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smontanaro
April 18th, 2009, 12:19 PM
It appears the Hy-Tek live scoreboard thingamabob for the IL state meet is still not working. Since I'm back in front of a computer for a bit I thought I'd mention there was a tie in the men's 100 free this morning. Terry Silkaitis held off Vlad Pyshnenko over the last 25 yards. The two finished tied at 44.24. It was an impressive swim by both men.

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KEWebb18
April 18th, 2009, 12:21 PM
What age group?

smontanaro
April 18th, 2009, 01:14 PM
Terry is 25, Vlad is 39.

pwb
April 18th, 2009, 01:28 PM
Terry is 25, Vlad is 39.

That's an impressive time @ any age, but incredible @ 39!

smontanaro
April 18th, 2009, 01:33 PM
He does have the background to go that fast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Pyshnenko

ehoch
April 18th, 2009, 01:34 PM
I am sure he is a nice guy and all - but I have a zero tolerance for doping + a lifetime ban ...

Vlad and his wife Natalia Mesheryakova tested positive for anabolic steroids in 1997. They and another Russian swimmer claimed they were tricked into eating a cake laced with steroids, but their claims were rejected by the International Doping Agency. All three received a two year suspension from FINA competitions.

pwb
April 18th, 2009, 01:37 PM
I am sure he is a nice guy and all - but I have a zero tolerance for doping + a lifetime ban ...

Vlad and his wife Natalia Mesheryakova tested positive for anabolic steroids in 1997. They and another Russian swimmer claimed they were tricked into eating a cake laced with steroids, but their claims were rejected by the International Doping Agency. All three received a two year suspension from FINA competitions.

Ouch ... I wasn't aware

smontanaro
April 18th, 2009, 01:41 PM
Nor was I until I googled him and found the Wikipedia page.

White Buffalo
April 18th, 2009, 03:59 PM
I guess Russians and Germans don't play well together.
WB

ehoch
April 18th, 2009, 07:22 PM
Does not really matter where he or she is from --- I would have the same issue if Marion Jones would start posting fast times in track again - does not really matter if it is Masters or Open competition.

NKMD
April 18th, 2009, 07:38 PM
Vlad has been drug tested recently and has been proven clean. Please do not blast anyone until you get the facts straight. He is a great coach and talented swimmer.

ehoch
April 18th, 2009, 08:14 PM
Vlad has been drug tested recently and has been proven clean. Please do not blast anyone until you get the facts straight. He is a great coach and talented swimmer.

Why would he be drug tested ???

Facts ? -- the fact is that he was caught and banned for 2 years. The fact is that he could not even be honest about it and made up some crazy story.

Just because somebody is a nice guy, that does not make it right. He went to the Olympics and won medals by cheating -- you have to kidding me. Do you really believe the cake story ???

People like you enable the cheaters to get away with it.

stillwater
April 18th, 2009, 08:42 PM
The fact is he was caught and punished by the people that mete out punishments.

He served his time for the crime.


People like you enable the cheaters to get away with it.

People like you make me shake my head.

lefty
April 18th, 2009, 08:53 PM
It is a fair point that Ehoch makes, but at the same time he did serve a suspension for what he did there isn't really anything else for him to do. Lifetime ban? I guess I can buy into that, but that sure as heck shouldn't preclude him from swimming Masters.

ehoch
April 18th, 2009, 09:03 PM
Of course you can't preclude him from Masters -- but I don't buy that he served his "time".

Ask yourself this - do you believe he was clean when winning multiple Olympic medals ?

He still has his medals and now coaches kids -- he got caught late in his career and it really made no difference on his swimming. The rules are clear, but that does not mean we have to like them --- yes - lifetime ban on intentional use is the only way to go PLUS taking all past medals away.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 18th, 2009, 09:19 PM
Athletes and coaches have been cheating with drugs for years.

When I was a teenager, I watched my swimming hero, Shirley Babashoff cheated out of her Olympic Gold Medals and experienced the injustice for the first time. Still sadly unresolved.

I think its amusing people believe age-group athletes do not cheat or have any reason to do this kind of thing.
Its simple... egos are huge.

Perhaps Vlad has been drug tested because of his history and thats cool. Thanks Nadine. Good to know the facts from all sides.

But in general, amateur athletes are not being tested.
There is no doubt performance enhancing drugs are out there, accessible, and can easily be used by others beside the professionals and Olympian athletes.

My sports are swimming, triathlon, and running.
On the honor system.
So ultimately, accept that the reward is individual progress and fitness.

lefty
April 20th, 2009, 09:47 AM
I think its amusing people believe age-group athletes do not cheat or have any reason to do this kind of thing.


really. Then consider yourself amused. In Texas the UIL tested (~)10,000 HS football players and found maybe 10 kids taking steroids. Hardly widespread (thank goodness). Many states simply quit testing HS kids because the numbers were so low.

Ahelee Sue Osborn
April 20th, 2009, 11:23 AM
really. Then consider yourself amused. In Texas the UIL tested (~)10,000 HS football players and found maybe 10 kids taking steroids. Hardly widespread (thank goodness). Many states simply quit testing HS kids because the numbers were so low.

This is a bright piece of good news - thank you!

But actually, I was referring to adult age-group athletes since this is a masters forum.

I couldn't comment on the activity of ball sport athletes since I have zero experience dealing with them.

JimRude
April 20th, 2009, 11:28 AM
Why would he be drug tested ???

Facts ? -- the fact is that he was caught and banned for 2 years. The fact is that he could not even be honest about it and made up some crazy story.

Just because somebody is a nice guy, that does not make it right. He went to the Olympics and won medals by cheating -- you have to kidding me. Do you really believe the cake story ???

People like you enable the cheaters to get away with it.

As the saying goes, "once a cheater, always a cheater". IMHO 2 years is not enough. Lifetime ban for knowingly cheating/doping...

Crazyman
April 20th, 2009, 12:24 PM
It would be nice to see race between Vlad and Rowdy in Clovis. Hope they make appears there.

Tom McCabe
April 20th, 2009, 04:29 PM
I am sure he is a nice guy and all - but I have a zero tolerance for doping + a lifetime ban ...

Vlad and his wife Natalia Mesheryakova tested positive for anabolic steroids in 1997. They and another Russian swimmer claimed they were tricked into eating a cake laced with steroids, but their claims were rejected by the International Doping Agency. All three received a two year suspension from FINA competitions.

I don't know the cake story you are referring to but, being duped by a coach is plausible. After all, Mr. Madoff duped a large number of very smart people with large aspirations. It's human nature to put faith in other people who are perceived to be experts at what they do

lefty
April 20th, 2009, 04:58 PM
But actually, I was referring to adult age-group athletes since this is a masters forum.

The confusion is because the term "age group swimming" generally refers to swimmers under the age of 19. But I get your point and Ithink you are right. There is "cheating" in Masters swimming. This discussion was brought up once before and a couple of people, myself included, think that if you want to use steroids and swim master, go right ahead. It is only yourself that you are cheating. Stupid is as stupid does.

lefty
April 20th, 2009, 05:01 PM
As the saying goes, "once a cheater, always a cheater".

My Judeo-Christian ethics think that statement is a complete falsity.

coachvlad
April 20th, 2009, 05:20 PM
Hey guys!
It is really interesting to read about yourself in the forums like this! I've learned a lot about my past here! NICE!!!
If you were swimmers at any level higher then Junior Varsity in High School, then you would know that anti doping agency constantly testing you!
Just at 1992 Olympic games in Barcelona - I was tested 4 or 5 times (almost after each race)
96 Olympics in Atlanta same thing...

JimRude said: “As the saying goes, "once a cheater, always a cheater". IMHO 2 years is not enough. Lifetime ban for knowingly cheating/doping...”
Jim, are you saying this based on you own experience???

Because after that story in 1997 I’m afraid to take AllegraD (I have huge allergies…especially during the summer), but I heave to deal with runny nose and itchy eyes without all those Antihistamine things :(

And BTW White Buffalo – I’m American Citizen (and I’m proud of it)…I can not trust the country that I grow up at and swam for!!!

I’m working out 7 days a week now! Running every day 5 miles + lifting weights + swimming! I feel…and I think that I look better then at age 20!

I swim not only masters meets…I swim all the USA swimming meets too :)
I like it!

I’m not going to Clovis! I would LOVE to, but we already made plans to go on vacation next week…so, there is no point for me to go to the meet and swim poorly after the vacation :)
I'm also want to go to Masters World Championship next year (I'll turn 40 and can swim 40-45 age group)

Crazyman
April 20th, 2009, 05:33 PM
Hey guys!
It is really interesting to read about yourself in the forums like this! I've learned a lot about my past here! NICE!!!
If you were swimmers at any level higher then Junior Varsity in High School, then you would know that anti doping agency constantly testing you!
Just at 1992 Olympic games in Barcelona - I was tested 4 or 5 times (almost after each race)
96 Olympics in Atlanta same thing...

JimRude said: “As the saying goes, "once a cheater, always a cheater". IMHO 2 years is not enough. Lifetime ban for knowingly cheating/doping...”
Jim, are you saying this based on you own experience???

Because after that story in 1997 I’m afraid to take AllegraD (I have huge allergies…especially during the summer), but I heave to deal with runny nose and itchy eyes without all those Antihistamine things :(

And BTW White Buffalo – I’m American Citizen (and I’m proud of it)…I can not trust the country that I grow up at and swam for!!!

I’m working out 7 days a week now! Running every day 5 miles + lifting weights + swimming! I feel…and I think that I look better then at age 20!

I swim not only masters meets…I swim all the USA swimming meets too :)
I like it!

I’m not going to Clovis! I would LOVE to, but we already made plans to go on vacation next week…so, there is no point for me to go to the meet and swim poorly after the vacation :)
I'm also want to go to Masters World Championship next year (I'll turn 40 and can swim 40-45 age group)
Vlad, i recall you in 1996 when my young brother and myself watched Summer Olympic while living in Germany at this time. I perfectly remember how you swam, and even we videotaped this :)
Regardless next year, well you will be in my age group, which makes me proud to swim next to you by chance :)
Anyway, good luck and i'm impressive about your lifestyle and training on daily basic.

JimRude
April 20th, 2009, 05:38 PM
Hey guys!
JimRude said: “As the saying goes, "once a cheater, always a cheater". IMHO 2 years is not enough. Lifetime ban for knowingly cheating/doping...”
Jim, are you saying this based on you own experience???


Nothing personal, Vlad...

Nope, that is a quote from some movie about boyfriends and girlfriends... but I thought it tied in nicely with ehoch's comment about lifetime bans for doping - which I agree 100% with.

For the last 25 years, virtually every athlete that has been caught doping blames it on the coaches, on their OTC med's, etc - swimmers, cyclists, etc.

When is someone going to stand up and admit "yeah, I tried to cheat and got caught. My bad."?

The difficulty lies in trying to distinguish accidental dopers from intentional ones. This can be subjective, and that's a problem. I am 100% behind lifetime bans (for all future national, international, masters, senior games, gay games, maccabiah games, etc) for intentional cheaters. For accidental's, I am open to suggestions.

But surely you'll admit that, given that there have been few if any admitted dopers, it's a bit of a stretch to believe everyone who says "my Claritin did it"?

coachvlad
April 20th, 2009, 05:50 PM
Hey CrazyMan,
That would be great to swim at same age group :)

And JimRude...I don't take anything personally...so, no worries!!!
Those 2 years (originally suppose to be 4 years) they were lifetime suspension! I never competed for Russia after that! Didn't swim for many years...now I'm back in the water, cause swimming it's like Mac (once you go Mac, you never go back) :applaud:

ehoch
April 20th, 2009, 05:58 PM
Just at 1992 Olympic games in Barcelona - I was tested 4 or 5 times (almost after each race)
96 Olympics in Atlanta same thing...


That does take the "cake" -- how stupid do you think we are. No East-German athlete EVER tested positive -- so you can take your "tests" from your Olympics along with your medals and be very "proud".

Nice for you to say that you were tested instead of saying that you never used performance enhancing drugs. Exactly how many times did the Russian anti-doping agency test you prior to those Olympics -- oh no, I forgot, that agency actually did not exist. I am guessing the officials just made sure you did not test positive at the actual games.

Ahelee is quite correct - we compete on the honor system and you simply don't have it. So while I may see you at some of the meets and may be in the same age-group and race, I will never actually compete against you.

lefty
April 20th, 2009, 06:00 PM
That does take the "cake" -- how stupid do you think we are. No East-German athlete EVER tested positive -- so you can take your "tests" from your Olympics along with your medals and be very "proud".

Nice for you to say that you were tested instead of saying that you never used performance enhancing drugs. Exactly how many times did the Russian anti-doping agency test you prior to those Olympics -- oh no, I forgot, that agency actually did not exist. I am guessing the officials just made sure you did not test positive at the actual games.

Ahelee is quite correct - we compete on the honor system and you simply don't have it. So while I may see you at some of the meets and may be in the same age-group and race, I will never actually compete against you.


Seriously I give you credit for not being two faced about this...

coachvlad
April 20th, 2009, 06:06 PM
enoch,
Why are you sooo aggressive?
Zigmund Freud said once: "Aggressiveness is a sign of sexual dissatisfaction"
I know that you never going to compete against me...and I'm OK with that :)

ehoch
April 20th, 2009, 06:07 PM
Saw an article about a British sprinter in the LA Times this weekend - sounded familiar -- here is how the Brits are handling it right now:

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jul/19/sports/sp-britrun19

Lifetime Olympic ban -- that is at least a start.

For you others out there, go cheer on Arod and all the football players. How about a race between Marion Jones and Ben Johnson.

ehoch
April 20th, 2009, 06:14 PM
Vlad -- it's ehoch and not enoch.

I am not being aggressive, I am just telling you how I see it. You may not be used that. I am probably just a little more "exposed" to the issue, since my country so cheerfully united with an entire team of drug cheats while I was still competing.

While we are having a conversation -- did you take performance enhancing drugs in your training for the Olympics ?

The Fortress
April 20th, 2009, 06:17 PM
Seriously I give you credit for not being two faced about this...

I agree with ehoch. No matter what a great guy Vlad is now, and I don't doubt it, the cake story is a crock.

coachvlad
April 20th, 2009, 06:22 PM
Vlad -- it's ehoch and not enoch.

I am not being aggressive, I am just telling you how I see it. You may not be used that. I am probably just a little more "exposed" to the issue, since my country so cheerfully united with an entire team of drug cheats while I was still competing.

While we are having a conversation -- did you take performance enhancing drugs in your training for the Olympics ?

Sorry ehoc!
And here is the answer for your last question: NO! I didn't take any drugs in my training for the Olympics!!!

ehoch
April 20th, 2009, 06:50 PM
Thanks for the answer -- I do appreciate it, but you will have to understand my sceptical mind when I know this to be true. By the way - this makes me so sad, because it basically discredits one of my all-time swimming heroes - Salnikov...

"It has long been known by those familiar with communist sport that drug taking was organized at the top and that no athlete was allowed overseas unless he or she had a clearance test before departing. At the Olympics of Montreal and Seoul, it has now been revealed, the Soviet squad had a “hospitality” boat used as a medical centre to ensure that Soviet competitors were at least “clean” at the last moment.34
The Soviet coach Sergei Vaichekovsky, who was in charge of Soviet swimming
from 1973 to 1982, admitted that the use of drugs was widespread: “From 1974 all Soviet swimmers were using banned substances. I’ve personally administered the drugs and advised swimmers individually on how to avoid getting caught.” He indicated that while the East German method was to give drugs during periods of intensive training, which for swimmers usually comes at the start of the year, Soviet competitors took them for longer durations, usually to within a month of major
meetings.

Source: http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/Olympika/Olympika_1993/olympika0201c.pdf

coachvlad
April 20th, 2009, 06:59 PM
Thanks for the answer -- I do appreciate it, but you will have to understand my sceptical mind when I know this to be true. By the way - this makes me so sad, because it basically discredits one of my all-time swimming heroes - Salnikov...

"It has long been known by those familiar with communist sport that drug taking was organized at the top and that no athlete was allowed overseas unless he or she had a clearance test before departing. At the Olympics of Montreal and Seoul, it has now been revealed, the Soviet squad had a “hospitality” boat used as a medical centre to ensure that Soviet competitors were at least “clean” at the last moment.34
The Soviet coach Sergei Vaichekovsky, who was in charge of Soviet swimming
from 1973 to 1982, admitted that the use of drugs was widespread: “From 1974 all Soviet swimmers were using banned substances. I’ve personally administered the drugs and advised swimmers individually on how to avoid getting caught.” He indicated that while the East German method was to give drugs during periods of intensive training, which for swimmers usually comes at the start of the year, Soviet competitors took them for longer durations, usually to within a month of major
meetings.

Source: http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/Olympika/Olympika_1993/olympika0201c.pdf

ehoch,
I completely understand your sceptical mind...you have to grow up in USSR in the order to understand the system!
Nice thing for me that I made USSR nationals team in 1990...and 1991 everything fall apart! I don't even want to know what would happened to me if I swim under that "system" longer :(
Vladimir Salnikov is a great guy (I know him personally)...he was my hero when I was little!!! He is still involved with All-Russian Swimming Federation (he is the Vice President).

Maui Mike
April 20th, 2009, 09:55 PM
This is a fascinating exchange! And Vlad, good luck to you.

coachvlad
April 20th, 2009, 11:49 PM
This is a fascinating exchange! And Vlad, good luck to you.

Mike,
Thank you so much for support!

My wife, I and our daughter - US Citizens! And we are happy here! I didn't go back to Russia since I moved here (10 years ago)

Maui Mike
April 21st, 2009, 12:46 AM
Mike,
Thank you so much for support!

My wife, I and our daughter - US Citizens! And we are happy here! I didn't go back to Russia since I moved here (10 years ago)

Congratulations! I've never lived in any other country but I know I love this one. Immigration and the infusion of people from many lands has always been a big plus.
(Hope I didn't break the forum "no politics" rule here ---)

Charge
April 21st, 2009, 07:44 AM
You guys are acting like he's a dirty swimmer infiltrating a clean sport. When in reality maybe neither one is true?

Maybe he's now clean, but maybe master's swimming isn't? How do you know the guy next to you isn't doping?

KEWebb18
April 21st, 2009, 08:06 AM
I think that most people would like to believe that masters swimmers are clean. But if you think about it, with nothing to keep people from doing something, they probably would use some performance-enhancing drugs. My years working with collegiate athletes has shown me that you can never be to sure who the ones are who are doing it--the NCAA tests but everyone thinks that they will never get tested. I would hate to see a time when the masters swimming community gets rid of the "honor system" and has to drug test athletes like the USOC or FINA.

That being said, why are we all getting on Vlad? What about the other guy? Is HE clean?

aquageek
April 21st, 2009, 09:41 AM
America is the land of second chances, at least. Forgive but maybe don't forget and move on with that knowledge.

Chris Stevenson
April 21st, 2009, 09:55 AM
I think that most people would like to believe that masters swimmers are clean. But if you think about it, with nothing to keep people from doing something, they probably would use some performance-enhancing drugs. My years working with collegiate athletes has shown me that you can never be to sure who the ones are who are doing it--the NCAA tests but everyone thinks that they will never get tested.

Well, that's depressing to think about...but I'm having a hard time seeing the payoff. What exactly do you get from being a "successful" masters swimmer (whatever that means)?

From a strictly rational viewpoint, not considering ethics at all -- in other words, acting like a typical economist :) -- I'm seeing the (health) risks and few benefits.

I'm sure there are some who need the ego boost the greater performance could bring. But I still think the payoffs are much less than at the college level.

Vlad, one thing I'm having trouble with in your posts was your statement that going on vacation meant you had to give up on Clovis. In masters, some of my most successful tapers have been "vacation tapers!"

KEWebb18
April 21st, 2009, 10:05 AM
Well, that's depressing to think about...but I'm having a hard time seeing the payoff. What exactly do you get from being a "successful" masters swimmer (whatever that means)?

I'm sure there are some who need the ego boost the greater performance could bring. But I still think the payoffs are much less than at the college level.

It is depressing... I totally agree that it would be mostly an ego boost. To be able to tell people that you are #1 in your event? Not that the typical population would care, but I sure that you could earn some compliments from your training group, family members, other people in the masters swimming community.

I personally am not a "successful" masters swimmer (if that means top 10 times, national and/or world records) so I am not sure if I know what one would get out of using something to enhance performance at this level (other than ego boost). What I do know is that while most people take the straight path--hard work and dedication to their sport--there are always a group of people who want to slide through the easy way no matter what they are trying to accomplish.

ehoch
April 21st, 2009, 11:12 AM
That being said, why are we all getting on Vlad? What about the other guy? Is HE clean?

We - or at least me - is getting on Vlad, because in my opinion, he won several Olympic medals while using performance enhancing drugs and he still will not come "clean" about it. I just have a problem with this.

In doping, you will almost never be able to prove anything, you can only connect the dots. Here are the dots:

- all Soviet National Team swimmers were doping till at least the 1988 games -- they had a boat at the freaking games to make sure that they were not testing positive. Now at that time our friend here was probably already on the National youth team - he was 18.
- the Unified Team had their best Olympics ever in Men's swimming (except for 1980 of course) at the 1992 games.
- the "system" changed, but not everything fell apart right away -- I know the East-Germans still had plenty of extra benefits and "fuel" after the Wall came down.
- our friend here was caught in 1997 - silly him went outside of Russia to train and got caught.

Now you can tell me all about that they did not have a choice and may not have known everything they took - but when I connect the dots, I have no doubt.

coachvlad
April 21st, 2009, 01:10 PM
Hey guys,
I don't think that my swimming now has anything to do with ego boost!!!
And of course I'm not swimming for myself (maybe a little :))!

I'm swimming for that positiveness (on most part) from parents/swimmers/masters swimmers or just friends!
Having goals - that's what motivates me to get in every single day in the water!
Short term goal - 200 Free National record for my age group! Why? I don't know...just goal :)
Longer goal - would like to go to Masters World Championship next year (I'll turn 40, so it will be fun to swim 40-45 age group)
And lastly - would LOVE to make Olympic Trials cut at age 42!!!
All this not for money or boosting my ego (I can probably find different ways to boost that ego)

Chris Stevenson "Vlad, one thing I'm having trouble with in your posts was your statement that going on vacation meant you had to give up on Clovis. In masters, some of my most successful tapers have been "vacation tapers!"
Chris, about "vacation taper" I never tried this, but being swimming coach for so many years I know that after one week of ALL INCLUSIVE DEAL, I'm not going to fit in that TITAN suit size 28 anymore :)

I wish everyone luck at Masters Nationals!

thewookiee
April 21st, 2009, 02:16 PM
Vlad,

While I have never met you, I do remember watching you swim the 4x200 relay at the 1992 Olympics on tv.The thing that struck me the most about you, was how smooth your freestyle was at that meet. I still have tapes of that meet, watch them from time to time and still amazed at the strokes of you and sadovyi(sp?)
While I don't know the details of what happened in your past, I do know that it is in your past. I hope to be able to see you swim at a meet one day and meet you in person.
Good Luck with your swimming present and future.

John

pwb
April 21st, 2009, 02:23 PM
I'm fervently anti-doping, but agree wholeheartedly with geek and wookie:


America is the land of second chances, at least. Forgive but maybe don't forget and move on with that knowledge.



While I don't know the details of what happened in your past, I do know that it is in your past. I hope to be able to see you swim at a meet one day and meet you in person.
Good Luck with your swimming present and future.


As to whether or not USMS members are doping, I imagine some are (but my wife says I'm very cynical). Like Chris, I don't see the rationale/payoff, but I've read too many articles about adult, weekend warriors seeking an "edge" in various other sports to be naive enough to believe it's not happening in our fair sport. I certainly believe it is miniscule, but there nonetheless.

coachvlad
April 21st, 2009, 03:11 PM
Vlad,

While I have never met you, I do remember watching you swim the 4x200 relay at the 1992 Olympics on tv.The thing that struck me the most about you, was how smooth your freestyle was at that meet. I still have tapes of that meet, watch them from time to time and still amazed at the strokes of you and sadovyi(sp?)
While I don't know the details of what happened in your past, I do know that it is in your past. I hope to be able to see you swim at a meet one day and meet you in person.
Good Luck with your swimming present and future.

John

John,
This is the one more reason why I swim now! This positive atmosphere in US...just amazing!!!
Thank you!

Jazz Hands
April 21st, 2009, 03:11 PM
As to whether or not USMS members are doping, I imagine some are (but my wife says I'm very cynical). Like Chris, I don't see the rationale/payoff, but I've read too many articles about adult, weekend warriors seeking an "edge" in various other sports to be naive enough to believe it's not happening in our fair sport. I certainly believe it is miniscule, but there nonetheless.

I would bet that a lot of older men in USMS are doing this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Androgen_replacement_therapy

Tim L
April 21st, 2009, 03:17 PM
This is a great thread. Vlad certainly seems like a nice guy and you have to like his dedication to our sport through his coaching and his friendly posts about a difficult subject. It is easy to forgive him and I wish him the best in the future. This is masters swimming after all.

However, I have a hard time disagreeing with ehoch. I really wish they would have stricter penalties for steroids and similar banned substances. If you are caught for something like steroids, it really should be a lifetime ban and all prior accomplishments should be stricken from the record including relays and medals returned. It is difficult for me to believe that steroid use is a one time event and not a pattern.

I would love to see ehoch and Vlad swim the 200 free at nationals next year.

Tim

ourswimmer
April 21st, 2009, 03:48 PM
It is difficult for me to believe that steroid use is a one time event and not a pattern.

Agreed, although it is easy for me to believe that someone who had used knowingly for years could think better of it, for whatever reason, and stop. It's even easy for me to believe that such a person could regret sincerely ever having used in the first place, and could use that experience to become a great person and a great coach.

The thing that is difficult for me to believe is that someone in middle age who spent his or her youth training with the aid of anabolic steroids is not still reaping the benefit of that doping, no matter how clean he or she is today. Certainly people who spent their teens and twenties doing national- or world-class training without drugs are still reaping the benefits of that youthful training in their thirties and forties. If the training was better because of the drugs, couldn't the residual effect of that training 15 or 20 years later also be better?

aquageek
April 21st, 2009, 04:06 PM
My understanding is that their is zero residual effect from PEDs, especially decade(s) later. If the assertion is that because of PEDs a person was able to train harder and thus will see a lifetime benefit as a result of harder training, I'm not sure about that and it's an interesting point. However, I've never seen any assertion that dopers train harder than non-dopers. Very intriguing points.

ourswimmer
April 21st, 2009, 04:22 PM
If the assertion is that because of PEDs a person was able to train harder and thus will see a lifetime benefit as a result of harder training, I'm not sure about that and it's an interesting point.

It's really more of a question than an assertion, because I have no idea as to what is the biologically correct answer, but you have understood my point accurately. I don't suspect that the drug effects themselves persist for anabolic steroids any more than they would for, say, amphetamines, just that the muscles you build persist somewhat no matter how you built them. I dd not originate this theory by any means; I've read it about several extremely successful middle-aged athletes.

Tim L
April 21st, 2009, 04:31 PM
Agreed, although it is easy for me to believe that someone who had used knowingly for years could think better of it, for whatever reason, and stop. It's even easy for me to believe that such a person could regret sincerely ever having used in the first place, and could use that experience to become a great person and a great coach.

The thing that is difficult for me to believe is that someone in middle age who spent his or her youth training with the aid of anabolic steroids is not still reaping the benefit of that doping, no matter how clean he or she is today. Certainly people who spent their teens and twenties doing national- or world-class training without drugs are still reaping the benefits of that youthful training in their thirties and forties. If the training was better because of the drugs, couldn't the residual effect of that training 15 or 20 years later also be better?

I totally agree with your first paragraph.

On the second paragraph, does it matter to us in masters swimming? It might be possible to have a positive or negative residual impact. I am willing to let it go in masters swimming.

Tim

Mswimming
April 21st, 2009, 04:40 PM
My understanding is that their is zero residual effect from PEDs, especially decade(s) later. If the assertion is that because of PEDs a person was able to train harder and thus will see a lifetime benefit as a result of harder training, I'm not sure about that and it's an interesting point. However, I've never seen any assertion that dopers train harder than non-dopers. Very intriguing points.

I think major league baseball holds some of these answers. From what I understand HGH was popular because it allowed them to retain more of the gains than steriods alone. The other key to the PED's with guys like clemens and bonds is that it allowed them to train harder and recover faster.

As for the residual effects of a doper 15-20 years later, I would imagine those would be more of the negative side effects rather than performance enhancing.

mctrusty
April 21st, 2009, 04:44 PM
It's really more of a question than an assertion, because I have no idea as to what is the biologically correct answer, but you have understood my point accurately. I don't suspect that the drug effects themselves persist for anabolic steroids any more than they would for, say, amphetamines, just that the muscles you build persist somewhat no matter how you built them. I dd not originate this theory by any means; I've read it about several extremely successful middle-aged athletes.

It makes a certain amount of sense. I like the bank analogy for sporting success later in life: many (but not all) successful older athletes spent a lot of time training and put a lot in the bank as youths. So they have more to draw on as an older athlete.

If you come up with a way to illegally grow that bank account for a few years as a youth and inflate it to greater size, it makes sense that you could potentially have more of an account to withdraw from later in life.

But that's where the analogy sort of breaks down. You can be made to give the money back if you get caught stealing (once, when I was 5...) The training bank has potentially conferred physiological benefit that can't really be given back in the same way. Of course, it could also have given you moobs and a raging case of cancer later in life.

ourswimmer
April 21st, 2009, 04:44 PM
On the second paragraph, does it matter to us in masters swimming? It might be possible to have a positive or negative residual impact. I am willing to let it go in masters swimming.

I am, too, personally. Even if my theory is 100% correct, many other confounding factors affect performance, and some of them are probably a lot more important than any positive or negative residual impact from youthful doping. But I can see easily how someone else could feel otherwise.

coachvlad
April 21st, 2009, 04:47 PM
As for the residual effects of a doper 15-20 years later, I would imagine those would be more of the negative side effects rather than performance enhancing.

Really interesting to read all this!
I'm just wondering...do people really think that using those anabolic steroids or any other staff will help you to swim faster? What about your liver? Kidneys? All your body???
15-20 years later person would look like a prune!!!

ehoch
April 21st, 2009, 05:35 PM
Just when I say to myself - I will not post any more on this subject, I see something new that just gets me.


I'm just wondering...do people really think that using those anabolic steroids or any other staff will help you to swim faster? What about your liver? Kidneys? All your body???
15-20 years later person would look like a prune!!!




Vladimir Salnikov is a great guy (I know him personally)...he was my hero when I was little!!! He is still involved with All-Russian Swimming Federation (he is the Vice President).

I think it worked ok for him -- does he look like a prune now ? I know a lot of the East-German guys - they are all doing fine now (the women is another story).

Does it work -- I saw a couple of the East-German swimmers in a training camp around 1990 - they were about my speed in meets. I was a good workout swimmer and they did repeats and sets, that I could never even dream about - of course it works - that's why they do it.

The Fortress
April 21st, 2009, 05:46 PM
Do people really think that using those anabolic steroids or any other stuff will help you to swim faster?

Someone forgot we are typically cynical, not naive ... Although not a great deal of cynicism is required to realize that this statement is nonsense.

BillS
April 21st, 2009, 07:22 PM
I think it is probably easier for folks like me, who never competed at a high level, to forgive and move on. Forgiveness seems justifiably harder to come by for folks like ehoch, who competed at the highest levels. I can understand how losing a medal, a team spot, or an important race to someone who used banned substances -- or even just seeing a sport you are consumed by sullied by doping -- can leave a bitter aftertaste.

But I have nothing but respect for you both for being willing to come here and discuss these difficult issues.

Paul Smith
April 21st, 2009, 07:49 PM
Really interesting to read all this!
I'm just wondering...do people really think that using those anabolic steroids or any other staff will help you to swim faster? What about your liver? Kidneys? All your body???

Ask Jessica Hardy

Ask an athlete from China
"LE JINGYI, FORMER CHINESE SWIMMER (translated): I think if an athlete does not fail a doping test then he does not take any drugs. If an athlete fails a doping test then it has been proved by facts that he has taken drugs, it is as simple as that."

Or

"Greek swimmer tests positive for banned steroid
Drymonakos ranks 2nd in world in 200-metre butterfly, holds European record in event"

Or

"SA swimmer tests positive

April 02 2008 at 08:20PM

Northern Tigers swim star Keri-Leigh Shaw has been provisionally suspended from competition effective from Tuesday, April 1 following a positive drugs test during the Fina Swimming World Cup in Belo Horizonte in Brazil on November 25 last year."

Or

"April 1, 2009 Wednesday 12:56 PM (Central European Time)

GENERAL NEWS

Czech swimmer tests positive for steroid abuse

Prague April 1 (CTK)
Czech swimmer Sabina Dostalova tested positive for steroid abuse during the February winter national swimming championship and may be imposed a two-year ban, Czech Swimming Sports sports director Jan Novotny told CTK today."

Or

"Last update - 00:16 20/07/2008

Israeli Olympic swimming qualifier tests positive for steroids

By The Associated Press

Tags: israel, max jaben

Israeli Olympic swimming qualifier Max Jaben has tested positive for the anabolic steroid boldenone in two samples, the Israel Swimming Association said in a statement issued Saturday night, putting his chances of participating in the 2008 Beijing games in serious jeopardy."

pwolf66
April 21st, 2009, 08:57 PM
I'm just wondering...do people really think that using those anabolic steroids or any other staff will help you to swim faster?

I find this above rationalization difficult to comprehend. Steroids have been proven to enable the human body to engage in higher levels of physical exertion for longer and to allow the human body to recover faster. Not sure how that wouldn't help with regards to swimming.

And in most cases, it's the continued and excessive use of steroids that leads to health, appearance, emotional and other issues.

Warren
April 21st, 2009, 09:36 PM
Really interesting to read all this!
I'm just wondering...do people really think that using those anabolic steroids or any other staff will help you to swim faster? What about your liver? Kidneys? All your body???
15-20 years later person would look like a prune!!!


Yes, people really think that using thoes anabolic steroids will help you swim faster.

To get a good perspective of what everyone thinks, you should make a poll on here asking that question.

Fresnoid
April 22nd, 2009, 12:44 AM
Really interesting to read all this!
I'm just wondering...do people really think that using those anabolic steroids or any other staff will help you to swim faster?

Wow, the delusional bluster of even attempting that statement really diminishes the credibility of your previous denials.

aloha
April 22nd, 2009, 02:35 AM
would you guys leave Vlad alone. its in the past. history. now we are in the world of masters swimming. laid back, easy goin. who cares. so he cheated....alegdedly, so did the ding bat most of you most likely voted for president back in november. THIS JUST IN.....90% of the humans on this planet are liars, cheaters, thieves, greedy selfish bastards. if Vlad did indeed dope, i dont care. i met the dude at Standford and he is alright in my book. ive met ehoch and he is a bit better than ok in my book. live and let live. me thinks roids should be legal anyway....why you ask? cuz everybody is doping and cheating anyway, its OVER. arod, bonds, mcguire, sosa, ben johnson, marion jones, 99% of cyclists, that swimmer chick, blah blah blah....theyve already ruined it, open the flood gates. at all your ages youd think youd have gotten it by now, the whole world is tainted by liars and cheaters, crooked politicians, dopers, greedy lawyers, judges, cops on the take, etc...................

we'll all be dead soon so who cares

my .02

aquageek
April 22nd, 2009, 06:22 AM
90% of the humans on this planet are liars, cheaters, thieves, greedy selfish bastards.

And, 10% aren't and that's a whole lot of people.

The Fortress
April 22nd, 2009, 09:42 AM
i met the dude at Standford and he is alright in my book. ive met ehoch and he is a bit better than ok in my book.

At least we're not dumb enough to be star struck simply upon meeting a "celebrity" swimmer ...

It took me about 2 years to decide that Geek was in the 10%. lol

Tim L
April 22nd, 2009, 10:06 AM
would you guys leave Vlad alone. its in the past. history. now we are in the world of masters swimming. laid back, easy goin. who cares. so he cheated....alegdedly, so did the ding bat most of you most likely voted for president back in november. THIS JUST IN.....90% of the humans on this planet are liars, cheaters, thieves, greedy selfish bastards. if Vlad did indeed dope, i dont care. i met the dude at Standford and he is alright in my book. ive met ehoch and he is a bit better than ok in my book. live and let live. me thinks roids should be legal anyway....why you ask? cuz everybody is doping and cheating anyway, its OVER. arod, bonds, mcguire, sosa, ben johnson, marion jones, 99% of cyclists, that swimmer chick, blah blah blah....theyve already ruined it, open the flood gates. at all your ages youd think youd have gotten it by now, the whole world is tainted by liars and cheaters, crooked politicians, dopers, greedy lawyers, judges, cops on the take, etc...................

we'll all be dead soon so who cares

my .02

We are cynical, but not that cynical. Reverse your percentages and you might be in the right ballpark. I am tired of lowering our standards because a minority of people can't live up to them.

Also, "allegedly"? I believe it was a positive test and the appeal failed. Sure, there is a chance that it was all a big mistake and he had bad counsel, etc., but there is a process to it and he didn't prevail.

I am all for foregiveness and Vlad seems like a real nice guy and this is just masters swimming, but if foregiveness means anarchy for sports in the future, then count me out. Essentially in your world you would have to make a decision maybe at a very young age to take steriods or other PEDs which may have a long-term health impact just so you can compete at a national/international level. That is going down the wrong road.

Tim

lefty
April 22nd, 2009, 12:28 PM
would you guys leave Vlad alone. its in the past. history. now we are in the world of masters swimming. laid back, easy goin. who cares. so he cheated....alegdedly, so did the ding bat most of you most likely voted for president back in november. THIS JUST IN.....90% of the humans on this planet are liars, cheaters, thieves, greedy selfish bastards. if Vlad did indeed dope, i dont care. i met the dude at Standford and he is alright in my book. ive met ehoch and he is a bit better than ok in my book. live and let live. me thinks roids should be legal anyway....why you ask? cuz everybody is doping and cheating anyway, its OVER. arod, bonds, mcguire, sosa, ben johnson, marion jones, 99% of cyclists, that swimmer chick, blah blah blah....theyve already ruined it, open the flood gates. at all your ages youd think youd have gotten it by now, the whole world is tainted by liars and cheaters, crooked politicians, dopers, greedy lawyers, judges, cops on the take, etc...................

we'll all be dead soon so who cares

my .02


I laughed out loud when I read this. There is a semblance of a moral construct here, it seems to be based on the believe that the sky is falling. The punctuation really brings the point home. Who needs grammar when we'll all be dead? Thanks, aloha, really you have made my day.

Mswimming
April 22nd, 2009, 12:41 PM
I laughed out loud when I read this. There is a semblance of a moral construct here, it seems to be based on the believe that the sky is falling. The punctuation really brings the point home. Who needs grammar when we'll all be dead? Thanks, aloha, really you have made my day.


This was an interesting thread. Why does everyone have to be an internet tough guy? I don't get it? It ruins every thread.

Ehoch's link about the Soviet union in the olympics article was very interesting. Well worth coming to see this thread. I was hoping Vlad would post a little bit about what he experienced.

lefty
April 22nd, 2009, 12:59 PM
This was an interesting thread. Why does everyone have to be an internet tough guy? I don't get it? It ruins every thread.

Ehoch's link about the Soviet union in the olympics article was very interesting. Well worth coming to see this thread. I was hoping Vlad would post a little bit about what he experienced.


You misunderstood my post;it was (meant to be) comedic.

Animal
April 22nd, 2009, 03:52 PM
The use of PED by master swimmers, runners, trialthetes is just plain stupid. What are they trying to prove, that they are young again? I like the aging process and the fight against it by training smarter.Adding a mix of PEDs seems a bit over the top for a bunch of people who should be out to have fun.

aquageek
April 22nd, 2009, 03:59 PM
The use of PED by master swimmers, runners, trialthetes is just plain stupid. What are they trying to prove, that they are young again? I like the aging process and the fight against it by training smarter.Adding a mix of PEDs seems a bit over the top for a bunch of people who should be out to have fun.

I was previously of this mentality as well until I threw back a big can of Full Throttle energy drink.

Karen Duggan
April 22nd, 2009, 04:37 PM
Wow, intense thread.
There is no doubt in my mind that there are Masters swimmers who are doping. This was addressed a couple of years ago in another thread when someone suggested that Masters swimmers be tested.

As to aloha's comment. I too think you are backwards. Thankfully, 90% are not liars, cheaters, and thieves. At least not to the degree that will be the downfall of our society. Now excuse me, I need to go hide my syringes in the toilet (so my two-headed baby doesn't accidentally poke himself).
:lmao:

mattson
April 22nd, 2009, 05:06 PM
ive met ehoch and he is a bit better than ok in my book.

Yeah, but I've heard that ehoch likes to hang around with dopers. If he is friends with that crowd, can you really trust him? :afraid:


I know a lot of the East-German guys - they are all doing fine now

jim clemmons
April 22nd, 2009, 06:01 PM
I was previously of this mentality as well until I threw back a big can of Full Throttle energy drink.

See? I told you so...

Try it around 1:30/2:00pm along with a cup of swim meet coffee that's been reducing for about 4 hours. And have everyone stand back! :bliss:

ehoch
April 22nd, 2009, 06:59 PM
Yeah, but I've heard that ehoch likes to hang around with dopers.

I know how challenging it can be to read anything outside of sports and comics in the paper to keep up on world events- so here is a little help.


German Reunification
The German reunification started in the summer of 1989, when Hungary decided (May 2) to dismantle the Iron Curtain and open the borders (August 23), causing an exodus of thousands of East Germans (September 11) going to West Germany.

The political crisis that followed the Hungarian events, lead to GDR's first free elections on March 18, 1990 and to the negotiations between the GDR and FRG culminated in a Unification Treaty[1]. The united Germany remained a member of the European Community (later the European Union) and of NATO.


There is debate as to whether the events of 1990 should be properly referred to as a "reunification" or a "unification". Proponents of the former use the term in contrast with the initial unification of Germany in 1871. Popular parlance, which uses "reunification", is deeply affected by the 1989 opening of the Berlin Wall (and the rest of the inner German border) and the physical reunification of the city of Berlin (itself divided only since 1945). Others, however, argue that 1990 represented a "unification" of two German states into a larger entity which, in its resulting form, had never before existed (see History of Germany).

For political and diplomatic reasons, West German politicians carefully avoided the term "reunification" during the run-up to what Germans frequently refer to as die Wende. The official[1] and most common term in German is "Deutsche Einheit" (in English "German unity"). German unity is the term that Hans-Dietrich Genscher used in front of international journalists to correct them when they asked him about "reunification" in 1990.

After 1990, the term "die Wende" became more common. The term generally refers to the events (mostly in Eastern Europe) that led up to the actual reunification; in its usual context, this term loosely translates to "the turning point", without any further meaning. When referring to the events surrounding unification, however, it carries the cultural connotation of the time and the events in the GDR that brought about this "turnaround" in German history.

Police officers of the East German Volkspolizei wait for the official opening of the Brandenburg Gate on 22 December 1989.Germany was officially united at 00:00 CET on 3 October 1990, when the five re-established federal states (Bundesländer) of East Germany – Brandenburg, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, Saxony, Saxony-Anhalt, Thuringia – formally joined the Federal Republic of Germany, along with the city-state Berlin which formally came into being at the same time, created out of the still formally occupied West Berlin and East Berlin, and admitted to the federation. In practice however, West Berlin had already acted as an 11th state for most purposes, so Berlin is generally not included in the list of "New Länder".

The process chosen was one of two options implemented in the West German constitution (Grundgesetz). As these five newly-founded German states formally joined the Federal Republic in accordance with (the then-existing) Article 23, the area in which the constitution served as the constitution was simply extended to include them. The alternative would have been for East Germany to join as a whole along the lines of a formal union between two German states that then would have had to, amongst other things, create a new constitution for the newly established country.

To facilitate this process and to reassure other countries, some changes were made to the "Basic Law" (constitution). Article 146 was amended so that Article 23 of the current constitution could be used for reunification. After the five "New Länder" of East Germany had joined, the constitution was amended again to indicate that all parts of Germany are now unified. Article 23 was rewritten as keeping it could be understood as an invitation to e.g. Austria to join. However, the constitution can be amended again at some future date and it still permits the adoption of another constitution by the German people at some time in the future.

On 18 May 1990, the two German states signed a treaty agreeing on Monetary, Economic and Social Union. This came into force on 1 July 1990, with the Deutsche Mark replacing the East German mark as the official currency of East Germany.

On 14 November 1990, the German government signed a treaty with Poland, finalising Germany's boundaries as permanent along the Oder-Neisse line, and thus, renouncing any claims to Silesia, East Brandenburg, Farther Pomerania, Gdańsk (Danzig), and territories of the former province of East Prussia. The following month, the first all-German free elections since 1932 were held, resulting in an increased majority for the coalition government of Chancellor Helmut Kohl.

KEWebb18
April 22nd, 2009, 07:59 PM
Wow I never thought that by reading a thread about an impressive time that I would learn anything about the events surrounding the changing political environment in Germany.I am thankful that I never had to experience such political turmoil. Thank you ehoch for educating me...

aloha
April 22nd, 2009, 08:08 PM
my apologies folks

i had a few too many Hinanos last night

CAZ99
April 23rd, 2009, 12:28 AM
Well, I have something to say on the matter of HGH. It is the fountain of YOUTH! THE BEST THING EVER! And yes, i know of this first hand.
Last Feb 21st, I was in a bad motorcycle accident in which i broke both legs (multiple fractures both legs) my back, my scapula (in half) right acromium process. After three back to back to back surgeries, my doctor told and prescribed to me HGH. During my MONTHS of rehabbing my different body parts just to normal, i began the process of rebuilding. This is when i used the HGH. First i started by wheeling myself to the edge of the pool and falling in (i was in wheelchair 7 weeks, thats it). i began to walk in shoulder high water because my legs could not take the weight. Eventually i worked my way to walking etc. Without the HGH, i would still be in PT and working on getting back to normal. Because of it, My body changed for the better all the way around, skin, organs, tendons and ligaments, vision, hair, nails EVERYTHING!
I am sure if i took HGH while in peak condition, it would have a huge ramifications. But after what it did for me and my health, i dont give a :censor: about anybody's thoughts that i am doping! Its not doping if you are doing it for health reasons, some may have ligit issues and take certain medications for a REASON! This is masters, like one member said " its chill and laid back' i agree. Keep the Olympics clean, let everyone else do as they wish! WHO CARES if anyone else does it? and WHY? I can see in Olympic comp, but not here.
IT WAS THE BEST THING FOR ME AND MY OVERALL WELL BEING! it should be embraced. It will do so much good for you ALL. And i promise you, I will use it again.
God Bless and best of luck to everyone in NATs!
Greg

ps. its a big part of me competing this weekend in MV! See you there.:cane:
pss. i dont know of anyones past doping allegations and convictions, wasnt trying to approve or condone anyones thoughts or feelings. Just giving input on my experience.

Maui Mike
April 23rd, 2009, 01:58 AM
This was an interesting thread. Why does everyone have to be an internet tough guy? I don't get it? It ruins every thread.

Ehoch's link about the Soviet union in the olympics article was very interesting. Well worth coming to see this thread. I was hoping Vlad would post a little bit about what he experienced.

Count me in on that -- I'd love to hear some personal stories from Vlad, or from any of you for that matter.

Maui Mike
April 23rd, 2009, 02:02 AM
And CAZ99, thanks for your story.

CreamPuff
April 23rd, 2009, 09:45 AM
CAZ99, I'm thrilled for you. Glad you recovered so well. Thanks for sharing.

I still laugh at the thought of anyone doping in masters. The recognition at least for me is about on par with nil. The best exchange I had was in a bar when my husband mentioned some of my swimming accomplishments to some of the patrons/ our friends (who were drunk and happy might I add) and the response was, "Oh yeah? I did ALTA as a kid." And my true fave, "Watch out for her. She'll kick your ass." :bitching: Going back to no weights pronto.

Not really an ego feed IMO. I've gotten more praise for my clogging ability.

So if you need to dope for that along with the $0 endorsements, go for it. I think doping is the least of your problems.

mattson
April 23rd, 2009, 12:40 PM
I know how challenging it can be to read anything outside of sports and comics in the paper to keep up on world events- so here is a little help.

About as challenging as seeing a "smilie" icon after a comment, and not realizing that means teasing/joking. :doh:

smontanaro
April 23rd, 2009, 10:07 PM
FYI - YouTube - Terry & Vlad 100 yard free.