
Swim with the guys. Race 500, have some small serving of a recovery drink, hydrate, warm down, hydrate, pee, rest, pee, race again...you can fit it all into 30 minutes.

Sadly I won't be on hand to rub shoulders pre race...it's been PROVEN to help get PB times.
:blush:

orca1946
March 25th, 2009, 06:42 PM
Let us know how you do!:blah:

nkfrench
March 25th, 2009, 07:11 PM
You may only be able to swim with the men if the meet referee (not the meet director) allows it since it would be a deviation with the sanctioned meet information. I am thinking that since it is a men's event you can't be seeded strictly by your entry time and would only be able to swim in an otherwise empty lane. The referee could assign you to the fastest heat where an empty lane was available. That would probably be the slowest heat and possibly the next-slowest heat.

If there was a no-show in a faster heat you could possibly swim earlier if you were waiting by the starter. Kind of like "stand by".

In Masters meets I've worked in before, there were some gamesmanship that seemed harmless but was abused. Motivations were to either be able to swim in the first possible heat (to be able to finish the meet earlier) or to swim in the last possible heat (to gauge the minimal effort needed to produce a win).

If the meet is scored/awarded, the guys should be able to swim against their peers that they are competing against.

Later - whoops, read your post about the Mixed seeding later. Problem solved.

WPSWIMS
March 25th, 2009, 09:59 PM
Kristina,
Good luck at the Dynamo Meet. I always remember the distance events being seeded mixed...to speed up the meet. At least you have time to rest, get something to eat, and get warm for your next heat. I never could stay warm enough! At least you are at sea level. Our state meet which is bigger than Dynamo is next week at Denver U. We just got tons of snow in the mountains, so I will be skiing next week and trying to get a few swims at 9000 ft. It is frustrating because they keep the Silverthorne and Breckenridge pool so hot and there are no back stroke flags on one side!

CreamPuff
March 26th, 2009, 08:54 AM
Nancy, I still appreciate the info in the event that future meets are not mixed. Thank you!

Stud, I'm sorry I won't be able to experience the shoulder rub!

Oz, I will report back; however, plze keep in mind that I'll be doing a marathon 8 events in 2 days (I think), so it's more a kick off to my getting in shape for LCM as opposed to being able to knock out fast times. But who knows right? Need to keep a positive attitude. :)

Thanks Winnie! I still wish I lived in Colorado even with all the snow and altitude! Sounds like you are having a blast up there. Swims @ 9000 feet, sounds AWESOME (once in a while!)

Thanks for the vote of confidence Jim. I don't know. . . for some reason I seem to really like the 5:11 range but I'm going to just try and have fun, race and not worry about the time - particularly with 4 events being swum the previous day. It is true that on occasion the more I swim, the better I do towards the end. . .

Rykno
March 26th, 2009, 10:32 AM
I say swim against the women for two reasons

the first, how often do you get to swim the 500fr with out looking where the other swimmers are. this will giveyou a chance to swim the race and know if you can swim your race, or if you are effected by those around you.

the other thing...i'd say make a game of it. since you know #2 is more than a 50 behind you, see if you can catch her by the 300 mark, see if you can lap someone twice. if you get to about 75-85yds ahead of #2 before the 400 mark you might feel the extra energy to try to lap her a second time.

I just swam the 800, seeded after time, so in lane 4 was a 26yr old with a made up time. he entered with 10:06, I had 10:26 (from the only time I swam i 1 yr ago). He hit the wall at 9:38 and I got under 10 at 9:54. for me it turned into swimming faster so he didn't pass me, but at or around 650 I started to pass people and it was enough to get me to swim harder.

jim clemmons
March 26th, 2009, 12:26 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence Jim. I don't know. . . for some reason I seem to really like the 5:11 range but I'm going to just try and have fun, race and not worry about the time - particularly with 4 events being swum the previous day. It is true that on occasion the more I swim, the better I do towards the end. . .

Our Zone championships feature the 1000 free, last event, last day. I've had a couple of my best 1000 swims after 5 relays and 6 prior individual events during that three day format. :cool:

scyfreestyler
March 26th, 2009, 01:34 PM
Our Zone championships feature the 1000 free, last event, last day. I've had a couple of my best 1000 swims after 5 relays and 6 prior individual events during that three day format. :cool:
I'll see you there...not in the 1000 though.

Donna
March 29th, 2009, 08:43 PM
Well we swam this with the men. I wish I were in a lane on the other side of the pool where Jay and Kristen had a great race but no I got stuck in lane 1 on the other side of a ten lane pool with no head to head competition. Too hard to see lanes 9 and 10. Oh well maybe next time, that's my story and I'm sticking too it.

orca1946
March 30th, 2009, 02:56 PM
What was the time?

Glider
March 30th, 2009, 03:17 PM
Donna and Puff both had good 500s (and 1000s, too.) You can see the results here (http://results.teamunify.com/gsdsc/).


What was the time?

CreamPuff
March 30th, 2009, 07:07 PM
So the 1000 was passable with a 10:32. Negative splitted with a 5:17 and 5:15 the 2nd 500. Swam my usual with zero kick of any kind. Had a lovely race with the boys and came in 2nd overall (I think I was around 3rd for most of the race). Lost 1st by 0.5 seconds. Was told I looked very smooth.

500 was the 2nd day with with el boys. Contrary to Glider's nice comment, the 500 was dreadful. Since seeing my 200 FR at 1:57 with zero kick two weeks ago, I've since been working on swimming with a 6 beat kick @ practices; however, it's only been 2 weeks. Coach and I agreed to not try kicking on the 1000 (too difficult at this point), but we agreed that I'd SDK and kick off every turn for the 500. Although I did make that goal, I was too tired to do the actual swim part and I added 3 seconds to my time of 5:11 - LOL! So, I'm going to stick with my kick and see if it can improve in a season or two or three or four. . . :D I think I got 5th overall on the 500 although it felt like last place after the 1000.

The 1000 and the 500 were the most fun along with the 50 FR in which I swam fly.

jim thornton
March 30th, 2009, 10:32 PM
1 Ulveling, Kristina 36 Swim Atlanta-GA 5:12.00 5:14.48

1 Ulveling, Kristina 36 Swim Atlanta-GA 10:34.00 10:32.73

If you doubled you 500, you would have swim 10:28.86.

Just amazing swims.

It seems to me that the SDKs on the 500 probably hurt you more than helped you.

Possibly, with practice, this will switch around, but I gotta say that SDKs really use
up a lot of oxygen and energy and keep you under water a lot longer than you would otherwise stay.

For a distance swim, I don't know if the extra speed is worth it.

Anyhow, extremely impressive swims, despite the self-described "passable" rating.

My question for you is simple: how much does it hurt? When you are swimming the 1000, are you in pain? Do you
find yourself saying, "When will this end?"

Or does it feel relatively good and smooth throughout?

I tend to suffer during distance events, and I don't know if this is the right approach...

jim clemmons
March 30th, 2009, 11:31 PM
I tend to suffer during distance events, and I don't know if this is the right approach...

James,

Suffering is good - it builds character! :chug:

Chicken of the Sea
March 30th, 2009, 11:55 PM
depends on which particular men or women you're talking about, I guess.

knelson
March 31st, 2009, 12:52 AM
So the 1000 was passable with a 10:32.

I'd say that's more than passable! I'm swimming the 1000 next Friday. I entered myself at 10:30 and I'll be very happy to swim that fast.

CreamPuff
March 31st, 2009, 10:13 AM
Kirk, thank you! You are capable of going around 10:00 to 10:10ish!! Forget 10:30! Good luck to you. How much do you kick on that 1000?

Jim, the 1000 and 1650 are of minimal discomfort for me. I've been told I have too much left at the end at these races. In retrospect, I did not work that 1000 enough. But there's always next time!!! I am CreamPuff, remember? If I were truly tough I'd be called HammerTime. But be consoled in that the 200 and 500 do burn - and now I cry if I actually add in kick. Great points on the walls and SDK Jim - I agree with you and I think it will take some time to find out what works for me. I only took 1 good SDK and then went into flutter kick past the flags for each turn. Rather painful 20x particularly when you usually do it 0 times in a race.

In speaking with one of the top 14&Us in the nation this weekend (she goes 10:00 in the 1000), she was saying that it really hurts and is "pretty much an all out sprint." I'm definitely chewing on that thought. . . I may have to try A LOT harder next time. So good news - you are right on par with the 14&U girls!!! I wish I was. Sheesh. :bitching:

knelson
March 31st, 2009, 10:19 AM
Kirk, thank you! You are capable of going around 10:00 to 10:10ish!! Forget 10:30! Good luck to you. How much do you kick on that 1000?

Not much, but I've been working on my kick this season too. It's just too easy to fall back to my default of not kicking much.

I think a 10:00-10:10 is possible for Nationals, but not right now. A lot might also hinge on whether I buy a Blue Seventy suit or not.

CreamPuff
March 31st, 2009, 10:24 AM
Not much, but I've been working on my kick this season too. It's just too easy to fall back to my default of not kicking much.

I think a 10:00-10:10 is possible for Nationals, but not right now. A lot might also hinge on whether I buy a Blue Seventy suit or not.

You're tough then. I've been at it 2 weeks although I've already noticed a difference. My coach wears our arms out so much with push ups and press outs during swim sets that there is no choice other than to kick during the swim. Yep, it's a curse when you can swim pretty well with no kick. You'll love B70. They are addictive. Glad I never had one as a kid.

aquageek
March 31st, 2009, 02:08 PM
Excellent times, She-Puffy, especially that 1000, very nice. If I can stop enjoying sprinting (Fort, look away), I sure would like to get my 1000 to 11:00.