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View Full Version : New Swimwear Interpretation from USMS Rules Committee



matysekj
March 26th, 2009, 05:51 PM
The U.S. Masters Swimming Rules Committee has issued a new swimwear interpretation notice (http://www.usms.org/rules/swimsuitnotice090326.pdf) for all USMS members.

jim thornton
March 26th, 2009, 06:40 PM
For the very, very few of you interested in my interpretation of this new interpretation, you can read all about it at: http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?b=2316

chowmi
March 26th, 2009, 06:41 PM
Kathy Casey please help!

Once the allowed list is published, will it be "sudden death" or will there be a grace period to retire any non-conforming suits?

Approximately when is the publication by FINA expected, more like a month after 03/31/09, or more like a year later?

What EXACTLY qualifies as attire that "ensures modesty and privacy"??? I mean, what exactly IS a sports bra, anyway? What would happen if I wore a speedo 2 piece under my swimskin? Can I wear both pieces or just the bikini or just the bra top and hope I don't blow it out in the other area?

Was the FSPro introduced after 09/30/07, or is it included in the list of suits that have to be retested?

chowmi
March 26th, 2009, 06:47 PM
For the very, very few of you interested in my interpretation of this new interpretation, you can read all about it at: http://forums.usms.org/blog.php?b=2316


I disagree. EVERYONE should read this. It will answer all your questions, except for the duct (not duck as i've been saying for all my life!) tape.

ViveBene
March 26th, 2009, 07:55 PM
It was duck tape before it became duct tape. Yer fine.

Part I liked: "bikini bottoms or top or sports bra."

Risible. The man said it.

meldyck
March 26th, 2009, 09:40 PM
I was planning to buy a B70 next week but think I'll wait for the FINA rules. Wouldn't want to throw away a new $300+ suit.

And, I'm going to sport modesty wear on the bottom. Too many views in bright sunlight that I really didn't want to have. The refs can drag me off the blocks and clap me in irons if they want.

Crazyman
March 26th, 2009, 10:38 PM
and i just got Blue 70....Going to try this weekend and at Zone April 11th, who knows, maybe last times....:confused:

The Fortress
March 26th, 2009, 11:22 PM
Seems to me like this rule is just confirming that USMS will comply with the FINA ruling for USMS masters. I didn't take this to mean that B70/LZR might be banned in May. Just that the official list hasn't been issued yet. I think B70s are still legal through the end of this year and, according to B70 statements, B70 has passed the first phase of testing and will be legal through 2010?

Seems like this is mostly a statement that, effectively immediately, USMS masters swimmers cannot wear two tech suits but can wear a brief/bikini item under their tech suits.

david.margrave
March 26th, 2009, 11:31 PM
So a normal speedo under a legskin is legal?

How about a normal speedo outside the legskin? Not that I'd do such a thing, just curious.

Crazyman
March 26th, 2009, 11:31 PM
i'm less concerned about wearing 2 suits. Not in my intention to do so. I just want to swim with Blue 70 in swim meets.

jim thornton
March 26th, 2009, 11:40 PM
Seems to me like this rule is just confirming that USMS will comply with the FINA ruling for USMS masters. I didn't take this to mean that B70/LZR might be banned in May. Just that the official list hasn't been issued yet. I think B70s are still legal through the end of this year and, according to B70 statements, B70 has passed the first phase of testing and will be legal through 2010?

Seems like this is mostly a statement that, effectively immediately, USMS masters swimmers cannot wear two tech suits but can wear a brief/bikini item under their tech suits.

I think they are saying that the nanosecond FINA makes and issues its ruling and dispatches this to the receptive maw of the USMS rules committee, any suits that FINA deems illegal will immediately be stripped of their legality by USMS as well.

I doubt such a declaration will happen soon, but my interpretation of the letter is that it could happen at any time, meaning--technically--you could have swum 199 yards of a World Record Pace Setting 200 Yard Butterfly at Colony Zones this April, and a buzzer could go off, and you could be disqualified in the twinkling before your fingertips reach the wall.

Unlikely, yes. But possible? Yes.

What makes this all the more baffling is that theoretically, at least, your slower nemesis, who swam in the previous heat in his or her B70 flotation device, has already finished and booked his or her 200 Fly time, and this will be placed with total reverence into the record books to be honored as long as men and women gather together by cement ponds everywhere, to relive the glories of yesteryear's masters, and heap scorn on those cheaters who attempted in subsequent heats but were disqualified!

Water, it would seem, will never again be a level playing field!

Syd
March 27th, 2009, 12:36 AM
Jim, you willing to share any of that weed you smokin'?;)

Muppet
March 27th, 2009, 12:38 AM
I think they are saying that the nanosecond FINA makes and issues its ruling and dispatches this to the receptive maw of the USMS rules committee, any suits that FINA deems illegal will immediately be stripped of their legality by USMS as well.

I doubt such a declaration will happen soon, but my interpretation of the letter is that it could happen at any time, meaning--technically--you could have swum 199 yards of a World Record Pace Setting 200 Yard Butterfly at Colony Zones this April, and a buzzer could go off, and you could be disqualified in the twinkling before your fingertips reach the wall.

Unlikely, yes. But possible? Yes.

What makes this all the more baffling is that theoretically, at least, your slower nemesis, who swam in the previous heat in his or her B70 flotation device, has already finished and booked his or her 200 Fly time, and this will be placed with total reverence into the record books to be honored as long as men and women gather together by cement ponds everywhere, to relive the glories of yesteryear's masters, and heap scorn on those cheaters who attempted in subsequent heats but were disqualified!

Water, it would seem, will never again be a level playing field!


Jim, you willing to share any of that weed you smokin'?;)

Seriously...

Jim, that was really stretching it.

Karen Duggan
March 27th, 2009, 02:05 AM
I really want to know:

If I wear a Speedo bikini underneath my B70 (for my eyes only, I would not traumatize any fellow swimmers) WHO will be checking? If they notice something under my suit, will I have to unzip it and show them? Will this happen throughout a meet? Will there be suit police on deck before every heat? Our Pac Champs are already 8 hours plus, this will make each day 12 hours minimum.

This is a bit ridiculous.

imspoiled
March 27th, 2009, 09:53 AM
Does anyone else find it odd, or see the contradiction in stating a rule that prohibits wearing more than one suit at a time, but later saying it's ok to wear a brief for modesty purposes?
__________________________________________________ ___________
#2. NEW U.S.M.S. SWIMWEAR INTERPRETATION
For purposes of Article 102.14 of U.S. Masters Swimming Rules of Competition, Swimwear, the use of more than one suit at a time during any U.S.M.S. sanctioned or recognized competition is prohibited.

5. Question: My coach is forcing me to swim the 1650 Free as a training
swim. Can I wear a drag suit over my jammers?

Answer: No. Although wearing an extra drag suit may not be perceived as having an advantage, the interpretation is that only one swimsuit is permitted.

6. Question: Does "one suit for competition" mean I can only wear one suit for the whole meet?

Answer: No. You can change suits during the meet, but you can only wear one suit at a time. This restriction applies only to the actual races
(competition).
__________________________________________________ ________
Please help me understand why it is illegal to wear a drag suit OVER your competition gear because it violates the rules, yet wearing your competiton suit OVER a brief is legal and not interpreted as wearing two suits?

I've never worn two suits in competition and have no immediate plans to do so; however, the amateur laywer in me can't help but notice the glaring contradiction in the interpretation of this rule.

Unless the "briefs" being worn under the racer are the cotton "tighty-whitey" variety, they are most certainly swim suits (as are bikini bottoms) and should be prohibited by rule as interpreted in questions 5 & 6.

Chris Stevenson
March 27th, 2009, 11:07 AM
Does anyone else find it odd, or see the contradiction in stating a rule that prohibits wearing more than one suit at a time, but later saying it's ok to wear a brief for modesty purposes?

It is confusing for sure.

But the need to prevent a recurrence of what is now widely known as the "Paul Smith nightmare" is very very real... :bump:

orca1946
March 27th, 2009, 11:38 AM
Do these new rules cause more conflict than before?

pwb
March 27th, 2009, 12:58 PM
Does anyone else find it odd, or see the contradiction in stating a rule that prohibits wearing more than one suit at a time, but later saying it's ok to wear a brief for modesty purposes?


It is confusing for sure.

But the need to prevent a recurrence of what is now widely known as the "Paul Smith nightmare" is very very real...

I am confused as well. I want to wear an Aquablade brief underneath my FSPro this weekend in my 200 back only for modesty ... but it would probably be even more immodest if I was forced to strip down to just the brief. I guess I am going with just a single suit for now.

david.margrave
March 27th, 2009, 01:30 PM
Does anyone else find it odd, or see the contradiction in stating a rule that prohibits wearing more than one suit at a time, but later saying it's ok to wear a brief for modesty purposes?


Yes I find it odd, so I asked whether I can wear the briefs over a legskin. And if that is okay, then why not two briefs?

swimshark
March 27th, 2009, 02:48 PM
Does anyone else find it odd, or see the contradiction in stating a rule that prohibits wearing more than one suit at a time, but later saying it's ok to wear a brief for modesty purposes?

.


I'm right there with you.

Jazz Hands
March 27th, 2009, 04:09 PM
I am confused as well. I want to wear an Aquablade brief underneath my FSPro this weekend in my 200 back only for modesty ... but it would probably be even more immodest if I was forced to strip down to just the brief. I guess I am going with just a single suit for now.

You're being paranoid.

1. The rule is clear: you can wear a brief under a tech suit.

2. The suit police aren't going to get you at a masters meet.

nyswimmer
March 27th, 2009, 05:08 PM
You're being paranoid.

1. The rule is clear: you can wear a brief under a tech suit.

2. The suit police aren't going to get you at a masters meet.

It may not be paranoid. A swimmer was disqualified in Europe a week or so ago for wearing a speedo under a legskin, although I'd be surprised if officials were that, um, vigilant at a masters meet. At the very least though, the "one suit" rule seems to be open to some interpretation.

http://www.swimnews.com/News/view/6732

meldyck
March 27th, 2009, 07:21 PM
Kathy Casey's interpretation of the FINA rule is NOT the same as Lane 9's interpretation of the USA Swimming clarification. Please see the following article:

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/lane9/news/20724.asp?q=USA%20Swimming%20Clarifies%20One-Suit%20Rule%20in%20the%20U.S.

The article above had this to say:

"Up until FINA and USA Swimming released these interpretations, some were reading "one suit" as one technical suit allowed, whereas a more common suit might be worn underneath for the purposes of either modesty or ease of putting on a technical suit. This is no longer unclear, as only one item of fabric is permitted effective immediately in the U.S., as well as abroad based on FINA statements."

My feeling is that the issue of 'modesty' undergarments need to be specifically included in the new rule language.

orca1946
March 28th, 2009, 03:35 PM
So, at the state meet April 17 - 20 in Illinois -can we wear a speedo under the tech suit?

pdjang
March 28th, 2009, 04:49 PM
Great questions and J.T. missed his calling as late night talk host.

Seriously, has anyone contacted the rules committee with questions? The memo was signed by:


Kathy Casey, Chair,
U.S. Masters Swimming Rules Committee
rules@usms.org

And she did invite questions.

I think that if Ms Casey participated in the forum discussions, it would obviate (hopefully) the rumors, myths and other nonsense.

Ms Casey - come join the forum!!! (unless you are shyly lurking) and illuminate the swimwear situation.
Thanks,
P

RobbieD
March 28th, 2009, 05:43 PM
I actually e-mailed Kathy when the notice came out...

In my e-mail I asked: "Am I correct in understanding that if I am wearing an approved body suit that I can wear a regular speedo brief underneath as a 'modesty suit?'"

She answered: "Yes, as long as it’s for modesty only and not for additional compression or flotation. The officials on deck will be the “judges” of this."

KEWebb18
March 28th, 2009, 05:54 PM
Looks like we will all have mandatory deck changing after all events to ensure masters swimmers are being "modest".
Seriously though, is this really going to be another job for the officials to check suits at each and every meet?

knelson
March 28th, 2009, 08:01 PM
1. The rule is clear: you can wear a brief under a tech suit

It seems pretty clear to me, too. I don't really understand why there are so many questions about this.

And, by the way, Kathy Casey has posted regarding rules on these forums many times.

james lucas
March 29th, 2009, 02:34 AM
I actually e-mailed Kathy when the notice came out... "Am I correct ... I can wear a regular speedo brief underneath as a 'modesty suit?'" ... She answered: "Yes, as long as it’s for modesty only and not for additional compression or flotation. The officials on deck will be the “judges” of this."

I guess she has a point: some don't wear their Speedo to the beach because they consider it to be a "brief..." Nonetheless, this is starting to remind me of the 55-MPH speed limit: everyone drives 75, but the cops get to make a judgment to arrest black people, kids and old guys driving red sports cars.

I, for one, have no clue what's actually permitted under these rules.

james lucas
March 29th, 2009, 02:39 AM
1. The rule is clear: you can wear a brief under a tech suit.

The language also specifies that you cannot wear a swim suit under a tech suit. What if the brief is a swim suit?

Charge
March 29th, 2009, 09:07 AM
Bottom line, the only way you get called out is if a fellow swimmer sees it and says something or if it is obvious you have multiple suits on.

I wore brief under my legskins yesterday, I also ad minimal time between my 100 free and 50 back so I threw on my backstroke suit right over by legskins for the sake of time. Of course my times aren't setting the world on fire, so I'm not sure anyone cares anyway.

Paul Smith
March 29th, 2009, 09:44 AM
They actually made an announcment at the Arizona State Meet yesterday about the two suit rule change...needless to say ther were a lot of confused people.

osterber
March 30th, 2009, 10:35 AM
I think they are saying that the nanosecond FINA makes and issues its ruling and dispatches this to the receptive maw of the USMS rules committee, any suits that FINA deems illegal will immediately be stripped of their legality by USMS as well.


I believe there is an over-arching rule that indicates that the rules in effect at the beginning of a competition shall stay in effect for the duration of the competition.

In fact, it's right at the very top of the first section of the rule book:

"Rules in effect on the first day of a meet shall govern throughout the meet."

So for example, if FINA hypothetically made some suit illegal on January 2 of some year, you could still do your One Hour Swim on January 30 using that illegal suit, because it was legal when the meet started on January 1.

-Rick

Dolphin 2
March 30th, 2009, 10:51 AM
What ever the new rules are, I bet the suit makers were sitting on the shoulders of the USMS committee like the Old Devil. :bitching:

Dolphin 2

Jazz Hands
March 30th, 2009, 11:15 AM
Dude, just go away. You only post on one subject, you always say the same thing, and you don't even swim. We get the point.

orca1946
March 30th, 2009, 11:59 AM
As of today , you should have received the new ruling by email It appears that you way wear a speedo type brief or 2 piece type under the tech suit.