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View Full Version : What's your LMSC policy on Top Tens?



Karen Duggan
April 6th, 2009, 05:16 PM
In Pacific, we only count times swum in Pacific sanctioned meets for our Top Tens and Records.

I was wondering if your LMSC counts times swum at Nationals, or in other LMSCs, in your LMSC tabulations?

This has always been frustrating for me, especially during LC season, as we usually only have one or two meets. Last year and this year we had one meet, our LC championships! I would love to be able to have Nationals times count, and/or be able to enter meets in other LMSCs and have the times count in Pacific tabulations.

If you respond, could you tell me what LMSC you're in? I'm going to present "my case" at our May meeting.

Thanks : ]

JimRude
April 6th, 2009, 05:23 PM
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe for OREG all meets are good.

Chris Stevenson
April 6th, 2009, 05:39 PM
In the Virginia LMSC we do not have an LMSC-specific top ten list. But we do maintain LMSC records.

Any time by a person registered in our LMSC counts. The meet can be anywhere, and includes nationals, as long as it is sanctioned or recognized.

pwb
April 6th, 2009, 05:45 PM
In the Virginia LMSC we do not have an LMSC-specific top ten list. But we do maintain LMSC records.

Any time by a person registered in our LMSC counts. The meet can be anywhere, and includes nationals, as long as it is sanctioned or recognized.

Arizona is the same.

Karlene
April 6th, 2009, 06:32 PM
Ditto for Indiana.

jim clemmons
April 6th, 2009, 07:14 PM
In Pacific, we only count times swum in Pacific sanctioned meets for our Top Tens and Records.

I was wondering if your LMSC counts times swum at Nationals, or in other LMSCs, in your LMSC tabulations?

This has always been frustrating for me, especially during LC season, as we usually only have one or two meets. Last year and this year we had one meet, our LC championships! I would love to be able to have Nationals times count, and/or be able to enter meets in other LMSCs and have the times count in Pacific tabulations.

If you respond, could you tell me what LMSC you're in? I'm going to present "my case" at our May meeting.

Thanks : ]

Karen,

That's not quite accurate. I believe only the times swum during PA meets count for PA "points" in the SOTY tabulation. USMS "points" and records can be set anywhere assuming sanctioning of the meet.

The Fortress
April 6th, 2009, 07:21 PM
To my knowledge, Potomac Valley doesn't keep LMSC-specific Top Tens or PV LMSC records.

Allen Stark
April 6th, 2009, 09:40 PM
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe for OREG all meets are good.
OREG is amazing.Any USMS swim counts and swims elsewhere count with proper documentation.In addition we have a cumulative Top 12 in all distances.(I lived in Houston til 1988 and they had almost no documentation.I never heard of LMSC records or times there.)

tjrpatt
April 6th, 2009, 10:08 PM
Ditto for the Delaware Valley.

Charge
April 6th, 2009, 11:04 PM
I think all meets in the Gulf and NT regions are eligible. The issue that I am finding, is that often the meet coordinator doesn't bother to submit the times.

I was at a meet in SugarLand in January. They announced that a swimmer broke a WR and that the pool was re-measured...


2 months later none of the swims have shown up in the event ranking database and I can't get any emails to them returned!

ourswimmer
April 6th, 2009, 11:27 PM
I have never seen or heard of a Pacific Masters "Top Ten" list. Does someone really compile them each year? If so, they aren't distributing them very widely!

For many events, like distance freestyle and 200s stroke, even if you allowed swims by Pacific-registered swimmers in meets outside Pacific, it would just be a list of who swam the event that year, because you wouldn't even have ten different Pacific-registered people in one age group who had done the event. I suppose the order might change some if a person swam better at Nationals than at a local mid-season meet, but it still would seem like a lot of trouble to keep a very small list.

jim clemmons
April 7th, 2009, 11:47 AM
I have never seen or heard of a Pacific Masters "Top Ten" list. Does someone really compile them each year?


Yes, they need to be swum at a Pacific sanctioned meet and they are Pacific registered swimmers. The published list is not current at this time.

http://www.pacificmasters.org/comp/topten.shtml

Karen Duggan
April 7th, 2009, 12:20 PM
Hi Jim,
I'm not talking about the point tabs for SOTY. I'll never be eligible for that category! Just submitted meet times. I know I am right about times not counting outside of Pac sanctioned meets, as I addressed this about 10 years ago. No one could really come up with a good reason why, outside our LMSC, times don't count. (In fact, in the late 90s I couldn't swim in either of our TWO LCM that year so I went to SPMA champs and swam 11 events. All of those times were Top Ten USMS and would have been TT Pacific, but Pacific didn't recognize the times as they were outside of Pacific!
It looks like other LMSCs allow all swims, no matter where, to count in their tabulations. Good to know, so I can attend the May meeting with some information.
I think Pacific needs to have a rule change!

Thanks to everyone for your input : ]

chowmi
April 7th, 2009, 12:22 PM
I think all meets in the Gulf and NT regions are eligible. The issue that I am finding, is that often the meet coordinator doesn't bother to submit the times.

I was at a meet in SugarLand in January. They announced that a swimmer broke a WR and that the pool was re-measured...


2 months later none of the swims have shown up in the event ranking database and I can't get any emails to them returned!

North Texas does not keep a Top Ten List. I submit all NT's meets for national top ten consideration.

We have South Central Zone Meet Records, where anyone who swims at that meet can set a record. You can be from any LMSC but you have to do the swim at that specific meet (SCY LCM).

My suggestion to anyone wanting to see LMSC or other records - state your recommendation and then step up to the plate and do it.

jim clemmons
April 7th, 2009, 12:32 PM
Hi Jim,
I know I am right about times not counting outside of Pac sanctioned meets, as I addressed this about 10 years ago. No one could really come up with a good reason why, outside our LMSC, times don't count. (In fact, in the late 90s I couldn't swim in either of our TWO LCM that year so I went to SPMA champs and swam 11 events. All of those times were Top Ten USMS and would have been TT Pacific, but Pacific didn't recognize the times as they were outside of Pacific!


You're only referring to Pacific Top Ten, correct?

Pacific records can be set by Pacific swimmers in any USMS sanctioned meet - not necessarily at a Pacific meet.

ourswimmer
April 7th, 2009, 12:33 PM
Yes, they need to be swum at a Pacific sanctioned meet and they are Pacific registered swimmers. The published list is not current at this time.

http://www.pacificmasters.org/comp/topten.shtml

Thanks, Jim. These lists illustrate my second point: so many of them have fewer than ten names that it hardly seems worth the effort to compile or distribute them. You might sweep in a few more people (like Karen, in her late-90s example) by including non-Pacific meets, but it still would seem to me to be a low priority compared to, say, keeping the local records up to date or getting a few more LCM meets on the schedule in the first place.

jim clemmons
April 7th, 2009, 12:49 PM
Thanks, Jim. These lists illustrate my second point: so many of them have fewer than ten names that it hardly seems worth the effort to compile or distribute them. You might sweep in a few more people (like Karen, in her late-90s example) by including non-Pacific meets, but it still would seem to me to be a low priority compared to, say, keeping the local records up to date or getting a few more LCM meets on the schedule in the first place.

I think that if people aren't making the list when there are local meets to compete in, the numbers aren't probably going to go up significantly with meets-at-a-distance included, with the possible exception of Nat's. But, yes, it might get a couple more.

imspoiled
April 7th, 2009, 03:15 PM
Delaware Valey counts any meet that is sanctioned. The only caveat is you have to be registered and swum as a DV masters swimmer at the meet. i.e.- if you swim for a non-DV team at nationals those times will not count for DV top ten records.

Karen Duggan
April 7th, 2009, 03:17 PM
Jim
It was my understanding that records set, for example, at Nationals, do not count as PMS records. Because if they did, then Nationals times (swum at nationals) would be tabulated in the Pacific TT and they are not.
Nancy e-mailed me and said that it should be brought up at the May meeting (in person). I'll try to make that one to plead the case. Are you bringing High Tech by chance? :D

gobears
April 7th, 2009, 03:37 PM
I think all meets in the Gulf and NT regions are eligible. The issue that I am finding, is that often the meet coordinator doesn't bother to submit the times.

I was at a meet in SugarLand in January. They announced that a swimmer broke a WR and that the pool was re-measured...


2 months later none of the swims have shown up in the event ranking database and I can't get any emails to them returned!

I was at the same meet. I did get a response from someone a month or so ago who pointed me to a link for the results. Maybe they don't understand the difference between posting results to the meet and submitting them to USMS??? Maybe if we keep bothering them...

jim clemmons
April 7th, 2009, 03:54 PM
Jim
It was my understanding that records set, for example, at Nationals, do not count as PMS records. Because if they did, then Nationals times (swum at nationals) would be tabulated in the Pacific TT and they are not.
Nancy e-mailed me and said that it should be brought up at the May meeting (in person). I'll try to make that one to plead the case. Are you bringing High Tech by chance? :D

Records set anywhere count as PMS records if, in fact, they are faster than the current time standard and the meet is properly sanctioned. Hawaii '02 [I loved that meet], SPMA's, etc.

If Nat's are in the PMS region (De Anza '96, Santa Clara '01, Clovis '09) the times will also count towards PMS Top Ten. If outside the region, then they don't count towards TT but will count as records (if set).

Karen Duggan
April 7th, 2009, 04:06 PM
Hmmm, then not accepting times swum in other LMSCs, that are not records, makes NO sense. That's like saying, "Oh, yes, your time does count because it's a record, and no, yours doesn't, it wasn't fast enough!" How ridiculous.

Definitely needs some addressing.

Will you be at the May meeting Mr. C?

Chris Stevenson
April 7th, 2009, 05:31 PM
The issue that I am finding, is that often the meet coordinator doesn't bother to submit the times.

I was at a meet in SugarLand in January. They announced that a swimmer broke a WR and that the pool was re-measured...


2 months later none of the swims have shown up in the event ranking database and I can't get any emails to them returned!


I was at the same meet. I did get a response from someone a month or so ago who pointed me to a link for the results. Maybe they don't understand the difference between posting results to the meet and submitting them to USMS??? Maybe if we keep bothering them...

Just remember that "submitting them to USMS" means at least three different things, and they are not necessarily connected:

1. Applying for a USMS record (to Walt Reid) using the proper application form. This is the form that requires the pool to be re-measured (if it has a bulkhead).
2. Submitting the meet to the meet result database. This is what is used for the "Current Event Rankings." Not everyone submits meets to this. It doesn't have to be the meet director, the Top Ten Recorder can submit the results too if s/he has the MM file (presumably s/he does).
3. Submitting times (to Mary Beth Windrath) for USMS Top Ten Consideration. There are 3 deadlines for this, one for each course, and each LMSC should have a Top Ten Recorder who is responsible for doing this for all meets in the LMSC.

Just because a time doesn't appear in Current Event Rankings doesn't mean that #1 hasn't occured or that #3 won't occur. To check if Walt has processed the record, go to

http://www.usms.org/comp/usmsrecords.php

and see if the record appears. Records set since the last publication of the Rule Book will appear in grey.

jim clemmons
April 7th, 2009, 08:14 PM
Hmmm, then not accepting times swum in other LMSCs, that are not records, makes NO sense. That's like saying, "Oh, yes, your time does count because it's a record, and no, yours doesn't, it wasn't fast enough!" How ridiculous.

Definitely needs some addressing.

Will you be at the May meeting Mr. C?

It probably made sense at the time it was established for whatever the reason - maybe it'll still make sense when it gets explained again and maybe not.:D

Yes, I'm planning on being there.

chowmi
April 7th, 2009, 10:18 PM
Gulf may be looking for a top ten recorder. Check with Jill Gellatly (South Zone Chair) or the Boaks who know everything there is to know about USMS. I think Charge is in our LMSC; gobears where are you?

gobears
April 7th, 2009, 10:24 PM
Gulf may be looking for a top ten recorder. Check with Jill Gellatly (South Zone Chair) or the Boaks who know everything there is to know about USMS. I think Charge is in our LMSC; gobears where are you?

I'm in Gulf (though somehow I'm registered South Texas this year).

Charge
April 8th, 2009, 12:34 AM
Yes, I'm NT. The meet I can't get a response to was in Gulf. NT results are always reported quickly, great job Michelle!

gobears- I have sent a half-dozen emails with the link to the portion of the USMS website detailing how to submit for event ranking.

I never even get a response.

Glider
April 8th, 2009, 11:29 AM
I've done this before: Check the original meet information sheet which usually includes the meet director's name, email, and phone (at least here in GA.) If the phone is listed, let the harassing calls begin...

Once you get the director on the phone, then you can outline the different meet result submission scenarios, explain the exact process to submit results to the meet db, create a little urgency, and ask for a commitment on a date to get it done.

Some people just don't do well with email.


Yes, I'm NT. The meet I can't get a response to was in Gulf. NT results are always reported quickly, great job Michelle!

gobears- I have sent a half-dozen emails with the link to the portion of the USMS website detailing how to submit for event ranking.

I never even get a response.

gobears
April 8th, 2009, 03:59 PM
Yes, I'm NT. The meet I can't get a response to was in Gulf. NT results are always reported quickly, great job Michelle!

gobears- I have sent a half-dozen emails with the link to the portion of the USMS website detailing how to submit for event ranking.

I never even get a response.

I just emailed again yesterday (the contact link on the FCST site) and received this response:


Hi Amy, I have sent this request to our head masters coach. Thanks so much.

****** *******
FCST Finance Manager

Knowing how some coaches are (and I am one--but probably more administratively oriented than most) the request may or may not ever be seen. I think Glider's harassing phone calls to the meet director idea might be more effective!:applaud:

gobears
April 8th, 2009, 04:13 PM
I've just fired off an email to Valerie Wolterman (whose email address was on the FCST meet info). I'll let you know if she responds. :)

jroddin
April 9th, 2009, 12:25 PM
First, let me just say I've only skimmed this thread. I am an LMSC Top Ten recorder so the title caught my eye.

I don't believe Pacific is doing anything unusual or unfair here.

The Pacific Top Ten recorder is responsible for submitting its Top Ten to USMS at the conclusion of each season. Note they are only responsible for submitting times done at sanctioned/recognized swims within their LMSC. This also includes sending in times from swimmers registered outside Pacific but who competed in meets within Pacific.

The Pacific records are something different. Like Virginia, it sounds like to be eligible for a record you have to be a registered Pacific swimmer but your times can come from sanctioned/recognized meets anywhere (e.g. Nationals). Therefore if you do the time outside the LMSC confines, the onus is on you to submit your time for record consideration.

Now back to the Pacific Top Ten - it sounds like these are only times done within the LMSC. So it doesn't make sense for Mrs. Duggan to do a time in an SPMA meet and submit it for Pacific Top Ten because the time was done outside Pacific. Of course if the time is a record, then it should get submitted.

Jeff Roddin
Potomac Valley LMSC Top Ten recorder

jim clemmons
April 9th, 2009, 03:47 PM
First, let me just say I've only skimmed this thread. I am an LMSC Top Ten recorder so the title caught my eye.

I don't believe Pacific is doing anything unusual or unfair here.

The Pacific Top Ten recorder is responsible for submitting its Top Ten to USMS at the conclusion of each season. Note they are only responsible for submitting times done at sanctioned/recognized swims within their LMSC. This also includes sending in times from swimmers registered outside Pacific but who competed in meets within Pacific.

The Pacific records are something different. Like Virginia, it sounds like to be eligible for a record you have to be a registered Pacific swimmer but your times can come from sanctioned/recognized meets anywhere (e.g. Nationals). Therefore if you do the time outside the LMSC confines, the onus is on you to submit your time for record consideration.

Now back to the Pacific Top Ten - it sounds like these are only times done within the LMSC. So it doesn't make sense for Mrs. Duggan to do a time in an SPMA meet and submit it for Pacific Top Ten because the time was done outside Pacific. Of course if the time is a record, then it should get submitted.

Jeff Roddin
Potomac Valley LMSC Top Ten recorder

Jeff,

From my understanding, that's about as accurate as one can describe it.

Karen Duggan
April 9th, 2009, 04:08 PM
Which I guess, after getting more info from Jim, my point is this:
Why should only record setting times count in Pacific? We do have a Top Ten list in Pacific. Nancy Ridout is absolutely phenomenal about making sure that our times are accurate and submitted.

If anyone in Pacific swims in other meets outside our LMSC, I think those times should count in the Top Ten for Pacific (they already do for USMS).

I guess what made me think of all this is that we have ONE long course meet this year in Pacific. So if people want to break records, etc. they will have to go elsewhere if they want more than one chance.

jim clemmons
April 9th, 2009, 04:17 PM
I guess what made me think of all this is that we have ONE long course meet this year in Pacific. So if people want to break records, etc. they will have to go elsewhere if they want more than one chance.

But that's true regardless of PA Top Ten consideration; and no matter where they swim, if they break a PA record, it will count...as a record...and perhaps as a USMS Top Ten when it's all said and done.

Karen Duggan
April 9th, 2009, 04:57 PM
I understand what you're saying about records. I get that they count no matter where they are swum. I'm just talking about regular 'ol swims. I want them to count in in the PMS TT even if they are swum outside of Pacific.

I was just mentioning that we only have one meet as people may want more than one chance at making TT and at breaking records. And the only way for that to happen is to swim out of a Pac sanctioned meet.

jim clemmons
April 9th, 2009, 05:26 PM
I understand what you're saying about records. I get that they count no matter where they are swum. I'm just talking about regular 'ol swims. I want them to count in in the PMS TT even if they are swum outside of Pacific.

I was just mentioning that we only have one meet as people may want more than one chance at making TT and at breaking records. And the only way for that to happen is to swim out of a Pac sanctioned meet.

Hopefully, Michael and Nancy can enlighten us at the May meeting.

Also, there was a rumor going around that Burlingame (Scott) might put on a LC meet but I haven't heard anything for awhile now about that still possibly happening.

Karen Duggan
April 9th, 2009, 06:50 PM
I think they put a meet on at the last minute last year. I was glad to see Scott at USF. I thought he was gone completely from masters, turns out just
from the Oly Club. Phew. I like him a lot. :agree:

WCM would be happy to have a LC meet, we did for years, except we have now been told that it's not safe to dive in that course! I guess it was safe for the first 25 years, but suddenly not now.

Hopefully, with A LOT of work, we'll be getting a new state of the art aquatic center in the next several years. If the city can spend upwards of $15m for a library it doesn't need, and not too many people use, I think an aquatic center should be a no-brainer. Our pool is full almost every day. It's hard to even find parking anymore. :blah: Got myself started!

jim clemmons
April 9th, 2009, 07:07 PM
WCM would be happy to have a LC meet, we did for years, except we have now been told that it's not safe to dive in that course! I guess it was safe for the first 25 years, but suddenly not now.

Got the same thing at work. We have a building with a "device" located in it. Building's been in existence for 25+ years with insurance folks and facility auditors crawling thru it a couple of times a year, both groups trying to make sure we're all "safe" ('cause everyone knows we can't take care of ourselves, I guess). All of a sudden, one of the auditors notices we don't have lighted "exit" signage over the three personnel doors. Have to stop everything and install the dang things. Thing is we take fast photos of some of the goings-on inside the stoopid building and the light would interfere with the shots. So I gotta get switched (on/off) exit signs that we can turn off as long as we verify Elvis has left the building (nobody's inside). Dumb thing is, that no one can be in the building during a test otherwise they'll have only a few days of life left if a shot occurs and they're not "protected" and we have procedures in place that make sure that particular circumstance doesn't occur.

Anyway, only way I can figure out why we haven't killed someone because we didn't have the signs up is sheer, dumb luck. Doh. NOT!

Wow, I guess I got a little off topic. Oops.

Karen Duggan
April 10th, 2009, 11:22 AM
Uh, Jim, what exactly do you do for a living?

Are you receiving some kind of "waves" at work that help make you so speedy?! :)

jim clemmons
April 10th, 2009, 12:41 PM
Uh, Jim, what exactly do you do for a living?



25 years operations manager here: http://www.titanpsd.com/html/AboutHistory.htm

Karen Duggan
April 10th, 2009, 01:26 PM
Wow.
That's impressive.
Thanks for all you do there for us (most of which I'm sure I have no idea about!).

I asked Kerry where we were for entries for PAs. He said we were at 7hundred something yesterday. We might make 800.