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quicksilver
April 6th, 2009, 11:18 AM
Any old dogs out there trying new tricks? Any younger generation masters swimmers swimming this way?

http://www.goswim.tv/entries/5398/freestyle---loper-drill.html



"In watching the Olympics, we can't help but notice the impact that "lopers" are having in freestyle. While high-rate freestylers and straight-arm freestylers have been getting the most attention this year for the speeds they've achieved, lopers are certainly making a HUGE impact."

Jazz Hands
April 6th, 2009, 12:01 PM
I lope, especially when I'm breathing every cycle. Even on a 50 you can see it. A lot of people make fun of me for it.

Speedo
April 6th, 2009, 12:07 PM
I switch to a loping stroke on the 2nd 50 of the 100, mainly to prevent tricept fatigue. Maybe not the fastest alternative, but it was a good trick in college.

orca1946
April 6th, 2009, 12:18 PM
Does it improve the stroke? I am always thining about being smooth

quicksilver
April 6th, 2009, 12:40 PM
It's a power driven stroke. And probably suits people with strong upper bodies and a good kick.

Many of the teenage boys at our last USA meet were loping. It was very cool to watch. They were fast.

At around 3 minutes into this clip (of infamous the relay), you can see how Lezak's freestyle begins reeling in Bernard.
He just gallops his way to the finish.

YouTube - men's 4x100 freestyle relay - Beijing - UNDERWATER VIEW

knelson
April 6th, 2009, 01:21 PM
I know they are intentionally exaggerating this in the drill, but isn't it illegal to fully submerge once you've surfaced? If so, there are definitely guys swimming in that goswim clip with an illegal stroke.

That underwater video of the Olympic relay is really cool! It sounds like they recorded the audio for it underwater, too ;)

ande
April 6th, 2009, 03:24 PM
I have a feeling loping could be a hard thing to teach and hard to learn.

it might be something swimmers settle into after years of training.

It takes s strong kick & core to lope, but when it falls apart (race fatigue, bad splitting) things get ugly and worse than swimmer's with a balanced free.

A

if I lope when I swim free
Does that give me an Ande-lope?

stillwater
April 6th, 2009, 04:02 PM
In ocean water swims I lope, more pronounced if there are swells. It helps me with rhythm and spotting.

It wasn't taught to me, it just feels better. Once I got over the fact that I changed my stroke to meet the conditions I had much more fun.

I kind of like my lope now.

Speedo
April 6th, 2009, 04:09 PM
Does that give me an Ande-lope?
Well, you are always pushing the Enve-lope :bolt:

stillwater
April 6th, 2009, 04:26 PM
What did the fruit swimming in Italy say?

canteloupe

What did the parents tell a young couple?

Can't elope.

I'll stop now.

rtodd
April 6th, 2009, 05:34 PM
I guess loping works. Lezak and Phelps use it. I watched carefully in slow motion and it looks like Phelps gets completely submerged. It must be legal. Perhaps his feet ever so slightly break the surface.

chaos
April 6th, 2009, 06:45 PM
i lope when i walk.

knelson
April 7th, 2009, 12:06 AM
I watched carefully in slow motion and it looks like Phelps gets completely submerged. It must be legal.

Definitely not legal:

SW 5.3 Some part of the swimmer must break the surface of the water throughout the race, except it shall be permissible for the swimmer to be completely submerged during the turn and for a distance of not more than 15 metres after the start and each turn. By that point, the head must have broken the surface.

quicksilver
April 7th, 2009, 10:17 AM
I think what Rob is saying, is that there's a split second of everything being under the water line.
Head, shoulders and torso disappear from the surface.

This TI clip shows both the TI Coach and Phelps experience total submersion during the mid stroke cycle.
(Phelps however uses a slight lope, even when he's doing a relaxed 2 beat kick.)

YouTube - Comparison of Freestyle (Jones, Phelps and TI coach)

thewookiee
April 7th, 2009, 01:40 PM
I think what Rob is saying, is that there's a split second of everything being under the water line.
Head, shoulders and torso disappear from the surface.

This TI clip shows both the TI Coach and Phelps experience total submersion during the mid stroke cycle.
(Phelps however uses a slight lope, even when he's doing a relaxed 2 beat kick.)

YouTube - Comparison of Freestyle (Jones, Phelps and TI coach) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ENDX_e7aRg&feature=related)


Another thing that stands out to me on those clips, is that the shoulders rotate out of the water BEFORE the arm exits to start the recovery

I had thought for a long time that the shoulder and exiting arm came out together but in those clips of Jones and Phelps, it is clear that the shoulder exits first, then the recovering arm follows suit...eye opening.

nkfrench
April 7th, 2009, 02:58 PM
My theory is that the lope allows the swimmer to incorporate some dolphining into the long-axis strokes, ie, use the torso to produce propulsion.

rtodd
April 7th, 2009, 07:36 PM
Here is a nice lope. He basically gets submerged.


YouTube - Phelps Smashes 200-free World Record

quicksilver
April 7th, 2009, 08:38 PM
Neat video Rob.

The commentator even remarked on the loping style.
And the brief underwater 'gallop' is pretty noticeable.

rtodd
April 7th, 2009, 09:10 PM
Now if I could just do that.....hmmmmm.

chaos
April 7th, 2009, 09:44 PM
seems to me like the lope is really an adjustment made for breathing.
two questions:

1) does anyone lope and alternate breathe?

2) would phelps do the lope if he were swimming with a snorkel?

loping is not something i practice, but i do fall into it naturally if i am swimming at race pace and breathing on one side.

Chris Stevenson
April 8th, 2009, 09:35 AM
seems to me like the lope is really an adjustment made for breathing.

1) does anyone lope and alternate breathe?
2) would phelps do the lope if he were swimming with a snorkel?


My theory is that the lope allows the swimmer to incorporate some dolphining into the long-axis strokes, ie, use the torso to produce propulsion.

In my own freestyle, I both lope and add a dolphin kick.

But I think David is mostly right (or maybe they both are). Loping in backstroke seems less common than in freestyle.

quicksilver
April 8th, 2009, 10:02 AM
Alternate breathing and loping don't appear to work very well together...for me anyway. It's an early obervation.


I noticed that the lope feels more rhythmic and natural when it's done to only one side.
Usually the side that you breathe on is the one in which the arm initiates the downward lope (as in the Go-Swim video).





I'm also experimenting with doing it in backstroke.
It seems as if the arms can be used as weights to throw momentum forward.

thewookiee
April 8th, 2009, 10:37 AM
In my own freestyle, I both lope and add a dolphin kick.

But I think David is mostly right (or maybe they both are). Loping in backstroke seems less common than in freestyle.

Chris, do you have video of your freestyle?

Daaaave
April 8th, 2009, 11:11 AM
FWIW, and not really related to loping: That 2007 World Champs WR 200 Free is still my favorite individual Phelps race -- more than any of his Oly swims.

What Phelps does to PVDH on that third wall and last lap just shouldn't be possible. What do you think was going through PVDH's head coming out of the last turn as he watched Phelps rocket forward? He must have been dumfounded. And listen to the crowd react as Phelps surfaces--awesome.

I remember reading that PVDH announced the removal of the 2-free from his lineup at the press conference that day, fully and graciously conceding that he got irrevocably dominated in the race. Phelps SDK'd him into retirement. So bad-a$$.

Chris Stevenson
April 8th, 2009, 11:18 AM
Chris, do you have video of your freestyle?

The only thing I have was the DVD from the 400 free at the Oregon nationals. I don't know how (or if) I can transfer it to create a computer file (it is illegal to do so, I'm sure). The quality isn't great IMO.

But there will be a article (I think "Unorthodox Techniques" is the working title) in USMS Swimmer with some stills of the freestyle, both above and underwater. I don't know when it will appear; a backstroke article will come first.

Pretty it ain't; Mark Gill usually describes it as a train wreck. I certainly don't think anyone should emulate it, but all the elements of it (straight arm recovery, loping, dolphin kick) are things I see much more routinely in other people's freestyle nowadays than 20 years ago.

thewookiee
April 8th, 2009, 11:49 AM
Pretty it ain't; Mark Gill usually describes it as a train wreck. I certainly don't think anyone should emulate it, but all the elements of it (straight arm recovery, loping, dolphin kick) are things I see much more routinely in other people's freestyle nowadays than 20 years ago.


Last time I checked, no one gets points for being pretty...just fast. Couple of questions. You do a straight arm recovery? Totally straight or slight bend? How does this effect your distance swimming/training?

Second, on the recovery, does your shoulder rotate out first from the water, then the rest of the arm follow, like in backstroke? I think I have been trying to my arm out of the water, without getting the shoulder to roll first, to provide an easier path for the rest of the arm.

BillS
April 8th, 2009, 12:06 PM
The only thing I have was the DVD from the 400 free at the Oregon nationals. I don't know how (or if) I can transfer it to create a computer file (it is illegal to do so, I'm sure). The quality isn't great IMO.



Probably nothing illegal about it, Chris. I haven't looked at my discs to see if they are copyrighted. I doubt they could be. But even if they are, your posting of a portion of a video featuring you, for the legitimate and non-commercial purpose of allowing us to analyze your train wre . . . err, stroke, would likely constitute "fair use." There is a 4 part test for what constitutes fair use, but the effect on the market is the most important factor. Posting one heat, or a portion of one heat, of the 400 would seem to have a negligible impact on the market.

Of course, if you get your butt sued off, just remember what free advice is worth.

Chris Stevenson
April 8th, 2009, 12:07 PM
Last time I checked, no one gets points for being pretty...just fast. Couple of questions. You do a straight arm recovery? Totally straight or slight bend? How does this effect your distance swimming/training?

Second, on the recovery, does your shoulder rotate out first from the water, then the rest of the arm follow, like in backstroke? I think I have been trying to my arm out of the water, without getting the shoulder to roll first, to provide an easier path for the rest of the arm.

Left arm is straight, right arm is sometimes straight. It depends how fast I'm going: the faster the turnover, the straighter the arms.

Shoulder comes out first, I think.

You have to realize that this is the most I've thought of my stroke, probably ever. I'm a "do what feels right," instinctual type of swimmer, very much a dinosaur now in this high-tech, technique-oriented age. Spending hours on correct hand placement and the like would make me crazy. (I'm not saying this is a good attitude to have, just that it is mine.)

The Fortress
April 8th, 2009, 12:13 PM
In my own freestyle, I both lope and add a dolphin kick.

When do you sneak in the dolphin kick?

You breath to the right, right? Do you think the lope + unilateral breathing could strain the left shoulder at all?

thewookiee
April 8th, 2009, 12:29 PM
Left arm is straight, right arm is sometimes straight. It depends how fast I'm going: the faster the turnover, the straighter the arms.

Shoulder comes out first, I think.

You have to realize that this is the most I've thought of my stroke, probably ever. I'm a "do what feels right," instinctual type of swimmer, very much a dinosaur now in this high-tech, technique-oriented age. Spending hours on correct hand placement and the like would make me crazy. (I'm not saying this is a good attitude to have, just that it is mine.)

Will you be at Zones or N.C. state meet?

thewookiee
April 8th, 2009, 12:30 PM
. Spending hours on correct hand placement and the like would make me crazy. (I'm not saying this is a good attitude to have, just that it is mine.)

That's what I got caught up in doing...now, my brain and body can't agree on what to do or what feels right the majority of the time...I use to swim with what felt right.

Chris Stevenson
April 8th, 2009, 01:23 PM
Will you be at Zones or N.C. state meet?

If they don't cancel it, I'll be at the NC meet. Two freestyle events: 200 and 1000.

Fortress, I don't remember; I know it happens whether I breathe or not. It is pretty obvious in the photos, though.

No shoulder problems so far!

thewookiee
April 8th, 2009, 01:38 PM
If they don't cancel it, I'll be at the NC meet. Two freestyle events: 200 and 1000.

Fortress, I don't remember; I know it happens whether I breathe or not. It is pretty obvious in the photos, though.

No shoulder problems so far!

Chris...the meet is ON for N.C. I mailed my entries in today for it and zones.

orca1946
April 9th, 2009, 04:49 PM
From what I see, loping is on the breathing side.

thewookiee
April 9th, 2009, 08:32 PM
No shoulder problems so far!

You mentioned no shoulder problems. Do you get any forearm fatigue? My left one gets tired and tight...no problems with the right one though

KEWebb18
April 9th, 2009, 09:22 PM
FWIW, and not really related to loping: That 2007 World Champs WR 200 Free is still my favorite individual Phelps race -- more than any of his Oly swims.

What Phelps does to PVDH on that third wall and last lap just shouldn't be possible. What do you think was going through PVDH's head coming out of the last turn as he watched Phelps rocket forward? He must have been dumfounded.

I just watched that video--AMAZING. It makes me want to try to make my stroke into a loping freestyle!!!!
I always thought that good technique made having a good-looking stroke and I guess I was wrong...when I get back in the pool I am going to swim ugly and fast :)

KEWebb18
April 9th, 2009, 09:23 PM
No shoulder problems so far!

Chris--are your elbow pains from your free or your backstroke? Just curious.

Chris Stevenson
April 9th, 2009, 09:27 PM
You mentioned no shoulder problems. Do you get any forearm fatigue? My left one gets tired and tight...no problems with the right one though

No, although as Karen mentions...


Chris--are your elbow pains from your free or your backstroke? Just curious.

I think they originate from weights. Swimming can aggravate it. It is not stroke specific, I feel it most at the catch when I use my forearms.

KEWebb18
April 9th, 2009, 09:37 PM
So are coaches teaching this type of stroke now? I feel so "out of the loop" since I am not around age group swimming now.

Couroboros
April 9th, 2009, 11:48 PM
*looks at the linked videos*

*looks harder*

*squints, looks like Quasimodo*

I still don't see what the heck loping is supposed to be. :confused:

spell_me
April 10th, 2009, 06:38 AM
I'm not really getting it, either, Courobouros.

Rykno
April 10th, 2009, 08:55 AM
I think when I get into a distance swim mode, I swim similar to this, but with out the legs :-)

been told I look like I am doing some form of the catch up drill. but after watching the video linked, I'm going to work my legs better and work on head position

hnatkin
April 10th, 2009, 09:37 AM
Try putting on fins and doing it really exaggerated at first until you get a feel for the rhythm.

Daaaave
April 10th, 2009, 10:05 AM
*looks at the linked videos*

*looks harder*

*squints, looks like Quasimodo*

I still don't see what the heck loping is supposed to be. :confused:

Watch the Phelps world champs video and tap your finger on your desk every time one of his hands enters the water in front. The loping rhythm will be more of a "lub-dub *pause*, lub-dub *pause*" than an even "tick-tick-tick-tick" like a metronome.

I've heard some call this a "gallop" in their stroke if that helps you link the visual to the words.

quicksilver
April 10th, 2009, 10:42 AM
Hope you don't mind Chris if I post your backstroke technique.
It's not all that common to see a lope in backstroke. The bounce seems to generate so much momentum.
YouTube - Colonies Zone - Awesome Backstroke

thewookiee
April 10th, 2009, 10:51 AM
Hope you don't mind Chris if I post your backstroke technique.
It's not all that common to see a lope in backstroke. The bounce seems to generate so much momentum.
YouTube - Colonies Zone - Awesome Backstroke (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyhXx9Dtdo0)

I think one would have to be careful to make sure the "bounce" doesn't become too high or too deep during the swim. That would end up being counter productive.

Just how does one "lope" during backstroke? I saw the swim but that seems odd.

quicksilver
April 10th, 2009, 11:27 AM
I think one would have to be careful to make sure the "bounce" doesn't become too high or too deep during the swim. That would end up being counter productive.

Just how does one "lope" during backstroke? I saw the swim but that seems odd.

Very true.

Because the arms don't bend on the recovery, the momentum might have a little upward lift before the arms make it past 12 0'clock and start swinging downward towards the water.

I can't say for sure what it should feel like. But in experimenting with the lope on freestyle and backstroke I found, as you said, that the momentum ideally has to be carried forward not up and down. Otherwise, deliberate bouncing could slow one down.

Couroboros
April 10th, 2009, 02:06 PM
Watch the Phelps world champs video and tap your finger on your desk every time one of his hands enters the water in front. The loping rhythm will be more of a "lub-dub *pause*, lub-dub *pause*" than an even "tick-tick-tick-tick" like a metronome.

I've heard some call this a "gallop" in their stroke if that helps you link the visual to the words.

Oh. I see now. Thanks!

I'm a pretty new swimmer. Is this loping business something I should consider later after I've got my normal freestyle down pat, or something I could work on now while I'm still "fresh"?

orca1946
April 10th, 2009, 02:21 PM
No, keep the smooth style for a newer swimmer.

boathead
April 10th, 2009, 11:56 PM
Loping, obviously is an asymmetrical stroke. You rely more on one side than the other for propulsion. Certainly it comes naturally to one sided breathers in freestyle, but the video of the backstroke shows it is not just about breathing. And it is not just about upper body either. One arm could be stronger, one leg could be stronger, or both in the right combination (left arm-right leg, or right arm-left leg). Those who throw and kick on opposite sides might be advantaged here.

I took up breathing every third stroke as an adult to help deal with shoulder pain. But it has made me reluctant to swim longer events because I don't get enough wind. Lately I've tried alternately breathing every third with every second stroke, and that's given me better wind, a faster turnover, and a LOPE!
It's more intermittent than Phelps, but it is fun. I have to be careful though, not for my shoulder, but my stroke tends to break down a little. Ahh, it's still new. I'll figure it out.

By the way, I watched the same WR 200 from Phelps above as everyone else, and he never came close to being fully submerged. The woman commentator even remarked about how high he was riding in the water. Even if his head was submerged (maybe), one shoulder or the other was always out. Those who say otherwise, tell me where in the footage?

boathead
April 11th, 2009, 12:02 AM
Loping, obviously is an asymmetrical stroke. You rely more on one side than the other for propulsion. Certainly it comes naturally to one sided breathers in freestyle, but the video of the backstroke shows it is not just about breathing. And it is not just about upper body either. One arm could be stronger, one leg could be stronger, or both in the right combination (left arm-right leg, or right arm-left leg). Those who throw and kick on opposite sides might be advantaged here.

I took up breathing every third stroke as an adult to help deal with shoulder pain. But it has made me reluctant to swim longer events because I don't get enough wind. Lately I've tried alternately breathing every third with every second stroke, and that's given me better wind, a faster turnover, and a LOPE!
It's more intermittent than Phelps, but it is fun. I have to be careful though, not for my shoulder, but my stroke tends to break down a little. Ahh, it's still new. I'll figure it out.

By the way, I watched the same WR 200 from Phelps above as everyone else, and he never came close to being fully submerged. The woman commentator even remarked about how high he was riding in the water. Even if his head was submerged (maybe), one shoulder or the other was always out. Those who say otherwise, tell me where in the footage?

rtodd
April 11th, 2009, 08:24 AM
By the way, I watched the same WR 200 from Phelps above as everyone else, and he never came close to being fully submerged. The woman commentator even remarked about how high he was riding in the water. Even if his head was submerged (maybe), one shoulder or the other was always out. Those who say otherwise, tell me where in the footage?

I think his lope is a bit more pronounced in Beijing. Also watching the Olympics, both his arms, head and upper back are under at the same time. There may be some area around the small of his lower back in the trough that is uncovered and his feet may break the surface here and there. There should be access to the Beijing 200 on their website. Check it out.

rtodd
April 11th, 2009, 10:39 AM
Here it is. It looks like he gets way under. This looks alot different from the World Champs video.


YouTube - Michael Phelps 200M Freestyle Final Beijing 08

boathead
April 11th, 2009, 01:35 PM
On the Bejing video, especially on the bit they played at the end, he looks pretty deep. But the angle is not a good angle. I can see your point of view. I will say this, though. During that race, and the world championship race as well, every time the camera got close and from the side, he wasn't coming close to being as deep as that top shot looked.

Also, how does one judge what the water level is? If the water slides over the top of his cap, is he under water? The water level is up and down and all around. I've seen breaststrokers who look more under water on their glide than Phelps looks. Is breaststroke not allowed in a freestyle competition?

I'm actually astonished there would be a rule about this in freestyle. I always thought freestyle means "get there however you can as fast as you can". Are there people who can swim faster than Cesar Cielo all under water?

rtodd
April 11th, 2009, 05:37 PM
I guess the rule is so you don't resubmerge and do underwater SDK? As long as you are doing the front crawl, I don't think you would ever see a DQ. Your feet are almost always breaking the surface.

Phelps did not invent one sided breathing or the lope that comes with it, he did not invent SDK, but he shure is exploiting these things.

Check out Athens. Watch Phelps carefully. The lope is not nearly as defined as now. Thorpe demonstrates the symmetrical no lope form. I think we will see more of the lope.

YouTube - Michael Phelps vs Ian Thorpe - 200m Freestyle

Thrashing Slug
April 11th, 2009, 10:44 PM
"The Lope" was on display today at the PNA Championships meet in Federal Way. Someone did a ridiculously fast 200 Free using it.. in the 1:45 range if I am not mistaken.

boathead
April 11th, 2009, 10:44 PM
Forgive my ignorance, but SDK means what? Submerged dolphin kick?

On the Athens video, you can see he hasn't developed that to the same extent as in Bejing either. I think we'll see a lot more of this, too.

There's some kind of twisting torque thing that's going on in the stroke that gives it great power. Kind of, windup-UNWIND. The stroke has to be asymmetrical to work. It's clever how the breathing plays a role. And one can breathe more during the race.

It's going to be rough on shoulders, though, perhaps no matter what, but for sure if it isn't done right and carefully practiced. I say this knowing that the key to it all is in the core. It isn't an accident that Phelps can swim this way AND comes out of turns the way he does.

That Guy
April 11th, 2009, 11:08 PM
"The Lope" was on display today at the PNA Championships meet in Federal Way. Someone did a ridiculously fast 200 Free using it.. in the 1:45 range if I am not mistaken.

Actually he went 1:40 in the 200 free. And 45 in the 100! His loping stroke seemed effortless and was amazing to watch. Guessing here, but I think his secret weapon is his kick.

quicksilver
April 12th, 2009, 08:39 AM
I was at a meet yesterday and took note of how many 20 year olds were using the loping style during the 100 free.

Breathing every stroke with rhythmic gallop. The two seem to go hand in hand. It was impressive.
It was surprising how breathing every stroke (during a sprint) had little interference with the times. They were fast.


Maybe staying well oxygenated is a benefit to using this technique?

rtodd
April 12th, 2009, 05:37 PM
Oxygen is key in a 60 second effort. Past 20 seconds there is a very measureable aerobic component.

LonghornbackinTX
April 12th, 2009, 10:13 PM
I tried the lope drill in practice the other day. I did put fins on. It was interesting. I think I have a little of that in my stroke already, but not as pronouced.

RFBG
April 13th, 2009, 02:22 AM
From checking the videos the loping pattern is 1(pull), 2(pull), 1(glide)... ..1(pull), 2(pull), 1 (glide)... and so forth.
The question is "which arm, left or right, goes first in the sequence 1(pull), 2(pull), 1(glide) ?".
Phelps lopes: right (pull), left (pull), right (glide).
Is he left handed ?
Should the stronger arm go first, or second ?
What about other known lopers ?

nYcSurfer
April 13th, 2009, 07:34 AM
I tried loping during my 500 Free in a meet on Saturday and all I have to say is that I will be practicing this and doing in competition from now on. I definitely noticed a difference in my breathing pattern and my ability to remain streamline on each stroke.

Thrashing Slug
April 13th, 2009, 09:23 AM
How do you try loping? I'm curious but don't really understand what it would take to switch from a symmetrical breathe-every-3 stroke to a lope. Is it kind of like the dolphining stroke that open water swimmers use for sighting?

smontanaro
April 13th, 2009, 10:12 AM
I tried just a few strokes of it the other day during practice. Seemed pretty natural to me, but then I'm not a bilateral breather. It felt sort of like tossing in one rep of a single-arm fly drill at the right time.

lefty
April 17th, 2009, 01:06 PM
I did a set of 400s (meters) yesterday; I naturally lope when I do distance sets. Ande pointed out that it takes alot of "core" stregnth to lope properly. He is right on with that. After the 400s I did a set of dolphin kicks on my back and my stomach felt very fatigued.

new
April 20th, 2009, 02:53 PM
This post is ****ing up my stroke!

I have a symmetrical stroke, I have been always trying to swim like Thorpe, but I also tried sometime the Phelpesian stroke.

Now, every time I'm swimming, I'm like, one lap symmetric, and the next one loping,
I timed both ways swimming 400s with enough rest, And is very much the same speed. (a little faster with symmetrical cause Iím more used to)

symmetrical you don't have that much air, and loping my left arm gets more tired that the right.

What I'm saying is, I don't know what to do now. I like both, very similar speed, but I can't keep swimming with this thought of doing this or that.

Any thought's?

Crazyman
April 20th, 2009, 03:19 PM
i tried looping 200's and it was ok speed. For 50 this was slower than i do with non-looping swim.
I don't want to experiment before Nats at all. But could imagine to do this this summer when i'm not compete. My goal is getting better with kick and looping swim.

Chris Stevenson
April 20th, 2009, 04:22 PM
This post is ****ing up my stroke!

I have a symmetrical stroke, I have been always trying to swim like Thorpe, but I also tried sometime the Phelpesian stroke.

Now, every time I'm swimming, I'm like, one lap symmetric, and the next one loping,
I timed both ways swimming 400s with enough rest, And is very much the same speed. (a little faster with symmetrical cause I’m more used to)

symmetrical you don't have that much air, and loping my left arm gets more tired that the right.

What I'm saying is, I don't know what to do now. I like both, very similar speed, but I can't keep swimming with this thought of doing this or that.

Any thought's?

Even though I lope, I still don't quite understand why someone would change their stroke to adopt it.

My advice: let your need for oxygen decide your breathing pattern, and go from there. Probably loping is a natural result of breathing every other stroke (ie, always to one side). I can see why that breathing pattern would give the fastest times for certain distances. Try it both ways (eg every other and every third) and see which works best.

quicksilver
April 20th, 2009, 08:54 PM
Just a quick observation bought up in the YMCA Nationals thread about Rowdy Gaines' 100 free record swim.
He appears to have a very prominent lope in his stroke. (1 minute seven seconds into the clip)

And as was mentioned...it often occurs while breathing predominantly to one side.
Alternate breathing swimmers seem to smooth out by comparison.

YouTube - Morning Swim Show, News, April 17, 2009

bamueller
April 21st, 2009, 04:26 PM
When I first started swimming with the local master's team here, two people commented on my freestyle and said that I had a gallop or lope. Prior to this, I had been out of the pool for probably 15 years, but swam off and on to get in a workout. Long story short, they told me to correct my loping. I was just doing what comes naturally, as in it feels right.

Now that I read this, I am wondering if I should continue with my cadence, because it does feel better, rhythmically. I breathe to the right.

If I work on loping, will I overdevelop/underdevelop my shoulders or foul up my stroke? It is nothing irreversible I am assuming.

haffathot
April 22nd, 2009, 05:33 PM
seems to me that loping is nothing more than converting freestyle arms to modified fly arms. for instance, if anyone has ever done some degree of single arm butterfly (GoSwim.TV has a 3-3-3 Fly drill, for instance), the single-arm portions are loping strokes. The underwater pull is different, but the recovery is the same. Thus, although loping is predominantly done with same-side breathing, it can be done breathing every third stroke. In such case, you'd lope the breathing stroke. i tend to glide out my freestyle strokes a bit, so, with a bit more emphasis on the diving arm motion, i am pretty sure i could convert my stroke into a more loping stroke with little trouble. i'll have to try it.

--Sean

Couroboros
April 22nd, 2009, 05:50 PM
Even though I lope, I still don't quite understand why someone would change their stroke to adopt it.

My advice: let your need for oxygen decide your breathing pattern, and go from there. Probably loping is a natural result of breathing every other stroke (ie, always to one side). I can see why that breathing pattern would give the fastest times for certain distances. Try it both ways (eg every other and every third) and see which works best.

Whaaat?! I breathe to one side all the time and I'm pretty sure I don't lope.

*uber confused*

Jazz Hands
April 22nd, 2009, 05:56 PM
Whaaat?! I breathe to one side all the time and I'm pretty sure I don't lope.

*uber confused*

Seriously? He said that if you lope, this is probably because of breathing to one side. That doesn't mean breathing to one side guarantees a lope. And even if you feel like you don't lope, you probably do to some extent.

haffathot
April 22nd, 2009, 07:09 PM
breathing on only one side often leads to a bad habit of over-emphasizing the breathing arm and under-emphasizing the non-breathing arm. thus, many people that breathe on a single side may be natural lopers. however, as was said above, that does not mean that all are.

--Sean

Jazz Hands
April 22nd, 2009, 08:41 PM
breathing on only one side often leads to a bad habit of over-emphasizing the breathing arm and under-emphasizing the non-breathing arm. thus, many people that breathe on a single side may be natural lopers. however, as was said above, that does not mean that all are.

--Sean

Which leads to the even worse habit of being one of the fastest swimmers in the world.

haffathot
April 22nd, 2009, 08:57 PM
the over-emphasis of the breathing arm and under-emphasis of the non-breathing arm may lead to loping in some swimmers, but that is neither the norm nor a good habit. the reason why new learners of freestyle over-emphasize the breathing side and under-emphasize the non-breathing side is because of a fear of lack of breath. by practicing such a habit, one maximizes breathing time and minimizes non-breathing time. the loping effect comes about from the guilty-feeling swimmer trying to, literally, make up for the lost time caused by the excess time spent breathing. as one might imagine, this only manifests in competitive swimmers, and non-competitive swimmers, without intervention, continue to devolve their strokes until, in some of the more extreme cases, the swimmer ends up doggy-paddling with the non-breathing side and windmilling on the breathing side. loping is a good result that has been formulated from a bad habit. we should observe the effect and incorporate it into better habits.

--Sean